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ELGIN ENGLISH CRULL

The testimony of Elgin English Crull was taken at 1:40 p.m., on July 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of City Manager Elgin E. Crull. Mr. Crull, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission.
Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mr. Crull, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.
Now I understand, sir, that you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter requesting you to do so, addressed by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission, is that correct?
Mr. CRULL. That's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive that, sir?
Mr. CRULL. I would have to guess. He didn't stamp it. The letter is dated July the 8th.
Mr. HUBERT. Sometime last week?
Mr. CRULL. I received it about last Thursday.
Mr. HUBERT. That would be July 9?
Mr. CRULL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, would you stand and raise your fight hand, please? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. CRULL. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you state your full name?
Mr. CRULL. My name is Elgin English Crull.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, sir?

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Mr. CRULL. Dallas, Tex., at 9424 Hobart.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your office?
Mr. CRULL City manager, city of Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you held that position?
Mr. CRULL. For 12 years.
Mr. HUBERT. How old a man are you, sir?
Mr. CRULL. I am 55. I shall be 56 on the 17th of this month.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you a native of Texas?
Mr. CRULL. No; I am a native of Louisville, Ky.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you had previous experience in the field of city management?
Mr. CRULL. I have been in the city of Dallas for 25 years.
Mr. HUBERT. In what capacity, prior to becoming city manager?
Mr. CRULL. As an assistant.
Mr. HUBERT. Assistant city manager?
Mr. CRULL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now Mr. Crull, we would like you to state, first of all, for the record, what are the duties and responsibilities, and so forth, of the City manager of the city of Dallas, the position which you have held and been associated with for some 25 years.
Mr. CRULL. The city manager, under the Dallas Charter, is the chief administrator of the city government, being charged with the overall supervision of most of the departments of the government. There are a few exceptions. Being charged with the financial control and the operation of the budget, and the operation of the different departments.
The city manager is charged with the responsibility of appointing and removing department heads, and assistant department heads, the balance of the organization being under civil service.
He is the responsible official to the city council, which is the policymaking body.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you appoint Chief Jesse E. Curry to his position?
Mr. CRULL. I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a political appointment, or just how was it made?
Mr. CRULL. We don't have any political appointments. We are a council-manager government. We have no political parties as such. The national parties take no activity in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. If you make an appointment, does the mayor or the city council have anything to do with it by way of suggestion or rejection?
Mr. CRULL. No, sir; the responsibility for the appointment and for the performance of the appointee is with the city manager. The council does set salaries for all appointees.
Mr. HUBERT. It is possible, I suppose then, for the city council to veto your appointment by not appropriating the money for the salary, is that possible?
Mr. CRULL. It is possible. It hasn't happened in 30 years.
Mr. HUBERT. The selection of Chief Curry was your own selection?
Mr. CRULL. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. I take it from what you have said then, it was based upon merit?
Mr. CRULL. In my opinion; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you explain just what is the ordinary effect of your relationship with your department heads, including and particularly the head of the police department insofar as the administration and policies of the police department are concerned?
Mr. CRULL. The general administration is left to the chief and his staff. They are trained. The administrative polices, the general personnel regulations, and things of that nature first come out of our office to the department, and then are followed by the different departments. We do check through the budget office on any deviation in policies. Department heads request changes in policies, purchasing, financing, personnel, and operating.
In addition to that, the chief, since a police department is a delicate operation with a particularly difficult public relations problem, would discuss things which might have a particular public application so far as public acceptance.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it within your power to overrule any decision or action taken by the police department or the head thereof?

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Mr. CRULL. Not any action. It would be within my power to overrule on a policy matter and on administrative matters, but of course not those things which were covered by law. Do I make myself clear?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; but except for those duties and functions of the police department that are established by law, you would have the authority to direct the chief to do or not to do any action that you thought?
Mr. CRULL. That's right, any department head.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Crull, I have previously handed you a document consisting of three pages, which is a report of an interview of you by FBI Agents Calvin Rice and John J. Flanagan, dated December 12, 1963, which for the purpose of identification I have marked on the first page in the right-hand margin thereof as follows:
"Dallas, Texas, July 14, 1964, Exhibit 1, deposition of Elgin Crull." I have signed my name below that, and on the second and third page I have placed my initials in the lower right-hand corner of each of those pages.
I think you have had an opportunity to read that document, and I will now ask you if that document is correct as to the nature and effect stated in the course of that interview, and whether it reflects the facts as you remember them?
Mr. CRULL. In general, it does, but there are some details which are inaccurate.
Mr. HUBERT. Now with respect to the details, I notice that you have marked on the very last line of the second paragraph on page 1, a little mark indicating that you wish to comment on that last line. Would you state what you wish to say about it, please, sir?
Mr. CRULL. I believe that says simply that I went to the lake, to a cabin. The only change is that there is no cabin. I have a boat on the lake.
Mr. HUBERT. Other than that?
Mr. CRULL. Other than that, it is accurate.
Mr. HUBERT. Now in the next paragraph, which is the third paragraph on page 1, you have put a little mark next to the statement that you heard over the radio of Oswald having been shot.
Mr. CRULL I did not hear it over the radio. I was called by the operator of the marina, or one of his people, I do not remember which, who had heard it over the radio.
Mr. HUBERT. Now on the next paragraph on page 1, that is to say, paragraph 4, you marked next to the fifth line and also next to the sixth, seventh, and eighth lines of that paragraph; first of all, with reference to the statement that you had selected the prior chief of police. That is to say, the chief of police prior to to Chief Curry. Do you have any comments to make about that?
Mr. CRULL. Yes; I didn't select Chief Curry's predecessor. He was selected by my predecessor or one of my predecessors.
Mr. HUBERT. The chief of police who was in office prior to Chief Curry was in that office when you became the city manager?
Mr. CRULL. That's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. You kept him on?
Mr. CRULL That's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Or perhaps it was thought that that was an appointment of him? But nevertheless, we have a clarification on that.
Now that sentence continues and reads as follows: That you never interfered with the operations of the police department, leaving it entirely in the chiefs hands, as he did with other city departments. I think you indicated you wished to address yourself to that thought?
Mr. CRULL. I think perhaps that gives the wrong impression, that departments and department heads operate entirely on their own without any supervision at all.
Our department heads are experienced, and they do operate with a great deal of freedom, but not without control and not without consultation with the central office or manager's office.
Mr. HUBERT. Now turning to the second page in the last paragraph, eight lines from the bottom of the page, there is a reference to an individual in the report who quotes you as saying he was a yellow-sheet journalist. I think you wanted to comment on that?

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Mr. CRULL I think that phrase should be stricken, because it is not my phrase. I don't recall it, and it is not one I would use normally. I think someone has attempted to portray what I thought of the individual, has injected his phrase.
Mr. HUBERT. I guess to get the story complete, since you wish to delete the specific phrase, it might be a good idea for you to tell us what was your impression of him, in your own words.
Mr. CRULL. The publisher of this local newspaper is careless with facts, and is inclined toward the sensational. And quite frankly, says he does it deliberately in order to sell newspapers.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice that a little further down in this same paragraph there is a statement attributed to you by virtue of the fact that it in direct quotes says as follows: "I can't sell newspapers by telling the truth." Which according to this report, the FBI says you stated with regard to that interview.
Mr. CRULL. That is accurate.
Mr. HUBERT. Now I see no other marks indicating that you wish to comment upon any other part of Exhibit No. 1, so is it a fact then, that other than the corrections that have been made, it is your opinion that Exhibit No. I represents a true and faithful record of the interview?
Mr. CRULL. With the exceptions, I think it is accurate.
Mr. HUBERT. Now while we were on the subject of this statement which had appeared in the Oak Cliff Tribune with reference to the pressure being brought upon Chief Curry in regard to his relationship with the press, I would like for you, if you wish, to comment upon what role you played with reference to the
matter of control of the press and the whole situation involving the press?
Mr. CRULL. I need some explanation. Over what period of time?
Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about the period of time from November the 22d, after the President was shot, until the 24th or 25th of November.
Mr. CRULL. After the President was shot, for quite some time I was at the control station at the site of the luncheon. When I finally returned to the city hall, I believed I reached there before the chief did--I went to my own office, and I can't say how long, later went across to the police department, which is in an adjoining building.
Mr. HUBERT. But there is a corridor?
Mr. CRULL. Yes; at that time the press had almost taken over. These were the visiting press. Our local press had been pushed off to one side, and the visitors who had made the trip here with the press, plus the television people, had flooded the third-floor corridors.
The chief's office---the television people had opened the switchboard on the corridor and their technicians had attached their equipment to the electrical system, ,and they were pretty well set up. I do not know, ,but I assume that all this happened while all the top men in the department .were out on the job. There was no reason for top-level people being in the police department headquarters during the time of the Kennedy visit. They each had other assignments.
Mr. HUBERT. When you went there and saw the condition you just described, what time was it, about?
Mr. CRULL. I guess I would say it was about 3:30 in the afternoon.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any of the top officers of the police department there on the third floor when you arrived?
Mr. CRULL. I can't remember specifically. Later that afternoon, I talked to Chief Curry when he did return.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did that conversation take place?
Mr. CRULL. In his office in the police department.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after your return?
Mr. CRULL. I guess this was 30 or 40 minutes. About 4 o'clock in the afternoon.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you left the building and gone back?
Mr. CRULL I had gone back to my office and come. back again. He had been to the airport with the President's body.. At that time Chief Curry discussed the condition of things with the press, and I agreed with him that we would continue our policy of trying to cooperate with the press.

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Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a formal meeting with the press, or how did that take place?
Mr. CRULL. No; but they were the offices are small, and the corridor is not too big, and when you move that many television men and cameras and newspaper reporters into the corridor and into the offices, there was practically no space for anybody to work.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, what I was thinking about was where this conference that you mentioned took place which apparently you witnessed between Curry and members of the press?
Mr. CRULL. No; I gave you the wrong impression. It was a conference between me and the chief, and Chief Batchelor, his assistant.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of that conference?
Mr. CRULL. The general situation. This was the first time I had had a chance to talk to Chief Curry, since he had left to go to the hospital after the President was killed, and we looked at the situation, and I agreed with the chief that we would continue to try to cooperate with the press, that there would have to be some order brought into the situation, but that it was important that the police department not be put in a position in which later people could charge that this man had been beaten, and had been kept under cover, and not been allowed to see him.
Mr. HUBERT. Was any consideration given to moving the press out completely?
Mr. CRULL. No; this could have been an alternative, but we did not consider it.
Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned that there was some discussion about controlling the situation?
Mr. CRULL. We had to get them out of the offices and pushed back out into the corridor so people could work. They flooded into the chief's office and the surrounding offices too.
Mr. HUBERT. They had been in the offices of the various divisions?
Mr. CRULL. No; at the end of that particular corridor are the top administrative offices, the office of the chief, the assistant chief, and the deputy chief, the four deputy chiefs, and his clerical help, and that is the office into which they had largely flooded.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Oswald in custody on the third floor at that time?
Mr. CRULL. He was--this is hearsay--I understand in custody in the homicide bureau at the other end of the hall on the same floor.
Mr. HUBERT. Was any consideration given as to the effect of the congregation of the press in that area?
Mr. CRULL The press was not being allowed to go beyond the midpoint in the building.
Mr. HUBERT. How was that controlled?
Mr. CRULL. There were officers there. The homicide bureau was north of the midpoint in the bureau, and there was at that time and most of the time, I understand--again I am relying on hearsay--that that part of the corridor was kept comparatively free.
Now I was there at one time, and I can't say when, when they moved Oswald from homicide back up to the jail, I believe. At that time he was brought out through the corridor and did walk with the detectives holding him through the press, which was, or part of the press.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to any members of the press or otherwise gain any impression as to their attitude about what their fights were, and so forth?
Mr. CRULL. I gained an impression from talking to some of the local news-papermen who came up to me and said, "Please don't blame us for what is going on. We don't act this way."
Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us something about what those actions were that the local press seemed to be apoligizing for?
Mr. CRULL. This is something I don't know of my own knowledge at all.
Mr. HUBERT. I was thinking of what you yourself observed.
Mr. CRULL. Crowding, pushing, and attempting to take over. The free and easy use of the electrical system, which I think I noticed that most.
Mr. HUBERT. What was some example of that?
Mr. CRULL. I didn't check the details, but the switchboxes had been opened and the technicians pretty obviously had hooked on any place they could find a wire which would support the use.

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Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if any fuses were blown?
Mr. CRULL. I was told that there were.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss with Chief Curry or any of the top officials of the police department the problem of the safety of the prisoner?
Mr. CRULL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss with them the problem of the matter of the ultimate transfer of the prisoner to the county jail when and if he were charged?
Mr. CRULL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave the police department quarters on the 22d?
Mr. CRULL. On Saturday?
Mr. HUBERT. I was thinking on Friday after this conference thing.
Mr. CRULL. I am sorry, I can't be too accurate. I imagine I finally left the city hall and periodically I checked back with the police department either by telephone or actually by walking over there. I imagine it was about 7 o'clock before we left and went home.
Mr. HUBERT. You think that in the interval before 7 o'clock, between that conference you just described and 7 o'clock, that you contacted the top officials of the police department either by walking over again or by telephone?
Mr. CRULL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was any further discussion had about the condition of the news media?
Mr. CRULL. No; the only thing I was interested in most then, of course as everyone else, was the progress being made with Oswald making the case. I was pretty well snowed in my own office by telegrams, telephone calls, and things which had come in in great numbers.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you went home about 7 o'clock?
Mr. CRULL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you return to the municipal building or police department any more that night?
Mr. CRULL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any further communication with them the night of the 22d?
Mr. CRULL. I have to keep this straight by days of the week.
Mr. HUBERT. This is Friday the 22d.
Mr. CRULL. This is the day of the President's death?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CRULL. No; before I left the police department the last time, they told me they thought the case was pretty well wrapped up, and that there would be no particular new developments, so after I left that night, I went home that night, and the following morning I went to the lake, Saturday morning.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time did you go to the lake?
Mr. CRULL. About 10 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not then go back to the police department?
Mr. CRULL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. So that after 7 o'clock, on Friday, you didn't have any occasion to observe the conditions in the city hall at all?
Mr. CRULL. No; not till Sunday.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any communication with the police department after you got to the lake?
Mr. CRULL. Not until Sunday morning.
Mr. HUBERT. At what time did you have communication, and in what way on Sunday morning?
Mr. CRULL. On Sunday morning, the specific time I can't say. A member of the marina staff called me, and said that the radio said that Oswald had been shot. So I went to the marina office and used the telephone to call Dallas. I was calling from the marina, Lake Texoma, just out of Denison, Tex. I did call the office and I talked with Chief Stevenson, and he told me, his words were, "I guess you have heard that we have lost our prisoner."
Then he told me something of the details, although it was then confused.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Oswald dead then, or did he tell you so?
Mr. CRULL They didn't know at that time. I was talking to them at the police department, and Oswald had been moved to Parkland Hospital.

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Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time it was?
Mr. CRULL. No; I can't say. I waited at Texoma then, a short time, until my wife came back to the lake. She had been in to Denison to church, and shortly after noon we came back to Dallas. I came to the city hall after changing my clothes at home, to the police department and talked to our mayor then and found that he had received some telephone threats, and that the police had a guard on him, that he wanted to go to Washington for the President's funeral, and that there was some concern about it. So I left the city hall and went to the home of the mayor, discussed his trip with him, decided on my own that he should have protection all the way, called Chief Curry, and suggested that he assign Lieutenant Revill, who was the head of the chief intelligence section, to make the trip to Washington with Mayor Cabell.
Over the telephone the chief did this, and I waited at the mayor's home until Revill went to his house and collected his clothes. Then, in a squad car, I went to the airport to see the mayor off on the airplane.
Mr. HUBERT. What time was that, about?
Mr. CRULL. Between 5:30 and 6 o'clock, something in that area. It was still daylight.
Mr. HUBERT. That was on Sunday, the 24th?
Mr. CRULL. That's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you informed by anyone of any fears that existed concerning the safety of Oswald?
Mr. CRULL. I didn't hear this report until several days later that there had been some.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already stated that in your discussions with the head of the chief of police, the head of the police department on Friday afternoon between 4 and 7, that there had not been discussed or mentioned any fear concerning his safety, is that right?
Mr. CRULL. That's correct. The concern expressed was that with the whole world looking on, the thing be kept in the open as much as it could be, with a reasonable degree of security. Quarterbacking the game on Monday, apparently we were stressing the wrong point.
Mr. HUBERT. Apparently from the last part of your answer there, you mentioned that since the whole world was looking on, the press should be given as much freedom as possible? I think you mentioned consistent with security, or something of that sort?
Mr. CRULL Consistent with the safety of the prisoner; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, is it fair to say then that the actual safety of the prisoner was a matter of discussion?
Mr. CRULL. No; I don't think it would be accurate to say that it was a matter of discussion. It was mentioned, but I doubt very seriously that the staff of personnel was very concerned about it, because he was at that time safely in the homicide bureau surrounded by detectives.
Mr. HUBERT. But you say it was mentioned, the safety of the prisoner?
Mr. CRULL. I think so; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember by whom?
Mr. CRULL. No; I don't remember exactly.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already said, too, that there was no discussion of the method of transfer or the danger or perils that might exist for the safety of the prisoner when that would come about?
Mr. CRULL. The method of transfer I did not discuss at all at the time.
Mr. HUBERT. And of course since you left on Saturday morning and did not communicate or have any communication with the police until after the shooting of Oswald, you knew nothing about any developments or about any threats, and so forth, that had been made to him?
Mr. CRULL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Nor did you know what plans for transfer had been developed and were prepared to be carried out?
Mr. CRULL. No; quite frankly, I think this belongs in it. I never thought seriously of the prisoner being killed. I don't know whether others did or not, but I was concerned primarily with the case being wrapped up, and solid, so that there would be no question about who killed the President.

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Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; there is one statement I have noticed in the FBI report identified as Exhibit No. 1, on page 2, that I would like, if you would, to clarify, because it is not really clear to me. It is the third sentence in the last paragraph on the second page reading as follows, to wit: "He--that is you--stated on November 25 he issued instructions to his subordinates and to Chief Curry and the police department to make no comments concerning these matters. Insofar as he knows these instructions have been followed." I would just like to get a clarification of what you had in mind. It is not clear to me.
Mr. CRULL. This may be inaccurate in my timing. This came immediately after the shooting of Oswald and the delivery of Ruby to the county jail. A problem for the district attorney's office, and for the Commission, and at that time the press had announced that President Johnson had announced that he would name such a Commission. He had actually named Chief Justice Warren to head it I am not certain.
And my instructions were that no police officer make any comment, that no evidence be released by any police officer, that it would all be turned over to the district attorney for his control, and I talked to the district attorney by telephone and told him my instructions. This was on Monday. Later, whether it was the same day or the following day, the district attorney told the chief of police that he preferred that that responsibility go to the--what is now known as the Warren Commission. I don't believe any member of the police department, but with one exception, has yet violated the instructions on statements.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Crull, as you know, there has been at least one statement to the effect that Chief Curry was "taking the wrap for higher-ups who insisted that Oswald be transferred in daylight hours in order to accommodate the press and other news media."
Do you know anything about that at all, sir?
Mr. CRULL. So far as I am concerned, the higher ups would have to be either the city manager or the mayor. So far as the city manager is concerned, Chief Curry was given no instructions whatsoever as to the transfer, and I feel quite confident that Mayor Cabell didn't.
For two reasons, One, he says he didn't, and the other, that under the charter, the city manager's responsibility for the chief of police and the mayor doesn't give direct orders. I think the statement is completely untrue.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of anything that would indicate that Mayor Cabell or any of the members of the council did exercise any kind of pressure whatsoever on Chief Curry?
Mr. CRULL. I know of nothing, and I feel certain that it didn't occur.
Mr. HUBERT. And you did not at all?
Mr. CRULL. That's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; is there anything else you would like to add?
Mr. CRULL. No; I guess not. Nearly all my knowledge is of course hearsay. I have no direct knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; then let me close the deposition with the usual question. Am I correct in stating that nothing has been discussed between us at any time since we first met, which was today, that has not become subsequently a part of this deposition by being reported?
Mr. CRULL. That's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. I certainly thank you, sir.
Mr. CRULL. Thank you.
Mr. HUBERT. Glad you came by.
 

MALCOLM O.

The testimony of Malcolm O. Couch was taken at 9:43 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Will you please rise and raise your right hand and be sworn, sir?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you're about to give will be the the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. COUCH. I do.
Mr. BELIN. Be seated, please.
Mr. BELIN. You are Malcolm O. Couch?
Mr. COUCH. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Couch, we are taking your deposition here in Dallas to record your testimony for the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy---is that correct?
Mr. COUCH. That's right, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Do you request that an attorney be present here to represent you?
Mr. COUCH. No.
Mr. BELIN. We have written you about the taking of this deposition and I assume that you have waived notice of the taking of the deposition-is that correct?
Mr. COUCH. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Couch, you have the right to look at the deposition and sign it, or you can follow the general custom and rely on the court reporter and waive the signing of the deposition---whatever you would like to do. If you would like to sign it, you can; if you want to waive signing it, you can also. Whatever you want to do.
Mr. COUCH. All right. I'll sign it.
Mr. BELIN. You want to sign it?
Mr. COUCH. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. COUCH, where do you live?
Mr. COUCH. 4215 Live Oak in Dallas.
Mr. BELIN. And how old are you?
Mr. COUCH. Twenty-five.
Mr. BELIN. And were you born in Texas?
Mr. COUCH. Yes; born in Dallas and raised in Dallas.
Mr. BELIN. And what is your educational background? Did you go through high school?
Mr. COUCH. I went to Woodrow Wilson High School here in Dallas, I have a Bachelor of Arts degree from John Brown University; and I will receive a Master of Theology degree this May from Dallas Seminary.
Mr. BELIN. You then plan, when you receive your Master of Theology degree, to become a minister?
Mr. COUCH. I will be ordained. I don't know if I will have a church or not, but I will be ordained.
Mr. BELIN. Are you married, Mr. Couch?
Mr. COUCH. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Any family at all?
Mr. COUCH. Yes; one boy---since last Friday.
Mr. BELIN. Since last Friday? Well, congratulations to you. I assume your wife and baby are doing well?
Mr. COUCH. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What did you major in at college?
Mr. COUCH. Social science.
Mr. BELIN. What is your present occupation, Mr. Couch?
Mr. COUCH. Part-time television news cameraman with WFAA-TV in Dallas.

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Mr. BELIN. When you say "part time," do you mean you're going to school part time---
Mr. COUCH. Right.
Mr. BELIN. And spending part time with WFAA-TV?
Mr. COUCH. Right.
Mr. BELIN. How long have you been employed by WFAA-TV?
Mr. COUCH. Uh--for 2 years straight. But I worked with them full and part time, I believe, back in---starting in 1955 to 1957.
Mr. BELIN. And then what happened in 1957?
Mr. COUCH. I went to college.
Mr. BELIN. You went to college full time?
Mr. COUCH. Right.
Mr. BELIN. And then you got out in 1961?
Mr. COUCH. I got out in January 1960.
Mr. BELIN. January 1960?
Mr. COUCH. Yes---and came back to Dallas and went into graduate school here.
Mr. BELIN. And when you came back to Dallas, you went to work with WFAA-TV?
Mr. COUCH. No; no. I began going to Dallas Seminary, but---uh---I worked for Keitz & Herndon Film Studios-[spelling] K-e-i-t-z and H-e-r-n-d-o-n.
Mr. BELIN. Have you had any other jobs since you've gotten out of college other than those?
Mr. COUCH. I worked a year for Camp Elhar, as executive director of the camp. It's a Christian camp here in Dallas.
Mr. BELIN. Is this for youngsters?
Mr. COUCH. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Boys and girls?
Mr. COUCH. Right.
Mr. BELIN. And when did that employment take place?
Mr. COUCH. Uh-I believe it was September 1961---and ended in September 1962. I started working for WFAA in March of 1962. And I've been there 2 years.
Mr. BELIN. In other words, part of the time while you were working with this camp, you were also part time with WFAA-TV?
Mr. COUCH. Right.
Mr. BELIN. And then when you started to work on your Masters in Theology, you stopped working?
Mr. COUCH. No. I started work on my Masters when I came back from college----
Mr. BELIN. Oh, I see.
Mr. COUCH. In January of 1960. It's a 4-year course.
Mr. BELIN. I see.
Mr. COUCH, I want to take you back to November 22, 1963, and ask you whether or not you were employed by WFAA-TV at that time?
Mr. COUCH. Yes; I was.
Mr. BELIN. In connection with your employment, what is the fact as to whether or not you had anything to do with the coverage of the visit of President Kennedy to Dallas?
Mr. COUCH. Yes; I did.
Mr. BELIN. Could you just state what your duties were and what you did that day?
Mr. COUCH. I was assigned to cover the arrival of the President at the airport and to ride in the motorcade through town and, then, to ride with the motorcade of the President back to the airport when he left.
Mr. BELIN. Now, when you were assigned, were you assigned as a reporter,
as a photographer, or in what capacity?
Mr. COUCH. As a photographer.
Mr. BELIN. Would this be moving picture film or still shots, or both?
Mr. COUCH. Moving only.
Mr. BELIN. Moving picture film only?

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Mr. COUCH. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Were you at Love Field in Dallas when the President arrived?
Mr. COUCH. That's right; uh-huh.
Mr. BELIN. Did you take moving pictures of him there?
Mr. COUCH. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got in the motorcade?
Mr. COUCH. Right; uh-huh.
Mr. BELIN. And the motorcade proceeded, first, from Love Field toward downtown Dallas--is that correct?
Mr. COUCH. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the route you took through downtown Dallas?
Mr. COUCH. Uh--roughly. It was out through the airport parkway to Mockingbird Lane to Lemmon, down Lemmon to Turtle Creek, down Turtle Creek to--uh--I'm not sure of those streets. I think McKinney or Cedar Springs. I'm not sure.
Mr. BELIN. Well, if you aren't particularly sure---okay. What about when you got downtown to the center of Dallas? Do you remember what streets you went on?
Mr. COUCH. Yes. Well, we came in on Harwood and then turned right on Main at the City Hall.
Mr. BELIN. And then you took Main to where?
Mr. COUCH. Main down to--uh--Houston.
Mr. BELIN. All right. You were heading, now, west on Main down to Houston?
Mr. COUCH. Right.
Mr. BELIN. About where in the motorcade was your car? Do you remember offhand?
Mr. COUCH Uh-uh---roughly---and I'm not sure---the fifth or sixth car back from the lead car. I'm not sure which one.
Mr. BELIN. Now, do you remember, as you approached Houston Street on Main about how fast the motorcade was going?
Mr. COUCH. I would estimate uh--20 miles an hour. The speed had picked up some. Everyone gave a sigh a relief that---uh---it was over; and one of the cameramen, I remember, his camera broke and another one was out of film. Everyone was relaxed. And--uh--of course, then we turned north on Houston, and it was there that we heard the first gunshot.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Before we get to the first gunshot--do you remember who was riding in the car with you?
Mr. COUCH. Uh-as best I can it was Jimmy Darnell--Channel 5; uh--Bob Jackson--Times Herald; Jim Underwood---KRLD-TV; and the fellow--uh--Mr. Dillard--Tom Dillard--Dallas Morning News. And the driver of the car; I don't know his name.
Mr. BELIN. Were you sitting in the front or the back seat?
Mr. COUCH. Sitting in the back.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about your position as to the way you were sitting in the back?
Mr. COUCH. Yes; I was almost in the middle and sitting on the--it was a convertible and sitting on the back of the back seat, with my feet on the seat.
Mr. BELIN. Your feet were on the seat-and you would be sitting on the top of the back seat?
Mr. COUCH. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. There were three of you in the back?
Mr. COUCH. Yes; three in the back.
Mr. BELIN. And were you in the middle or to-the right or to the left?
Mr. COUCH. I was about in the middle.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, as you turned north on Houston, do you remember about how fast you were going?
Mr. COUCH. Well, I'd say still that--of course, allowing for the turn--that the pace of the motorcade was about the same. We were clipping along and, as I said, I do have films after we had turned the other comer, and you could still see that the motorcade was moving fairly fast.

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Mr. BELIN. Were there any motorcycle policemen riding alongside the motor-that you remember?
Mr. COUCH. Yes; there were.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the names of any of those people?
Mr. COUCH. No; I don't.
Mr. BELIN. Were they two-wheel or three-wheel motorcycles?
Mr. COUCH. Two-wheel.
Mr. BELIN. Was there one riding alongside of your car?
Mr. COUCH. Uh--he was. I remember distinctly one was on my right going down Main. They would jockey from time to time in different positions. As I recall, on Houston, I don't remember any beside us on Houston. As I say, they would fade back and forth. Sometimes they would be; sometimes they wouldn't.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, as you turned onto Houston, you said that you heard what you described as a---
Mr. COUCH. It sounded like a motorcycle backfire at first--the first time we heard it--the first shot.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about where your car was at the time you heard the first noise?
Mr. COUCH. I would say--uh--15 or 20 feet from the turn--from off of Main onto Houston.
Mr. BELIN. Fifteen or 20 feet from the turn?
Mr. COUCH. We had already completed the turn.
Mr. BELIN. After you had completed the turn, then 15 or 20 feet further on you heard the first shot--the first noise?
Mr. COUCH. Because, I remember I was talking and we were laughing and I was looking back to a fellow on my--that would be on my right---I don't know who it was--we were joking. We had just made the turn. And I heard the first shot.
Mr. BELIN. What happened--or what did anyone say?
Mr. COUCH. As I recall, nothing--there was no particular reaction; uh--nothing unusual. Maybe everybody sort of looked around a little, but didn't think much of it. And--uh--then, in a few seconds, I guess from 4-5 seconds later, or even less, we heard the second shot. And then we began to look--uh, not out of thinking necessarily it was a gunshot, but we began to look in front of us--in the motorcade in front of us. And, as I recall, I didn't have any particular fears or feelings at the second shot. By the third shot, I felt that it was a rifle. Almost sure it was. And, as I said, the shots or the noises were fairly close together, they were fairly even in sound--and--uh, by then, one could recognize, or if he had heard a high-powered rifle, he would feel that it was a high-powered rifle. You would get that impression.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where your vehicle was by the time you heard the third shot?
Mr. COUCH. I'd say we were about 50 feet from making---or maybe 60 feet--from making the left-hand turn onto Elm.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear more than three shots?
Mr. COUCH. No.
Mr. BELIN. Had you heard any noises, what you'd describe like a motorcycle backfiring or firecrackers, prior to the time that you made your turn north onto Houston?
Mr. COUCH. Well, way uptown on Main Street, a motorcycle did backfire right beside us---and we all jumped and had a good laugh over it. And the three shots sounded, at first-the first impression was that this was another motorcycle backfiring.
Mr. BELIN. Now, between the first and the second shots, is there anything else you remember doing or you remember hearing or seeing that you haven't related here at this time?
Mr. COUCH. Nothing unusual between the shots. Uh---as I say, the first shot, I had no particular impression; but the second shot, I remember turning---several of us turning--and looking ahead of us. It was unusual for a motorcycle to backfire that close together, it seemed like. And after the third shot, Bob

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Jackson, who was, as I recall, on my right, yelled something like, "Look up in the window! There's the rifle!"
And I remember glancing up to a window on the far right, which at the time impressed me as the sixth or seventh floor, and seeing about a foot of a rifle being---the barrel brought into the window. I saw no one in that window---just a quick l-second glance at the barrel.
Mr. BELIN. In what building was that?
Mr. COUCH. This was the Texas Book Depository Building.
Mr. BELIN. At the corner of Houston and Elm in Dallas?
Mr. COUCH. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. You said it was the sixth or the seventh floor. Do you know how many floors there are in that building---or did you know at that time?
Mr. COUCH. No; I didn't know at that time.
Mr. BELIN. Did it look like to you he was on the top floor or next to the top floor or the second to the top floor---or---
Mr. COUCH. It looked like it was the top. And when you first glance at the building, you're thrown off a little as to the floors because there's a ridge--uh, it almost looks like a structure added onto the top of the building, about one story above. So, you have to recount.
Of course, at the time, I wasn't counting, but---
Mr. BELIN. You just remember, to the best of your recollection, that it was either the sixth or seventh floor?
Mr. COUCH. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. And when you say, "the far right" ----
Mr. COUCH. That would be the far east.
Mr. BELIN. The far east of what side of the building?
Mr. COUCH. The south side of the building.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not that window at which you saw the rifle, you say, being withdrawn--first of all, could you tell it was a rifle?
Mr. COUCH. Yes, I'd say you could. Uh--if a person was just standing on the--as much as I saw, if the factors that did happen, did not happen, you might not say that it was a rifle. In other words, if you just saw an object being pulled back into a window, you wouldn't think anything of it. But with the excitement intense right after that third shot and what Bob yelled, my impression was that it was a rifle.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything more than a steel barrel of a rifle?
Mr. COUCH. No.
Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not the rifle had any telescopic sight?
Mr. COUCH. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any of the stock of the rifle?
Mr. COUCH. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any person pulling the rifle?
Mr. COUCH. No.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not, if you can remember, the win dow was open or halfway open or what?
Mr. COUCH. It was open. To say that it was half or three-quarters open, I wouldn't say. My impression was that it was all the way open--but that was an impression.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else in the window that you remember--
any boxes or anything like that?
Mr. COUCH. No; I didn't.
Mr. BELIN. You didn't notice whether there was or was not--or do you definitely remember that you did not notice any?
Mr. COUCH. No; I didn't notice anything.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any other people in any other windows in the building?
Mr. COUCH. Yes; I recall seeing--uh-some people standing in some of the other windows-about, roughly, third or fourth floor in the middle of the south side. I recall one---it looked like a Negro boy with a white T-shirt leaning out one of those windows looking up--up to the windows up above him.
Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh. Is there anything else you can remember about the building?

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Mr. COUCH. No; that's just about the only impression I had at the moment.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you related what you heard Bob Jackson say. Did anyone else say anything in the car?
Mr. COUCH. No one else said anything, that I recall, about a rifle, or anything.
Mr. BELIN. Where was the car when you saw this rifle being withdrawn?
Mr. COUCH. I'd say about 25 feet before we made the turn onto Elm. Our car was facing the south side of the building.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what happened after Bob Jackson made his exclamation and you saw what you just related?
Mr. COUCH. Well, I picked up my camera. As I recall, I had it in my hand, but it was down leaning against my legs. And I picked it up and made a quick glance at a setting and raised it to my eye. And---uh---you can see from my film that we're just turning the corner. We start the turn and we turn the corner, and you can see people running. As I recall, there's a quick glance at the front entrance of the Texas Depository Book Building. You can see people running and you can see about the first three cars, maybe four, in front of me as we complete the turn.
And then I took pictures of-uh-a few people on my left and a group, or a sweeping, of the crowd on my right standing on the corner.
Mr. BELIN. Did you take any pictures of the School Book Depository Building itself?
Mr. COUCH. Not of the south side at that moment. After we went, say, 50 to 75 feet on down Elm, uh---we began to hang on because the driver picked up speed. We got down under the---I think there's three trestles there, three crossings underneath the---uh---at the very bottom of Elm Street---
Mr. BELIN. Is that what they call the triple-underpass?
Mr. COUCH. Right And--uh--I think, as I recall, right after we'd made the turn on Elm, one or two of the fellows jumped out. But after we got all the way down underneath the three trestles we finally persuaded the driver--who wasn't too anxious to stop-to stop and-uh-we all jumped out. And I ran, I guess it was about 75 yards or a little more back up to the School Depository Building and took some sweeping pictures of the crowd standing around. I didn't stay there long.
Mr. BELIN. Did you take any pictures of the Depository Building entrance?
Mr. COUCH. No--uh--
Mr. BELIN. When you came back up there?
Mr. COUCH. Not with determination. I cannot recall at this moment whether some of my pictures I took when I ran back might have a sweeping shot of the entrance through a wide angle lens. But not with determination. I didn't plan to take pictures of it.
Mr. BELIN. Would these shots---these wide angle lens shots, if anyone were standing in front of the building or leaving the. building at that time, would you be able to identify them, or would they be too far away?
Mr. COUCH. They would be too far away. Possibly if the frames were blown up, one might determine if someone was standing there identify someone.
Mr. BELIN. About how many minutes after the last shot would you say you came back to take these pictures?
Mr. COUCH. Well, I'd say it took me--uh--maybe a minute and a half to get back to there after this third shot--because we weren't but seconds getting down underneath that underpass after we made the turn.
Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.
Mr. COUCH. And---uh---I jumped out and ran back. So, I'd say not over a minute and a half.
Mr. BELIN. And then you started taking general sweeping shots of the area?
Mr. COUCH. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Were most of the shots directed at people along the side there as to what their reactions were, or were most of the shots directed at the School Book Depository Building?
Mr. COUCH. Mostly of the people standing around, the policemen and shots such as this.

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Mr. BELIN. In what direction, generally, would the camera have been pointed, and where would you have been standing when you took these pictures?
Mr. COUCH. Some of the pictures, I remember, the camera was pointing south---because I was standing on the little knoll which is just at the foot and west of the Depository Building, where the little park area begins. There's a sidewalk that runs between the Book Depository property, I would assume and the park. And I was standing on that little sidewalk.
Mr. BELIN. And your camera was pointing south?
Mr. COUCH. Pointing south. That's right. Now, after I had taken I don't know how many feet of film of people standing around, I--uh--we---I think there was one or two other fellows with me and who they were, now, I can't remember; they were photographers---we stopped a car that was going by with a boy in it---a young boy of about high school age and asked him to take us out to Parkland. And as the car stared off, I stared my camera and I have a sweeping shot moving west from about--uh--maybe the middle of the Book Depository Building from ground level on past the park area---a sweeping shot with the car moving.
Mr. BELIN. And that's about it insofar as the School Book Depository Building is concerned?
Mr. COUCH. Well, no. After we got out to Stemmons---they'd set up a roadblock just as you entered Stemmons Expressway.
Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.
Mr. COUCH. We jumped out of the car and I took, I believe it was, a 2-inch lens shot of the Book Depository Building of the west wall.
Mr. BELIN. Of the west wall?
Mr. COUCH. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Not of the front entrance?
Mr. COUCH. No.
Mr. BELIN. Is there any particular reason, Mr. Couch, why you didn't take your first pictures of the School Book Depository Building itself when you say you saw a rifle being withdrawn?
Mr. COUCH. Well, uh--as best I can recall, the excitement on the ground of people running and policemen "revving" up their motorcycles-and I have a real nice shot of a policeman running toward me with his pistol drawn--the activity on the ground kept my attention. The reason I did not stay and take pictures of the Depository Building--which I had originally intended to do when I got out of the motorcade---was that--uh--another cameraman from our station, A. J. L'Hoste--- [spelling] L-'-H-o-s-t-e---he came running up and--uh--when he ran up, why I said, "You stay here and get shots of the building and go inside and I'm going to go back--I'm going to follow the President."
Mr. BELIN. All right. Was he also a moving picture cameraman?
Mr. COUCH. Yes; right.
Mr. BELIN. Where was he at the time you made this statement?
Mr. COUCH. Uh--he was standing on that little sidewalk that runs between the I met him on the little sidewalk between the Book Depository property and the beginning of the parkway.
Mr. BELIN. That would be the west side of the Depository Building?
Mr. COUCH. That's right; that's right. It's there that I saw the blood on the sidewalk.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you say you saw blood on the sidewalk, Mr.Couch?
Mr. COUCH. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. Where was that?
Mr. COUCH. This was the little walkway---steps and walkway that leads up to the corner, the west corner, the southwest corner of the Book Depository Building. Another little sidewalk, as I recall, turns west and forms that little parkway and archway right next to the Book Depository Building.
Mr. BELIN. Did this appear to be freshly created blood?
Mr. COUCH. Yes; right.
Mr. BELIN. About how large was this spot of blood that you saw?
Mr. COUCH. Uh--from 8 to 10 inches in diameter.
Mr. BELIN. Did people around there say how it happened to get there, or not?

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Mr. COUCH. No; no one knew. People were watching it---that is, watching it carefully and walking around it and pointing to it. Uh--just as I ran up, policemen ran around the west corner and ran--uh--northward on the side of the building. And my first impression was that--uh--that they had chased someone out of the building around that corner, or possibly they had wounded someone. All the policemen had their pistols pulled. And people were pointing back around those shrubs around that west corner and--uh--you would think that there was a chase going on in that direction.
Again, the reason that I didn't follow was because A. J. had come up, and my first concern was to get back with the President.
Mr. BELIN. This pool of blood--about how far would it have been north of the curbline of Elm Street as Elm Street goes to the expressway?
Mr. COUCH. I'd say--uh--well, from Elm Street, you mean, itself?
Mr. BELIN. Yes. This is from that part of Elm Street that goes into the expressway
Mr. COUCH. I'd say--uh---50 to 60 feet, and about 15 feet or 10 to 15 feet from the corner of the Texas Depository Building.
Mr. BELIN. It would have been somewhere along that park area there?
Mr. COUCH. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else you noticed by this pool of blood?
Mr. COUCH. No. There were no objects on the ground. We looked for something. We thought there would be something else, but---
Mr. BELIN. There was nothing?
Mr. COUCH. Huh-uh.
Mr. BELIN. Now, this A.J.---?
Mr. COUCH. L'Hoste. That's "L" apostrophe.
Mr. BELIN. Yes; I have that. I have made a note of the spelling, along with the phonetic sound.
Do you know if he got any pictures of the south side of the School Book Depository?
Mr. COUCH. No; I don't recall what he got--as I recall--now, I may be wrong, this is a guess---that he did not take any pictures.
Mr. BELIN. He did not take any?
Mr. COUCH. No.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know of anyone that took any pictures of the south side of the School Book Depository Building, particularly the front entrance of the building, shortly after the assassination?
Mr. COUCH. No; only what I have seen in Time magazine.
Mr. BELIN. Only what you've seen in Time magazine?
Mr. COUCH. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Now, did you ever know or hear of Lee Harvey Oswald before any of this?
Mr. COUCH. No.
Mr. BELIN. Have you ever met Jack Ruby?
Mr. COUCH. No.
Mr. BELIN. There is an FBI report that states that you had heard hearsay statements that someone had seen Jack Ruby emerge from the rear of the Texas School Book Depository Building around that time. Did anyone ever tell you that?
Mr. COUCH. Yes. Uh--where I first heard it, I could not now recall; but--uh--the story went that--uh--Wes Wise, who works for KRLD----
Mr. BELIN. TV?
Mr. COUCH. Yes--saw him moments after the shooting--how many moments, I don't know--5 minutes, 10 minute--coming around the side of the building, coming around the east side going south, I presume.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever talk to Wes Wise as to whether or not he actually saw this, or is this just hearsay?
Mr. COUCH. No; I didn't. This is just hearsay.
Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this: Is there any observation, other than hearsay, that you have about this entire sequence of events that you have not related here?

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Mr. COUCH. No; I can't think of anything. No.
Mr. BELIN. In this same FBI report of an interview with you, it states that--and by the way, I did not show this to you when you first chatted about this--is that correct?
Mr. COUCH. Uh-huh; that's right.
Mr. BELIN. There is a statement as to. the time sequence that you heard, first, two loud noises about 10 seconds apart. And you related here that it would have been 5 seconds apart or less. Do you remember whether or not at the time you gave your first statement to the FBI you said 10 seconds or would you have said about 10 seconds or would you have said less than 10 seconds--or could this be inaccurate, as sometimes happens?
Mr. COUCH. I don't recall now. Ten seconds is not a reasonable time; even if I said "about 10 seconds." I know a little bit more about timing than that. We have to time our stories pretty close---and that's a long time.
Mr. BELIN. And what's your' best recollection now as to the amount of time between shots?
Mr. COUCH. Well, I would say the longest time would be 5 seconds, but it could be from 3 to 5.
Mr. BELIN. And would this be true between the first and the second shots as well as between the second and third--or would there have been a difference?
Mr. COUCH. As I recall, the time sequence between the three were relatively the same.
Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Couch, shortly before we commenced taking this
deposition, you and I met for the first time. Is that correct?
Mr. COUCH. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. And then we came to this room and we chatted for a few minutes before We started taking a formal deposition. Is that correct?
Mr. COUCH. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Now, is there anything that we talked about pertaining to the assassination that in any way differs or conflicts with the testimony that you have just given?
Mr. COUCH. No; no.
Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not I questioned you in great detail about each question or whether or not I just asked, you to relate the story to me?
Mr. COUCH. You asked me to give general highlight impressions before we began.
Mr. BELIN. And then, after you gave those to me, we started taking the deposition--is that correct?
Mr. COUCH. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. And then you repeated on the deposition what we had talked about--is that right?
Mr. COUCH. That's right--in more detail.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of at this time which, in any way, would affect the investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr. COUCH. No; I cannot think of anything.
Mr. BELIN. Well, we want to thank you very much for taking your time to come down here. We know that you're a busy man. We also would like you to convey our thanks to station WFAA-TV for allowing you to come down here. We appreciate it very much.
Mr. COUCH. Thank you, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Couch, we're going back on the record again. You're still under oath--and I'm not quite sure whether I asked this question, but I had better ask it again. When you saw this rifle being withdrawn. About how much of it could you see at first?
Mr. COUCH. I'd say just about a foot of it.
Mr. BELIN. And in what direction was the barrel pointing at the time you saw it being withdrawn?
Mr. COUCH. Approximately a 45° angle westward--which would be pointing down Elm Street.

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Mr. BELIN. Down Elm Street as it goes into the expressway there?
Mr. COUCH. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. And when you say "45° angle" would that be up or down, or are you referring to the angle of incline, or the angle of west and south?
Mr. COUCH. The angle of incline---from a horizontal position.
Mr. BELIN. All right, So, you would estimate about a 45° angle downward pointing in what would be a southwesterly direction?
Mr. COUCH. Uh--westerly direction. From looking straight on at the building, one could not tell the---uh---angle, whether it was more southward or not. In other words, something sticking out the building, I couldn't tell. It was not---it did not appear to me that it was sticking straight out the window, so to speak.
Mr. BELIN. Yes Is there anything else that you noticed about the gun?
Mr, COUCH. No.
Mr. BELIN, All right. Thank you, I just wanted to make sure I got that on the record.

 

MRS. FRANCES CASON

The testimony of Mrs. Frances Cason was taken at 4:10 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex, by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mrs. Frances Cason [spelling] F-r-a-n-c-e-s?
Mrs. CASON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Mrs. Cason, my name is Leon Hubert, I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel on the President's Commission. Under the provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules and procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. Mrs. Cason, I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mrs. Cason, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine the facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

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In particular, with reference to your duties as a dispatcher of the Dallas Police Department.
Now, Mrs. Cason, you have appeared here today by virtue of an informal request made by the General Counsel of the staff of the President's Commission, and under the rules adopted by the Commission you would normally be entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of your deposition, but those rules also provide that that 3-day written notice may be waived, and I ask you if you are willing to waive that notice at this time?
Mrs. CASON. Yes, I will.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, stand and raise your right hand, please, Ma'am, so as to be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. CASON. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. State your name, please.
Mrs. CASON. Frances Cason.
Mr. HUBERT. Your age?
Mrs. CASON. Age 26.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you married, Mrs. Cason?
Mrs. CASON. Yes, I am.
Mr. HUBERT. Then I suppose we should have your husband's name?
Mrs. CASON. Jimmy D. Cason.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your name prior to the marriage?
Mrs. CASON. Shanz [spelling] S-h-a-n-z.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside?
Mrs. CASON. 2822 Greene [spelling] G-r-e-e-n-e, in Irving, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?
Mrs. CASON. Telephone clerk in the telephone dispatcher's office at the Dallas Police Department.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed?
Mrs. CASON. Since September 6, 1963. Before that I had a 6 months' leave of absence and was employed for the police department for 2 1/2 years.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty between the hours of 7 a.m. and 3 p.m., on November 24, 1963?
Mrs. CASON. Yes, I was; actually, it is 6:30 to 3:30.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mrs. Cason, I have marked for the purposes of identification a document which is to be found in Commission's report 81-A, which is entitled "Investigation of the Operational Security Involving the Transfer of Lee Harvey Oswald on November 24th, 1963." On page 14, thereof, I have also marked Exhibit EE in that document, the following for the purposes of identification, "Dallas, Texas, April 1, 1964. Exhibit 5135, Deposition of Frances Cason and C. E. Hulse." I have signed my name below that and ask you if you have not signed your name, for the purposes of identification, also on this same document?
Mrs. CASON. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you state in your own words just exactly what part you had to do with this Exhibit 5135, which you now have before you?
Mrs. CASON. You want me to just go ahead?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mrs. CASON. At approximately 11:20, or 11:21, I received a call from the basement of city hall there from Officer Slack, who works in the jail office.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Officer Slack prior to this time?
Mrs. CASON. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you spoken to him on the telephone before?
Mrs. CASON. Yes; I have.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you state that you are able to recognize his voice?
Mrs. CASON. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize the voice then speaking to you as being the voice of Officer Slack?
Mrs. CASON. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; now, go ahead.
Mrs. CASON. In addition, he told me it was Officer Slack when he called. It is not unusual for them to say, "This is Slack in the jail office." So he would

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identify himself and ask to speak to Officer Farr, that is J.G. Farr, who is our corporal.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell his last name?
Mrs. CASON. [spelling] F-a-r-r. And he was in charge on that Sunday because we did not have a sergeant there, and he had asked to speak to Farr, and I told him Officer Farr was working channel 2, which is a separate channel that we have, and so he told me, he said, "They just shot Oswald," or "Somebody just shot Oswald," and I told him, "Okay." And placed him on hold and told Farr that he had a red light on 531, and I proceeded to call the ambulance service on the hot line.
Mr. HUBERT. Please describe the hot line?
Mrs. CASON. The hot line is a straight line from our dispatcher office to the ambulance company which requires no dialing. You just lift it up and it rings from our office to theirs.
Mr. HUBERT. So, then, immediately upon getting this information from Slack you passed it on to Farr by word of mouth?
Mrs. CASON. I did not tell Officer Farr that Oswald had just been shot. I felt it was more important to get the ambulance and in time they would know soon enough. I told them he had a red light, and I knew Slack would tell him what happened in the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. So then you flipped the button for the hot line at O'Neal Funeral Home?
Mrs. CASON. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get it immediately?
Mrs. CASON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened then?
Mrs. CASON. It is just a matter of seconds until they answered, and I told them that someone just shot Oswald in the basement, and we needed a white ambulance, code 3, to the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. What does code 3 mean?
Mrs. CASON. Code 3, red lights and sirens, as fast as possible.
Mr. HUBERT. What did the man on the other end say to you?
Mrs. CASON. He told me he would send ambulance 607, from his office, and I told him, "Okay," and hung up the phone.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, who were you speaking to, do you know?
Mrs. CASON. I do not know. Sometimes they will give their names when they answer, and sometimes they do not, and I do not remember if he did or not.
Mr. HUBERT. He told you that 607, ambulance 607, would answer this call?
Mrs. CASON. Yes; he did.
Mr. HUBERT. And answer it under conditions of code 3, that is to say, as fast as possible, red lights and sirens.
Mrs. CASON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened next?
Mrs. CASON. Apparently I must have told Officer C.E. Hulse, who was on the radio, that Oswald had just been shot, and I had ordered an ambulance, and by then I proceeded to make up the call sheet, which is just routine work that we do in the office on every call that we take.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, you have before you Exhibit 5135, which is the call sheet we are talking about, and I notice written in hand, "605 on air," and it seems to be next to the initials, "F.C." Is that language, to wit, "Ambulance 605 on air," in your handwriting?
Mrs. CASON. Yes; it is.
Mr. HUBERT. Are the initials "F.C." your initials?
Mrs. CASON. Yes; they are.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, can you tell us about when you made up that card?
Mrs. CASON. Immediately after ordering the ambulance I made up the call sheet. I did not have to look up the district or any of the information because I knew it all by memory, and we have a lot of calls to city hall, and normally use 2000 and Main, and I knew, of course, it was district 102, and----
Mr. HUBERT. And the top of the card shows it is district 102?
Mrs. CASON. Yes, sir.

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Mr. HUBERT. Now, there is also on that Exhibit 5135, and it appears in blue ink printed by someone in the column entitled, "Ambulance ordered," the following: "C-11:12 a.m., November 24th----"
Mrs. CASON. 11:21, it said----
Mr. HUBERT. "11:21," I beg your pardon Then the column immediately below that, "Time received," "C-11:21 a.m., November 24th." Can you explain that to us, please?
Mrs. CASON. Well, the writing was not on the original call sheet. The original call sheet was stamped in the timeclock. The only reason I can see for it is that in the copying of the call sheet, the printed matter did not show up, and it was necessary to write this in in ink.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it is your thought that the original of which 5135 is a photostatic copy, has got the time printed, and that someone just simply wrote it in?
Mrs. CASON. I feel like it was stamped; yes, sir. I am almost positive it was.
Mr. HUBERT. This writing in blue ink that I referred to is not in your handwriting?
Mrs. CASON. No, sir; it is not.
Mr. HUBERT. What would have been the normal procedure for stamping the time in those two columns?
Mrs. CASON. Well, ordinarily, we make up the call sheet before we stamp it in complete form. In other words, we don't do part of it and stamp that and then do part of it again and stamp that time. I, myself, always stamp the the time that the ambulance is ordered regardless of whether it is on the air or whether it is sent from the office itself. Whereas, some other telephone clerks may have left the "Ambulance ordered" place blank for the dispatcher to stamp.
That is, if it was an ambulance on the air call.
Mr. HUBERT. You feel certain, therefore, that you, having prepared the card, did put it into the time clock?
Mrs. CASON. Yes, sir. I feel sure I stamped the card twice as to the time. Once for the ambulance and----
Mr. HUBERT. How long would it take you to prepare the card?
Mrs. CASON. Just a few seconds. It is very routine, and it just takes a matter of a few seconds if you are familiar with it.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of time clocks are these? I don't mean the make of them, but how do they work? Are they automatic?
Mrs. CAS0N. Yes; they are. They are all electric clocks, and I believe the name of them is Synchron. They show the time on the face of the clock, and you insert the call sheet on the place marked by a red arrow, and when you place the call sheet in, the weight of it causes the clock to stamp the time.
Mr. HUBERT. You do not have to punch anything down?
Mrs. CASON. The weight of the card causes the clock to stamp the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, is that clock checked at any time as to accuracy?
Mrs. CASON. I don't know how often they are checked. I do know that sometimes we find a discrepancy as to the time on the clock insofar as sometimes when we dispatch--when we sent a call sheet through and the time received may be--it says, this could have been 11:23 on the time I received the call, and when we dispatched it it would have shown 11:22, then we would know that the clocks were off, because we couldn't--I couldn't receive a call after we had dispatched it.
Mr. HUBERT. But, the dispatcher would be using a different clock from you?
Mrs. CASON. And when we find these errors in these clocks this way, someone in the office usually adjusts them to where they all are stamping the same time. It doesn't happen very often that they get out of time, but sometimes they do.
Mr. HUBERT. They are not all tied into a master clock?
Mrs. CASON. No; not as far as I know. I don't really know how the system works, but I don't believe they are. I believe they are all on individual basis.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice that Exhibit 5135 shows an "M.J."; is that in your handwriting?

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Mrs. CASON. Yes; it is.
Mr. HUBERT. Well----
Mrs. CASON. These are the initials of Officer M. J. Jackson who was working on the radio with Officer C. E. Hulse at the time the calls were dispatched. The way our radio is set up part of the squads are handled by this officer on one side of the board and part of the squads and the ambulances and APB, which is traffic investigators are handled by the officer on the other side of the radio board, and Mr. Jackson was sitting on the side of the board that would handle a call in the downtown area. That is why I placed his initial on the call sheet, but when it got in there Officer Hulse had already been talking to the ambulance and was dispatching the call rather than Mr. Jackson.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you stated yet whether you conveyed the information about Oswald being shot to Officer Hulse by word of mouth?
Mrs. CASON. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened there?
Mrs. CASON. There is a discrepancy in the number of the ambulance that was on the call sheet and the number of the ambulance that was told to me that would be sent by the ambulance company. I feel that the reason for this is because I called Officer Hulse over the intercom that we have between the telephone clerk's office and the radio dispatcher's office and told him that Oswald had been shot, and I was sending an ambulance, and it is my understanding that ambulance 605 was cleared in the downtown area, and he gave it to ambulance 605, and told me to clear 607 through the office, so, rather than put 607 on the call sheet, I put ambulance 605 on the air, because he was giving the call on the air.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, Officer Hulse got the information that Oswald was shot and that an ambulance was needed from you?
Mrs. CASON. I do not have total recall about the matter, but I feel like Officer Hulse knew Oswald had been shot. This is my only explanation for it. It was busy that day and things were confusing, and I just feel like this is what must have happened. It's not unusual for us to tell them about things like this on the intercom that is placed there for that reason, like if we have an armed robbery they can tell them the location and they can have a squad practically there before we can make up the call sheet, because it takes longer to make up a call sheet if you have to look up the district, and we do not know all of the districts. I happened to know what district this call was in.
Mr. HUBERT. That is why it was easy and quick for you to make up your call sheet, identified as Exhibit 5135?
Mrs. CASON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, is there anything that we have not covered, to your recollection?
Mrs. CASON. I can't think of anything other than that we did not know the exact time that Oswald was to be transferred and I might clarify the matter as to why Officer Farr was on channel 2. Channel 2 was maintained throughout the whole time that President Kennedy was in town and was used for special services such as the--if we have a whole lot of extra traffic men and solo motorcycles and things of this sort to keep them off of channel 1, they set up channel 2, and put all of those people on that channel 2, and I feel sure that this must have been the case this day, because they must have had all sorts of extra people set up for the transfer from the city hall to the county jail and this is probably why Officer Farr was maintaining channel 2.
Mr. HUBERT. But this call went out on channel 1?
Mrs. CASON. This call went out on channel 1, but other than that, I can't think of anything else I know that might have any bearing on this whatsoever.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you this: We did have an interview, didn't we, immediately before the beginning of this deposition?
Mrs. CASON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you think of anything that we discussed in the course of that interview which has not been covered in this deposition?
Mrs. CASON. Only pertaining to the squad dispatched, and I believe Officer Hulse can cover that. Other than that, I can't think of anything.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, now, do you perceive any inconsistencies between the

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interview and the facts brought out in the interview and your deposition now being taken?
Mrs. CASON. No; I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. I think that is all, then. Thank you very much.
Mrs. CASON. Thank you.

 

MISS DORIS BURNS

The testimony of Miss Doris Burns was taken at 3:20 p.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Please stand up and hold up your right hand and be sworn.
Miss BURNS. (complying).
Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Miss BURNS. I do.
Mr. BALL. What is your name, please?
Miss BURNS. Doris Burns.
Mr. BALL.. What is your address?
Miss BURNS. 2617 Shelby, Dallas.
Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?
Miss BURNS. I am a correspondent for the Macmillan Co.
Mr. BALL. Where is your office?

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Miss BURNS. In the Texas School Book Depository Building on the third floor.
Mr. BALL. Call you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and what your education is, and what your business occupation has been.
Miss BURNS. Well, I was born in Tyler, Tex., and I graduated from high school here in Dallas and I worked many years for lawyers here.
Mr. BALL. What kind of work?
Miss BURNS. Well, I was just a legal secretary and worked for Vanette Hosiery Mills, secretary to the president. They are not here any more, I don't think. After that I worked for a geologist.
Mr. BALL. Most of your work has been secretarial, has it?
Miss BURNS. Yes, but at Macmillan I mostly compose my own letters.
Mr. BALL. When did you go to work for Macmillan?
Miss BURNS. April 19, 1955. Am I too fast?
Mr. BALL. She can write as fast as you talk.
Miss BURNS. That's wonderful.
Mr. BALL. Go right ahead.
Miss BURNS. Let's see, I've forgotten what else you wanted to know.
Mr. BALL Well, first of all, you went to work in 1955?
Miss BURNS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where is the office of the Macmillan Co.?
Miss BURNS. Well, at that time it was on Ross and Akard; now----
Mr. BALL. Where was it in November 1963?
Miss BURNS. At Elm and Houston.
Mr. BALL. What part of the building?
Miss BURNS. On the third floor, room 301.
Mr. BALL. Are there any windows in those offices?
Miss BURNS. Yes; they have some windows; they face the west, I guess you would say. They don't overlook the route of the President's--
Mr. BALL. Do they or do they not overlook Elm Street?
Miss BURNS. They do not overlook Elm Street.
Mr. BALL. They overlook the railroad Yards, do they?
Miss BURNS. That is right.
Mr. BALL. On November 22d, what were you doing that day?
Miss BURNS. I was listening to the radio as I worked.
Mr. BALL. About noon, did you go to lunch?
Miss BURNS. Well, I had lunch at the office and then I didn't intend to go see the President, didn't have any desire to but I left about--I don't remember the exact time but, anyway, when I left they said on the radio that he that the motorcade was coming up, I believe it was Cedar Springs; anyway, he hadn't been away from the airport long and that he was going about 5 miles an hour so everybody could see him. Well, thinking he was going that slowly, I thought I had plenty of time, so I walked up to Sanger's
Mr. BALL To where?
Miss BURNS. Sanger's.
Mr. BALL. Where is that?
Miss BURNS. It's about four blocks up Elm Street.
Mr. BALL. Which way on Elm---east?
Miss BURNS. East; you see, we are down at the extreme west end of the street; nothing else down there.
Mr. BALL. Then what happened?
Mr. BURNS. I bought some Kleenex and came back, and everybody was out on the steps to look, but I didn't stop. I went on back to the office.
Mr. BALL. That is the third floor?
Miss BURNS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Was anybody in the office?
Miss BURNS. Yes; Mrs. Case hadn't ever gone out. She was there. I believe she was the only one.
Mr. BALL. What did you do?
Miss BURNS. I listened to the radio, and by that time they said that he was on Main and turning at Houston or Main by the courthouse, so since he was that

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close, I thought, well, I guess I will go look out the window. I didn't care-- enough to go downstairs, but I thought I will go look out the window. So I thought I would have plenty of time, if he was just coming around Main Street, that I could still get around there, so I went around to American Book Co., which is the office closest to us that had a window looking out on Elm. There was nobody in there, so then I started down the hail to Allyn and Bacon. As I went down this hall towards the windows that looked out on Houston Street, I heard a shot, but I didn't think much about it. I didn't, of course, know it was a shot because when you hear tires backfire and all, they all sound alike to me, so I didn't think a thing about that.
I went around to Allyn and Bacon, and Mr. Wilson, the manager, was at the window looking out. He was the only one in there, so I asked him if I could look out the window with him. About that time he said "Oh, my God, there's been a shooting." I still didn't think anybody, of course, had been killed, just thought somebody had shot in the air or something, so I said "Has the President already passed? And he said "Yes," so I looked out and that big bus that had the press in it, had the word "Press" or whatever it was on the bus, was passing. so I said "Well, I guess I have missed the President then," and I started on back out of the office and I just said as I left, "Well, I hope nobody got hurt."
Mr. BALL. You heard how many shots?
Miss BURNS. One.
Mr. BALL. Just one?
Miss BURNS. It must have been the last one because I didn't hear any more.
Mr BALL. Did you have any idea where it was coming from?
Miss BURNS. Well, it just sounded as though it was back of me. You see, I was going towards Houston Street. I was facing east and it sounded to me as it came toward my back.
Mr. BALL. You were in the building?
Miss BURNS. Yes; I was in the building.
Mr. BALL. Walking down the hall?
Miss BURNS. Walking down the hall going towards Allyn and Bacon.
Mr. BALL. Now, what happened after that?
Miss BURNS. I came on back and listened to the radio some more and in a few minutes, why, they told it.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever know Lee Harvey Oswald?
Miss BURNS. I rode on the elevator with him one time.
Mr. BALL. That's all?
Miss BURNS. But I didn't know who he was--about a week before.
Mr. BALL. You never talked to him?
Miss BURNS. I never talked to him.
Mr. BALL. Who were you with at the time this happened?
Miss BURNS. The Macmillan Co.
Mr. BALL. Who was in the office with you?
Miss BURNS. Mrs. Case, but I couldn't see her.
Mr. BALL. She was in the same office?
Miss BURNS. I have a private office. She was around the corner where her office is.
Mr. BALL. Mrs. Case?
Miss BURNS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear anybody running down the stairs at any time?
Miss BURNS. Yes, but I didn't know
Mr. BALL. When?
Miss BURNS. It was after that; I went to the restroom.
Mr. BALL. How long after?
Miss BURNS. I imagine maybe it was 25 minutes. I imagine it was the policeman or somebody; of course, I don't know who it was.
Mr. BALL. I think that's all, Miss Burns. This will be written up and you can sign it; you can read it and sign it or you can waive your signature if you wish and you won't have to come back here. Which would you rather do?
Miss BURNS. I can waive signature if that is all right.
Mr. BALL. Fine, thank you very much, Miss Burns

CHARLES OLIVER ARNETT

The testimony of Charles Oliver Arnett was taken at 8 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burr W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. I am Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's office for the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission itself was set up under an Executive order issued by President Johnson and congressional resolution passed by Congress.
Pursuant to these official acts, the Commission itself has promulgated a set of rules of procedure, and under these rules of procedure I have been authorized to come here and take your sworn deposition. Captain Arnett, I want to explain to you a little bit of the general nature of our inquiry here. We are concerned with the assassination of President Kennedy and the final death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and we have been empowered and requested by the President to investigate all the facts and evaluate and then report this back to the President.
We have asked you to come here because we believe that you may have some facts that might be pertinent, particularly to the death of Lee Oswald. However, we are also concerned with the entire picture in the examination, and if there is anything that you think would be helpful to us, why, of course, we want to take that. Mr. Hubert and myself are not working on an intensive basis on the other aspects of things, outside of Ruby. So what I will do is ask you a few general things which might have some bearing upon the death of the President that would enable other people to look at it and see if you were somebody that might have information, and then we will get into the other problems.
Now, the mechanics by which we asked you to come here by, the general counsel of the Commission sent a letter to Chief Curry indicating that we would like to talk to you and certain other police officers. Actually, under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to have a written letter from the Commission, 3 days in advance of your testimony here, but the rules also provide that you can waive this notice. Before I swear you in, I would like to ask you if you are willing to waive the notice provision ?
Mr. ARNETT. Oh, sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are also entitled to have an attorney, and I see that you don't have an attorney, and I take it that you don't want one.
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you have any questions you would like to ask me about the thing before I swear you
Mr. ARNETT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you give the court reporter your full name?
Mr. ARNETT. Charles Oliver Arnett.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And when were you born, Mr. Arnett?
Mr. ARNETT September 6, 1911.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And where do you live now?
Mr. ARNETT. 1223 South Waverly Drive, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you are employed with the Dallas Police Department, is that right?
Mr. ARNETT. No. I am a captain on the reserve.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, will you explain what the difference is between the reserve and the police department?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes sir. Reserves were established about 10 or 11 years ago, to assist in, say, tornadoes or, you know, something that came up that they needed more help in to be trained on that. We don't draw any pay from the Dallas Police Department at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who does pay you?
Mr . ARNETT. Nobody.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a completely voluntary thing on your part?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you have a regular occupation on the side?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir; I drive a truck.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. And for whom do you work?
Mr. ARNETT. Certain-Teed Products Co.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that here in Dallas?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with them?
Mr. ARNETT. Fourteen years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been in the police reserve ?
Mr. ARNETT. A little over 10 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, have you had any special training in connection with your duties in the police reserve?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir; went through school.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us a little bit about that school?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, when I was going through, we went on Friday night, I believe it takes 7 1/2 months, if I remember right, to complete the course.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long ago was this that you went through the school?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, it's been a little over 10 years now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you went every Friday night?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. For how many hours a night?
Mr. ARNETT. Two hours.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And as a result you became an officer in the reserve?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, since you have been in the reserve, how frequently would you be called to duty ?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, I was a sergeant to start with. We had 2 nights a month, I believe it was, that we were assigned to be here. You could come more times than that if you had the opportunity. Then I made lieutenant, which put me over more men, and April 6, either 3 or 4 years ago, I was made captain, and I have, I believe 80 some odd men under my company B. I am captain over company B.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you go through the training school, do your men engage in regular training of any sort, with the police department?
Mr. ARNETT. Well they ride on the squads and observe what's going on and special things like Texas-Oklahoma football rally. We work in that. State Fair of Texas. Usually somebody assigned to that every night during the Fair, and such as the President's parade. There were, I believe say 30 some odd--27 or 28, I believe it was, was assigned to that. Just things like that, or what we are assigned to, and then we have our regular nights that we ride squads, that we ride with squads or whatever
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. How often are you assigned to ride squads?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, the patrolmen usually ride on their regular nights.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that once a week or once every 2 weeks?
Mr. ARNETT. Now, they are assigned twice a month, but if they have the time they usually come down once a week.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And for how long do they ride?
Mr. ARNETT. Oh, usually report around 7 or 7:30 at night until 10:30, 11 o'clock. Some of them ride longer than that, but that's the usual case.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are they in uniform at that time when they ride?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do they receive any pay for that?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are there any other training programs that these men undergo once they have gone through the initial 7-month program ?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, each fall they go out to the pistol range. I would say for four or five Saturdays, something like that. I might be off a week or something like that, but somewhere in that neighborhood, for training out there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Anything else you can think of ?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, right offhand, I don't believe there are.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I want to mark these couple of documents here, and then we will talk about these [indicating].
Mr. ARNETT. All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark what is an interview that you had with two agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Mr. Mabey and Mr. Kenneth P. Hughes

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Hughes, on December 4, 1963. I am going to mark that Dallas, Tex., C. O. Arnett, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5032. And the next document that I am going to mark is what purports to be a copy of a letter that you prepared--signed, rather, dated November 27, 1963, and addressed to Chief Curry, having to do with the events that you observed on November 24, 1963. I am going to mark that Dallas, Tex., C. 0. Arnett, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5033. Now, I am going to hand these two exhibits to you, Captain Arnett, and I want to ask you if you have examined those. Have you had a chance to read them ?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are there any additions or corrections, changes that you want to make in those, after having had a chance to read them?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Tell us where they are and we will see if we can't do that.
Mr. ARNETT. Right here. "He was stationed at the door of Chief Curry's office--" [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, this is on Exhibit 5032, and you are referring to the language in the second paragraph on the first page. You stated that you were stationed in the door of Chief Curry's office. Go ahead.
Mr. ARNETT. I was stationed at Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Mr. ARNETT. See, they have got it wrong. They have got it down Chief Curry, when it was Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you take my pen, then, and make the change on there, and cross out what's wrong and make an entry nearby to indicate what's correct, and then initial
Mr. ARNETT. Just scratch out this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I would say scratch out Chief Curry and write in Captain Fritz, if that's correct.
Mr. ARNETT. How do you spell Fritz?
Mr. GRIFFIN. [ Spelling] F-r-i-t-z.
Mr. ARNETT. [ Spelling] F-r-i-t-z ?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Apostrophe s, I guess. [Spelling] F-r-i-t-z-'-s.
Mr. ARNETT. All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you initial, put your initials by each one of those changes and put a date out there, 3-25-64. Are there any other corrections that you think ought to be made there ?
Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember any right now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Now, did you serve in connection with the President's parade ?
Mr. ARNETT. Was I at the parade?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any duties as a reserve officer in connection with President Kennedy's arrival?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us what those duties were?
Mr. ARNETT. I was at large, but I worked between Harwood and St. Paul, on Main Street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when were you first told that you would have some responsibility in connection with the procession of the President through Dallas?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, probably the day before. I am not going to say that for sure. I could be wrong a day or two, but I think it was the day before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you have any men that you were responsible for supervising?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many men did you supervise on that particular day?
Mr. ARNETT. If I remember right, we had 27 or 28 reserves in the detail. We assigned them out of the assembly room to various locations up and down where the parade would be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you attend any meeting prior to November 22, in which you got instructions as to what you were going to do in connection with the parade?

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Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; other than the assembly room that morning, when we assigned the men out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you arrived at the police department on the morning of November 22, what time was it that you got there, do you remember?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, it seems like it was around 10 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, prior to 10 o'clock on November 22, had you received any instructions as to what your duties were going to be, in particular with respect to the parade?
Mr. ARNETT. Other than just work in the parade is all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When you arrived, who did you report to?
Mr. ARNETT. To the assembly room. And right offhand, now, I can't tell you who was in charge of the regular officers. At that time I knew, and it seems to me like it was Lieutenant--I can't recall his name right now. Maybe I will think of it directly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, that's all right. Was there a meeting of all the reserve officers in the assembly room?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you receive instructions at that time?
Mr. ARNETT. At that time they were each one assigned their location to work.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Mr. ARNETT. And not to--if they was booing the President or not--you know, getting out of line or anything, not to bother anybody, but if you saw anybody that was--acted as though they was going to bodily harm--you know, injure body, well, to notify the police officer, regular officers, you know, of what was going on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall who gave you--say this was the lieutenant that gave these instructions?
Mr. ARNETT. It was a lieutenant that assigned us out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember who gave you these instructions that you are talking about?
Mr. ARNETT. It seems like it was Captain Lawrence, but I couldn't swear to that, but it's----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Captain Solomon have any responsibility in that regard?
Mr. ARNETT. It may have been Captain Solomon that gave us that. It was a captain, I am almost certain and I feel like I know Captain Solomon was in the building, in the meeting with us, and it could have been him that gave us instructions.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. The instructions that were given, did they have to do with anything other than watching the crowd, were you instructed to watch any other places besides the crowd ?
Mr. ARNETT. You mean any particular buildings?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or just buildings generally; were you instructed to watch the windows in buildings or watch the roofs or anything like that?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, I wouldn't say that anything like that in particular was named, but it was, you know, to watch and see--keep the crowd back out of the street and see that nobody, you know, rushed out there against the President's car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, had you served in connection with other parades?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any other Presidential or political parades like this?
Mr. ARNETT. At one time Vice President Nixon came to the opening of the Fair, and I was there for that. Some man walked up to me and told me that he would like to present a pair of boots to the Vice President. A Secret Service man, I suppose, was standing close enough that he heard what the man said to me, and he asked me what the man said, and I told him, and he said, "Certainly he can't give him a pair of boots. Get his name and address and if he wants to mail the Vice President a pair of boots he can later." That's all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the instructions that were given down in the assembly room, did they differ in any way from the instructions that would normally be given at any other parade that you worked in?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, I wouldn't think so.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean at other parades was it the custom to bring you into the assembly room or
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then give instructions as to what you should do and what to watch out for?
Mr. ARNETT. That's right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were any of the men under your supervision assigned to the area of the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether there were any men at all of the reserve officers assigned to the area of the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. ARNETT. I don't recall any.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the fact that you don't recall; would you have been made aware of that?
Mr. ARNETT. I had a list of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You did. And did that list show the areas where they were assigned ?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you still have a copy of that list ?
Mr. ARNETT. Captain Solomon does.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on this list did it show where each particular man was to stand, was to be placed ?
Mr. ARNETT. They would either be on the west side of Harwood or they would be on the east side of Harwood, between block so-and-so; Main the same way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But would it show Charles O. Arnett, corner of Main and Harwood?
Mr. ARNETT. I was working at large.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, would it show, if I were working there, would it show Burt W. Griffin, corner of Main and Harwood?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. What did you do when you heard that the President had been shot?
Mr. ARNETT. Had an aunt that was to be buried at 2 o'clock that afternoon, and the President's parade was later than it had been predicted, and when it was over with, prior to the President's arrival at the between Harwood and Pacific on Main, a young lady in her twenties, maybe 30 years old, came up to me and said, "There is some kids right down there that's got a gun and some toy handcuffs and a knife." I said, "Would you show them to me?" She said, "Well, I rather not." So I went and got Earl Sawyer, a police officer that was working the corner of Harwood and Main, and told him of it. He and I went back to the lady and he asked her. She said, "Oh, it's just a toy pistol." But some little girls there with us told us where they were, about where they were standing, and we walked up to them, asked them about the gun and stuff. They said the boy with the gun had walked off, but one of them give us a pair of handcuffs and a knife, and I taken him, and Sawyer went with me, and we carried him to the juvenile department up on the third floor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a real knife that the kid had?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. The gun turned out to be a blank, like they shoot---oh, at starting races or something like that, you know. When the parade was past us, one of these smaller boys that was in the group come up to me and asked me when his buddy would .be turned loose. I said, "I don't know, son, but I will go up there with you to try to find out where he is." So we went up there on the third floor of the juvenile department. While I was in there someone rushed in and said, "The President has been shot."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was up there with you at that time in the juvenile department; do you recall any of the officers that were there?
Mr. ARNETT. No; I believe Captain Martin--now, I could be wrong on the name, but he is over the juvenile department, or was. You know, the captain that they--that had the kid that we had carried up there. So I came back downstairs then and I saw two or three highway patrol, driver's license men-
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt here just a second, give you a few names of

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people who were in that department, Juvenile department, and see if you recognize any of those as having been present. Was Detective Lowery there?
Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember him being. Now, he may have been.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Officer Goolsby there?
Mr. ARNETT. I don't recall him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Detective Miller there?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, I couldn't say, and I wouldn't say without telling you the truth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; do you know L. D. Miller, Louis D. Miller?
Mr. ARNETT. I don't know whether I do or not. I do know Lowery, and I do know the officer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Lowery and Goolsby. How about the Officer Harrison?
Mr. ARNETT. Blackie Harrison?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Blackie Harrison?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he there at the time?
Mr. ARNETT. I don't recall him being there at the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go after you left the boy in the juvenile bureau?
Mr. ARNETT. That was when I carried the second boy up to see about his buddy?
Mr. ARNETT. I went downstairs and on the street. As I say, I saw three or four Texas Highway Department driver's license men, and I said, "The President has been shot." ,And they said, "Oh, Arnett, what size camera was he shooting?" They thought, you know, I was joking. So I went on and got in my car. By that time squads were going everywhere.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this your private car?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes; went home to change clothes out of my uniform into civilian clothes, to go to my aunt's funeral.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, which way did you drive?
Mr. ARNETT. I believe I went down Young Street. I did. I went down Young Street to avoid all this traffic of squads and everything going
Mr. GRIFFIN. Young Street in what direction?
Mr. ARNETT. West.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Headed west?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Over the Houston Street viaduct to Oak Cliff.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Does Young intersect Jackson any place?
Mr. ARNETT. Jackson runs along beside it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Runs parallel to it. Did you go by the Greyhound Bus station?
Mr. ARNETT. Did I go by it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. ARNETT. I would have been one block south of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what time would you. estimate that it was that you went over the Houston Street viaduct?
Mr. ARNETT. I would say it was shortly before 1 o'clock, because I had to rush to get out of these clothes into other clothes to get to Grapevine, which is only 20 miles, something like that, to be there at 2 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got across the Houston Street viaduct, is there a point where you come to Zangs Boulevard?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go to Zangs?
Mr. ARNETT. I went Zangs to Jefferson.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get to the corner of Zangs and Beckley at any point in your trip out there?
Mr. ARNETT. No. Beckley would have been a block east of where I was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you drove this route, did you see anything?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of any importance to the Commission?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, I take it then you went on out to the funeral, or wherever you had to go?
Mr. ARNETT. I went on home. I had my police radio on. Before I arrived at my home I heard someone come in on the radio and say, "A police officer has been shot." And further, maybe a block or two, he says, "I believe he is dead." And I changed my clothes right quick and got in my car to go to Grapevine. I came back down Clarendon to the R. L. Thornton Expressway, taken R. L. Thornton Expressway to Highway 114 well, it turns into Stemmons Expressway, you know, automatically, Highway 114, and I was listening all the time of this transaction of the police officer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you listening on a police radio?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Let me ask you this, this is your own private car?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does the police radio broadcast over a frequency that can be heard on ordinary radio receivers?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of special adaption do you have to have on your receiver to pick this up?
Mr. ARNETT. They call it a converter. It's hooked in with your radio.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this an FM converter; do they broadcast on an FM frequency, do you know?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, seems to me like it used to be AM and you could pick it up then by having your radio fixed a certain way, but they quit that. You couldn't do it no more, so you had to buy this converter to go with your radio to get it. And I listened to the move from the library over in Oak Cliff to the Texas Theater, and was listening to it when they got him, but I was at Grapevine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear the automobiles called in from the outlying districts over your radio, when you were listening to it; did you hear any communications from the dispatcher or otherwise, calling police cars in from the outlying districts?
Mr. ARNETT. They were giving a description of the man that they had a description on, and then after the policeman was shot, Tippit, well, they was giving the description of it, and they first thought he was in the library over in Oak Cliff. Then they moved to a vacant house, then they moved to the Texas Theater.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did you go back to the police station on Friday, after you heard that Tippit had been shot?
Mr. ARNETT. After the funeral, after my aunt's funeral was over, I came home, ate supper and went back in uniform, came back down here and worked on the third floor at the elevator.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would you estimate that you arrived at the third floor?
Mr. ARNETT. I would say 6 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time that you arrived at the elevator, had there been a system set up for admitting people to the third floor--let's put it this way, excluding people from the third floor ?
Mr. ARNETT. That's what I started doing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was there anybody else doing that at the elevator before you arrived, before you got there?
Mr. ARNETT. I couldn't say whether there was anybody assigned there before I got there or not, but there was a Sergeant Ellis, I believe, and Sergeant Dugger, were there 'with me when I was working there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you replace anybody?
Mr. ARNETT. Now, I am not going to say that I did or I didn't, because I couldn't tell you and be telling you the truth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you get your instructions from?
Mr. ARNETT. I believe it was Sergeant Ellis, I believe it was, now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. IS he a regular sergeant?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you ride on the elevator?
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Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. I was in front of it, and as people got off they had to show their identification.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did you recognize Jack Ruby?
Mr. ARNETT. Did I recognize him?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I mean, did you know Jack Ruby up to this point?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of identification did you ask for when people got off of the elevator?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, if they was a press reporter, they had a press card, showing who they were, and they were from everywhere, coming in there. You would be surprised how far they had traveled that day. You know, I was--I didn't think about people being there that day, you know, from so far up. One man told me he was asleep in Chicago. They woke him up and told him the President had been killed, and he was there that night, I would say by 8 o'clock. There was one man in particular that I remember, that came up. He said he was a postal inspector.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Postal inspector?
Mr. ARNETT. He showed me his identification, said he would like to talk to Captain Fritz, that he had a key to the post office box down there that this fellow had, and he wanted to see if that key did fit it, or he had a key and he wanted to see if it would--was to that box.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how many of you were standing there at the third floor elevator, checking identification of people who got off the elevator?
Mr. ARNETT. I would say four. Two elevators.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do about people who came up, who said they came up to see somebody who was being questioned, or in connection with some other business other than being a photographer or---
Mr. ARNETT. If they didn't have an identification of pressmen or ranger or lawmen of some kind, they were turned back. There were two Spanish men came up there who wanted to talk to some officer about a ticket, and we notified whatever officer they wanted to talk to about it, and told him to go downstairs and see them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Suppose somebody had showed you a justice of the peace card, would you have admitted him?
Mr. ARNETT. A justice of the peace?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Suppose somebody had showed you a card that said he was an honorary deputy sheriff, or a courtesy card, some of the law enforcement agents give out, are you familiar with those?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Suppose someone had showed you one of those, would you have let him in?
Mr. ARNETT. I wouldn't let anybody in who didn't have proper identification, without notifying one of these regular officers standing there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have considered this a proper identification?
Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember having that come up. Now, there were two or three rangers there. One of them from Gainesville, Tex. I talked to him a little bit and the captain of the rangers was there. I don't know where he was from. He might have been from Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any lawyers come up?
Mr. ARNETT. Lawyers?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember any.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any newspaper people come up who didn't show you press cards who appeared to be newspaper people from the way they conducted themselves?
Mr. ARNETT. Two or three different times a news reporter would come up and show a press card and say, "I have got a friend with me that's just with me". I said he would just have to wait downstairs, and they did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you know, a number of police officers have stated that they saw Jack Ruby up on the third floor on Friday evening. How do you imagine that Ruby could have got by?
Mr. ARNETT. I don't know. After I was there that afternoon or that night, I

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would say. I wasn't in the afternoon, because I was at that funeral, but I don't believe Jack Ruby got up there after that time of night. I didn't see Jack Ruby the entire time of that thing, until he was in front of me in the basement, the 24th.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have recognized him?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you remain at the elevator doors all of the time you were on duty on Friday?
Mr. ARNETT. Friday night?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. ARNETT. I would say I was there until around 11 o'clock that night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After 11 o'clock what did you do ?
Mr. ARNETT. I went home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody replace you on those doors?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who that was?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you give him any instructions as to what he was to do in admitting people?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you come in on Saturday?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you come in on Saturday?
Mr. ARNETT. Around 2 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how late did you stay?
Mr. ARNETT. Until about 11.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you do the same sort of thing on Saturday?
Mr. ARNETT. That afternoon I didn't work in front of the elevators, but I did work where the stairways are. There is a stairway that you can walk down.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. ARNETT. I worked there with an officer. I believe his initials is L. M. Baker.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there came a time Saturday night when you were stationed by Captain Fritz' office?
Mr. ARNETT. That's right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time was that?
Mr. ARNETT. I would say around 7 or 8 o'clock that night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you notice while you were there whether any newspaper people were going in to use the telephone in the homicide office?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you were stationed outside Captain Fritz' door. Do you mean that you were inside the homicide office?
Mr. ARNETT. No; I was outside.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, you were stationed outside of the homicide door?
Mr. ARNETT. In the hallway.
Mr. GRIFFIN Now, that wasn't really the door to Captain Fritz' office?
Mr. ARNETT. No; his office is back inside, but you had to go through that door to get to his office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if it wouldn't be clearer if we even edited this other, instead of Captain Fritz, if we crossed that out and said to the door to the homicide office ?
Mr. ARNETT. All right. Go ahead and write it in if you want to.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me mark it [indicating].
Mr. ARNETT. That would sound more reasonable, sensible, anyway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you initial those two places and date them where I marked them [indicating] ?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. We got the date, is that all right?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That's okay. All right. Now, did you see newspapermen going in to use the telephone in other offices besides the homicide bureau?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, really I just tell you the truth, there were so many people


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in there and out--what I mean, there was a crowd there, and as far as seeing what was going on in other offices, I couldn't tell you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did there come a time on Saturday night when you received some instructions from one of the other officers?
Mr. ARNETT. Did there?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call Lieutenant Merrell sometime that night?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, about what time was that?
Mr. ARNETT. It seemed to me like it was around 9 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. And what did Lieutenant Merrell tell you?
Mr. ARNETT. That Captain Solomon had called him and asked to get a few reserves down there the next morning to help with the transfer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, where was this told to you?
Mr. ARNETT. It was told to me there at the door, to call Lieutenant Merrell. I am trying to think where I went and called from.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Somebody came up to you at the homicide office
Mr. ARNETT. That's right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And said, "Call Lieutenant Merrell"?
Mr. ARNETT. That's right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you went and made a telephone call?
Mr. ARNETT. I believe I went. in Chief Curry's--not in his office, now, but into the room where all the secretaries and everything are, and used the telephone. I am almost certain I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call Merrell some place outside of the building or
Mr. ARNETT. He was at home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He was at home. Is he a regular officer?
Mr. ARNETT. He is a reserve lieutenant.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He is a reserve lieutenant?
Mr. ARNETT. He is my assistant.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then Merrell .told you that you would have to have some men?
Mr. ARNETT. That they wanted some men, yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So somebody apparently had called Merrell to tell him that, is that right?
Mr. ARNETT. Captain Solomon, I believe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Captain Solomon had called Merrell. Now, did you attempt to locate some reserves that night?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you attempt to locate reserves that were already in the police department building?
Mr. ARNETT. I called Lieutenant McCoy, who was on duty, riding in a squad car, put out a call for him to call me at the office, and he did, and I gave him those instructions, to call some of his men the next morning to be there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what time did you tell Lieutenant McCoy that the men should be there?
Mr. ARNETT. Nine o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at this point did you have any understanding as to generally when Oswald would be moved; did you have any idea generally when he would be moved?
Mr. ARNETT. Chief Curry told the newsmen that if they were back by 10 o'clock they would be plenty early.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear Chief Curry tell them that?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than what you heard Chief Curry say, did you receive any other information?
Mr. ARNETT. Of what time it would be?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you have your conversations with Lieutenant Merrell and Lieutenant McCoy before or after Chief Curry made the announcement to the press?

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Mr. ARNETT. I would say it was probably a few minutes before I heard him say that. I could be wrong about it. I am trying to, you know, think whether it was or wasn't, but I am not certain about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the call that you issued to Lieutenant McCoy, would that have gone through the dispatcher's office?
Mr. ARNETT. For him to call me would--yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And they would have made a record of that, isn't that right?
Mr. ARNETT. It would have been recorded, but our conversation wouldn't have been.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If we were to look at that record, would that be the most accurate reflection of the approximate time that you had information concerning the transfer of Oswald; in other words, is that the most accurate
Mr. ARNETT. It would be recorded all right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. My question is, we want to try to find out just exactly how soon people would have known that something was going to happen. Now, is that record, that would be in the dispatcher's office the most accurate or earliest record that would have been made of anything you did in connection with the information you received about the move, that Oswald was going to be moved the next day?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, it would show--you would have to first check and see what squad McCoy was riding, to get the number.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. ARNETT. You see?
Mr. GRIFFIN. It wouldn't go out to McCoy specifically ?
Mr. ARNETT. No; it would go to the squad he was riding with. His name wouldn't have been on there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But now, would the dispatcher's statement over the radio, would that say number such-and-such call number such-and-such, or would it say number such-and-such call Captain Arnett?
Mr. ARNETT. No; I believe it would have said call the office. I don't believe our names would have been mentioned on the air.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, would there be a record of some kind that we could use to find out what number designated Lieutenant McCoy?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, there would be a work sheet, assignment sheet, of what squad he was riding in that night, the number of it. For instance, we will just say 243 or 242 or--I don't know what number it was now, but I am just saying those numbers, that it's possible he could have been in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, do you know how long records of that sort are retained by the police department?
Mr. ARNETT. I suppose they are kept for a long time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what time was it that you arrived at the Police and Courts Building the next day ?
Mr. ARNETT. Nine o'clock a.m.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How many men would you estimate that you contacted about this between the time that you got the word from Lieutenant Merrell and the time you arrived at 9 o'clock?
Mr. ARNETT. If I remember right, I called Lieutenant Merrell--I mean Lieutenant McCoy, and I saw Lieutenant Nicholson and told him to call some of his men. If I remember right, though, those are the only two people I contacted on it. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would Lieutenant Merrell have had occasion to contact any other officers, to give instructions to men?
Mr. ARNETT. He could have called some of the sergeants and told them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Would there have been any other captains who would have given instructions similar to ones you gave?
Mr. ARNETT Well, there are three more captains, but so far as I know there wasn't any contacted, unless it was Captain Crump and I didn't contact him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How many men did you attempt to get in that next morning?
Mr. ARNETT. I told them to have 8 or 9 to 10 men.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Each; each lieutenant?
Mr. ARNETT. No; each one just get two or three men. We had 18.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Had 18 all together?
Mr. ARNETT. Uh, huh.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you remember where you parked your car before you came in the building on Sunday morning?
Mr. ARNETT. I either put it in the parking station west of the city hall on Commerce Street or I parked it on the side street of Commerce.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember entering the building?
Mr. ARNETT. Do I remember entering the building ?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what entrance you came through?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. Down in the basement, from Commerce Street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you walked down that Commerce Street entrance, at that time were there any TV cables strung through there?
Mr. ARNETT. The cameras were set up on the Commerce side, out there, and I do believe that there were cables running through the door.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is one door there that enters into the hallway that runs to the records room, as you get down the bottom of the steps from Commerce Street, you open up the door and you can go down a hallway toward the records room?
Mr. ARNETT. Down that way [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Going north?
Mr. ARNETT. Uh, huh.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there are also in there, at the bottom of those steps from the street, two other doors; do you recall that there are two other doors there?
Mr. ARNETT. They would be on Harwood Street, then?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No.
Mr. ARNETT. You mean there are two more doors on Commerce Street ?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. One of them leads to the engine room. Are you familiar with that door?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Another one leads into the subbasement. Are you familiar with that door?
Mr. ARNETT. Now, that's the one I am talking about I came in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You went down into the subbasement?
Mr. ARNETT. See here, this is Commerce Street, and you walk down a flight of steps, and there is a door, and you are going right towards the records building.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, there is a subbasement to that building?
Mr. ARNETT. No; I misunderstand what you are talking about.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you familiar with the subbasement in the where the police officers' locker room is?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes. Oh, yes. If that's what you are talking about.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Were you aware of the fact that there was a door that led up from the subbasement right up under the stairs, on the Commerce Street side?
Mr. ARNETT. I don't know whether I understand what you mean or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You walk off of the sidewalk on Commerce Street
Mr. ARNETT. And go down in the basement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And go down in the basement, you get down there in the basement and there is a door that goes into the hallway that runs up to the records room?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there are two other doors in that area. One of them is, if I am not mistaken, off to the fight, as you face the hallway, and that goes into the engine room; and there is another area--door, rather, sort of at your back, as you look down that hallway, and that goes down in the subbasement. Were you aware of that?
Mr. ARNETT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you would have no recollection of whether any of the TV wires were strung any place except through the hallway to the records room?
Mr. ARNETT. No; I sure wouldn't.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Now, when you entered there, where did you go--and got inside the building?
Mr. ARNETT. I Saw Lieutenant Wiggins, and he asked me if I could replace one of his regular men that was out there behind the TV cameras that--in other words, this is the basement [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I think I can help you out here. Here is a diagram of the basement, and here is the jail office and here is the parking area, here is the ramp from Main Street, here is the ramp going up to Commerce Street [indicating].
Mr. ARNETT. We have, got it turned right around to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, whichever way is easiest for you. All right. Now, this is coming down from Main. That's Main [indicating].
Mr. ARNETT. This is Commerce going out?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That's right.
Mr. ARNETT. All right. The TV cameras were set up right in here. They wanted to keep this open here. They didn't want any cars parking in here [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me draw two TV cameras; is that about where they were have got them there [indicating]?
Mr. ARNETT Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, behind the TV cameras--
Mr. ARNETT. It's wide enough for two automobiles to park.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Was there a man stationed behind those two TV
Mr. ARNETT. There was a regular and they needed him out there, so I put a reserve officer out there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that reserve officer that you put there?
Mr. ARNETT. Worley.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right Now, I am going to put an X--well, you put an X on the map where you think Worley was, and write his name in there, if you will, please.
Mr. ARNETT. [Spelling] W-o--
Mr. GRIFFIN. [ Spelling] W-o-r-l-e-y. Now what's your best estimate of what time it was that you put Worley in
there?
Mr. ARNETT. Shortly after 9 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to say whatever it was, 9:15, whatever you think it was?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, this may not be exact on the minute, but it will be within [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Okay.
Mr. ARNETT. I am going to put 9:10 [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Mr. ARNETT. Because I did it as quick as I could after I was asked to.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, what did you do after you placed Worley at that spot?
Mr. ARNETT. I went into the assembly room, and there were a few men in there. I walked back outside and I believe that I talked to some captain that needed five men down at the Elm-Houston Street viaduct, and I went back in and asked them if they could send five men down there and they said yes. They assigned five men to go down there and they were sent down there in a squad car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after that?
Mr. ARNETT. After that, I got some more men out of the assembly room. They were just coming in, you know, and Sergeant Dean and Sergeant Putnam, we searched the basement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did you accompany Sergeant Dean?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you accompany him all the way around?
Mr. ARNETT. In this area, I did [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. That's the area, sort of the Main Street portion?
Mr. ARNETT. That's it (indicating).

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go with Sergeant Dean to the area that's marked on the map stairs up, behind elevators No. I and No. 2.
Mr. ARNETT. Did I go up the stairs?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No. Did you go to that area with him?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, this is the area I covered with him, from here, all this right in here [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. The reporter can't see that, but you are indicating--we have to get this down in words, so that the members of the Commission, Chief Justice Warren and so forth will understand what we are talking about here.
Mr. ARNETT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating that you searched with Sergeant Dean that portion of the garage which includes the elevators No. 1 and No. 2 and the door- way to the stair up, correct?
Mr. ARNETT. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got to those elevators, what did you and Sergeant Dean do?
Mr. ARNETT. As we searched them out, we placed men in this area as we searched it out, there was a regular officer stationed here [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Regular officer stationed--
Mr. ARNETT. At the elevators [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to put on the map where that regular officer was, and put an X there?
Mr. ARNETT. It was here in front of these elevators [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to write regular officer--do you know his name?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I don't. [Spelling] R-e-g-u-l-a-r
Mr. GRIFFIN. Regular, yes. All right. Now, were these elevators operating, these elevators No. 1 and No. 2, were they in operation?
Mr. ARNETT. I couldn't say whether they were or not. They wasn't working at the time I was there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. You didn't see any boys, Negro boys in there?
Mr. ARNETT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there a door at this entranceway to the stairs up?
Mr. ARNETT. Did you say are there a door there?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there a door there; do you remember if there is a door there?
Mr. ARNETT. There is a door here that goes into this [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Into the first aid station?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. But now, I couldn't say whether there are or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Do you recall what investigation was made in the area of that doorway there, toward the stairs up? What check you and Sergeant Dean made?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, they probably were finishing their investigation here and we were back over here. There is a building extends out from the walls, and it doesn't go completely back against this ramp. There is room for a man to walk in there, and I went and got a flashlight and---
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I want to talk about this area right here. Do you recall whether you and Sergeant Dean went over to that doorway that leads to the stairs up?
Mr. ARNETT. I didn't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't go?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Right. Did you go to that. area where the first-aid station is?
Mr. ARNETT. I didn't make that part of the search there. We started and came around this way, searched all these cars down through here, and this building back here that I am telling you about, that doesn't extend against the wall. I went and got a flashlight and Sergeant _ _ _ _ _I will think of his name in a minute, reserve. His name starts with a H.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, that's okay. His name isn't necessary. You went back there searched the----
Mr. ARNETT. We taken a flashlight in there and I held the flashlight for him, and he got up in there and I give him the flashlight, and he taken the flashlight and walked all back in here. There was room for a man to walk in there [indicating].

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Mr. GRIFFIN. The area you are indicating is an area behind the jail office----
Mr. ARNETT. No; it's not behind it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, here is the jail office [indicating].
Mr. ARNETT. Well, the one I am talking about, here is the ramp, see, and the one I am talking about is like this, doesn't go completely against the ramp. There is room for a man to walk in behind there [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, other than this northern portion of the basement, did you search any other area with Sergeant Dean?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I stayed right in here. Some more reserves came in [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell me where I was?
(The record was here read by the reporter.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. After you searched the basement, where did you go?
Mr. ARNETT. After I searched this portion of the basement [indicating]?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. ARNETT. I stayed right here. That's where the cars come in and out [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you place an A where you stationed yourself after the search of the basement, and would you put a circle around that; would you write around that, after search of basement [indicating]?
Mr. ARNETT. [Spelling] B-a-s-p----
Mr. GRIFFIN. [Spelling] B-a-s-e-m-e-n-t. Now, captain, how long did you remain there at that position?
Mr. ARNETT. Oh, it seems like 10 or 15 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then where did you go?
Mr. ARNETT. J.C. Hunt took my place, another reserve officer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Replaced by J. C. Hunt?
Mr. ARNETT. Hunt.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After about 15 minutes. Now, then where did you go?
Mr. ARNETT. I had sent some men outside----
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; where did you go?
Mr. ARNETT. I went to different ones that were, you know, around in here, of the reserves [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. You circulated in the basement?
Mr. ARNETT. In the basement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you make assignments?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What assignments did you make?
Mr. ARNETT. I sent Sergeant Cox and Sergeant _ _ _ _ this little sergeant that I was trying to name while ago--Could I call the man and ask him that boy's name?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That's not really important.
Mr. ARNETT. It isn't?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; did you assign people outside of the building?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make assignments to the various intersections?
Mr. ARNETT. To keep people back. They were over here on the Commerce south-side street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. ARNETT. Keep people back off, on the sidewalk, and not let them on the street [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. You sent all your men to Commerce?
Mr. ARNETT. No; not all of them. I sent three men up there at that particular time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you send your other men?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, earlier, before this, I sent one to Commerce and Pearl to work a signal light that had gone out of order.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever assign anybody to Main and Pearl?
Mr. ARNETT. Main and Pearl?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

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Mr. ARNETT. I don't believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever assign anybody to Elm and Pearl?
Mr. ARNETT. Not before the shooting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you make any assignments on Elm Street?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you make any assignment on Main Street?
Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember of any. I did have a man in front of the Credit Building--what do they call it, the Employees Credit Association or Credit Union or something another. I did have a man up on the ramp of it. That's out on Commerce Street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you assign Mr. Newman to a place in the basement?
Mr. ARNETT. I didn't make the assignment myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you leave the basement at any time after this particular period that we are talking about, when you made these assignments, did you leave the basement area?
Mr. ARNETT. I don't believe so. Not until after the shooting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. While you were in the basement, were you in the garage and ramp area the entire time?
Mr. ARNETT. After I left this particular spot here [indicating]?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; where we marked the A?
Mr. ARNETT. I was in this area right in here, and about 11:05 I took my stand right in here [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you spent your entire time then in the
Mr. ARNETT. Basement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Area between the entrance to the garage at the bottom of the Commerce Street ramp and the portion where the Main Street ramp narrows at the bottom, or widens out at the bottom?
Mr. ARNETT. [No response.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you put a mark on the map where you were, where you stationed yourself at about 11:05?
Mr. ARNETT. Let's see if we understand each other here on this. Is this the office where they come out of the jail [indicating]?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, it is.
Mr. ARNETT. And this comes out so far and then this is the ramp [indicating]?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, it is.
Mr. ARNETT. All right. I was right along in here then [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put an A there, also?
Mr. ARNETT. Okay [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. And put a circle around that.
Mr. ARNETT. All right [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you mark the time that you think you first arrived?
Mr. ARNETT. I would say 11:05.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How do you fix that time 11:05?
Mr. ARNETT. I believe I looked at my watch.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you write up a report on this on November 24?
Mr. ARNETT. Did I write it up?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. ARNETT. I made the statement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you write a letter to Chief Curry?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, that's the letter [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you didn't mention in that letter anything about 11:05. Was the first time that you thought about 11:05 when you were interviewed by the FBI agents on December 4?
Mr. ARNETT. You mean was that the first time I thought about it being 11:05 when I went there?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. ARNETT. Well, no; I wouldn't say it was the first time I thought about it. It might have been that I didn't think about it when I was writing that letter.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, captain, if you were to place the time that you stationed

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yourself here, in terms of how much before---well, in terms of the time that the armored car was in the ramp, did you place yourself before or---
Mr. ARNETT. It was here before I went there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. This was after the armored car arrived?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long before Lee Oswald was brought down?
Mr. ARNETT. After I placed myself over there?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. ARNETT. Well, around 15 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what time Oswald was brought down?
Mr. ARNETT. I know what time the ambulance was called.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time was that?
Mr. ARNETT. 11:21.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you stationed yourself at that point, were the floodlights from the TV cameras on ?
Mr. ARNETT. Were they on?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. ARNETT. If I remember right, they had been on all the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. They had been on all the time?
Mr. ARNETT. They wasn't alive all the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean the cameras weren't alive?
Mr. ARNETT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you searched the basement, were the floodlights on from those TV cameras?
Mr. ARNETT. Well now, whether they were on or not, I don't know. I believe the machine was lighted up. Now, whether that's what you call.
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I mean the floodlights.
Mr. ARNETT. Well, I am not going to say either way on that, because I am not going to tell you anything I don't think is the truth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure the floodlights were on when you stationed yourself at the point that we have marked as point A at the bottom of the ramp?
Mr. ARNETT. I would say lights were on. Now, whether they were floodlights or not, I couldn't tell you. I don't know whether you say just a light fitting there was a floodlight or the lights in the camera or
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I am talking about the lights they use to illuminate the picture they are going to take, throw out on the subject?
Mr. ARNETT. I will say the cameras had a light in them. I will say that. Now, whether you call them floodlights or not, I don't know. Now, they tell me that they can be on and not be taking pictures unless there is a red light burning. Now, whether that's true or not, I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Over where these TV cameras are. were there some lights placed in association with those cameras?
Mr. ARNETT. All I can remember of, and I am trying to tell you the truth--
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. ARNETT. Is that the light was on in the camera. You know what I mean, that [indicating] was burning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't know if you have taken home movies or anything like that, or just had your picture taken in a photographer's studio, often they beam a lot of lights down?
Mr. ARNETT. I know what you are talking about there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any lights like that over by these TV cameras?
Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember any like that, but they had to be for it to be alive, I guess, but I don't remember them being on when this happened.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before Oswald came out you were where we put this A at the bottom of the ramp, when you had occasion to look off into the garage area, was it possible to distinguish objects, or distinguish people or cars in there?
Mr. ARNETT. There was a ear came out the ramp, after we got in line, and went out the ramp on North Main, up the ramp, out on North Main. We broke up
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to ask you this simple question, as you looked out

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over in there; could you see cars or people or anything over behind those TV cameras; could you see anything beyond those TV cameras?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, I saw this car that was coming out. Now, that was before Lee Oswald was brought down.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But did you see that car before it came out of the garage?
Mr. ARNETT. I saw it coming out of the ramp.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did you see it before it came to the ramp?
Mr. ARNETT. I don't believe I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. So do you have any recollection as to whether you could see objects in that area?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I don't, I sure don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you watched that car come out of the garage?
Mr. ARNETT. Uh huh.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where did you watch it go?
Mr. ARNETT. It went out the Main Street entrance, up the ramp.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you see it get to the top of the ramp?
Mr. ARNETT. I didn't look at it as it entered the top of the ramp. We were getting back into position, but we did have to break up, because we were all the way across the ramp, and we had to break up for it to go out, but you know how you would do, you would back up against the wall or something out of the way, for it to go by.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you say you had to break up. Was there a line formed across there before the car came out?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, we were standing just, you know, side of one another all the way across there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that Sam Pierce's car?
Mr. ARNETT. They say it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. They say it was. Do you remember how many people were in that car?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this the last car that came out of the garage before Lee Oswald was shot?
Mr. ARNETT. There was one come out and backed up in position.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but was that the last one that went up the Main Street ramp ?
Mr. ARNETT. I said there was two cars to start with, and some of them said there wasn't but one, and I said I guess there was just one, but I thought at that time I remembered two cars going out, but I am not going to swear that there were, because I could be wrong about that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I know that, but I want to know just what you remember and whatever your recollection is. Then we will try to see how good it really is. But what do you think you saw when this car--you say you think you saw two cars go up the ramp?
Mr. ARNETT. I think so. That's my honest opinion about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That's what I want. Now, when you saw that first car go up the ramp, how long would you say after the first car went up did the second car go up ?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, it wasn't very long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did you watch that first car go up the ramp?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you were standing here where we have marked the A and as you looked over toward the armored car, did you have occasion to look over at that armored car?
Mr. ARNETT. It was straight in front of me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That was up near the top of the Commerce Street ramp, wasn't it?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir; or just inside. I don't believe it was all the way under the shed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Chief Batchelor up there?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Captain Butler up there?
Mr. ARNETT. Captain Butler?

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember Captain Butler.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Sergeant Dean, did you see him up in that area? Sergeant Dean.
Mr. ARNETT. I believe I did. There was a bottle fell out of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see the bottle fall out?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you actually see the bottle from where you were standing?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you had occasion to look up the Main Street ramp--
Mr. ARNETT. Well now, my back was to the Main Street ramp.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Not the entire time; there were times when you looked up that too, wasn't there? You were down there for quite awhile?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, I don't remember just, you know, turning around, and looking back up that way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember whether or not there was an officer stationed up there?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir; there was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him up there?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you know who he was ?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; he was a regular officer, though.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know that?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, a regular officer patrolman has a green patch on his shoulder up here. A reserve officer has a white patch; a radio accident investigator has a rod patch. I believe traffic wears a brown. He was a regular patrolman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see him before he got up to the top of that ramp?
Mr. ARNETT. Did I See him before he got up there?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. ARNETT. You mean did I see him going up there? Now, I may have seen him in the basement, before he was sent up there. I don't know about that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have remembered him, though; do you remember seeing him in the basement before he was sent up?
Mr. ARNETT. Not that I recall; no sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember seeing him walk up the ramp?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So from where you were standing, I take it you could see the green patch on his
Mr. ARNETT. Uh-huh.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Coat. And you wear glasses, don't you?
Mr. ARNETT. Not all the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you wearing glasses that time?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; I use them mostly to read with or some work like this [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is your eyesight without glasses 20-20?
Mr. ARNETT. No, Sir; if they was I wouldn't be wearing glasses.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you still tell me---
Mr. ARNETT. I see off at a distance good, but I can't see to read a newspaper or something, a fine print or something close to me, but off at a distance---I drive without glasses.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You and I are sitting here maybe 6 or 8 feet away. Take off your glasses. Do you have any trouble seeing me [indicating]?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir; not a bit. Where I have my trouble is fine print and
something like that [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Take your glasses off a second.
Mr. ARNETT. Okay [complying].
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hold up something here, and do you see a colored spot on there [indicating]?
Mr. ARNETT. I See a rod one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And I am holding this dictaphone package, about 10 feet away from you, aren't I [indicating]?

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Mr. ARNETT. I would say something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how many red spots do you see on there?
Mr. ARNETT. I only see one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. One big one?
Mr. ARNETT. Well----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or one blurred one?
Mr. ARNETT. I don't know what you call a big one. It's about like my little finger, end of it [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell what sort of shape it is?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does it look like a triangle or an arrow?
Mr. ARNETT. It looks like it goes up to a point and comes down to a point and goes straight across the bottom [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record that is pretty good for a man born in 1911. This thing that I am holding up is a red arrow which appears on the back of a Dictaphone belt holder, and this arrow, the stem part of the arrow is not more than a quarter of an inch long. The pointed part of the arrow is unquestionably the most prominent part of it. I am going to ask you to hold it up and I am going to stand back here and I will tell you that I have got my glasses on, but I am not corrected at 20-20 vision. If I didn't know how that came up I would have some difficulty telling what that is [indicating].
Mr. ARNETT. Is that right?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I think that's pretty good. So you could see this man's green patch on his----
Mr. ARNETT. That's right. He was a patrolman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, did you ever have occasion to look up that ramp? How many times did you have occasion to look up that ramp?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, it's like I say, I don't remember just turning around and, you know, just looking up the ramp, but maybe walking into this place to get into position or something or other, I was facing that way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sort of looking around generally up there; I mean as you walked around in this area we have marked "A," did you from time to time glance up in this general direction?
Mr. ARNETT. From where you marked "A," I couldn't see from there. You are talking about this "A" here [indicating]?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I am talking about this "A" here at the bottom of the ramp [indicating].
Mr. ARNETT. Oh, yes. I could from there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you glance up from time to time?
Mr. ARNETT. I won't say I did, because I don't remember whether I did or didn't. More than likely I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now; did you glance back at the TV cameras from time to time?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, I would say I did; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after this second car moved out, did you have occasion to glance over at the TV cameras at any time, toward the TV cameras at any time?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, I would say, just right offhand, I would say I looked around, but as far as just watching the TV cameras, I didn't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you observe what any other officers were doing in your area on that side of the ramp?
Mr. ARNETT. There was a man to the side of me, to my right, that was in
civilian clothes, and was a news reporter that had a microphone in his hand.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he to your right or was he in front of you ?
Mr. ARNETT. He was to my right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Directly to your right. Now, where was Officer Harrison?
Mr. ARNETT. Right in front of me and a little to my left. In other words, we were standing facing this direction and Officer Harrison was more or less like this. I was looking over his right shoulder [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were looking over his right shoulder. Were you pressed right up against him at the time Lee Oswald moved out?

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Mr. ARNETT. I wouldn't say I was pressed against him. I was directly---- you know, next to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody behind you?
Mr. ARNETT. Not that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to state for the record that we have here a Mr. Robert Davis with the attorney general's office with the State of Texas, who has been sitting in on these hearings, and he just walked into the room, and I am holding up, at about the same distance that I held this thing from Captain Arnett--is that right, Captain Arnett [indicating]?
Mr. ARNETT. That's right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am holding this about the same distance from Mr. Davis, and I am asking him if he sees any colored items on the back of this Dictaphone card that I am holding up [indicating]?
Mr. DAVIS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many colored things do you see?
Mr. DAVIS. Six.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He has got better---
Mr. DAVIS. Five dots and a colored arrow.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as far as this arrow was concerned, how would you describe that arrow; can you see the stem on the arrow?
Mr. DAVIS. See what?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Stem on the arrow.
Mr. DAVIS. Yes; it's fat, kind of heavy, bulky stem on the arrow. Looks more like a house turned on its side than its does an arrow.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you got 20-20 vision?
Mr. DAVIS. (Nods head.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't wear glasses?
Mr. DAVIS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The record should reflect he did a better job than you. Let me ask you this, Captain Arnett: I am going to ask you to step to the back of the room over there.
Mr. ARNETT. Back where?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Step over to the doorway there.
Mr. ARNETT. Okay.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, take your glasses off. You didn't have them on. I am going to hold up a card here, and can you see the colors on that card?
Mr. ARNETT. I see green and white [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. See any other colors [indicating] ?
Mr. ARNETT. There is a little lighter up at the top of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell me whether you see any objects on there or whether you see a circle or a band or something exact or what do you see on there [indicating]?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, to that end I see something light running up and down, in the upper part of it, just a portion of it is a lighter--kind of a blue color. Then it's a green, then down closer to your thumb it's white [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, let me state for the record that what I held up was a Mobil gas credit card, which has in the top half of it a band that has a blue background on it, and against that blue background there is a picture of a Mobil gas station, which is white, and some background scenery which runs behind the Mobil station in some sort of a band, which is green, looks like grass and trees, and just above the blue field there is a completely white area, and in that white area there is written the word credit card, and there is a Mobil gas seal. I think that is a fair description of what's on this card [indicating].
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you are now seated close enough to me now that you can see it with your glasses on [indicating] ?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Davis, do you think that is a fair description of it?
Mr. DAVIS. Yes; I think that is a fair description of it.
Mr. ARNETT. Do you think I got anywhere close to it?
Mr. DAVIS. Yes; I think so.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand there was nobody standing behind you?
Mr. ARNETT. Not that I know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody directly to your left?
Mr. ARNETT. To my left?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; as you faced the direction that Lee Oswald was coming
Mr. ARNETT. There was another reporter with a pencil and pad to my left. Then I said Captain King and another man beyond him that I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were these people in the same line that Blackie Harrison was in?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. They were in the line with me. Blackie Harrison was in front of me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to mark this "Dallas, Tex., Captain Arnett, 3-25-64," and this is Exhibit 5034, and I am going to start another one here.
All right. Now, Captain, I want you to put an "A" on this copy of the map
where you were standing, put an "A" where you were standing when Oswald came out [indicating]?
Mr. ARNETT. Okay. Now, this is the brick building here. Now, I want to be sure that I am looking at this right [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. ARNETT. Okay. There was a news reporter [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, put an "A" where you were standing.
Mr. ARNETT. [Indicating.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, put an H in the circle around it where Blackie Harrison was standing.
Mr. ARNETT. [Indicating.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, who was the other officer that you said was to your left?
Mr. ARNETT. A. news reporter and Captain King, and I don't know where this other one was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Put a "K" where Captain King was standing, and put an "X" where that newspaper reporter was.
Mr. ARNETT. [Indicating.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was there anybody between Captain King and the railing?
Mr. ARNETT. There was. one person, but I couldn't tell you whether he was in civilian clothes or who they Were or anything about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Put a question mark there. All right. You put a question there.
Mr. ARNETT. Got it wrong, didn't I? [Indicating.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you have changed it. You put a dot to your right where there was a newsman?
Mr. ARNETT. Uh-huh [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this the man that had the microphone?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody in front of that man?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes. They were lined up down this wall here. I don't know whether there was anybody standing directly in front of him. I wouldn't say [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody directly to Blackie Harrison's left?
Mr. ARNETT. I would say they were.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't remember?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to remember these people that you put on the chart here?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, standing there with them, well---
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see photographs, did you see movies of this after Oswald was shot?
Mr. ARNETT. I have seen them; yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see---
Mr. ARNETT. That didn't have any bearing on that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to see yourself in those movies?
Mr. ARNETT. I am in some magazines.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. You were able to see yourself in the magazines?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And is that how you were able to distinguish---
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Those people ?
Mr. ARNETT. Huh, uh. This letter that was written the 27th was before films or magazines, either one. Now, do the magazine shots which you have seen, in which you have seen yourself, do they show the man to your left, who you thought was a newsman?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do they show Captain King?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How is it that just you come through on these magazine shots?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, I don't know how they come through, but the Dallas Morning News and the Times Herald that had the big complete picture, all the front page was completely covered, I am not in it. Now, this newsman that was on my right, it shows the microphone but it doesn't show me at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What magazine did you see yourself in?
Mr. ARNETT. Four Dark Days in History, Four Days, Kennedy From Childhood to---I don't remember just exactly what it did say on that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you happen to remember in Four Dark Days, what page your picture was on?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. But if you got one I can show it to you, but it's not before the shooting, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh, this is the shot that's taken after the shooting?
Mr. ARNETT. Shows me scuffling with---
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you haven't seen a picture of yourself standing there in that line, have you?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, where did you see that picture?
Mr. ARNETT. In Four Days.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In Four Days you saw that?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. And it didn't show anybody standing beside me, either.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does it show Blackie Harrison in that picture?
Mr. ARNETT. I believe it does.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, there is only one picture of you in Four Days?
Mr. ARNETT. In Four Days?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. ARNETT. No. There is three.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Three pictures of you?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are they all on the same page?
Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember for sure whether they are on the same page or not, but they are in the same connection.
Mr. GRIFFIN. They are all in connection with the shooting?
Mr. ARNETT. Do you want me to tell you what they are?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. ARNETT. One of them shows me standing like I told you. The next one shows me in the scuffle with Jack Ruby from here up, doesn't show any other part (indicating).
Mr. GRIFFIN. Just shows the top of your head?
Mr. ARNETT. From right here up. The next one shows the top of my cap, from my back, following Oswald out to the ambulance. That's it [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. There is only one that shows you standing there?
Mr. ARNETT. That's the only one I have seen.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does it show anything but your rice?
Mr. ARNETT. From about right here up [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. About the middle of your chest up?
Mr. ARNETT. Something like that. One in Four Days in History shows me standing looking down like this, and L. C. Graves is wrestling with the gun, before I took hold of Ruby.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, did you see Ruby move forward out of the crowd?
Mr. ARNETT. Not out of the crowd. He was in front of me before I saw him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him move in front of you?
Mr. ARNETT. I can give you an illustration better than I can tell you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Illustrate.
Mr. ARNETT. Okay. I was standing like this, facing this way (indicating).
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, let's put Mr. Davis up in front of you, about where Blackie Harrison was.
Mr. ARNETT. All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You place him up there. And Oswald is going to be to your right.
Mr. ARNETT. I was looking over his shoulder [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Mr. ARNETT. The first thing
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were about that far away from him [indicating]?
Mr. ARNETT. Something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were about 4 inches away from Blackie Harrison?
Mr. ARNETT. I would say something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And looking over his right shoulder?
Mr. ARNETT. That's right. Lee Oswald came out----[indicating]----
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are looking to your right?
Mr. ARNETT. To my right. Lee Oswald came out, the two detectives, Leavelle and Graves, Leavelle was handcuffed to Oswald. Graves was on the left side of him, had him by the arm. The first time I saw Jack Ruby he was just about in this position, just pow, that's just how quick it happened.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you get back there in the position where you first saw Jack.
Mr. ARNETT. [Indicating.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. No. You get where you saw Jack [indicating].
Mr. ARNETT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that about how far Jack was from----
Mr. ARNETT. From Oswald when I saw him, I guess [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that how far he was from Harrison?
Mr. ARNETT. He might have been a little further out this way from him, but (indicating).
Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, the first time you saw Ruby, Ruby was standing forward, he was standing between--in front of Harrison in the direction of the Commerce Street ramp?
Mr. ARNETT. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But he was off to Harrison's left?
Mr. ARNETT. He was to Harrison's left a little bit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What direction was Ruby facing when you saw him?
Mr. ARNETT. Just as you and I [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Facing almost directly at Oswald?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At that point?
Mr. ARNETT. In this position [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see anybody standing behind his back?
Mr. ARNETT. Did I see anybody behind Ruby's back?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. ARNETT, No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, who would have been directly--as you are standing, directly toward Ruby's right, which would be up the Main Street ramp, who would have been standing right in that position along the row that you were in, directly to Ruby's right, toward the Main Street ramp [indicating]?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, I named this newsman with a pad, I mean, I said--I didn't know his name. I said he was to my right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To your left?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes; left.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, that man was to your left. Was Ruby right in front of him or was he right in front of Captain King?

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Mr. ARNETT. Well, he was just to the left of Blackie Harrison. Now, whether he was out in front in this manner right in front of King, I wouldn't say for certain [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to state whether Ruby was a different man from the man you saw next to you holding the pad?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, yes; I would say he was a different man.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How are you able to state that?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, I don't believe the newsman was dressed like Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But did you see that newsman again?
Mr. ARNETT. Did I see him again; is that the question?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. After the shooting?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, I couldn't say whether I did or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you describe the dress of that newsman; did he have on a hat?
Mr. ARNETT. I don't believe he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he wear glasses?
Mr. ARNETT. I couldn't say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a suit on?
Mr. ARNETT. I thought he had a kind of raincoat, jacket on, something of that type.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you see that man around before Oswald was shot?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, I had been in this position, I said 15 minutes, and so far as I know Blackie Harrison had been standing in front of me all that time, and this man beside me, I believe, had been there all this time. I believe they had all been there all this time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, about I minute before Oswald was shot there was a car that drove up and split the lines up?
Mr. ARNETT. That's right. I don't know whether it was I minute.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But shortly before?
Mr. ARNETT. Shortly before there was; yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that man standing over next to you before the car went up the ramp; was that man in the raincoat next to you before the car went up the ramp?
Mr. ARNETT. I believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure of that?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, I think he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think he was?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, I think I remember him being there with me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to Captain King about this man?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long did you remain in the police building after the shooting of Oswald?
Mr. ARNETT. After the shooting?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. ARNETT. Whenever he shot Oswald, I made a dive for him, and L. C. Graves, the detective, had him, and he had him like this, had the gun like this, and they were scuffling. I got him by the leg. I don't know what leg I got him by, but I got him by the leg, and I would say there were seven or eight of us had ahold of him. We carried him back into the jail office, and while we had him down, handcuffed, he said, "I am Jack Ruby. All of you know me." They had him handcuffed by that time. I turned him loose and walked back over here where Oswald was laying [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, let me ask you this: how long were' you in the building the rest of the day?
Mr. ARNETT. I believe I went home about 1:30.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, by the time you went home had you heard any rumors about how Ruby got down into that basement?
Mr. ARNETT. That day?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. ARNETT. I don't believe so. I have heard rumors since then, but I didn't that day.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let the record reflect that Mr. Davis has left the room, and I hope the record reflects that we had a short break, a very short break, about 2
minutes, and we are back and ready to go. Would you read the last part back?
(The record was here read by the reporter.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark for identification, Dallas, Tex, Captain nett, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5035, and I am going to hand this to you. I am going to ask you, Captain Arnett, if what I am showing you is the dictaphone belt case with
the red arrow on it that you identified earlier in the testimony [indicating]?
Mr. ARNETT. Do you want me to initial it [indicating]?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is the side which I have got the identification on the side that I showed you?
Mr. ARNETT. It was up like this. Yes [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean the side [indicating].
Mr. ARNETT. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you sign that?
Mr. ARNETT. Just sign it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. Okay. Now, I am also going to mark for identification, Dallas, Tex. Captain Arnett, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5036. Now, this is the diagram of the basement on which you placed markings indicating where you and Harrison and King and the reporter were standing, [indicating] ?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Just before Oswald came out?
Mr. ARNETT. [Nods head.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, just before Oswald came out, did you see a man right next to Blackie Harrison's left?
Mr. ARNETT. To his left?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. ARNETT. As he would face up Commerce Street?
Mr. GRIFFIN. As Blackie would face Commerce Street, did you see a man to his left?
Mr. ARNETT. Well now, there were men out, you know, on the camera and stuff, to his left, if that's what you are talking about.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody standing to his left, other than men manning the cameras?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, I wouldn't say for certain that I did, because he may have been the last one in that row, I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, he was in the front row, wasn't he; Blackie?
Mr. ARNETT. He was in front of me; yes. And I would say he was in the front row, but---
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a solid line of people between Blackie and the TV cameras, in the row that Blackie was standing in?
Mr. ARNETT. It seems to me like there was somebody by the side of Blackie, but I am not going to say that there were because the first time I saw Jack Ruby he was to his left, coming up. Now, whether there was somebody right beside of Blackie Harrison, I am not going to say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The first time you saw Jack he was sort of hunched over with the gun?
Mr. ARNETT. He was hunched over. He was in this position, and whenever he shot him he went down like that [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Ruby when he was moving toward Oswald ?
Mr. ARNETT. I saw him moving from where I told you, up to Oswald.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Ruby standing still?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall whether there was a solid line of people or how that line of people was from Blackie Harrison on to the TV cameras?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, like I said, I think there was somebody the other side of him, but I am not going to be certain about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, were there any other police officers up in the same row that Blackie Harrison was in?

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Mr. ARNETT. They were people lined up all the way up the wall and on this they were lined all the way up to the edge of it [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFEN. Let me ask you this, Captain Arnett, did you receive instructions came out as to where these newspaper people were to stand?
Mr. ARNETT. Where the newspaper--no; I did not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you present when some men convened around Officer Jones, Captain Jones, prior to Oswald's coming down, when Jones gave some instructions?
Mr. ARNETT. Sergeant Jones?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No. Captain Jones.
Mr. ARNETT. Captain Jones. I remember seeing Captain Jones there, but I don't remember any group being around him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did you have any instructions to the effect that you were not to permit newspaper people to be over here on the Main Street side?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir. I did not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any instructions that you were to try to keep these newspaper people over toward the entrance of the garage?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, what instructions did you have as to what you were to do there?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, the main instructions I had was to---when we was placing these men around, searching the building, see that there was nobody in there at all, other than was supposed to be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But that was an hour before?
Mr. ARNETT. That's right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you knew Oswald was going to come out that door from the jail, jail office?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you have some idea that you were supposed to keep the area free?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, wasn't supposed to let anybody in there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if newspaper people had crowded up in front of him, did you have any instructions as to what you were to do?
Mr. ARNETT. I didn't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you know if any of the other people had instructions like that?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you write the report that has been marked as Exhibit 5033?
Mr. ARNETT. When did I write it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. ARNETT That one was--let me see, now. That happened on Sunday, I went to Tippit's funeral on Monday, I went to Corpus Christi on Monday night, I was in Corpus on Tuesday. I believe I wrote that on Wednesday [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Right. Now, Sunday was the 24th.---
Mr. ARNETT. Monday would have been the 25th, Tuesday the 26th, be the 27th.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you indicate on here, would you put composed November 27, and initial that [indicating]?
Mr. ARNETT. How do you spoil composed?
Mr. GRIFFIN. [Spelling] C-o-m-p-o-s-e-d.
Mr. ARNETT [Spelling] C-o-m-p-----
Mr. GRIFFIN. [Spelling]---o-s-e-d.
Mr. ARNETT. November 27?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. Okay. Now, in between this time, in between the time that you left the police building on the 24th and the time you prepared this statement, did you talk with any of the members of the police department about the events?
Mr. ARNETT. You mean how it was---how they were set up or something?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No. Any conversations--did you talk with any of the police officers?
Mr. ARNETT. Well now, on Monday, after this on Sunday, I was down there

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and called some men to meet me out at the Baptist Church on Beckley, to work traffic for the Tippit funeral. I talked to Lieutenant Pierce. He asked me if I would get some reserves out there to help, that they was going to need some, and I said I will call and get some and go out there myself, and I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with Pierce about the things that had happened on November 24?
Mr. ARNETT. Not that I know of now. Not that I remember about. We were talking about this one particular area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you ever talk with Pierce at that time, prior to the time you wrote this statement, did you ever talk with Pierce about how Ruby got into the basement?
Mr. ARNETT. I don't know whether I did prior to that letter or not. I have heard since then that when Lieutenant Pierce drove out, that the officers stepped out to stop the traffic and that Jack Ruby said that's when he walked in. Now, when I heard that I couldn't say, the date, but I don't know, but I have heard that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you prepared the statement, did you talk with any of the reserves or any members of the police department, about how Ruby might have got down in the basement?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, it seems that maybe some people would say, well, he must have come in with a camera or something, you know, like that. As far as just individuals talking to anybody about .it, I don't remember, you know, just particularly talking about that one thing of how he got in there. But I am confident that he wasn't in there. I am confident of that, as I am that Jack Ruby shot Oswald, and I saw that. I may be wrong about it, but now, that's just the way I feel about it, that he wasn't in that basement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you think he was?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, I don't know where he was. But as far as him being in there any length of time, I just don't believe he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have seen him if he came across the railing?
Mr. ARNETT. Would I have seen him?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. ARNETT. Well, it seems like I would have, but I don't know that I would have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you think you would have?
Mr. ARNETT Well, you know, if you are just looking off, like this, and something happens over here in 10 or 12 feet of you, you will almost
Mr. GRIFFIN. Wasn't your attention focused almost all the time after Pierce's car went up the ramp, wasn't your attention focused towards the Jail office?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, I would say yes, most of the time, but you can just let anything--you can be driving down the road and a bird or something fly by, you will get a glance of it, and I believe if he had come over that rail I would have got the glance off of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you see things happening over by that railing?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, I am not going to say that you could or you couldn't, but I believe if he had come over that railing, I believe I would have saw him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, if he had come over the railing behind the line that you were standing in you wouldn't have seen him, would you?
Mr. ARNETT. No. Sure wouldn't have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. If you were drawing a straight line across your shoulders--well, let's not do it that way. You have got this thing marked on the map here where the A is and where I placed the TV cameras. If you were drawing a straight line across the Main Street ramp, where would that line---how far would that line have come from the TV cameras that I have placed here [indicating]?
Mr. ARNETT. How far would it come?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. In other words, how far up the [indicating]----
Mr. ARNETT. I would say a straight line behind the cameras would have been about like Mr. Davis from me [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am asking you here, I am asking you to tell me about how far up the Main Street ramp you were standing from the TV cameras; would

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you say that the TV cameras and you were the same distance up the Main Street ramp or they were a little bit in front of you?
Mr. ARNETT. They were a little in front of me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much; by a little bit, would you say?
Mr. ARNETT. Well, 5 feet.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe 5 feet in front of you. Could they have been less than 5 feet?
Mr. ARNETT. I don't believe they would have been. They could have. I am just roughly guessing now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were there people congregated around those TV cameras, in front of those TV cameras?
Mr. ARNETT. In front of it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember any of them being in front of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about along the sides of the TV cameras?
Mr. ARNETT. If I remember right, there was a man at each one of the cameras, operating it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But there weren't other people crowded down around them?
Mr. ARNETT. Not that I remember; no, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, wouldn't Captain King and that newspaperman have blocked your side vision over in the direction of the TV cameras?
Mr. ARNETT. It could have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If Jack Ruby had walked down that Main Street ramp would you have seen him?
Mr. ARNETT. Not without turning around and looking back, I wouldn't have; no, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any occasion to turn back and look around after Rio Pierce's car went up?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you mean you don't remember or----
Mr. ARNETT. I don't remember looking around, no sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody suggest to you before you wrote this statement that you should have seen Ruby in there?
Mr. ARNETT. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody ask you if you did see Ruby in there before you wrote this statement?
Mr. ARNETT. Other than I just said, I saw him just like I have told you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who asked you to write this statement?
Mr. ARNETT. Captain Solomon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did Captain Solomon ever ask you before you wrote the statement whether you saw Ruby in there?
Mr. ARNETT. I don't recall that he did. But I told him just like I told you, the first time I saw him, where he was, the position he was, so there would be no cause for him to ask me that, .because I am telling you the truth about where he was when I saw him. He was too close.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you feel.
Mr. ARNETT. Whenever I had ahold of him, I felt like there could be some more shots fired. I believe you would have felt the same way, because I wasn't figuring on that first one being fired.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. I am going to ask you to sign all these things [indicating].
Mr. ARNETT. All right [indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. I ask you to sign them, and I assume that when you sign them you are indicating that you think they are accurate and wouldn't make any changes to them?
Mr. ARNETT. Yes, sir. I have tried to tell you just as near the truth as I can. just sign it or
Mr. GRIFFIN. Just sign it and put the date. Now, will you sign that one and this one here [indicating]?
Off the record.
(Discussion off the record. )
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have I interviewed you before the beginning of this deposition?
Mr. ARNETT. Before tonight?

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. ARNETT. Not that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Has any other member of the staff interviewed you before I took your deposition?
Mr. ARNETT. The only one that interviewed me was the FBI men, came to my home, one of them was from Memphis, Tenn., and I don't know where the other one came from.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't have to ask you this, but we say it for the record anyhow. If anything should come to your attention which you think would be helpful to us or which you find maybe you want to make a correction in anything that you have told us, will you come to us and----
Mr. ARNETT. Absolutely.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And advise us?
Mr. ARNETT. I am for you 100 percent.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I certainly appreciate your assistance. That's all.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Jean--Jean.
Mr. JENNER. His present wife is named Jeanne?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes--Jeanne.
Mr. JENNER. What do you know about her?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I don't know anything about her except that she was a successful dress designer, I believe, in California, and that she had, and I may say it frankly, that she had a low opinion of our form of government.
I don't know whether she is a Communist, Socialist, Anarchist or what.
Mr. JENNER. What are her views with respect to----
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Didi De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER. That's the second wife?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It's Didi De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER. She is the Sharples girl?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The Sharples girl.
Mr. JENNER. And did it come to your attention that his present wife was either born in China or went at a very early age, an infant age came to China?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't know anything about her except I know that she is part Russian, French--something else, but you see, she never expounded her views to me about her beliefs, but she did to lots of Americans, you see, and they would ask me why? What does it mean? You know, for some reason or other--and I would like this off the record.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
(At this point statement by the witness, Mr. Raigorodsky, to Counsel Jenner off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. What is the reaction of the Russian community in Dallas to the De Mohrenschildts, with particular reference to their political views?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, the Russian community here, it was, you say--"And political views?"
Mr. JENNER. The views separately of George De Mohrenschildt, and then his wife, Jean.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, would you believe me if I tell you that after all this time, I do not know the political views of George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about him, what kind of a person is he? He seems from some of our information to be reckless, to make nonsense at times, he appears to have traveled extensively in Europe, Mexico, Haiti, the Dominican Republic; he is a man who has provoked or seems to seek to provoke others into argument by making outlandish statements. We would like to know something from you as a--if I may use the expression but in a sense of compliment--a member of the "Old Guard," and you have had some contact with this man for 17 years now--what is he or what makes him tick?
He had contact with the Oswalds, we haven't yet talked with him, and we are seeking to get all the information we can about this man, his personality, his habits, his business interests, his contacts with you---political views even if they are stated in supposed jest, and the political views of his wife, Jeanne, who is tolerant? Is he just a character?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That's a question. You see, talking about, and believe me,

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that's the only time---first of all, I've got George De Mohrenschildt to become a member of the Petroleum Club.
Mr. JENNER. What is the Petroleum Club?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. It is the Petroleum Club, Dallas Petroleum Club.
Mr. JENNER. Did you seek to do it for him?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No.
Mr. JENNER. He was a man of grace at the club?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Very much so a man of grace, a man of breeding.
Mr. JENNER. And did he begin to move in a different social circle?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. An entirely different social circle.
Mr. JENNER. And was that a social circle of Russian emigre, a certain set of Russian emigre?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, no, that's the thing which both churches have against them. He belonged to the church, but he never sent in a donation.
Mr. JENNER. He belonged to the church in the sense that when he felt like coming, he came, but he never supported the church financially?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. No, that's right, from that point. Politically he never, and I can say honestly, not one time did he ever discuss with me any political questions or give me his views except one time when he went to take the trip--- the walking trip.
Mr. JENNER. From the border of the United States and the Mexican border down to Panama?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us the incident that you are about to relate?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Except one time, you see, except one time--he was elated because he met Mikoyan in Mexico.
Mr. JENNER. And did he report this to you?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. You know--just trying to show what--he always brags about things--he was bragging about many things.
Mr. JENNER. Was he given to overstatements?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Very much so, and he brags about the fact that he met Mr. Mikoyan, and this is not for publication, and I asked him why didn't he shoot this b - - - - - d?
Mr. JENNER. What did he say--when you said, "Why didn't you shoot him?"
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He just smiled and smiled with that understanding smile, you see, as if I were taking away from his achievement.
Mr. JENNER. Was he a man of extraordinary dress or attire?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Anything but ordinary in attire.
Mr. JENNER. He was not only provocative in his habits, but provocative in his attire in the sense of nonconforming?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. He is--he is absolutely nonconformist--that's the best definition I can give you.
Mr. JENNER. Does he speak Russian?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; he speaks Russian quite well with a by-the-Baltic German accent.
Mr. JENNER. Does his wife Jeanne speak Russian?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Does she have any peculiarity of accent?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, I say her's would be Polish, but you know, it is very hard to say. I don't think she was born in Russia, I think she was born in France or somewhere, or maybe China, but George's was definitely, because he was born in Russia. Now, to me George now this is again my idea----
Mr. JENNER. We are trying to get a background on him and we want your idea.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. I don't believe that George is a Communist, because I don't think that the Communists would stand for the behavior of George in the United States. I mean, that is the only thing that I can give him credit for. To them it is a religion. You see, communism is a religion to them and they lead, as we should, I understand they lead the Spartan life, I mean, they are supposed to, but George led anything but the Spartan life in this country.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have some business relations with him?

15
 


ALL INTERCONNECTED IN THE SPIDER'S WEB CHENEY'S HALLIBURTON (ROOT & BROWN) THING LEADS DIRECTLY TO THE KENNEDY ASSASSINATION. After serving as Secretary of Defense for President Bush, Cheney reaped the financial rewards of the revolving money door between the military and industry. Cheney became a member of the board of directors of Morgan Stanley. the Union Pacific Corp., Procter & Gamble Co. and Electronic Data Systems Corp. (Ross Perot company) But, most important, in 1995 Cheney became the CEO of Halliburton (owner of Brown and Root) ( Cheney, the chairman of the board, holds a $45.5 million stake as Halliburton's biggest individual stockholder.

Brown and Root reaped multi-millions from the Bosnia war. In 1998 Richard Cheney got the idea that Halliburton should purchase Dresser Industries, for $8.1 billion (creating the world's largest oil-drilling services company) while on a quail hunt with Dresser chair Bill Bradford. Dresser and Halliburton merged. Dresser Industries was owned and operated by Brown Brothers Harriman. Prescott Bush (George H.W.'s father) was a partner of Brown Brothers and on the board of Dresser for decades until he became a U.S. Senator. CHENEY'S FIRM HALLIBURTON AND BROWN & ROOT FINANCED, (IN PART) PERMINDEX, THE CORPORATE FRONT, WHICH OPERATED THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY. PERMINDEX was a corporate front, headed by Major Louis M. Bloomfield of Canada. Clay Shaw operated a division of PERMINDEX in New Orleans at the International Trade Mart. The connections between Clay Shaw, David Ferrie and Lee Harvey Oswald have, at this time, been proven by documentary and photographic evidence, despite myriad attempts to discredit the Garrison investigation. Halliburton was one of the financiers of PERMINDEX. George and Herman Brown of Brown and Root were also financiers. Halliburton acquired Brown and Root after 1963.

The principal financiers of Permindex were a number of U. S. oil companies, H. L. Hunt of Dallas, Clint Murchison of Dallas, John DeMenil, Solidarist director of Houston, John Connally as executor of the Sid Richardson estate, Haliburton Oil Co., Senator Robert Kerr of Oklahoma, Troy Post of Dallas, Lloyd Cobb of New Orleans, Dr. Oschner of New Orleans, George and Herman Brown of Brown and Root, Houston, Attorney RCohn, Chairman of the Board for Lionel Corporation, New York City, Schenley Industries of New York City, WDohrnberger, ex-Nazi General and his company, Bell Aerospace, Pan American World Airways, its subsidiary, Intercontinental Hotel Corporation, Paul Raigorodsky of Dallas through his company, Claiborne Oil of New Orleans, Credit Suisse of Canada, Heineken's Brewery of Canada and a host of other munition makers and NASA contractors directed by the Defense Industrial Security Command. PERMINDEX was the operator of death squads in Europe, Mexico, Central American, the Caribbean and the United States. The persons and corporations who worked with PERMINDEX took over the government of the United States of America on November 22, 1963. The perpetrators have never been brought to justice, and now Halliburton, a Permindex backer, thus and financer of the ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY, has one of its own, Dick Cheney, trying to be the Vice President of the United States. THE BUSH FAMILY LINKS TO HALLIBURTON, ROOT & BROWN AND PERMINDEX. Researchers of the JFK assassination have tried since 1963 to determine if George H.W. Bush had any intelligence role in November 1993. Efforts to conclusively prove that George H. W. Bush was a CIA agent at that time have been futile. Efforts to conclusively prove that he was directly involved with the Cuban exiles have also been futile. This is so, despite the close proximity of the Zapata oil platform to Cuba and the naming of boats for the Bay of Pigs invasion, notably the "Barbara." However, the financial and corporate structures which have financed George H.W. Bush and now his son, can be conclusively proven by documents. The following article by Linda Minor is an analysis of these financial and corporate roots of the Bush family political and financial fortune. Note how these roots lead to the Harrimans, British Intelligence (right-wing variety) and to Halliburton and Brown and Root, thus to PERMINDEX.

POLITICS OF FAMILY POLITICAL EMPIRE
Clients of Brown Brothers Harriman when Prescott Bush and his wife's father, George H. Walker
These investors who funded George H.W. Walker's campaigns. His biggest contributors were his uncle Herbie Walker, formerly of St. Louis, and Eugene Meyer, whose father spent his entire career working for a competing investment bank--Lazard Freres--or Lazard Brothers, as it was called in London. The Bush family ties to the Lairds and Lords of Scotland and England. Lazard Brothers was controlled by officials in the British government. It was always the investment bank of David Rockefeller. And, besides Meyer and Walker, George Bush's other large investor in Bush-Overbey was British Assets Trust, Ltd., an investment company whose directors interlocked with the management of companies associated with Lord Kindersley, such as Hudson's Bay Company. The chairman of British Assets Trust in 1956 was J.G.S. Gammell in Edinburgh, Scotland, and in 1985 by J.C.R. Inglis, a partner in Shepherd & Wedderburn, WS, an Edinburgh law firm.

Inglis was also a director of The Royal Bank of Scotland Group, Scottish Provident Institution for Mutual Life Assurance, Edinburgh American Assets Trust and Atlantic Assets Trust, as well as chairman of European Assets, N.V., Gammell also had served as director of The Royal Bank of Scotland Group, as did such other notables as The Right Hon. Lord Balfour of Burleigh, The Right Hon. Lord Clydesmuir and The Right Hon. Lord Polwarth. Polwarth, incidentally, began serving as a director of the Halliburton Company, parent of Brown & Root, in 1974. The Bush family continued to amass its fortune an power from the British and Scottish sources named above, as these sources introduced their financial tentacles into Texas, and as George H.W. Bush and Barbara drove that old red Studebaker into Houston. Has anything changed?

Did the same people run the selection of Dick Cheney as Vice President today? Their scion, that old Skull & Bonesman, George W. will be annointed. The PERMINDEX connection to the Bush power moves. Paravicini Bank and Permindex In the same year that Zapata and Pennzoil were moving toward hostile takeovers, a new Swiss bank opened in Houston with J. Hugh Liedtke and George Bush's securities adviser, W.S. Farish III, among the directors. Called "Bank for Investment and Credit Berne" (BICB), its stock was owned by Capital National Bank and Paravicini Bank, but investors included Seagrams, Boeing, Minute Maid in Zurich, the London subsidiary of Brown and Root and the Schlesinger Organization of London and Johannesburg. These investors are more than interesting in light of the fact that Paravicini is a descendant of the Venetian Pallavicini family, whose attorney in Rome, Carlo d'Amelio, was the general counsel to Centro Mondiale Commerciale (CMC), the Italian arm of Permindex. CMC was incorporated in Berne Switzerland, and D' Amelio sat on the board of directors during the time that Seagrams' attorney, Louis Mortimer Bloomfield of Montreal, was chairman of Permindex. When the role of CMC in the attempted assassination of President DeGaulle of France was discovered, it fled Europe and re-emerged in Johannesburg, South Africa. However, the parent company, Permindex, continued to be managed from Montreal by Bloomfield. Clay Shaw, the man prosecuted in New Orleans by Jim Garrison for his role in the Kennedy assassination, was also a board member of CMC, with which his International Trade Mart had connections.

According to a 1970 report called "The Torbitt Document," (, William Torbitt, states: "...a compilation of information gathered by a Texas attorney from "court-approved and documented evidence" from sources in the U.S. Customs Department and the Narcotics Bureau, from the Warren Commission and the Garrison investigations, Bloomfield's Permindex Corp. supervised five subsidiary groups: (1) "White Russian" organization called the Solidarists--members Ferenc Nagy of Dallas (former Hungarian premier) and Jean De Menil of Houston (head of Schlumberger); (2) American Council of Churches--H.L. Hunt organization; (3) Free Cuba Committee--Carlos Prio Soccaras (Cuban ex-president); (4) "The Syndicate"--Clifford Jones and Bobby Baker working with Joe Bonanno Mafia family; (5) NASA's Security Division--Werner Von Braun, headquarters in Redstone Arsenal in Muscle Shoals, Alabama and on East Broad Street in Columbus, Ohio. The Kennedy assassination was planned and carried out by Division Five of the FBI, which acted in conjunction with the Defense Intelligence Agency under the control of the Joint Chiefs. These divisions had a highly secret police agency called the Defense Industrial Security Command, which also worked with NASA, the Atomic Energy Commission (AEC), USIA and weapons and ammunition supply corporations (munitions makers) which contract with those agencies. The police force originated in the 1930's to work for the Tennessee Valley Authority, then expanded to the AEC, tying it in with army intelligence. Agents of this force included Clay Shaw, Guy Bannister, David Ferrie, Lee Harvey Oswald, Jack Ruby and others, and was headed up by Bloomfield. According to the Torbitt report: The principal financiers of Permindex were a number of U.S. oil companies, H.L. Hunt, Clint Murchison, John De Menil, Solidarist director of Houston, John Connally, as executor of Sid Richardson estate, Haliburton [sic] Oil Co., Sen. Robert Kerr of Okla., Troy Post of Dallas, Lloyd Cobb of New Orleans, Dr. Oechner of New Orleans, George and Herman Brown of Brown & Root, Attorney RCohn, Chairman of the Board for Lionel Corp., New York City, Schenley Industries of New York City, Walter Dornberger, ex-Nazi general and his company, Bell Aerospace, Pan American World Airways and its subsidiary, Intercontinental Hotel Corp., Paul Raigorodsky of Claiborne Oil of New Orleans, Credit Suisse of Canada, and Heineken's Brewery of Canada and a host of other munitions makers and NASA contractors directed by the Defense Industrial Security Command.

PERMINDEX AND SEAGRAMS USED THE SAME INVESTORS THE BUSH FAMILY USED. RCohn was a very close friend of LRosenstiel, who was in turn a friend of Sam Bronfman. Bloomfield was also president of Heineken of Canada. What these companies seem to have in common is their shareholders, directors and financiers. They are the same persons who invested in Bush-Overbey, Zapata and Dresser Industries through the investment trusts they controlled.

The 1992 edition of Dope, Inc. (a LaRouche publication) has this to say about the banks involved: Both Seagram's (and its old Prohibition rum-running partner, Hudson's Bay) are interlocked through a maze of contacts with all five of the big Canadian chartered banks: the Bank of Montreal, the Royal Bank of Canada, the Bank of Nova Scotia, the Toronto Dominion Bank, and the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce. Thus, the dirty money gleaned from the drug trade is conduited through these banks to points further south: The banks' offshore centers in the Caribbean, and from there the money makes its whirlpool round of worldwide laundering. The chairman of this Houston-based international investment bank, BICB, whose investors included Seagrams and the Schlesinger mining interests in South Africa, was Johan F. (Fred) Paravicini. Vice-chairman was L.F. McCollum, Sr.-a long-time Humble Oil employee, who headed Conoco and founded Capital National Bank of Houston in 1965. The bank's president was Baker Lovett, cousin of James A. Baker III, and grandson of the first president of Rice University, Odell Lovett, a friend of Woodrow Wilson at Princeton. In an interview with the Houston Post, Baker stated that his experience of 15 years in banking indicated that Houston had a relatively short supply of money, and that venture capital had to come from New England-from "more mature economies." He believed a bank "should dedicate a portion of its resources to relatively risky situations because it's those which sometimes really pay off." As the 1980s showed, however, it was also that type of investment that resulted in the bailout of the savings and loan industry.

In addition to its investment in the BICB set up by Conoco's chairman, Seagrams also owned a great deal of stock in Conoco and caused a major eruption with DuPont in 1981 over who would control the company. Seagrams was interested in Conoco because it owned a 53% interest in Hudson's Bay Oil and Gas Co. in Canada. Since it had recently received $2.3 billion cash profit from the sale of Sunoco stock, with which it had tried and failed to purchase control of DuPont's St. Joe Minerals, the Scottish-financed liquor barons at Seagrams saw another chance to grab something prized by the New Englanders-control of Conoco. In 1969 W.S. Farish III was 31 years old and was a partner in the investment companies of Underwood Neuhaus and W.S. Farish & Co., through which he handled millions of dollars of his family's wealth in addition to George Bush's blind trust. Farish was also serving as president of a company called Fluorex, an international mineral and exploration company, and in 1973 also became a director of Houston Natural Gas. He was the only grandson of one of the founders of Humble Oil, W.S. Farish, Sr., who had been chairman of Standard Oil of New Jersey prior to World War II. W.A. Harriman & Co. helped Jersey Standard finance a merger with I.G. Farben, the German chemical corporation which manufactured the gas used to exterminate so many Jews. Lehman Brothers, which had an office in Capital National Bank's building at 1300 Main-on the same floor, incidentally, as George Bush's friend (and later, Commerce Secretary, Robert Mosbacher), was represented on the board of the Capital National and its international investment branch. One director was Lehman Brothers partner, John B. Carter, Jr., and another was director I.H. "Denny" Kempner III, heir to the Imperial Sugar fortune, whose brother was a Lehman representative in Houston. The Kempner brothers' mother was Mary Carroll Kempner, a granddaughter of W.T. Carter and sister of W.T. Carter, Jr., whose wife was Lillie Neuhaus, making them first cousins of Victor J. Carter. Lillie was a niece of C.L. Neuhaus and W. Oscar Neuhaus, the founders of Neuhaus & Co. (later Underwood Neuhaus). Oscar's son, Hugo, married Kate Rice, Libbie Farish's cousin, and after W.S. and Libbie's son died in 1943, their daughter-in-law, Mary Wood Farish, married Kate Neuhaus' son. The Oscar Neuhaus who became trustee for the wealthy Cullen family and secretary of a joint venture between Dresser and Cullen interests, was a key member of the Neuhaus/Farish banking interests-which thus had control of Cullen/Dresser real estate matters in downtown Houston. This relationship resulted in the construction of a complex of office buildings in the southwest part of downtown leased to Dresser, Cullen/Frost Bank, Enron, Oppenheimer & Co. and assorted other interesting companies. The Carter family also were investment bankers in Houston. Still another director of Capital Bank was Bill Barziza, a descendant of Decimus et Ultimus Barziza, founder of Houston Land & Trust, which has since merged into First International Bank. This ancestor was the son of a Venetian count and French-Canadian mother, born in Williamsburg, Virginia, who, during the Civil War, had been captured at Gettysburg and smuggled through the Confederate underground to Canada where he was returned to Houston via the blockade route through Bermuda. The decision to form a partnership with Paravicini may have also been influenced by another Lehman representative-William Mellon Hitchcock--grandson of William Larimer Mellon, founder of Gulf Oil, and nephew of banker Andrew Mellon. Bush's partners in Zapata were the sons of William Liedtke, Sr.-one of the "highest ranking lawyers in Gulf Oil Corp." Billy Mellon Hitchcock worked from 1961 to 1967 for "his father's mentor," Bobby Lehman of Lehman Brothers in Manhattan. Fred Paravicini began an illegal trading relationship with Billy in 1965, for which they were not indicted until 1973-Hitchcock in February and Paravicini in June. Hitchcock pled guilty in April. He then appears to have disappeared from sight. What Hitchcock shows us is a classic fondi member, educated at Harvard, trained at Lazard Brothers during Lord Cowdray's tenure, who while vacationing in Venice, is recruited to work for CIA-connected investment bank with connections to the Bronfman family by a member of his father's polo team! How did he manage to get caught? These people never get caught. But what was never followed up on was how Hitchcock and Paravicini were connected to Conoco, Seagrams, Standard Oil, Brown & Root and the Schlesinger mines in Johannesburg. These connections lead straight to Permindex, the Bronfmans and to the Dallas oil men funding the JFK assassination. They also lead to George Bush through W.S. Farish-investor of his blind trust. The Pearson Group and Texas oil men. Although it has never been proven that Farish, Liedtke or George Bush had any background in intelligence operations before Bush was appointed director of the CIA by Gerald Ford in 1976, an inference can be made just by reviewing the associations that existed in the Texas oil community in the 1960s. Billy's training as an investment banker had taken place at the English branch of Lazard Freres, which has been shown to be closely tied to one of George Bush's original investors, Eugene Meyer, and to Everett DeGolyer, a Dresser director who had spent most of his career working for Sir Weetman Pearson (Viscount Cowdray). DeGolyer left his job at Amerada Petroleum in New York and moved to Dallas where he established a geological consulting firm called DeGolyer and MacNaughton and served from 1954 until his death in 1956 on the board of Dresser Industries in Dallas. He was replaced on the board by his partner, Lewis W. MacNaughton, who remained until 1969. Lewis MacNaughton was also a director of Empire Trust, a company whose largest single holding of stock was comprised of Loeb-Lehman, Bache and Bronfman holdings, in which Edgar Bronfman became a director in 1963. Edgar Bronfman, Sr. married the daughter of John L. Loeb (Loeb, Rhoades), who was himself married to a Lehman. A vice-president of Empire Trust in Dallas was Jack Crichton (also president of Nafco Oil & Gas, Inc.) who was connected with Army Reserve Intelligence. In a 1995 book written by Fabian Escalante, the chief of a Cuban counterintelligence unit during the late 1950s and early 1960s, he describes that as soon as intelligence was received from agents in Cuba that Fidel Castro had "converted to communism," a plan called "Operation 40" was put into effect by the National Security Council, presided over by Vice-President Richard Nixon. Escalante indicates that Nixon was the Cuban "case officer" who had assembled an important group of businessmen headed by George Bush and Jack Crichton, both Texas oilmen, to gather the necessary funds for the operation. Nixon was a protégé of Bush's father Preston [sic] who in 1946 had supported Nixon's bid for Congress. In fact, Preston Bush was the campaign strategist that brought Eisenhower and Nixon to the presidency of the United States. With such patrons, [Tracy] Barnes was certain that failure was impossible. According to Peter Dale Scott, Crichton arranged for Marina Oswald to have Ilya Mamantov as her interpreter when she was questioned after Oswald's arrest. Mamantov also taught scientific Russian classes at Magnolia Oil Co. Lee and Marina Oswald first met the Paines at a party at the home of Richard Pierce and Everett Glover where practically all the guests worked for Magnolia Oil. The guests included a German named Volkmar Schmidt who came to Dallas in 1961 to do geological research at Magnolia's laboratories in nearby Duncanville. MacNaughton's personal accountant was George Bouhe, who also worked at the Tolstoy Foundation with Paul Raigorodsky-a man involved with the National Alliance of Solidarists. Bouhe was closely tied to George DeMohrenschildt, who later became famous as the White Russian assigned to "handle" Lee Harvey Oswald in Dallas. It was DeMohrenschildt who had taken the Oswalds to a party where they met Volkmar Schmidt, and then a later party at the same house where they met Michael Paine. DeMohrenschildt was also the one in charge of getting Marina a place to stay at Ruth Paine's home, and it was Ruth Paine who found Oswald the job at the book depository office in the building owned by Jack Crichton's friend. DeMohrenschildt also was involved with the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia in Dallas which received subsidies from the Baird Foundation, which was determined to be a CIA conduit by the Patman House Select Committee hearings [cf. New York Times, March 5, 1967, p. 36]. DeMohrenschildt immigrated to the U.S. in 1938, having been involved in espionage with the OSS and probably with the Nazis. He had a doctorate in commerce from the University of Liege, Belgium, when he came to the United States at age 27 where his brother Dmitry was a professor at Dartmouth, having degrees from Columbia and Yale. While visiting his brother and American sister-in-law at Bellport, near East Hampton, on the eastern, ocean tip of Long Island, DeMohrenschildt met many influential people, including stockbroker Jack and Janet Bouvier (Jackie's parents). He was also a friend of Margaret Clark Williams, whose family had vast land holdings in Louisiana, who gave him a letter of introduction to Humble Oil. DeMohrenschildt came to Texas by bus "where he got a job with Humble Oil Company in Houston, thanks to family connections," and, "[d]espite being friends with the chairman of the board of Humble," he worked as a roughneck in the Louisiana oil fields. DeMohrenschildt came to Texas in 1944 and got a master's degree in petroleum geology at the University of Texas at Austin. For a time he worked overseas for the Murchisons' Three States Oil and Gas and for Pantipec, an oil company owned by William F. Buckley, Jr.'s father operated in Mexico at the same time Sir Weetman Pearson (later Viscount Cowdray) and DeGolyer were there running the Mexican Eagle. In fact, Buckley and his brother were the attorneys for the Mexican oil companies after their properties were taxed illegally by the Mexican government. According to William Engdahl, Pearson worked for British Secret Intelligence, "as did all other major British oil groups." They had financed and put in power the regime of General Victoriano Huerta, subsequently overthrown by President Woodrow Wilson, who was supporting the objectives of Standard Oil in attempting to take from Britain at least a portion of its concessions for half of Mexico's oil. The U.S. under Rockefeller cover sent money and arms to Carranza. Notes (The Deep Politics of the Bush Family Political Empire by Linda Minor © 2000): Pete Brewton, The Mafia, the CIA and George Bush, p. 137. Brewton's information came from two articles in the Houston Post-dated April 25, 1969 and January 11, 1970. The earlier article, naming the corporate investors in the new bank, had no by-line. Dope, Inc. (1992), p. 459. Dope , Inc., p. 256. The Royal Bank of Canada is said by the EIR writers of Dope, Inc. to be the dirtiest bank, followed closely by the Bank of Nova Scotia, of which Bronfman aide and Zionist, R.D. Wolfe, is a director. This bank is also involved in the financing of business in Jamaica tied to the arms trade, as well as being tied to the Canadian gold markets through an interlock with Noranda Mines. The gold exchange also serves as a means of payment for the illegal weapons trade. The Paracinis. The Paravicinis are the descendants, most likely, of Sir Horatio Pallavacino, who filled the post of Venetian ambassador to England -- which had been vacant for 50 years or so -- in 1603 when James VI of Scotland became James I of Great Britain. Pallavicino was the head of an intelligence service which "was at the disposal of Cecil, as, presumably, was his money." See David Cherry, The Found of Englands Civil Warres Discover'd, as cited in Al and Rachel Douglas's manuscript on Venice. The "more mature economies" he referred to in New England were those which began with the first life insurance company established in America in 1762 by the Presbyterian Ministers Fund. The managers brought in to oversee this fund were members of British banking families such as the Bevans of Barclays Bank-which was later to assimilate most of the country and colonial banks into its London bank. Through these family and social contacts, connections arose between the Canadian banks, Scottish banks, the Far East, South Africa, the Caribbean and New England. These same families also had strong ties to the Carolinas which was originally settled by a great number of Scottish emigrants who retained strong ties to the mother country. Another chapter will detail fondi control of this and other companies founded by John Henry Kirby-railroads, lumber, oil and banking interests financed by Brown Brothers of Baltimore and the Maryland Trust. This representative was James Carroll Kempner . See Harold M.Hyman, Oleander Odyssey, p. 217. It had been the tradition in the Kempner family for the sons to attend Harvard, then spend a year in Paris before coming back to Texas to help with the family business. Mary later married Lawrence Reed. Mary's aunt was Frankie Carter Randolph, who became the famous liberal Democrat who mentored Billie Carr in liberal Texas politics. Julius V. Neuhaus (Lillie Neuhaus Carter's brother) married Laura Boettcher, whose family brokerage company also came into the company in 1985 when Larry Johnson and Tom Masterson came into the company. The Mischer connections to George H. W. Bush. Connections can be shown between Larry Johnson, General Homes and Walter Mischer - a close friend and fund-raiser for George Bush-through an assortment of complicated corporate relationships. He was the founder of Houston Land & Trust Company, the first trust institution in the State of Texas. Marie Phelps McAshan, On the Corner of Main and Texas: A Houston Legacy (Houston: Gulf Publishing Co., 1985), p. 130; Marguerite Johnston, Houston, the Unknown City, 1836-1946 (College Station: Texas A&M University Press, 1991), pp. 75 and 404fn. The name "Barziza" is similar in sound to "Barozzi," which was the name of one of the case vecchie that existed in Venice [Allen and Rachel Douglas, manuscript entitled "Venice: The Fondi.and related matters", p. 12] Thomas Petzinger, Jr., Oil & Honor: The Texaco-Pennzoil Wars (G. P. Putnam's Sons: New York), p. 36. Incidentally, Allen Dulles, before becoming director of the CIA, had been legal counsel to Gulf Oil for Latin American operations, as well as counsel to Prescott Bush at Brown Brothers Harriman. Webster Griffin Tarpley and Anton Chaitkin, George Bush: The Unauthorized Biography (EIR: Washington, D.C., 1992), pp. 148-49). John McCloy also represented Gulf in 1975 when the scandal involving bribery and payoffs of elected officials occurred. Billy's father, Tommy Hitchcock, a Harvard graduate, had become a Lehman Brothers partner in 1937 but within two years became an air attaché in the U.S. Embassy and then a pilot in Carl Spaatz' Ninth Air Support Command, where he was chief of tactical research. His plane went down in 1944, when his twin sons, Billy and Tommy were only five. He had learned to fly during the First World War when he had served in the Lafayette Escadrille as a seventeen-year-old and had been caught behind German lines, escaped from a prison train and hobbled a hundred miles into Switzerland. The Hitchcocks were "gentry, a clan whose way of living 'depicted the English country life,'" in Aiken, South Carolina, where Billy spent his visits fox hunting and playing polo. According to Billy, his grandfather had gone to Oxford, and his great-grandfather had been financial editor of the New York Sun, married to a descendant of William Corcoran, an "eminent Georgetown financier." Billy and his brother attended boarding school in South Carolina, a place run like an English public school. In the mid-50s he got a job as a tool dresser on oil rigs in Pecos, Texas (which is a short distance from Midland where George Bush was living and working for a Dresser subsidiary), then at a refinery near Vienna, Austria. Billy had been at Harvard before Harvard professor Timothy Leary took his first LSD trip in 1960, but he met Leary in 1964 after Leary had returned from Mexico where he had been doing psychedelic research with Aldous Huxley. In fact, Billy rented his family country estate in New York to Leary to continue his drug experiments New York Times, June 8, 1973. Darwin Payne, Initiative in Energy: Dresser Industries, Inc.1880-1978 (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1979), pp. 232 and 388. DeGolyer's death was reported in a December 15, 1956 Houston Post article, which stated that he "shot himself to death Friday in his Dallas office. His death was ruled a suicide. No immediate reason for DeGolyer's act could be determined. However, DeGolyer's son, E.L. DeGolyer, Jr. said his father had been in ill health for seven years and for the last two years suffered from aplastic anemia, a disease similar to leukemia. He said his father required frequent blood transfusions, having had the most recent one about four weeks ago. DeGolyer had other difficulties, his son said, including an operation for a detached retina in 1949, which was not successful and left him without the sight of one eye." None of those facts answers the question of why, at that particular time, he chose to kill himself. He had endured all those trials for years and survived optimistically. In the year before DeGolyer died, two men began buying land in the area of town which is now the location of the Galleria Shopping Center. One was the son of Grover J. Geiselman, an independent oil man who officed at Suite 849 of the Houston Club Building, where both Farish and Bush were located during this time. Eventually Geiselman conveyed his half interest to the other buyer, J.S. Michael, who in 1961 deeded to the estate of E.L. DeGolyer for a nominal sum, indicating they may have been holding title for him all along. Further indication of this is the deed in 1969 to Stephen T. Cochran, Trustee, executed by both Geiselman, Jr. and J.S. Michael, as well as Nell DeGolyer and First National Bank in Dallas, Trustees for the estate, as well as the three daughters and their husbands. All were joint payees on one promissory note. This land ended up having frontage on either side of the West Loop, which was constructed through the tracts, which were purchased for a pittance from Italians who had owned the land for decades. DeGolyer's death is reminiscent of the death of Howard R. Hughes, Sr., which was reported in a Houston Post January 15, 1949 "Post Yesteryears 15 Years Ago" column. The article stated: "Howard R. Hughes, 54, millionaire Houston manufacturer, and a brother of Rupert Hughes, the novelist, died suddenly in his office at the Humble building yesterday. Born in Lancaster, Mo., Mr. Hughes graduated from Harvard university in 1897..As a young Harvard graduate, Mr. Hughes entered the oil industry in the Old Sour Lake field and almost immediately began inventing oil well tools. Oil men said that he, more than any other man in America, was responsible for revolutionizing the oil industry. In association with W.B. Sharp of Houston, the Sharp-Hughes Tool company was launched by Mr. Hughes, and on Mr. Sharp's retirement, the concern became the Hughes Tool company which is known wherever drillers operate." Stephen Birmingham, "Our Crowd": The Great Jewish Families of New York (New York: Dell Publishing Co., 1967), pp. 444-445. Dick Russell, The Man Who Knew Too Much (New York: Carroll & Graf Publishers/Richard Gallen, 1992), p. 615 and pp. 792-93 fn. 14. Crichton was also director of Dorchester Gas Producing Co. with D.H. Byrd, founder of the Temco Co. (later LTV), who owned the building to which the Texas School Book Depository had moved several months before Kennedy was killed. Fabian Escalante, translated by Maxine Shaw, edited by Mirta Muniz, TheSecret War: CIA Covert Operations against Cuba 1959-62 (Melbourne, Victoria, Australia: Ocean Press, 1995), p. 42. See Peter Dale Scott, The Dallas Conspiracy, chapter III, p. 37 (quoted in Bartholomew, p. 71). In Germany Schmidt had lived with Dr. Wilhelm Kuetemeyer, a professor of psychosomatic medicine at the University of Heidelberg. Kuetemeyer conducted experiments on schizophrenics. His work was interrupted when he became involved in the July 20 plot to kill Adolph Hitler. See Edward J. Epstein, Legend: The Secret World of Lee Harvey Oswald (New York: McGraw-Hill, 1978), pp. 203-05. Schmidt shared a room in the house with the Magnolia employees who gave the party at Schmidt's request where Oswald met Michael Paine. Schmidt was also studying Russian at Magnolia with Mamantov, who worked as a geologist for Sun Oil Co. Mamantov was acquainted also with George Bush, who wrote to Mamantov's wife after his death stating, "We did it!" See Dick Russell, The Man who Knew Too Much. See Peter Dale Scott, Crime and Cover-Up, p. 66. Marrs, Crossfire, p. 278-9. Gaeton Fonzi, The Last Investigation (New York: Thunder Mouth Press, 1993), p.190. Priscilla Johnson McMillan, Marina and Lee (Harper & Row, 1976), p. 216. Ibid., p. 219. Ibid. The quoted passage does not identify which of the Humble Oil founders was DeMohrenschildt's friend, but it is known that his UT roommate, Hines Baker did later become chairman of Humble Oil. McMillan revealed that DeMohrenschildt was also friendly with H. L. Hunt, Clint Murchison, John Mecom, Robert Kerr and Jean De Menil of Schlumberger. According to Jim Marrs' interviews with Jeanne DeMohrenschildt after her husband's death, George was making regular trips to Houston from Dallas during 1962-63 on oil business with Mecom and De Menil. George's Russian friends in the Tolstoy Foundation told Marrs that he was going to Houston to see George and Herman Brown (Crossfire, p. 282.) Peter Dale Scott, Crime and Cover-up, p. 34 Buckley Sr., a Texan, as an undergraduate lived in the same upper class dorm at the University of Texas at Austin where DeMohrenschildt, brothers Rex G. Baker and Hines Baker (who W.S. Farish, Sr. later hired as attorneys and top management for Humble Oil) lived when they were at UT. See Richard Bartholomew, Possible Discovery of an Automobile Used in the JFK Conspiracy (the Nash Rambler) --unpublished manuscript, pp. 63, 88-89. Engdahl, p. 72.



The testimony of Geneva L. Hine was taken at 2:45 p.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Please stand up and hold up your right hand. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Miss HINE. I do.
Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?
Miss HINE. Geneva L. Hine.
Mr. BALL. Where do you live.
Miss HINE. 2305 Oakdale Road in Dallas.
Mr. BALL. Can you tell me something about yourself; where you were born and raised, and educated and what kind of work you have done.
Miss. HINE. I was born and raised in Martinsville, Ind., and I graduated from elementary and junior high and high school at that same town. I attended the Ball State Teachers' College in Muncie, Ind., and I attended Metropolitan Bible Institute in Suffern, N.Y., and I received my Bachelor of Science theology degree from Assembly of God College in Waxahachie, Tex.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?
Miss HINE. Oh, I have always worked as a one-girl office girl until the job I have now.
Mr. BALL. When did you go to work at the Texas School Book Depository?
Miss HINE. In December 1956.

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Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do there?
Miss HINE. I have the credit desk.
Mr. BALL. Now, in November, November 22, 1963, where was your desk; in what part of the building?
Miss HINE. My desk was on the second floor, the inside wall just along by the corridor.
Mr. BALL. Did you spend most of your time at your desk?
Miss HINE. At that time?
Mr. BALL. Yes; at that time.
Miss HINE. No, sir; the girls were gone and they wanted to go out and see.
Mr. BALL. I mean did you spend most of your time in your work--it was a desk job?
Miss HINE. Yes; that's right.
Mr. BALL. Did you go in the other floors of the building any?
Miss HINE. Yes; sir; as my duties necessitated I did.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever know a fellow named Lee Harvey Oswald?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. When did you first meet him?
Miss HINE. I never met him to know his name but I saw him every day.
Mr. BALL. Where did you see him?
Miss HINE. Downstairs in the warehouse or stockroom whichever you want to call it.
Mr. BALL. The first floor?
Miss HINE. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you see him on any other floors?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I saw him on the second floor about noontime almost
every day. He would come in and ask for change, for a dime or quarter.
Mr. BALL. Did you see him use any part of the second floor?
Miss HINE. No.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him spend the dime to buy anything with it?
Miss HINE. No, sir; the coke machine isn't in our room and I wouldn't have seen it.
Mr. BALL. Where is the coke machine?
Miss HINE. Out in the little lunchroom back of our office.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to Oswald ?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he ever speak to you?
Miss HINE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. He never replied to you?
Miss HINE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Would you say he was unfriendly?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I would.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him smile or laugh?
Miss HINE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. What kind of an expression did he have on his face most of the time?
Miss HINE. I describe it as being stoic.
Mr. BALL. That's a pretty good description if he doesn't smile.
Miss HINE. It was just----
Mr. BALL. Did you ever mention this to any of the people around there about Oswald?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I mentioned it to Mr. Shelley.
Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?
Miss HINE. One day I said to Mr. Shelley, "Who is that queer duck you have working down here" and I said that Just as a matter of slang because I've known Mr. Shelley for a long time and I was just talking to him, you see, and usually, all the boys that work down there speak to me because I have to go down here to pick up the little "comp" or gift slips on my desk. Every time I went by him I would speak to him, say "Good morning" and he would never catch or meet my gaze so I just made that remark to Mr. Shelley because I had spoken to him so many times and he never answered.
Mr. BALL. What did Shelley say?

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Miss HINE. He said that was just his way.
Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, did you know that there was to be a motorcade or parade come by your building?
Miss HINE. Oh, yes, sir.
Mr. BALL How did 'you find that out?
Miss HINE. Sir, I don't remember. I probably heard over the news but I cannot remember.
Mr. BALL. You were just aware of the fact?
Miss HINE. Yes; I knew it and the girls were discussing it in the office that morning. Many of them, probably six, had not seen the President close. You see, I had seen him on two different occasions and I had been very close to him and so they were lamenting that they couldn't go out so I spoke up and said "I will be glad to answer the telephone so you girls may go out and see the motorcade" and I bad previously answered the telephone when we were in the other building before we moved in this building, so they were delighted and I thought nothing about it.
Mr. BALL. Did they all go out?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; everyone went out.
Mr. BALL. Was there anyone left in the office part of the building on that second floor office?
Miss HINE. Only Mr. Williams and myself and he stayed with me because he was working on his desk until he thought that the motorcade was about there.
Mr. BALL. Then he went out?
Miss HINE. When he thought it was about there he said "I think I will go out for 5 minutes."
Mr. BALL. What is his name?
Miss HINE. Otis N. Williams.
Mr. BALL. He works in the office, too?
Miss HINE. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you have to change your desk over to another desk?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; to the middle desk on the front row.
Mr. BALL. Was there a switchboard?
Miss HINE. No, sir; we have a telephone with three incoming lines, then we have the warehouse line and we have an intercom system.
Mr. BALL. You don't have a switchboard?
Miss HINE. Not now; we did in the other building.
Mr. BALL. Were you alone then at this time?
Miss HINE. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you stay at your desk?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir: I was alone until the lights all went out and the phones became dead because the motorcade was coming near us and no one was calling so I got up and thought I could see it from the east window in our office.
Mr. BALL. Did you go to the window?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you look out?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you see?
Miss HINE. I saw the escort car come first up the middle of Houston Street.
Mr. BALL. Going north on Houston Street?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; going north on Houston Street. I saw it turn left and I saw the President's car coming and I saw the President and saw him waving his hand in greeting up in the air and I saw his wife and I saw him turn the corner and after he turned the corner I looked and I saw the next car coming Just at the instant I saw the next car coming up was when I heard the shots.
Mr. BALL. How many did you hear?
Miss HINE. Three.
Mr. BALL Could you tell where the shots were coming from?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; they came from inside the building.
Mr. BALL. How do you know that?
Miss HINE. Because the building vibrated from the result of the explosion coming in.
Mr. BALL. It appeared to you that the shots came from the building?

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Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you know they were shots at the time?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; they sounded almost like cannon shots they were so terrific.
Mr. BALL. That is when you were at the window, is that right?
Miss HINE Yes, sir; that is when I was at the window, because the next car, you see, was coming up and turning and I looked. Of course I looked when I heard the shots. I just stood there and saw people running to the east up Elm Street. I saw people running; I saw people falling down, you know,
lying down on the sidewalk.
Mr. BALL. That was on Houston Street?
Miss HINE. No, sir; Elm.
Mr. BALL. You could see could you see any part of Elm?
Miss HINE. East, yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You could see east on Elm?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I could see east on Elm. I saw them run across east on Elm away from where his car had gone and my first thought was if I could only see what happened, so I went out our front door into the foyer.
Mr. BALL. You mean the front door to the office?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. That opens on---
Miss HINE. The foyer, little hall, and---
Mr. BALL. Steps lead down?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; but there is a door before the steps and the elevator is to my left and I went past the hall that goes to my right and I knocked on the door of Lyons and Carnahan; that's a publishing company.
Mr. BALL. What did you do then?
Miss HINE. I tried the door, sir, and it was locked and I couldn't get in and I called, "Me, please let me in," because she's the girl that had that office, Mrs. Lee Watley, and she didn't answer. I don't know if she was there or not, then I left her door. I retraced my steps back to where the hall turns to my left and went down it to Southwestern Publishing Co.'s door and I tried their door and the reason for this was because those windows face out.
Mr. BALL. On to Elm?
Miss HINE. Yes; and on to the triple underpass.
Mr. BALL. I See.
Miss HINE. And there was a girl in there talking on the telephone and I could hear her but she didn't answer the door.
Mr. BALL. Was the door locked?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. That was which company?
Miss HINE. Southwestern Publishing Co.
Mr. BALL. Did you call to her?
Miss HINE. I called and called and shook the door and she didn't answer me because she was talking on the telephone; I could hear her. They have a little curtain up and I could see her form through the curtains. I could see her talking and I knew that's what she was doing and then I turned and went through the back hall and came through the back door.
Mr. BALL. Of your office, the second floor office?
Miss HINE. Yes; and I went straight up to the desk because the telephones were beginning to wink; outside calls were beginning to come in.
Mr. BALL. Did they come in rapidly?
Miss HINE They did come in rapidly.
Mr. BALL. When you came back in did you see Mrs. Reid?
Miss HINE. No, sir; I don't believe there was a soul in the office when I came back in right then.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody else go in through there?
Miss HINE. No, sir; after I answered the telephone then there was about four or five people that came in.
Mr. BALL. Was there anybody in that room when you came back in and went to the telephone?

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Miss HINE. No, sir; not to my knowledge.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Mrs. Reid come back in?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I think I felt sure that I did. I thought that there were five or six that came in together. I thought she was one of those.
Mr. BALL. Mrs. Reid told us she came in alone and when she came in she didn't see anybody there.
Miss HINE. Well, it could be that she did, sir. I was talking on the phones and then came the policemen and then came the press. Everybody was wanting an outside line and then our vice president came in and he said "The next one that was clear, I have to have it and so I was busy with the phone.
Mr. BALL. From the time you walked into the room you became immediately busy with the phone?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; sure was.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald come in?
Miss HINE. My back would have been to the door he was supposed to have come in at.
Mr. BALL. Were you facing the door he is supposed to have left by?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you recall seeing him?
Miss HINE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you have any definite recollection of Mrs. Reid coming in?
Miss HINE. No, sir; I only saw four or five people that came by and they all came and were all talking about how terrible it was.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember their names?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who were they?
Miss HINE. Mr. Williams, Mr. Molina (spelling), Miss Martha Reid, Mrs. Reid, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mr. Campbell; that's all I recall, sir.
Mr. BALL. Miss Hine, this will be written up and it will be submitted for your signature if you wish, or you can waive signature right now; which do you prefer? Do you have any choice?
Miss HINE. Well, I would prefer to see it.
Mr. BALL. Prefer to see it, all right, then this young lady will inform you to come down, read it, look it over and sign it.
Miss HINE. Okay.
Mr. BALL. Thanks very much for coming in.
Miss HINE. You are very welcome.
Miss Doris Burns

 

GEORGE A. BOUHE

The testimony of George A. Bouhe was taken at 2 p.m., on March 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bouhe, before we start I want to tell you that my name is Wesley J. Liebeler.

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I think Mr. Rankin sent you a letter last week telling you that we would be in touch with you for the purpose of taking your testimony in connection with your knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald and his background, and anything you might know about the assassination or anything shedding light on Oswald's motive.
I am a member of the legal staff of the Commission, and the Commission authorized me to take your deposition pursuant to the power granted to it by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.
I believe we sent you copies of those documents in the letter which you have, and also we sent you a copy of the Rules of the Commission governing its proceedings and the taking of testimony.
Now the Secret Service, as I understand, called you on Friday and asked you to be here this afternoon. You are entitled to 3 days' written notice, and I suppose that we can say that you have received the notice since you received it on Friday, but I presume you are prepared to go ahead at this time?
Mr. BOUHE. I am.
Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you.
Mr. BOUHE. May I ask this? Is this my appearance before the Commission, or is it another step in the investigation preliminary to my appearance before the Commission?
Mr. LIEBELER. No. This is in effect your appearance before the Commission. A transcript of our report will be forwarded to the Commission, and it won't be necessary for you to come to Washington.
Mr. Bouhe, would you stand and raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God, in the testimony you are about to give?
Mr. BOUHE. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, Mr. Bouhe?
Mr. BOUHE. George A. Bouhe.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?
Mr. BOUHE. 4740 Homer Street, Dallas 4, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER, Are you presently employed?
Mr. BOUHE. I am a semiretired accountant. I do not have a regular job since about early 1963, but I keep a number of sets of books and prepare tax returns for many people for whom I was doing that in the last 10 or more years, in addition to my regular job, which I quit on my own volition after about 10 years, on or about April 30, of last year.
Mr. LIEBELER. For whom were you employed up to that time?
Mr. BOUHE. For 9 1/2 years I was employed as a personal accountant of a very prominent Dallas geologist, and probably capitalist if you want to say it, Lewis W, MacNaughton, senior chairman of the board of the well-known geological and engineering firm of DeGolyer & MacNaughton, but I was MacNaughton's personal employee.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born, Mr. Bouhe?
Mr. BOUHE. I was born in what was then St. Petersburg, now Leningrad, Russia, on February 11 or 24, 1904, and the difference in dates is because we had the Julian and Gregorian calendar, and I have a baptismal certificate showing, February 11.
Mr. LIEBELER. Under the old Russian calendar?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would be February 24 under the present day calendar?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER, Tell us when and how it came that you came to the United States.
Mr. BOUHE. During the years 1920 through 1923 back in Petrograd, Russia, while I was finishing my high school there, which was called the Gymnasium, although it had nothing to do with athletics, I was working for the American Relief Commission as an office boy.
It was an association to which the American Congress allocated, I think, $100 million for the relief of the starving population of Russia.
The Hon. Herbert Hoover was Chairman of that Commission. He sent

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American executives to Russia to set up branch offices in several cities, including what was then already Petrograd, and I, speaking English, was an office boy.
When we finished that thing, I got a little letter of thanks which is now here framed, which is my great pride and joy, in which it says to George Alexandrovich Bouhe, in gratitude and recognition of his faithful efforts to assist the American Relief Commission in its efforts to relieve the suffering of the hungry population in Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you worked for the American Relief Commission, did that lead to your coming to the United States?
Mr. BOUHE. That is correct. My association with some of the supervisors which were American executives led to numerous discussions with them, including, the now deceased Prof. Frank Colder of Stanford University, Gen. William Haskell, who later commanded the National Guard; one of my supervisors said, "Why don't you come to America?" So after the office closed sometime in August 1923, more or less, I applied for a passport to leave Russia but was refused. Then I went across the little river separating Soviet Russia from Finland in the middle of September at night, and it was cold, and got out.
Mr. LIEBELER. You went into Finland and came to the United States?
Mr. BOUHE. Through Germany and then to the United States in April 1924.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you eventually become an American citizen?
Mr. BOUHE. I became an American citizen on or about June 1939.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you continue your education when you came to the United States?
Mr. BOUHE. Not regularly and not formally. I was working for 13 years for what is now the Chase Manhattan Bank, but it had previous mergers. I attended the American Institute of Banking, and that is all I did there, which is not much.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you where you learned English, Mr. Bouhe.
Mr. BOUHE. At home. At the age of 5 to age of 7, I had a French governess. At the age of 7 to 9, I had a German governess. At the age of 10 to maybe 11, I had an English governess.
Mr. LIEBELER. You got your first acquaintance with English through the English governess, is that correct?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your formal education in the Soviet Union was confined to the gymnasium, is that correct?
Mr. BOUHE. That's correct, which is slightly over the high school here, but it was what is called classical, namely because they taught us Latin and Greek.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first come to Dallas?
(Mr. Jenner entered the room.)
Mr. LIEBELER. (continued). Mr. Bouhe, this is Mr. Jenner.
Mr. BOUHE. On July 4, 1939.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived in Dallas since that time?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. It's been indicated to me, Mr. Bouhe, that you are regarded as the leader of a so-called Russian group here in Dallas and the Fort Worth area, and I would like to have you tell us briefly the nature of that group and how you came to be the, shall we say, so-called leader or its actual leader? Let's leave it that way. And particularly, Mr. Bouhe, did there come a time when you formed a congregation of a Russian church here in Dallas? Would you tell us about that?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; you have just mentioned some flattering remarks which I appreciate if it is true from the sources which you obtained it, but I would say that if I am so called, it means simply because of a process of elimination, because when I came in 1939, there were absolutely only three Russian-speaking people in Dallas and they were all married people, married to Americans, and so on .
So I did not, so-to-speak, associate with any Russians that might have come or gone through Dallas from 1939 to about 1950.
In 1950, approximately, a great avalanche of displaced persons came to Dallas

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from Europe. Among these were probably 30, 40, 50 people, native of what I would say of various parts of the former Russian Empire.
By that I mean to say that they were not all Russian. They might have been Estonians, Lithuanians, Poles, Caucasians, Georgians, Armenians, and such, but we did have one thing in common and not much more, and that was the language.
It was a sort of constant amazement to me that these people, prayed God, for years before coming here while still sitting in various camps in Germany--they wanted to get to America, and if 1 out of 50 made a 10-cent effort to learn the English language, I did not find him.
So the problem was to help those people to be self-sufficient, self-sustaining, and as I earnestly hoped, faithful citizens of their new homeland.
Mr. LIEBELER. You gathered these people together and you formed a church congregation, is that correct?
Mr. BOUHE. That's correct. Perhaps not all of the people, because I could not bring a Mohammedan into the Greek Orthodox Church, but anybody who wanted to come and worship in the Russian or Slovenian language was welcome.
And as you said, I organized--well, I did the organization work, really.
The godfather of it all to help us with finances was a very prominent well-known man who still lives here, Paul M. Raigorodsky.
Mr. LIEBELER. These people came together in an effort to help the people who had just come from Europe and who had difficulty with the English language become useful members of the community and become self-sufficient?
Mr. BOUHE. I might have met the first one and maybe helped him to get a job or maybe took him by the hand and took him to Crozier Tech to learn English, because I have the great reliance on that.
Some of them were old or very elderly people. "Why do I have to learn English? All I want to do is get a job."
Well, maybe so, but I think we should look into the English language, too. And, of course, it was so long ago, maybe nobody realized or remembers the Crozier Tech, but I was there frequently, I would say, taking people by the hand and sticking them there.
Mr. LIEBELER. At the time did you meet a man by the name of George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I did, who was then married to his wife number two, if my information is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. That lady's maiden name was Sharples?
Mr. BOUHE. That's right; from the main line in Philadelphia, and a daughter of a prominent industrialist and oilman.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you also meet a gentleman by the name of Ilya A. Mamantov?
Mr. BOUHE. I did meet him. I cannot promise the year, but somewhere around that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us the circumstances surrounding that event.
Mr. BOUHE. I met Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife Marina, if my memory and records serve me right, at approximately on Saturday, August 25, 1962.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where?
Mr. BOUHE. At the home on Dorothy Lane in Fort Worth, Tex., of Mr. and Mrs. Peter P. Gregory.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who else was there at that time?
Mr. BOUHE. Mr. and Mrs. Gregory, Lee Oswald, his wife and child, son of Mr. Gregory who was at that time a student at the University of Oklahoma in Norman, and Mrs. Anna Meller of Dallas, Tex., who was invited there for that dinner together with her husband who could not come, so I escorted her with her husband's permission.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was a meeting for dinner, is that correct?
Mr. BOUHE. It was that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who invited you to the dinner, Mr. Gregory?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

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Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Gregory tell you how he came to meet Lee Oswald?
Mr. BOUHE. Of course.
Mr. LIEBELER. Has he told you, in effect, that Oswald came to him at the Fort Worth Public Library and asked him for a letter attesting to his competence as a translator or interpreter of the Russian language?
Mr. BOUHE. Mr. Gregory did tell me, and maybe I am not a hundred percent accurate, that he met him at the Fort Worth Public Library where, if my information is correct, Mr. Gregory teaches, I think, a free class of the Russian language.
Mr. Gregory is a native of Siberia, and I think a graduate of Leland Stanford, an educated man who could teach the Russian language, and he told me that one day Lee Harvey Oswald sort of approached him and they exchanged a few talks.
Then, if I am not mistaken, Lee Harvey Oswald came to Mr. Gregory's office in the Continental Life Building. He came to his office, and if I understood correctly, Mr. Gregory gave Lee Harvey Oswald a test to evaluate the calibre of his knowledge of the Russian language.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Gregory tell you that Lee Oswald asked him, Mr. Gregory, to help him, Oswald, write a book on his experiences in the Soviet Union?
Mr. BOUHE. That I do not recall having heard from Mr. Gregory.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear it from anybody else?
Mr. BOUHE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. No other time? Did you subsequently hear it after the assassination?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I heard that from reading the papers, from the testimony of the public stenographer in Fort Worth.
Mrs. Bailey, I think her name is, to whom Oswald came with a $10 bill--and that information is from the press--and started dictating the book.
Mr. LIEBELER. So the only thing you know about Mr. Gregory's supposed help with Oswald's book is from what you read in the newspapers, is that correct? About the fact that Gregory was supposed to help Oswald with his book?
Mr. BOUHE. If he told me before, I swear I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now at the dinner at Gregory's, did you converse with Lee Oswald and his wife, Marina?
Mr. BOUHE. I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us, to the best of your recollection, what was said at that time?
Mr. BOUHE. They were both very shy in the beginning, and to break the ice I used the age-old method of starting conversation on the subject in which the other person is interested, and since I was born in St. Petersburg, and according to newspaper reports and what you hear, Marina spent many, many years, or was even brought up in St. Petersburg.
This created in me an extraordinary interest to meet that person, for no particular political reason, but after you are gone from your hometown for 40 some odd years you would like to see if your house is still standing or the church is broken up, or the school is still in existence, or the herring fish market still smells.
Mr. LIEBELER. You discussed those questions with Marina Oswald at that time?
Mr. BOUHE. Right. And also I had in my possession a rather large album of maps published in Moscow and purchased by me through V. Kamkin Book Store, Washington, D.C., the album being called the "Plans of St. Petersburg" from the creation by Peter The Great in 1710 to our days, and there were dozens of maps made at regular intervals, including the last one made under the Czarist Regime in 1914, which is really what I was interested in.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you discussed those maps?
Mr. BOUHE. I took the map with me and we sat down on the floor and I asked Marina, if my school here, or that thing there, and just any exchange of pleasantries on that subject.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you that she subsequently left Leningrad and moved to Minsk?

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Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you why, either at this time or any other time? Did you learn from Marina why she moved from Leningrad, from St. Petersburg to Minsk?
Mr. BOUHE. To the best of my knowledge, I do not recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss at that time Oswald's trip to the Soviet Union? Let me ask you this, Mr. Bouhe. Did you discuss--let's not just limit your discussion in this regard to the first meeting, but looking back over your entire knowledge of Oswald, when I ask you these questions as to what you discussed at these meetings with him, and let's cover your discussions with Oswald and your knowledge of his background, and we will go back and pick up the other times when you met him.
Let me ask you if you at this time or subsequent meetings discussed with Oswald the reasons for him going to the Soviet Union?
Mr. BOUHE. I did not at that meeting.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently discuss with him?
Mr. BOUHE. I did not discuss it because I know I will antagonize him, and I could get a conclusion of my own, right or wrong, and my conclusion on that is that he is, if I may so call him, a rebel against society.
Meaning, even if it is good, "I don't like it." That conclusion came into my head after maybe a few weeks, and after I first met him, because following his movements. Either he goes into the Marines, voluntarily apparently, then he quits. That is no good. He goes into the football team in his high school, and he quits. He doesn't like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that?
Mr. BOUHE. Not about a football team, but in the Marines he said he didn't like it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you learn about the football?
Mr. BOUHE. In the press after the assassination.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's confine your conversations just to what you learned from him or what you inferred yourself from observing Oswald.
Let me ask you specifically if Oswald ever discussed with you the job that he had while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr. BOUHE. Only I could pull out fragmentary information, and frankly I didn't press him because he was sort of reluctant to talk. I don't remember what he really said, except that he worked in a sheet metal factory.
But what I was interested and asked frequently is, what is the economic aspect and the social aspect of life of a man like he in the Soviet Union.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him how much he was paid for his work?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you?
Mr. BOUHE. Well, he certainly did tell me, and I think he said 90 rubles.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that that was all the income that he had while he was in Russia?
Mr. BOUHE. That was all he said, and he even went further when I asked him, "Well, out of that, what do you have to pay out?"
Well, he says, "The rent was free." So he didn't pay for the rent.
I said, "What did you get as rent?"
"Well, it was an old factory building."
I don't know what he called old, or if it was a big room separated by a flimsy partition.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is the place where he lived?
Mr. BOUHE. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a feeling, or did he tell you, did he have quarters similar to the ordinary Russian people who have similar jobs, or did he appear to have better quarters?
Mr. BOUHE. That I did not ask him. But I wanted to go through 90 rubles, if that was the figure, and see what you can get, and so he comes out, that I remember, and brings me a pair of shoes or boots which he bought, cracked-up leather uppers.
Mr. LIEBELER. Pretty sad pair of boots?
Mr. BOUHE. Pretty sad pair of boots here, and the tops--which were famous

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for Russian boots for generations, which were originally all leather and protected you against the wintry blasts, rain and so on-- were now of duck or canvas printed black. Well, from a distance. if looked like a pair of high leather boots, but they were awful, and even he, in a strange moment said, "They are no good."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much they cost?
Mr. BOUHE. If I am not mistaken, 19 rubles, but I would not swear to that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you continue those discussions and have him go through the entire 90 rubles as to what he spent it on?
Mr. BOUHE. That very same evening I noticed that he didn't like to talk about it, but since he was in a nice home maybe he was polite on one of his rare occasions.
Mr. LIEBELER. This conversation all took place at the home of Peter Gregory?
Mr. BOUHE. In the home of Mr. Gregory. I asked him, "Now 90 rubles you got. Rent is free. Boots are 19 rubles--and I can't imagine what it is in Minsk when it rains--what about the food?"
And that figure I remember distinctly.
In the cafeteria or whatever that was where the laborers eat, it cost him, he said, 45 rubles a month to eat. So 19 and 45, and just to mention a couple of items, I didn't go any further because either he was lying or else he was going without shoes and coats or something because there was not enough money left to buy.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him whether the 90 rubles of which he spoke was all the money he received while he was in Russia?
Mr. BOUHE. I did not ask that question; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. But it appeared to you from this discussion that he must have received more or else he was going without certain items, is that correct?
Mr. BOUHE. Well, it would so appear, but I could not ask him. I said, "90 minus 45, minus 19, what is left?"
No answer.
But I could not press him because it was a social gathering and I couldn't cross-examine.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never discussed that question with him subsequently, is that correct?
Mr. BOUHE. Not his budget. I did discuss the cost of other items. For instance, he had a portable radio.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see that?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I did. Most awful production. He also had a Gramophone and records.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him how much the radio cost?
Mr. BOUHE. If I did, I don't remember. I probably did, but I honestly don't remember. But it was a small one. I had somebody to look at it and he said it is a most awful construction.
But anyway, I also saw a pair of shoes of Marina's which she bought there, and I would say they were not worth much as far as the wearing qualities are concerned, but how much they paid for it, I don't know. And what she was earning, I do not know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with Oswald his membership in a hunting club in the Soviet Union?
Mr. BOUHE. I never discussed a membership in any organization or hunting club. But I now remember that when I asked him after the week's work is done, what do you do--"Well, the boys and I go and hunt duck."
And he said, "ducklings". The reason why I remember it is because he didn't say "duck," but he said in Russian the equivalent of "duckys-duckys".
Mr. LIEBELER. He used the Russian word that was not the precise word to describe duck?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; but a man going shooting would not use it. He spoke in Russian and did not try to get the Russian word exactly.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how many times he went hunting?
Mr. BOUHE. No. sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you whether he owned a gun?
Mr. BOUHE. There?

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Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; in the Soviet Union.
Mr. BOUHE. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you whether he had to pay any charges in connection with his hunting trips?
Mr. BOUHE. No; never asked. Was never told.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you anything about the details of his trip to indicate that he actually had gone hunting, that you can remember?
Mr. BOUHE. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you believe him when he told you he had gone hunting?
Mr. BOUHE. I thought of him as a simpleton, but at that time I had no reason to suspect his lying.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now as far as you knew, he did actually go hunting when he was in Russia?
Mr. BOUHE. That is what he said.
Mr. LIEBELER. That didn't surprise you at that time?
Mr. BOUHE. No; that is one of the occupations.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did he ever discuss with you his relation with the Soviet Government, how he got along with them and what he thought of the Soviet Government?
Mr. BOUHE. I have never asked him. He never volunteered it. And much as I'd like to assist you further, I swear again I never discussed or heard him volunteer any such thing.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he decided to come back from Russia?
Mr. BOUHE. He did say once, and I hate to talk about a dead man, what I thought shedding a crocodile tear, "It would be good for my daughter to be brought up in the United States."
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only reason that he ever told you about why he wanted to come back to the United States?
Mr. BOUHE. Substantially. I cannot think of anything else besides the fact that most of us who spoke with him have an impression, and the Russian people are very subject to easy impressions, is that Marina was hell-bent to go out of the Soviet Union and into America.
And I think one of the ladies said "Why," and I remember through third hand a report reached me, "I always wanted to have a room of my own."
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that?
Mr. BOUHE. Mrs. Anna Meller.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression that Marina married Oswald just to get out of the Soviet Union?
Mr. BOUHE. I cannot say that that was the only reason.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think it was one of the reasons?
Mr. BOUHE. Oh, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that?
Mr. BOUHE. She was saying Marina wanted to come to America.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you gathered the impression that that was one of the reasons why Marina married Oswald?
Mr. BOUHE. Only after.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, did you gain an impression as to whether Marina wanted to marry Oswald, that that was one of the reasons why she married Oswald?
Mr. BOUHE. That is my impression. My impression. But I wasn't there.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember anyone telling you that that was one of the reasons? That is to say, neither Marina or Oswald told you?
Mr. BOUHE.. Certainly not Oswald. But just a minute, much as I'd like to say, I do not recall a direct statement to that effect, but Marina liked to look at magazines, she said, and Cadillacs and iceboxes and this and that, and from what I understood her talk, she was just itching to get in on that. Now that is my impression, and God strike me if I say something wrong about her, but that is my impression.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you that he traveled inside the Soviet Union while he was there?
Mr. BOUHE. I do not recall any mention or conversation.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you that he had gone to Moscow on two or three different occasions from Minsk?

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Mr. BOUHE. Well, I don't know what the occasions were or the number of them, but he certainly must have gone to apply at the American Embassy in Moscow at some period of time to return.
Mr. LIEBELER. But he didn't tell you that, as far as you can recall?
Mr. BOUHE. I do not recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald mention that he had received any training while he was in the Soviet Union? That he had gone to school or received any special train from the Soviet Government of any kind?
Mr. BOUHE. I do not recall anything, any statement by him on that subject.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had been in the hospital while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr. BOUHE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you speak to Oswald in the Russian language from time to time?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression as to his command of that language?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was that impression?
Mr. BOUHE. A very strange assortment of words. Grammatically not perfect, but an apparent ease to express himself in that language.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know when you knew Oswald how long he had been in the Soviet Union, approximately?
Mr. BOUHE. That I knew from a clipping which I have at home, from the Fort Worth newspaper, yes, which first brought the name of Oswald before my eyes sometime in June 1962. And that story said the Fort Worth boy returns after so many years, and so on.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald's command of the Russian language seem to be about what you would expect from him, having been in Russia for that period of time? Would you say it was good?
Mr. BOUHE. I would say very good.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think he had a good command of the language, considering the amount of time he had spent in Russia?
Mr. BOUHE. Sir, for everyday conversations, yes. But I think that if I would have asked him to write, I would think he would have difficulty.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you get the impression that he received any special training in the Russian language while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr. BOUHE. Never heard of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did not get that impression?
Mr. BOUHE. I did not get it, but back in the old country, in the good old days in St. Petersburg, which was cosmopolitan, everybody spoke French--well, some from in school and some from governesses and some from trips to Paris, and that is supposed to be the best way to learn the language, so I would say from my estimate of the caliber of his language is that he picked it up by ear from Marina, other girls, or from factory workers.
Mr. LIEBELER. You also conversed with Marina in Russian, did you not?
Mr. BOUHE. Oh, yes; she is very good, I must say, to my great amazement.
Mr. LIEBELER. Much better than Oswald? Was Marina's command of the Russian language better than what you would have expected, based on her education?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever ask her how she came to have such a good command of the language?
Mr. BOUHE. Well, I did not ask her in the form of a question. I complimented her, because most of the displaced persons whom we met here who went through wars and mixtures and Germany and French speak a very, very broken unpolished Russian, which I tried to perfect.
And I complimented her on that. You are speaking in amazingly grammatical-maybe I said, I don't know---correct language.
And she said, "My grandmother who raised me I don't know what period--She was an educated woman. She went to--- and she gave me a school for noble girls." Something like, I don't how--are you a Dallas man--perhaps Bryn Mawr.

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Mr. LIEBELER. Some prominent school?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes. The grandmother was a graduate, and she gave me the name, which is a top school. And when you come out of that school as a young girl, you are polished--Smolny Institute for Noble Girls.
And also, Marina said, that the contact with her grandmother influenced her a little bit on the study of religion. And whether she believes or does not, I do not know, but she was not an agnostic, in her words. What is in her soul, I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression as to the girl's character of Marina Oswald throughout the time that you knew her?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. What do you think of her general character? Tell us about that.
Let me ask you to confine your answer first, Mr. Bouhe, to the judgments about Marina that you had formed prior to the time of the assassination, and then I will ask you if you changed those judgments or amplified them after the event of the assassination.
But first of all, tell us your general impression of Marina Oswald as you thought of her prior to November 22, 1963.
Mr. BOUHE. All right, and essentially what I will say is prior to about December 28, 1962, because I have not met any of them since.
It seemed to me that she was a lost soul, as I understood without investigating the girl, no papa, no mama, no home, I don't know who they were brought up by probably an old grandmother, born perhaps at the time of the greatest holocaust that existed there from 1941, 1942, and 1943, when Leningrad was surrounded by Germans and there was a great deal of privation, hunger, and, I heard, even cannibalism.
Maybe she was thinking that this is an awful place and she would have to do whatever she could to get out.
Maybe she was partly influenced by her grandmother who, I would say, is of the old school, but I don't know.
And I think she must have been looking for that opportunity which presented itself in Minsk.
So I think she is a very thinking person, but what her ultimate goal was or is, I cannot guess even now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI that you thought Marina was a product of the Soviet machine and that all initiative had been removed from her?
Mr. BOUHE. I certainly don't remember if I said that, those specific words, but that is what I believe. If you are educated by the Soviet regime, in their schools, I think you don't think anything of your own, which is substantially what I said, isn't it, or is it not?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; she had had all initiative removed from her.
Mr. BOUHE. Except a romantic initiative to get a man and do something about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you change your opinion or did you expand your opinion of Marina Oswald upon reflection after the assassination occurred?
Mr. BOUHE. I could only add that I probably think her a person of exceedingly strong character to go through that very sad set of events without going berserk. She has a character. Now whether it is directed in the right thing or not, I don't know. I want to say, I think she is good material to become a useful citizen, but to figure out a woman, I do not volunteer as an expert.
Mr. LIEBELER. During the period in October and November of 1962, when, as I recall it, Marina and Lee Oswald were having a certain amount of marital trouble or difficulties, did you say that you gained Marina's confidence about those matters?
Mr. BOUHE. Not I.
Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't tell you about her marital difficulties with Oswald?
Mr. BOUHE. No; she talked to other people who told me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who were these other women?
Mr. BOUHE. Well, certainly to Anna Meller.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Ford?
Mr. BOUHE. Mrs. Ford, undoubtedly.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think she confided in Anna Ray to any extent?

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Mr. BOUHE. Could have, although I was not present, but they had long sessions together, just girls.
Mr. LIEBELER. You spoke about these parties with Mrs. Ford and Anna Meller and Anna Ray.
Mr. BOUHE. Well, the only time I have been bringing that up is when I saw or heard that she had a black eye.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you see that?
Mr. BOUHE. I would say within the first 2 weeks of September. One Saturday several of us arrived at their house.
Mr. LIEBELER. At Oswald's house?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where was that house located at that time?
Mr. BOUHE. On Mercedes Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. In Fort Worth?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; and she had a black eye. And not thinking about anything unfortunate, I said: "Well, did you run into a bathroom door?" Marina said, "Oh, no, he hit me."
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald there at that time?
Mr. BOUHE. No.
Mr LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you the details of her argument with Oswald?
Mr. BOUHE. No; maybe the dinner wasn't ready or this wasn't or something.
Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't tell you the details though at that time?
Mr. BOUHE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You said that you noticed another black eye. Did you see Marina with bruises on her at a time prior to this time in September?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. When was that? Did she appear bruised at Mr. Gregory's party?
Mr. BOUHE. Oh, no; that was when she ran away from Oswald, probably in the middle of November, already in Oak Cliff here in Dallas. She called at 11 o'clock at night Mrs. Anna Meller from a gasoline station and said, "He is beating me up and here I am with the baby and no-diaper and no nothing, and so on, what can I do?"
Well, if you talk to Mrs. Anna Meller, you will see that she is a plain, very attractive woman with a big heart, and what could she say but "come over."
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Meller told Marina to come over to her house?
Mr. BOUHE. Right. That was 11 o'clock at night.
Mr. LIEBELER. Marina went to Mrs. Meller's and stayed there about a week?
Mr. BOUHE. About a week.
Mr. LIEBELER. And subsequently she went to Mrs. Ford's house?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you took her there to Mrs. Ford?
Mr. BOUHE. I did take her, with the baby and the playpen, and Mrs. Anna Meller drove over with us to Mrs. Katya Ford's, I think, on a Saturday or Sunday, because Mrs. Ford volunteered that since the Meller's had a very small apartment, to take Marina for a week because her husband, Declan P. Ford, was attending the American Association of Petroleum Geologists Convention in Houston for the whole week and she could bring her over for a week.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was in November of 1962?
Mr. BOUHE. I would say October, but I would not swear. Do you know it is November?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, it was November 11 to 18, 1962, according to Mrs. Ford.
Mr. BOUHE. Well then, it was, if Mrs. Ford said so, and the only double check I can make is to check, when was the American Association of Petroleum Geologists Convention in Houston.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't know, but that is a matter that Mrs. Ford can testify. Your recollection was, it would have been in October, is that correct?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; because they moved from--she is probably right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go into that just a little bit. When, according to your recollection, did Oswald move from Fort Worth to Dallas?

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Mr. BOUHE. All right; I would say on or about--that is Oswald--October 7, 1962.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald talk to you at that time?
Mr. BOUHE. Oh, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say? What were the circumstances of that conversation?
Mr. BOUHE. Well, we were at their house at the end of September or first days of October. Maybe it was--in other words, a few of us were at the house of Oswald on an afternoon. I presume it must have been a Saturday.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there, Mr. Bouhe?
Mr. BOUHE. It was probably Mrs. Anna Meller, myself, possibly Mrs. Hall in fact I know--Mrs. Elena Hall of Fort Worth, because I remember distinctly that Lee Oswald came home and said his job had ended, wherever he was working at in Fort Worth, and no prospects for another job existed.
The rent was already a few days past due and they had to do something.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you he had been fired from his job in Fort Worth?
Mr. BOUHE. No. He said it was a temporary job anyway. That he did say. Firing, I never heard. So at that time Mrs. Hall--that Russian lady said, "My husband is away. Marina, you move over to my house with the kid, and he goes to Dallas to look for a job."
For some reason, I would say it must have been around October 6 or 7. That would be my guess.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you help Oswald find a job in Dallas?
Mr. BOUHE. I was a little bit already cautious because his conversation with me was always very abrupt and he never looked me in the eye. And to me, this is a criterion that we don't see eye to eye, I guess. And I said, the only way to start here is go to the Texas Employment Commission, which he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had been there?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other way of knowing that he was there?
Mr. BOUHE. I think we asked a lady we knew there---not I, because I didn't know her well enough--to help him if she could to get him a job.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who asked her?
Mr. BOUHE. Mr. Teofil Meller.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the lady's name?
Mr. BOUHE. Mrs. Cunningham.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Meller tell you that he had talked to Mrs. Cunningham?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; he did.
Mr. LIBELER. What did he tell you?
Mr. BOUHE. He told Mrs. Cunningham--he is a Ph.D., a very kind man--he said he didn't know the man from Adam, but he has a wife and a little baby, and if he can get a job it would help the family to get on their feet.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn that Oswald subsequently did obtain a job in Dallas?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes, I did. And as a person who at that time suspected nothing except that I had a desire if I could, to put him on his feet economically so he could support his wife and child--I said, now those were my words, "Lee, you've now got a job, a lithographic job at a $1.45 an hour as an apprentice. If you apply yourself"-- those were my very words--"in a couple years you'll have a skill that can be saleable any place."
And he said, "You think so." And he didn't even say thank you.
Then I added, "Well, I would like to hear how you get along," which is a standard statement I would ask anybody.
And for 2 or 3---or possibly 5 days thereafter he would call me at 6 o'clock, I guess when he finished his work, and say, "I am doing fine. Bye."
Mr. LIEBELER. That would be the extent of his conversation with you on the telephone?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't tell you anything of the details of his work?
Mr. BOUHE. I did not ask.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where----

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Mr. BOUHE. Wait a second, maybe I did ask and, well, he said it was some photographic process in the lithographic business, but I don't know what that means.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did youl know where Oswald lived when he moved to Dallas?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where?
Mr. BOUHE. YMCA on Ervay Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how long he lived there?
Mr. BOUHE. I certainly would be willing to bet that he lived there from about October the 7th or 8th, I am sorry, about October 8, which is a Monday, until about October 18. But that latter figure I do not know myself except from an FBI agent who told me he checked out on the 18th, but that I do know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know where he moved when he checked out of the YMCA?
Mr. BOUHE. At some point thereabouts he threw at me when I asked, "Where do you live now?" He gave me, if I recall correctly, a name of the Carlton boarding house on Madison Avenue, but it proved to be wrong.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI that he told you he lived at the Carlton boarding house?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI checked it out and told you subsequently that he had not lived there?
Mr. BOUHE. That's correct. The FBI men went there, and it developed that Oswald told me a lie to send me on a wild goose chase, but the name strikes me somehow; and FBI rechecked this place and said it was a bum steer.
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, the next place that Oswald lived after he moved out of the YMCA was in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas?
Mr. BOUHE. Madison is around the corner from somewhere he ultimately lived.
Mr. LIEBELER. He ultimately lived at 604 Elsbeth?
Mr. BOUHE. And on my card I have a date of November the 2d, 1962, that he found this apartment and moved there, but that I heard from others because by that time I lost all communication with them; didn't talk to him; didn't ask him anything, and he didn't call me.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been in November 1962, would it not, Mr. Bouhe, that he moved to the apartment you are speaking of?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; and I would say that is pretty good because I think the FBI agent told me they proved that, or something.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever visit the Oswald apartment at Elsbeth Street?
Mr. BOUHE. I never did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever visit their apartment at No. 215 Neely Street?
Mr. BOUHE. Never even knew where it was. Never did.
Mr. LIEBELER. At any time after November 1 and prior to December 28, 1962, did you see or talk to Oswald? December 28 is the date of the Ford party.
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. From November 1 to December 28?
Mr. BOUHE. I would say that by some unanticipated chance I might have run into him and her or both at the De Mohrenschildt's, but I wouldn't swear. Let me add that certainly no communication was maintained on my part.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Marina during that period of time, however?
Mr. BOUHE. Once or twice.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have already testified that you moved her from Anna Meller's to the Ford's house, and that would have been in November of 1962, would it not?
Mr. BOUHE. Oh, yes; that is right. That is right.
Then maybe I said something that I shouldn't have said. In November I told they moved to Elsbeth. Then a week later she ran to Anna Meller.
Mr. LIEBELER. You previously testified that you thought that Marina had lived with the Ford's during October, but now it is a fact, is it not, that when Marina moved to the Fords and when she moved to stay with Anna Meller, she moved from the apartment in Oak Cliff, did she not?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

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Mr. LIEBELER. It must have been November because your recollection is she didn't move to the Oak Cliff area until November, is that right?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes. That is a slip of the tongue.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Marina during the month of November 1962?
Mr. BOUHE. I don't remember seeing her during that period of time except in moving her from Mellers to Fords. If I ran into him or her once at the De Mohrenschildt's, that is the maximum.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see him at anytime when you saw Marina when she was moving from the Mellers to the Fords?
Mr. BOUHE. Oh, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. He wasn't around at that time?
Mr. BOUHE. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. A few minutes ago I asked you about your judgment of Marina Oswald's character and we had an off-the-record discussion. Would you repeat for us that discussion, the statement you made off the record at that time, and recapitulate for us your thoughts on Marina Oswald.
Mr. BOUHE. I think she is a well brought up girl. By that I mean, from my calculation, that she had received a good care from some old person of the old regime. Religious, well mannered, and such.
She liked glitter, fun, maybe, just like any young pretty girl of that age would, probably, but I think she was also a driver and ambitious about it. Even by looking at her, I would say that in the small size you would not think she would.
And it seems to me that she followed that line by meeting Oswald, coaxing him to come to America, and so as, she told me herself, she could write a postal card to her old girl friends "watch me sail to America."
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned in your off-the-record discussion that you had thought to yourself isn't it possible that Marina is a great actress.
Mr. BOUHE. There again she acts so natural that I was disarmed. But at this stage of the game, maybe I was a fool.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that, Mr. Bouhe?
Mr. BOUHE. Maybe she is a superagent of some organization.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any reason to think that prior to the time of the assassination?
Mr. BOUHE. Certainly not. Never entered into my head.
Mr. LIEBELER. But it has entered into your head since the assassination, is that correct?
Mr. BOUHE. Well, after that, you think of anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. But there was nothing about Marina's behavior as you observed it prior to the assassination that led you to think that?
Mr. BOUHE. Positively nothing. But we did in the Russian colony have conversations. We were repeatedly amazed at the ease with which Marina left the U.S.S.R., which we, who know the setup on the other side, is almost incredible.
American, British, and other diplomats married Russian girls and it took them years to get their wives out. And at one moment I did ask, I think, both of them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Asked who?
Mr. BOUHE. Both of them Lee and Marina. "Well, it is certainly unusual that they let you out. How did you do it?"
It was a completely innocent question at that time.
"Well, we just went to the right office."
And they in the office said, "All right, take it away," or something to that effect in Russian.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you have any discussions with other friends of yours here in Dallas as to whether or not Oswald was possibly an agent of the U.S.S.R.? And I want you to confine your answer to the time prior to the assassination.
Mr. BOUHE. The majority of our Russian background colony having suffered very much under the Soviet and Hitler rule, even after 10 and 12 or more years of good peace and comparative prosperity in this country, are still constantly on the suspicion of anything that comes from Russia.
Many of them shook heads, saying, well, I don't know, maybe he is a Soviet spy. At least I came to a conclusion, right or wrong, that the man came to

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the American Embassy in Moscow asking for the permit to return to his native land. It took 2 years of something to process that application. To me, these 2 years meant that probably it is not only paperwork between the Moscow Embassy and Russia, but probably some investigation.
Therefore, I felt that whatever investigating agency of the United States, it is Secret Service, CIA, or anybody else concerned with repatriation such a suspicious character, took their good little time of 2 years to process his return back to the United States. That processed his right to bring his wife and also gave them 400 some odd dollars to come here because they didn't have any money.
At this point I want to state that when Mr. Gregory invited me to dinner the first time, I checked with Mr. Max Clark as an attorney friend to the effect that is this a sort of a cloudy deal, and I am sticking my neck out in my meeting the person? And after a couple of days, I don't remember exactly Mr. Clark's answer, but there were words to the effect that since he was processed through the proper channels, apparently there is nothing wrong, but you have to be careful. I think these were the words. Then I accepted the invitation for dinner.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now did other members of the Russian colony express to you the thought that Oswald might have been a Russian agent?
Mr. BOUHE. I would say, based on pure emotions and bred-in suspicions, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me who expressed those thoughts to you?
Mr. BOUHE. Well, I don't know who said that, but I really don't remember who said that, because there was so much talk. But probably it was mentioned.
Mr. LIEBELER You don't remember specifically who mentioned it?
Mr. BOUHE. I wish I knew, and if I think, I will tell you, but I don't. And I am not hiding anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. You attended a party at the home of Mr. and Mrs. Declan P. Ford on December 28, 1962, did you not? And Mr. and Mrs. Oswald were there, were they not?
Mr. BOUHE. Right; uninvited.
Mr. LIEBELER. De Mohrenschildt was there, was he not, and his wife?
Mr. BOUHE. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any discussion at that party on the question of whether or not Oswald was or could be a Russian agent?
Mr. BOUHE. That party is very vivid in my memory. All of a sudden toward late in the evening appeared George De Mohrenschildt and his wife, accompanied by Oswald and Marina. I could almost hear a gasp among some of the people who were around me. I can almost for certain say that during that evening until the De Mohrenschildt's took him back home, if I got a human hello from Oswald, that was the extent of my conversation, and I exchanged maybe half a dozen words with Marina who said, "Nice to see you again." I would say that would be the extent of that conversation.
At that party we were especially astounded that after having a couple of drinks and without seeing Oswald talk extensively to anybody except maybe circulate from one to another, he spotted a Japanese girl. And if I recall correctly, any time I would look any place, he was with her.
Marina circulated a little bit, ate very heartily, and everybody, so to speak, commented that such a little girl had so many helpings, apparently she didn't have very many good things to eat before.
Then toward midnight there was a little singing with a guitar, you know, Russians like to sing, piano and guitar, three or four voices. Oswald, I remember, looked from the doorway, did not come. Marina came finally feeling better, came and stood around for a moment or two. "Nice it is here," she said, and that was the end.
Mr. LIEBELER. After the Oswalds left, did any of the people at the party discuss the question of whether or not Oswald might have been an agent of the U.S.S.R.?
Mr. BOUHE. No, sir; but I do know that one or two men with whom Oswald spoke, or at least one man, got up in a hurry, and I heard him say clearly, "My God, what an idiot that is."

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Mr. LIEBELER. Who was that man?
Mr. BOUHE. Lev Aronson, chief first cello, Dallas Symphony Orchestra.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Aronson speak to Oswald? Is that why he thought Oswald was an idiot?
Mr. BOUHE. I am not a buddy-buddy of his.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't hear why Aronson thought Oswald was an idiot?
Mr. BOUHE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. After the party at the Fords, there was a get-together at the Mellers residence sometime before that weekend. Were you present at that party?
Mr. BOUHE. Not with Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. I didn't say Oswald was there. But there was a group of people who got together at the Mellers either the next day or the day after?
Mr. BOUHE. I do not recall that. But they are my close friends of a long time and I am almost sure I must have been there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any discussion at that party about the question of whether or not Oswald might be a Russian agent?
Mr. BOUHE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. There was also an open-house at your own apartment during that period of time, was there not?
Mr. BOUHE. I think there were occasional parties. No discussions about Oswald being a Russian agent.
Mr. LIEBELER. At any time during the period December 28 for the next few days?
Mr. BOUHE. To the best of my recollection, as far as I am concerned, well, whether others talked, I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't hear anybody talking about it?
Mr. BOUHE. Not to my hearing.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember saying that Oswald was essentially a mental case?
Mr. BOUHE. Well, in the words of Mr. Aronson, I would say that mental case, that means he is crazy. That is what I meant.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember using those words at any time during the period December 28 and the few days following that day?
Mr. BOUHE. That I do not remember, but there is a good Russian word when you act crazy, we say, "My God, you are crazy." But that I do not remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember suggesting to Oswald that he attend some school and study to attempt to improve his ability?
Mr. BOUHE. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. When was that?
Mr. BOUHE. That was most probably the first week of October when he moved here, October 1962.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what he said to you in response?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes. "What kind of school do they have?"
And I said, "Crozier Evening Technical School, which is a Dallas Board of Education deal, has 50 subjects for grown-ups to improve their skill, whether it is academic things, languages, or whether you want to make lampshades."
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald ever went to Crozier Tech?
Mr. BOUHE. I do not. He did not tell me anything, but a Secret Service agent from Los Angeles called me and asked what school could he have gone to, and I said we have only one.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was Crozier Tech?
Mr. BOUHE. That is called Dallas Evening Public School.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see any periodicals or similar literature or magazines that Oswald subscribed to in his apartment?
Mr. BOUHE. American or Russian?
Mr. LIEBELER. Of any nature.
Mr. BOUHE. Certainly I saw a lot of Russian magazines, but whether or not he subscribed or bought occasionally or somebody sent them, I do not know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the names of any of them? Let me ask you was "Agitator" one of them?

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Mr. BOUHE. Never saw.
Mr. LIEBELER. How about "Crocodile"?
Mr. BOUHE. Unfortunately; yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of any others?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I think it is called "O-g-o-n-e-k." Means, "little fire."
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other Russian periodicals that you saw in Oswald's possession?
Mr. BOUHE. Something about the sports, because you always could see a Russian magazine open there with pictures on life in the Soviet Union.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he subscribed or regularly read a periodical called "The Worker"?
Mr. BOUHE. Never saw a copy in the house.
Mr. LIEBELER. How about "The Militant"?
Mr. BOUHE. Never saw any such article, magazine.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have occasion to notice any books on political subjects in Oswald's home?
Mr. BOUHE. Oh, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about that.
Mr. BOUHE. Oswald had a little table in his apartment on Mercedes Street in Fort Worth. I cannot remember the exact names, but certainly Karl Marx, Lenin and his works, and similar things which I do not remember. And I positively, being aghast at such an assortment, flipped over the first two-three pages, and I think in two out of three I saw the stamp of the Fort Worth Public Library.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with Oswald the fact that these books were in his apartment?
Mr. BOUHE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever say anything to you about them?
Mr. BOUHE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss politics with Oswald?
Mr. BOUHE. American politics?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; politics of any kind, or economics? That is, his attitude toward the U.S. Government and toward the Russian government?
Mr. BOUHE. After the first or second visit I saw he was a mixed-up man. I did not touch any of these subjects.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss them with him during the first two or three times that you saw him?
Mr. BOUHE. The only thing I discussed the first two or three times I saw him was pure consumer economics for a person living in the Soviet Union, meaning how much are the shoes and how much is Kleenex and things like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't discuss subjects like the social system or the economic system of the U.S.S.R.?
Mr. BOUHE. I knew he was stuck on it and knew I wasn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. And how did you know he was stuck on it?
Mr. BOUHE. He was always smirking and occasionally dropping remarks, "Well, with us in the Soviet Union," meaning some preference, whether it is free rent or free medical care.
For instance, he said, "Marina had a bad tooth, so we went to some place in Moscow waiting for the visa, and they took the tooth out but they didn't put another one in." He said, "We didn't have time." Whether that is right or wrong, I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate that he wanted to return to Russia?
Mr. BOUHE. Not during the time I knew him; positively not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever ask him in words or substance if he thought Russia was so good, why didn't he go back?
Mr. BOUHE. No; I didn't, because I think he began to hate me very early.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that, Mr. Bouhe?
Mr. BOUHE. I had made well in the United States by sheer work. I have enough to live nicely and help others if I wish.
The sense of charity is very deep in me. Marina and the child, the latter sleeping on the floor, attracted me very much. As I repeated to the FBI and Secret Service many times, while they were not relatives of mine, I still felt that if I enjoy a good automobile and a good meal and if I know around the

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corner somebody's kid is sleeping on the floor, I will not digest that dinner so very good.
So being endowed with what I thought was boundless energy, when I saw the situation, I thought I would make an effort the first time to put them on their feet. I always thought that communism breeds among the down and out and the dissatisfied people. I certainly felt badly that there were no groceries in their icebox and the kid was sleeping on the floor and all that.
I thought that by, so to speak, putting a little meat on his bones, lift the kid into bed, buy a little clothes for the kid, meanwhile assembling from all of the ladies some clothes for Marina, who was in rags, I thought I will make him less bitter which he was, and he will see, as I told him, that it can be done here if you apply yourself. And I added to him, "Lee, I am exceedingly uneasy from being a foreigner by birth, telling you, a native-born American, that you can lift yourself by your own boot strap here and live a decent life because the opportunities are here if you just only take advantage them." Well, his handicap was, he never had any skill. That is true. Marines, no skill. Sheet-metal work, I don't know if that was true in Russia. He didn't know anything. I understood from other people that when he went to the Texas Employment Commission in Fort Worth to ask for a job and they said what can you do---nothing. Where did you work last--Minsk. Let's call it off. He couldn't progress. He couldn't get any place. So this is maybe facetious on my part and I admit it, but my policy in this thing was substantially the policy of the U.S. Government as I see it.
When we see that the Cambodians are leaning towards communism because they are barefooted, we'll rush in with all kinds of food, groceries, and rehabilitation equipment to see if they can get on their feet. I did exactly that as I saw it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald seem to appreciate your efforts?
Mr. BOUHE. No; he passed a remark shortly after the second or third visit to their house when the ladies and I brought the clothes to Marina and such--I even brought two shirts for him--not new, used, and that is where I saw him for the first time trying to show his displeasure over me.
He measured and he remeasured the shirts so many times, and those were not new shirts. Finally I said, "Lee, this is to go-to-work. Wear them 3 or 4 days, get them dirty, then throw them away." So finally he folded it up and gave it back to me. "I don't need any."
Then I understand he objected that myself and a couple of others brought groceries to the kid and something for them when the icebox was empty. I took him and Marina once to a supermarket, partly for the groceries and partly for an educational purpose to explain that this is Ajax and this is Kleenex and this is the economy size, and this is junior size, and how much per ounce, just to open her eyes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you buy groceries for the Oswalds at any time?
Mr. BOUHE. Once.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how much?
Mr. BOUHE. Ten dollars.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell us approximately how much you spent on the Oswalds?
Mr. BOUHE. $75. You can make a list, if you wish, because I want to tell you.
Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.
Mr. BOUHE. Probably groceries, $10. I gave him a $5 bill for the bus fare from Fort Worth to Dallas on some subsequent Sunday.
I did not know the exact amount of the fare. And when he arrived here and I met him I said, "Was that enough?" He said, "Oh, yes." But he didn't give me any change. I remember that.
Then I bought at Montgomery Ward a playpen for about $11 for the kid. I bought a pair of moccasins for Marina, in the presence of another lady, at Montgomery Wards for $5, and since she was without stockings, we had to run and get a pair of stockings because they wouldn't let her measure moccasins without stockings.

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I also gave De Mohrenschildt $20 and I got back $3 or $4 for them to take Marina to the Baylor School of Dentistry right here in Dallas where students of the senior class practice on people who cannot afford to go to the regular dentist.
And since De Mohrenschildt had a lot of time and his wife had a lot of time, they were taking Marina there probably two or three times. And I think De Mohrenschildt gave me a couple of dollars back.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember if De Mohrenschildt spent any money on Oswald?
Mr. BOUHE. I have no idea.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about any others, as far as you know?
Mr. BOUHE. In cash, I do not recall anybody, but in groceries, in clothes, used, not new, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who else gave such things to the Oswalds?
Mr. BOUHE Through me, I collected--Mrs. Meller gave, I am sure Mrs. Ford gave, I can't remember now; possibly Mrs. Hall. Those were used clothes.
Mr. LIEBELER. This all took place prior to the time Oswald moved to Dallas, did it?
Mr. BOUHE. The clothing and grocery contributions, yes, and the dentist, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say the dental work was done after Oswald moved to Dallas?
Mr. BOUHE. After, because she was living then with Mrs. Hall in Fort Worth 3 weeks. That means the period somewhere between October 8th.
Mr. LIEBELER. Until November 2d?
Mr. BOUHE. That sounds right to me. And during that period she came, I'd say, once or twice or maybe three times. She had a lot of teeth rotted to the roots, and feeding the baby, we thought it was very bad, and here those student guys just love to pull.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did these groceries that you speak of other people giving the Oswalds, was that in addition to the groceries you purchased for them?
Mr. BOUHE. Probably if we go there, somebody will bring something, I don't remember. No regular contributions of groceries, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you pay Oswald's rent at the YMCA when he stayed there in October?
Mr. BOUHE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any other financial contribution that might have been made to the Oswalds during this period?
Mr. BOUHE. Well, let's say $20. I would say that is all, $75, more or less.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with Oswald his service in the Marine Corps?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you about that?
Mr. BOUHE. When he was applying for a job, we picked up some kind of application blanks some place and you have to say about your military service. And where it says, "Discharged." I'd ask, "How?" And he would say: "Put down honorable."
Mr. LIEBELER. That was the entire extent of your discussion?
Mr. BOUHE. Right. He would freeze up like a clam.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever discuss anything about Cuba with you?
Mr. BOUHE. Never heard.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see any literature concerning Cuba in his possession?
Mr. BOUHE. Do not recall having seen anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did either Oswald or Marina ever tell you whether or not Oswald was personally liked while he was in the Soviet Union? Did he get along with the Russian people?
Mr. BOUHE. This is talking about the lady, so I want to be careful. Marina said: "When I saw him, I was so sorry for him. Nobody liked him. I was so sorry for him I must make him comfortable here, or something like that."
Mr. LIEBELER. That is what Marina said?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was her reaction to him when she met him in Russia?


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Mr. BOUHE. I remember that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else about that?
Mr. BOUHE. He said he went duck shooting with the boys. But whether they spoke during shooting, or just were shooting, I don't know. He was not a very talkative person.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have the impression that as a general manner he was not a popular person when he was in Russia?
Mr. BOUHE. It was my impression for more than one reason. He had a mind of his own, and I think it was a diseased one. I could not imagine with whom he would be friendly. I could not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say you thought he had a diseased mind?
Mr. BOUHE. He changed so much, from an American, to Russia, and back.
Mr. LIEBELER. He never seemed to be satisfied with anything?
Mr. BOUHE. Precisely. Besides, not satisfied with any place. That point.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now did Oswald ever express any resentment of the U.S. Government for delaying his return to the United States?
Mr. BOUHE. In a casual remark, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?
Mr. BOUHE. Well, "Damn it, I don't know why it took them so long to get on the horse."
Mr. LIEBELER. The United States?
Mr. BOUHE. "Damn them, I don't know why it took them so long."
Mr. LIEBELER. That is all he said?
Mr. BOUHE. All I can remember.
Mr. LIEBELER Did he ever express any hostilities toward any individual in the Government?
Mr. BOUHE. Never heard. And I must emphasize again that to talk politics with a man like that, I would find totally hopeless and useless. I never did it. But if anybody asked me, did he have any hostility against anybody in the government, which I didn't hear myself, I would say Governor Connally.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that?
Mr. BOUHE. Because, where, I can't find the paper, but when he was in Minsk, he wrote a letter. I have it some place, but I don't know where, in the paper here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this, Mr. Bouhe. Did Oswald tell you that he wrote a letter to Governor Connally?
Mr. BOUHE. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You learned that only after reading it in the paper?
Mr. BOUHE. Absolutely. No correspondence. We didn't discuss. I would say my conversations with Oswald were at rock bottom minimum.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any feeling before the assassination that he had any hostility toward any individual in the Government?
Mr. BOUHE. You mean as of the end of December, 1962?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. BOUHE. I did not hear him say anything like that. But in reading this press news after the assassination, it clearly describes there the letter which he wrote from Minsk to Governor Connally, who was at the time Secretary of the Navy, and told him that he wants to correct the injustice being done an ex-serviceman and citizen, and I almost see the period "as soon as possible."
Connally passed it to the Marine Corps, according to the paper, which did nothing about it. And then I think it was the Newsweek magazine story which said, quoting Oswald, "Well, I will leave nothing undone to correct this injustice." That is what I know from the press. To me, I would say that it looks like a threat.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't have any knowledge of Oswald's displeasure with Governor Connally?
Mr. BOUHE. Absolutely not.
Mr. LIEBELER. If he had any prior to the assassination?
Mr. BOUHE. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina understand English when you first met her?
Mr. BOUHE. She said no.

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Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any reason to believe that she could understand English?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I said, well, in sort of a joking way, "Well, my God, you have an American husband. Didn't he teach you sweet nothings." Or something like that.
"Oh, yes. I know I love you. Come kiss me quick, or something like that."
But she did not speak English. And when we spoke English in front of her, for instance, at Mrs. Gregory's, who is not a Russian----
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Gregory?
Mr. BOUHE. I said, "Marina, I am sorry, but we have to say these few words in English."
"Oh, well, that is all right, I will learn it sometime," or something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. But it did not appear to you that she understood English?
Mr. BOUHE. It did not appear to me; yes. And then on that subject I have talked with you.
Mr. LIEBELER. You told us that you tried to teach her English?
Mr. BOUHE. Shortly after I saw that she is scared of him. He is a bad provider, doesn't make friends, I thought there will be a calamity in the family there sometime.
And Marina Oswald sort of, I think, appreciated when she saw what I tried to do for her and her kid. I told Marina, "If you are a brave girl, if I were you, I would prepare myself to stand on my own feet before long. But before you start anything, you have to speak English."
"Well, how can I learn to speak English. Whenever I try to talk to Lee, he always come back in Russian and doesn't want me to speak English to him. This is positively so."
Well, I said, "Will he object if I teach you on the side, so to speak?" "Well," she said, "let's try".
Now the young Gregory who is taking Russian lessons at the University of Oklahoma in Norman, who was spending a couple of weeks at home from his studies of Russian, I know he went to Marina to pick up some Russian lessons from her, and in exchange gave her a few pointers in English, but he was leaving for the university so I know that that system was to be short-lived.
Therefore I offered Marina on my own volition without being asked for it, an excellent dictionary published by the U.S. Government Printing Office in Washington during World War II as a guide for officers and generals in communicating with the Russians, and was prepared, as I understand, by the elite of the Russian emigre academic world in the American society.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you give this to Marina and attempt to teach her the English language?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes. But how I say to read and study, you have to have perseverance. "Let me try something", I said, and so on this paper I would write in Russian lesson number one and start writing in big letters in Russian simple sentences, "My name is Marina Oswald. I live in Fort Worth. We buy groceries on Tuesday. My husband works on Wednesday. This is a tropical climate."
Mr. LIEBELER. You sent those to Marina and asked her to study them?
Mr. BOUHE. With a line space in between and asked her to look at the dictionary, but don't ask anybody, and put underneath in English, which she did faithfully for approximately 4 weeks, maybe 5.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when this was? They were living in Fort Worth at that time?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I would say that was the last 3 weeks in September, and maybe the beginning of October which is when she moved to Mrs. Hall's. I would say it was sometime between September 12 and October 20.
Mr. LIEBELER. After about four of these lessons she stopped doing it, is that right?
Mr. BOUHE. The fifth or sixth lesson did not return. Now just a moment, she would write the English words. She would send it all back to me and I would correct it and in turn send it back to her, so she will see what it should have been.
And incidentally, I was shown that by an FBI agent 10 days ago, because a Russian speaking FBI agent came to see me for 5 minutes. He said, "Please

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take a yellow pad and write 'My name is Marina Oswald. We live in Fort Worth.'"
Mr. LEIBELER. He had those lessons that you had sent to Marina?
Mr. BOUHE. I don't dnow what he had. All I could hear was my own words, because I have a way of speaking myself. He just showed me a photostate of one of my pages. This was it. And she made progress.
Mr. LIEBELER. She seemed to be a good student of English; is that correct?
Mr. BOUHE. The first four or five lessons, for two or three pages each made a good headway.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever come to your house to study Russian?
Mr. BOUHE. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if she ever went to visit with Mr. Gregory to study English?
Mr. BOUHE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. In my previous question I meant English, to study at your house?
Mr. BOUHE. Now Marina was in my house with Lee Harvey Oswald and the baby when I met them at the bus station on or about September 9, 1962.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was the only time they were in your house?
Mr. BOUHE. Precisely. I took them from the bus to my house, changed the diaper----
Mr. LIEBELER. Marina was never in your house in the absence of Lee Oswald?
Mr. BOUHE. Never. And I never was, to the best of my recollection, and made a point of it never to be in Marina's house without somebody else being there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now can you tell us why you took such care in that regard? Why did you make sure that you never went to visit Marina Oswald?
Mr. BOUHE. Because he was a peculiar guy, and I am not a fighter. I am an expert fighter with the word, but not with the muscles. And by his smirking appearances or other expressions on the face, indicated that I am not welcome and I am persona non grata, because apparently he was jealous that I filled the icebox once, and when she said that somebody else bought groceries, he said, "Who did that?" Why I gave you $2 last week; $2 you got."
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald was ever jealous of the attention that any other gentlemen in the Russian group might have given to Marina?
Mr. BOUHE. I did not see.
Mr. LIEBELER. You do not know about that?
Mr. BOUHE. I did not see, observe, suspect or hear, because probably I showed undivided, what I might call, interest in the family as a whole.
Mr. LIEBELER. So as far as you know, Oswald never was really jealous of any of your friends or your attention to Marina in any romantic way?
Mr. BOUHE. I don't know, and he certainly didn't tell me anything about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you never heard it from anybody else?
Mr. BOUHE. I did not hear, and I am 60.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I am not only meaning you, Mr. Bouhe, I mean anyone else in the group. You never heard any stories to that effect?
Mr. BOUHE. But I did think maybe Marina slipped, after the second beer, "Well, Lee is jealous of you."
Mr. LIEBELER. She said that about you?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; because I bought groceries.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know why Marina stopped studying English at the end of the fourth lesson?
Mr. BOUHE. Sir, I wish I knew.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know the answer to that question?
Mr. BOUHE. Just a moment. I do not know the answer to that question.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that Oswald had been charged with the assassination of the President?
Mr. BOUHE. You can say that again.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why were you surprised?
Mr. BOUHE. Because I happened to know the guy.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that Oswald was capable of doing such a thing?
Mr. BOUHE. Never up to that moment. Did not enter my mind.

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Mr. LIEBELER. He did not appear to you to be a dangerous person in that respect?
Mr. BOUHE. He appeared to be critical of the United States, an individual completely mixed-up, looking, somebody said, for his place under the sun. But I did not go into the thinking like the psychiatrist thought in the Bronx in 1952, that he is potentially dangerous, and to whom now this act was almost a natural for his condition.
Mr. LIEBELER. He did not appear to you prior to the assassination that he was dangerous in any respect?
Mr. BOUHE. He liked to get into a fight, I heard, and get beaten up, I heard, off and on, and he struck his wife, gave her a black eye. Yes; he is a tough guy but----
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as assassinating the President or shooting somebody, that's never occurred to you?
Mr. BOUHE. Never.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between Lee Oswald and Jack Ruby?
Mr. BOUHE. Thought of it a lot, and I can unqualifiably say, I could not come to any thought that would make me say yes on that, that I suspect yes--no no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you testified before that you knew George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. De Mohrenschildt was a friend of Oswald's; was he not?
Mr. BOUHE. Mr. De Mohrenschildt is a Ph.D., comes from an excellent family back in the old country, married the right people, knows everybody, but there is something in him that we have discussed here with Mr. Gregory in a nice sort of way, a nonconformist, meaning if you invited him to dinner, formally, he might arrive there in a bathing suit, and bring a girl friend which is not accepted.
When I talked to De Mohrenschildt, who met Oswald somewhere in October or November, whether at Meller's or Mrs. Ford's, I told him, "George, I just cannot go on, he is nuts and we are going to have trouble."
By trouble, I meant constant arguments, battling, moving out and all of that sort of stuff.
George, who liked him, said, "Oh, come on, you are too critical, you are too big a snob. Just because he didn't come from St. Petersburg, then you drop them like a hot cake. They are nice people." "All right, George, you carry the ball."
Mr. LIEBELER. You said that to De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes; and then on various weekends he would take him to his society friends, swimming pools, and this and that just like a little hoopla circus.
So they went through the crowds and maybe they brought them over one day. If I ran into them at De Mohrenschildt's house once in that period, that is almost an exaggeration.
Mr. LIBELER. But you say you know De Mohrenschildt did go on and attempt to help the Oswalds in the manner that you have described?
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea whether De Mohrenschildt exercised any particular influence over Oswald?
Mr. BOUHE. I think Oswald had respect for the size and the weight and the muscles of De Mohrenschildt because on some occasions if he went to tell something to Oswald, like he had to change a shirt on Wednesday, or not to be dirty, or do something on Sunday, he wouldn't care--De Mohrenschildt would give it to him, tell him, and holler at him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald would do that?
Mr. BOUHE. I don't know whether he did it, but De Mohrenschildt would say it. Whether that registered or not, that I don't know. I wouldn't even say it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bouhe, I want to show you five photographs of a man, and these photographs have all been marked in the testimony that Mrs. Ruth Paine gave before the Commission. We do not have the numbers here. I will ask you

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if you recognize this man or these men. [Commission Exhibits 451, 453-456, WJL.]
First of all, does it appear to you that they are all pictures of the same man?
Mr. BOUHE. If I saw him, it must be in my dreams. I don't remember seeing that man.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you observe any resemblance between these pictures and Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. BOUHE. I would say no. Am I wrong?
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have anything else now, Mr. Bouhe, that you think that we should know in connection with this matter before we terminate. I think we ought to know before we finish?
Let me ask you one more question. Did Oswald drink, as far as you know?
Mr. BOUHE. Drink?
Mr. BOUHE. He took one vodka in my house, and he probably took a couple of drinks at Katya Ford's house. I think that I saw him with a glass, but do not know if it was ginger ale.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was not a strong drinker?
Mr. BOUHE. Never saw or heard or smelled.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have anything else that you want to call to our attention that you think would help us in this matter?
Let me say this, we are going to be here in Dallas for the next 2 or 3 days. Why don't you think over your testimony, and if you have anything else that you want to tell us that you think we should know, you get in touch with us, and we will make arrangements to talk to you about it at that time.
Mr. BOUHE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything that occurs to you now?
Mr. BOUHE. I cannot think of anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. If you think of it in the next 2 days, you call the U.S. attorney's office and we will make arrangements.
Mr. BOUHE. Is that Mr. Sanders?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. BOUHE. I talked incessantly today.
Mr. LIEBELER. In view of the fact that Mr. Bouhe has nothing that he can think of at this point and in view of the fact that I have no further questions, I would like to terminate the examination at this time with the final question of you, Mr. Bouhe, as to whether there is anything we have talked about here that has not been taken down by the court reporter, that we have not subsequently put on the record for the benefit of the record that you think ought to be on the record? In other words, in our conversation here today we have discussed a couple of matters off the record, and I ask you now, isn't it a fact that everything we discussed off the record we subsequently discussed while the reporter was writing?
Mr. BOUHE. Absolutely; after the clarification was obtained. But I must say I am a quick thinking man and fast talking, but at this moment I cannot think of anything. But as usual, I will go out and lie down and will think of something, so don't hold it against me.
Mr. LIEBELER. You will think of something that we have not discussed?
Mr. BOUHE. Because I have seen 11 FBI agents and 3 from the Secret Service, of which 2 were speaking Russian, or were natives of Russia, and I--by the way, where do I go out? Will the name unfortunately appear in the paper?
Mr. LIEBELER. No; not as far as we know. You don't want any publicity?
Mr. BOUHE. I tell you, I certainly don't want any publicity. Too, I am fearful, because you probably heard about this--is this on the record?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; go ahead.
Mr. BOUHE. This is Dallas, and you know there is a lot of shootings going on, and as I read in the paper at the time Oswald was being captured at the Texas Theatre, some mob was assembling and they were holding him out there, and screaming, "Kill the Republicans," and you can see the ----
Mr. LIEBELER. We will see to it that your name is not mentioned in connection with the affair. At this point I think we can terminate.

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has heretofore been identified in prior Commission proceedings as that worn by Governor Connally on November 22, 1963?

            Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I did.

            Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you what purports to be the Governor's coat, and may the record show that has been heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit No. 683?

            (At this point the Chairman left the hearing room.)

            Mr. DULLES [presiding]. The record may so show.

            Mr. SPECTER. Have you had opportunity heretofore to examine that coat?

            Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I have.

            Mr. SPECTER. What did your examination reveal with respect to the back side of the coat?

            Mr. FRAZIER. There was found on the coat by me when I first examined it, near the right sleeve 1 1/8 inches from the seam where the sleeve attaches to the coat, and 7 1/4 inches to the right of the midline when you view the back of the coat, a hole which is elongated in a horizontal direction to the length of approximately five-eights of an inch, and which had an approximate one- quarter inch height.

            Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to determine from your examination of the Governor's clothing whether or not they had been cleaned and pressed prior to the time you saw them?

            Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they had.

            Mr. SPECTER. Is that different from or the same as the condition of the President's clothing which you have just described this morning?

            Mr. FRAZIER It is different in that the President's clothing had not been cleaned.  It had only been dried.  The blood was dried.  However, the Governor's garments had been cleaned and pressed.

            Mr. SPECTER. Had the President's clothing been pressed then?

            Mr. FRAZIER.  No, sir.

            Mr. SPECTER. Will you proceed to describe any other characteristics----

            Mr. DULLES. Had been dried artificially or let nature take its course?

            Mr. FRAZIER. It appeared to be air dried.

            Mr. DULLES. Air dried, artificially?

            Mr. FRAZIER. I couldn't say whether any outside heat had been applied but it did not appear that any heat had been applied to the blood.

            Mr. SPECTER. Proceed.

            Mr. FRAZIER. On the hole on the back of the coat although it had the general appearance and could have been a bullet hole, possibly because of the cleaning and pressing of the garment.  I cannot state that it actually is a bullet hole nor the direction of the path of the bullet, if it were a bullet hole.

            Mr. SPECTER. Is the nature of the opening consistent with being a bullet hole?

            Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is.

            Mr. SPECTER. And is it consistent with a bullet hole caused by a missile traveling from the back to the front of the wearer of the garment?

            Mr. FRAZIER. I could not determine that.

            Mr. SPECTER. You couldn't determine that it was, but could it have been?

            Mr. FRAZIER. It could have been, yes; either way.

            Mr. SPECTER. All right.  Will you now turn to the front side of the coat and state what, if any, damage you observed on the body of the garment?

            Mr. FRAZIER. When considered from the wearer's standpoint, on the right chest area of the coat there is a hole through the lining and the outer layer of the coat which is located 6 1/2 inches from the right side seam line and also 6 1/2 inches from the armpit which places this hole approximately 5 inches to the right of the front right edge of the coat.

            This hole was approximately circular in shape, three-eights of an inch in diameter, and again possibly because of the cleaning and pressing of the garment, I could not determine whether it actually was a bullet hole or whether or not it entered or exited if it were a bullet hole.

 

                                                            63

 

 ALBERT GUY BOGARD

The testimony of Albert Guy Bogard was taken at 11:05 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney. 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex. by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you stand and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this Commission shall be, the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. BOGARD. I do.
Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please.
Mr. BOGARD. Albert Guy Bogard.
Mr. BALL. And your address?
Mr. BOGARD. 304 Brighton Street.
Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?
Mr. BOGARD. Sales manager for L & L Vending Co.
Mr. BALL. What do you sell?
Mr. BOGARD. Vending machines.
Mr. BALL. Vending machines. What kind of vending machines?
Mr. BOGARD. Vending machines. Cigarette machines.
Mr. BALL. Oh, vending. Oh, I see. I couldn't understand your Texas dialect. That is the--I understand now. Vending.
Mr. BOGARD. I have sinus trouble.
Mr. BALL. Oh, you have? Let me, see. Where were you born and raised?
Mr. BOGARD. Born in Cowshatta, La.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?
Mr. BOGARD. Hall Summit, La.
Mr. BALL. How far through school, sir?
Mr. BOGARD. Finished. Eleventh grade.
Mr. BALL. Eleventh grade? And what occupation did you pursue after that?
Mr. BOGARD. U.S. Navy.
Mr. BALL. How long?
Mr. BOGARD. Four years and two months and three days, I think, to be exact.
Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? What did you do after that?
Mr. BOGARD. I started selling automobiles.
Mr. BALL. Did you sell automobiles from then on until----
Mr. BOGARD. Then on until just recently.
Mr. BALL. I see. When did you take this job you are on now?
Mr. BOGARD. January.
Mr. BALL. Of 1964?
Mr. BOGARD. 1964; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who did you work for last fall, 1963?
Mr. BOGARD. Downtown Lincoln Mercury, 118 East Commerce, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. BALL. Shortly after the death of President Kennedy you notified the FBI, didn't you?
Mr. BOGARD. I did not notify the FBI.
Mr. BALL. Did you notify someone that you had information?
Mr. BOGARD. Was the other salesman notified the FBI.
Mr. BALL. Who was he?
Mr. BOGARD. I forget the name.
Mr. BALL. But he notified the FBI that you had some information?
Mr. BOGARD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And did some special agent from the Federal Bureau of Investigation come and call on you?
Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; several times.
Mr. BALL. And took a statement from you?
Mr. BOGARD. Yes; I took a lie detector test.
Mr. BALL. You told him about an incident which occurred sometime before?
Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; week before.
Mr. BALL. Just 1 week before?

352

Page 353

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; just one--one week before--two weeks before.
Mr. BALL. About what date? Do you remember?
Mr. BOGARD. Ninth day of November, I think it was, to be exact.
Mr. BALL. 1963?
Mr. BOGARD. 1963.
Mr. BALL. What day of the week was that?
Mr. BOGARD. That was on a Saturday.
Mr. BALL. When was it? In the morning, or afternoon?
Mr. BOGARD. Afternoon.
Mr. BALL. About what time?
Mr. BOGARD. I think it was around 1:30 or 2 o'clock, as I was leaving town shortly after I gave the demonstration in the automobile and I was in a hurry.
Mr. BALL. Tell me just what happened there? Tell me the incident that you remember and that you related to the Federal----
Mr. BOGARD. A gentleman walked in the door and walked up and introduced himself to me, and tells me he wants to look at a car. I show him a car on the showroom floor, and take him for a ride out Stemmons Expressway and back, and he was driving at 60 to 70 miles an hour and came back to the showroom. And I made some figures, and he told me that he wasn't ready to buy, that he would be in a couple or 3 weeks, that he had some money coming in. And when he finally started to leave I got his name and wrote it on the back of one of my business cards, and never heard from the man any more. And the day that the President was shot, when I heard that--they had the radio on in the showroom, and when I heard the name, that he had shot a policeman over in Oak Cliff, I pulled out some business cards that I had wrote his name on the back on, and said, "He won't be a prospect any more because he is going to jail," and ripped the card up.
Mr. BALL. Threw it away?
Mr. BOGARD. Threw it away.
Mr. BALL. And when the FBI agent came to see you, the card had already been thrown away?
Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; I tore it up that very same day.
Mr. BALL. This was Friday the 22d?
Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; the day I heard that Kennedy had been killed. I hadn't heard that the President had been killed; just heard a policeman had been shot and that's when I tore up the card and said, "He won't want to buy a car."
Mr. BALL. Now, what kind of a looking man was he, or could you describe him?
Mr. BOGARD. I can tell you the truth, I have already forgotten what he actually looked like. I identified him as in pictures, but just to tell you what he looked like that day, I don't remember.
Mr. BALL. You don't have a memory of it?
Mr. BOGARD. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was he tall, or short?
Mr. BOGARD. About medium build, I'd say.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what name he gave you?
Mr. BOGARD. Gave me Lee Oswald.
Mr. BALL. Did he give you that when he first introduced----
Mr. BOGARD. He give me that when he started to leave.
Mr. BALL. Oh, gave you that when he started to leave?
Mr. BOGARD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And didn't give you any name when he first introduced himself?
Mr. BOGARD. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you what kind of a car he wanted?
Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; wanted a Caliente, two-door hardtop.
Mr. BALL. What kind of make is that?
Mr. BOGARD. Mercury Comet.
Mr. BALL. And did you show him one?
Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What color did you show him?
Mr. BOGARD. Red.
Mr. BALL. You took a ride with him?

353

Page 354

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he drive, or did you drive it?
Mr. BOGARD. He drove it.
Mr. BALL. Drive it right out of the shop, or did you drive it first and then----
Mr. BOGARD. No; he drove it right offhand. He got in driving it.
Mr. BALL. Did he appear to know how to drive the car?
Mr. BOGARD. Well, he had drove before, I'm sure, because he took off.
Mr. BALL. Did he----
Mr. BOGARD. He might have drove a little reckless, but other than that, he knew how to drive.
Mr. BALL. What do you mean, "He might have drove it a little reckless"?
Mr. BOGARD. Well, going 60 and 70 miles an hour right up a Freeway and took curves kind of fast.
Mr. BALL Did it appear to you that he knew how to handle the car?
Mr. BOGARD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Now, when you got back to the showroom you say you did some figuring. What kind of figuring?
Mr. BOGARD. Just took out some papers and going to write up how much the car would cost and, just like with anybody else, just trying to close the deal, and he said he would have the money in 2 or 3 weeks and would come in and----
Mr. BALL. Did you tell him you needed a down payment?
Mr. BOGARD. He said he would have it.
Mr. BALL. Did you tell him how much?
Mr. BOGARD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How much?
Mr. BOGARD. Three hundred dollars, I think. And he said he didn't have the money then and would just pay cash for it at a later date.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you where he lived?
Mr. BOGARD. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he give you his--didn't give you his address or telephone number?
Mr. BOGARD. No, sir; or occupation.
Mr. BALL. And he gave you his name, though?
Mr. BOGARD. Lee Oswald.
Mr. BALL. At what time?
Mr. BOGARD. That is when he was fixing to leave.
Mr. BALL. Lee Oswald?
Mr. BOGARD. Uh-huh.
Mr. BALL. You say you wrote it on one of your own cards?
Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; back of one of my business cards.
Mr. BALL. Did you tell anybody about it at that time?
Mr. BOGARD. Now, at that time I don't know whether--Now, Mr. Pizzo, I think I introduced him to him. I introduced him to Mr. Pizzo. He asked what was wrong with him and I said he hasn't got the money right now. Will be back in a couple or 3 weeks.
Mr. BALL. You introduced him to Pizzo?
Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you said this in front of Pizzo that he didn't have the money?
Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; he was expecting some money--to have the money in 2 or 3 weeks.
Mr. BALL. When did you see the television that called your attention to this?
Mr. BOGARD. I heard it on the radio.
Mr. BALL. You heard it on the radio?
Mr. BOGARD. And then I tore the card up, and that very same night on the 10 o'clock news, I think it was, if I remember correctly, I saw him on TV.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any pictures of Lee Oswald in the newspaper?
Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; Dallas Morning News, next morning.
Mr. BALL. Now, what was your impression when you saw the man on television?
Mr. BOGARD. All my impression was that he had been in and tried to buy a car, that he wasn't a prospect any more.

354

Page 355

Mr. BALL. What about his picture in the paper? Did it appear to be--did you recognize him from the picture?
Mr. BOGARD. Yes; I recognized him as being the same fellow that had been in.
Mr. BALL. And did you tell anybody out there that you thought it was the same person?
Mr. BOGARD. They began asking me then, and I said, "Yes," and this Pizzo recognized him, too.
Mr. BALL. What did Pizzo say?
Mr. BOGARD. Said, "Yes; that is the same man." And Pizzo also has been questioned by the FBI.
Mr. BALL. How do you spell his name?
Mr. BOGARD. P-i-z-z-o.
Mr. BALL. He was the sales manager?
Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL Is he still the sales manager out there?
Mr. BOGARD. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where is he now?
Mr. BOGARD. I don't know. I think, though, that he is at Eagle Lincoln-Mercury. I wouldn't be for sure, because I haven't seen Pizzo since I left Downtown Lincoln-Mercury.
Mr. BALL. Now, when was it that you talked to the other salesman about this and told them that you thought the man had been in to see you?
Mr. BOGARD. We were all standing there listening to the radio and the name came on the radio, and I pulled this business card out with "Lee Oswald," wrote across it.
Mr. BALL. Who were some of the men standing by the radio when you pulled this business card out?
Mr. BOGARD. Oh, I think Oran Brown was there, Mr. Wilson was there, and this other little boy, he hadn't been there very long. I can't remember his name at this time right now.
Mr. BALL. Oran Brown and Wilson?
Mr. BOGARD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What are Wilson's initials, do you have them?
Mr. BOGARD. I can't remember Mr. Wilson's initials right now.
Mr. BALL. Wilson, a salesman?
Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; been there for about 12 years.
Mr. BALL. Is Brown a salesman?
Mr. BOGARD. He works for Fina Oil Co. out here on Inwood Road now.
Mr. BALL. What is it?
Mr. BOGARD. [Spelling] O-r-a-n
Mr. BALL. [Spelling] O-r-a-n---oil what?
Mr. BOGARD. My--no, he works for Fina Oil Co., American Petra Fina Oil Co. A service station.
Mr. BALL. Service station?
Mr. BOGARD. He manages this service station out there. New, big service station.
Mr. BALL. Well, Mr. Bogard, did you receive a letter from the Commission asking you to appear here?
Mr. BOGARD. No, sir
Mr. BALL. You were asked to appear by the Secret Service?
Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir:
Mr. BALL. I probably should have stated to you the purpose of this inquiry. The Commission has been authorized to investigate the assassination of the President and any facts or circumstances that might determine who assassinated him. And our attention was called to your testimony by the Federal Bureau of Investigation report, and we asked you to come in and testify and you did so willingly, didn't you?
Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You were willing?
Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Willing to come in and testify and be sworn?
Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.

355

Page 356

Mr. BALL. And testify as to these facts?
Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. I am a staff officer with the Commission.
Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And I am authorized by the Commission to administer the oath to you and ask you these questions, and all questions you answered were under oath. You understand that?
Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; I answered the same questions under a polygraph test.
Mr. BALL. Under a polygraph test from the FBI?
Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, this will be written up and submitted to you for your signature, and you can come down here and look it over and read it and sign it, or you may waive your signature whatever you wish. Which do you prefer?
Mr. BOGARD. Which do you want? Put it that way.
Mr. BALL. I'm going to leave it up to you. That is really something for you to decide whether you want to come back down here or not.
Mr. BOGARD. I don't mind coming back down.
Mr. BALL. We'll notify you and you can come in and we will notify you when it is ready and you can come in and sign it.
Mr. BOGARD. Thank you.
Mr. BALL. Thank you for coming down.
Mr. BOGARD. Thank you, Mr. Ball.
Mr. BALL. All right.


more howard bowen

ro ,e. w... a-,-an

Till., LEE HARVEY OSWALD

INTERNAL SECURITY - R

5r.ee" JOHN HOWARD BOWEN states he rode on bus from Nuevo

Laredo, Mexico, to Mexico City, Mexico, 9/26-27/63,

I .nd sat next to unidentified young mrn whom he was

unable to identify as subject OSWALD . BOWEN claims

to be itinerant Baptist preacher f :~r past 50 years,

traveling extensively in the United States, and for

past 20 years in Mexico . He claims he has never been

to any other foreign countries, other that Bermuda .

BOWEN acquainted with ALBERT OSBORNE, from Canada,

who Is about his same size and age, and who is also

itinerant Baptist preacher or missionary who has

traveled in Mexico, and who was reportedly In that

country in December, 1963, and January, 1964 .

DETAILS :

- RUC -

.> .. . ..a . ~ . . .a r . ... ..m. .. . .. . ,. e. . ..mwi.e w,. e. r.. . ...r . ° n . a am .I .n. rat .r ,. , ....a . .

COMMISSION EXHIBIT NO. 2443

ro .aoa a... t-uyn

On 2/8/64 et Florence, Alabama

FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION

Fit . Y

BOWEN stated to the beat of his knowledge, he was

born at Chester, Pennsylvania, on January 12, 1885, and his

father's name was JAMES A . BOWEN, and his mother was EMILY

BOWEN . He did not know his parents, but he wan reared in

an orphl,anage in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania . His grandmother,

SARAH HALL, participated to a limited extent in giving him

yuldance and shelter during the early years of his life .

_ .ie grandmother end relatives are all deceased, and he has

no known relatives of any kind.

BOWEN attended elementary school intermittently

in the Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, area, but took correspondence

courses and has completed the equivalent of about

two years of college . He also took a correspondence course

in theology, which he completed in about 1914 . About fifty

years ago, he was ordained as a minister by the Plymouth

Brethren Church, In Trenton, New Jersey, and about fortyfive

years ago, he was ordained as a minister by the Northern

Baptist Convention at Binghamton, New York . He also is

recognized as an ordained minister by the Missionary Baptist

Convention and he currently considers himself associated

with that church body .

BOWEN stated he considers himself an itinerant

gardenm and preacher . He was formerly a member of the

First Baptist Church at Knoxville, Tennessee, and more

^ecently was a member of the First Baptist Church at

Laredo, Texas . He has visited and worshiped at the latter

church Intermittently for the past twenty years .

ES 105-909

SA ERVIN B . BRUNINGA :ela -D .t.dina .d

2/10/64

rn, . . .mn. r . m. v p. .. ..r .We. reI w .. n... .e ..

COMMISSION EXHIBIT NO. 2443-Contmued

IINITED STATES

FEDERAL BUREAU OF

DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

INVE:n'IGATION Date 2/11/64

JOHN HOWARD BOWEN wan Interviewed February 8,

1964, and he furnished the following Information :

C"rw. 1-Legat, Mexico city

BOWEN advised that he has been In the Russellville,

Alabama, area, aPSakiag at various rural Baptist churches,

R.- O, SA ERVIN B . BRUNINGA Ome.. Birmingham and has been residing at the residence of WYLIE UPTATN,

D- 2/11/64 Rural Route, Russellville, Alabama . He stated he intended

leaving the Russellville, Alabama, area February 11, 1964,

F1.Ie M. . .n . 0, BH 105-908 w.... ra. r. 105-82555 ea route back to Laredo, Texas, by way of New Orleans,

Louisiana .

2

BIT 105-908

About thirty years ago, BOWEN applied for a

job as a juvenile counselor, with the Tennessee Valley

Authority at Knoxville, Tennessee, and recalled that

he was fingerprinted on that occasion . From about 1929

to about 1934, BOWEN worked with juvenile delinquents

for the City of Knoxville, Tennessee . While doing this

work, he became well acquainted with Dr . A . D . MUELLER,

who 1s now associated with the Veterans Hospital in

Memphis, Tennessee, and lives at 4035 Tutwiler Road,

Memphis, Tennessee . lie also became well acquainted

with Miss MARY ELLIOTT, who is a prominent social worker

in the Knoxville, Tennessee, area .

130WEN states since becoming ordained about

fifty years ago, he has traveled extensively in the

United States, particularly in the Stanton, Virginia,

area, and in the Southern part of the United States, as

an itinerant Baptist minister, During the past twenty

years, he has also made numerous trips as an itinerant

Baptist minister throughout Mexico . He stated he has

never been to Canada or England or any other foreign

country, except in about 1939, he once visited Bermuda .

On these itinerant preaching tours, he resides in the

homes of the host pastor, and he moves from place to

place frequently . He considers his home to be the St .

Anthony Hotel, Laredo, Texas, and he is well known there

by the manager OSCAR FERRINA . He has been residing at

that hotel intermittently for the past twenty years, and

has made trips to Mexico for the past twenty years as an

itinerant preacher .

BOWEN stated he has no passport, but carries

for identification purposes, the following items :

Social Security Card in the name of

JOHN HOWARD BOWEN, Social Security

Number 449-36-9745 .

Texaco Company Credit Card bT-11372,

in the name of J . H . BOWEN, P . 0. Box

3042, Knoxville, Tennessee .

3

COMMISSION EXHIBIT No. 2443-Continued

3

BII 105-908

Gold Star Insurance Company Card, Policy

Number N3176 .

Card frcm laredo National Bank, in the

name of JOHN HOWARD BOWEN, 920 Salinas Avenue,

Box 308, Laredo, Texas, Account Number 10-7400-1 .

BOWEN stated that in 1956, he contacted an unreealled

attorney In Philadelphia to apply for Social Security . This

attorney expnrlenced great diffic.ulty in obtaining a date of

birth for him . The attorney was not able to completely verify

his birth, but furnished him with a card reflecting the

following data :

Name : JOHN HOWARD BOWEN

Born : January 14, 1880

Father : JAMES A, BOWEN

Mother : EDITH MONTGOMERY

Place of Birth : Chester, Pennsylvania

File Number : D-869-1880

Filed : March 6, 1956

The above card bore the signature of a person

which appeared to be DERWIN F . WATKINS, as the person who

executed the birth data form . BOWEN stated he doubted

if the above was exactly correct, but it was the best

birth data which the attorney could obtain through unknown

sources . He could not recall the name of this attorney,

and was not certain if WATKINS was his name or not .

BOWEN stated he had been unable to obtain Social Security

benefits because of his inability to obtain correct birth

data .

BOWEN states that in about 1958, he was residing

at the Reece Hotel, oaxuco, Mexico, and also residing in

that same hotel was ALBERT OSBORNE, who was a retired

itinerant Baptist minister from Canada . OSBORNE was about

70 years of age, 5'8" tall, 190 pounds, hair gray and balding,

and had an English or Scottish accent . BOWEN acknowledged

that OSBORNE was about his same size and ago .

4

COMMISSION EXHIBIT No. 2443-Continued

HN 105-908

A census of some type was then being taken by

Mexican authorities, and BOa'1N was unable to locate his

identification papers . He therefore borrowed the identi

fication papers of OSBORNE on that occasion, and exhibited

then to the Mexican authorities . He thereafter returned

these papers to OSBORNE . He later found his own identification

papers, and states he has never before or since

claimed to be anyone other than JOHN HOWARD BOWEN .

BOWEN stated he next saw OSBORNE in about the

Spring of 1961 or 1962, at the Railway Express Company

Office in Mexico City, Mexico . He pointed out he eorre_s

ponds occasionally with OSBORNE, but has not seen him since

the above occasion . He recalled having heard through friends

in Mexico that OSBORNE was traveling in Mexico as an itinerant

Baptist preacher in Dscembor, 1963, and January, 1964, but

be was planning on returning to Canada, and possibly taking

upon residence in the vicinity of Vancouver, Canada .

BOWEN observed a photograph of a man standing

in front of a cantle-like building, holding what appeared

to be a as mera, and he identified that person as being

ALBERT OSBORNE . BOWEN explained that he has a copy of

that same photograph, which was sent to him by OSBORNE,

and it apparently was taken during a trip to England or

Scotland .

BOWEN also observed a photograph of a man in a

zippered ja." ket and a helmet, and identified that as being

a photograph of himself, which had been taken about twenty

years ago at Veracruz, Mexico . 130WEN stated that ALBERT

OSBORNE has traveled in the same areas in Mexico as an

itinerant Baptist preacher, and OSBORNE has stayed at the

two irdependent churches in Texmeluean, Mexico, where the

churches maintain a home for ministers . Those churches

also distribute food for children from destitute families .

He explained that it was entirely possible persons might

confuse him with OSBORNE, because they are both itinerant

Baptist preachers, are about the same size and age, and

both travel extensively in Mexico .

5

COMMISSION EXHIBIT No. 2443-Continued

BH 105-908

BOWEN stated he was not interviewed in

Mexico at Texmeluean or anywhere also by the FBI,

regarding OS BORNE or subject OSWALD . He pointed out

when he came to Iarodo, Taxae, recently, he learned

that the FBI had been making inquiries there regarding

his recent trip to Mexico . He stated that he thereafter

looked through his papers and files at Laredo, and learned

that he had made a trip by bus from Nuevo Laredo, Mexico,

to Mexico City, on September 26-27, 1963 .

BOWEN explained that at the bus station in

Nuevo Laredo, Mexico, at about 3 :30 P.M ., September 26,

1963, he boarded a bus an route to Mexico City, and signed

his own name, JOHN HOWARD BOWEN to the roster of passengers .

He sat in the third seat from Ad front on the right side .

A young man who apparently boarded the bus at the same

time sat in the seat adjacent to him . He described this

person as follows :

Sex : Halo

Race : Whit*

Age : 29

Height : 5'8^

Weight : 150 pounds

Hair : Blond and thin

Complexion : Dark

He explained this passenger had a small

zipper bag which he plaadd in the rack above his feet .

He did not talk to this person or hear him speak to

anyone also on the bus . He presumed this person was

Mexican or Puerto Rican, because he was dark complected

and did not appear to be an American . He recalled that

directly in front of him was a man and a woman who wore

about sixty years of age . The man was retired from the

Bermuda Police Department, and he apparently had been

traveling extensively since his retiromont . BOWEN recalled

that two Mexican woman and a small child occupied

the seat directly behind him . He could not recall who

the other passengers might have been on the bus . He did

recall that the bus was fully occupied when it left Nuevo

Lar*do .

6

COMMISSION EXHIBIT No. 2443-Continued

BH 105-908

BOWEN stated the young man sitting next to him

went to sleep shortly after getting on the bus, and did

not converse with him or anyone else . At about 4 :30 or

5 :00 P.M . on September 26, 1964, the bus stopped for a

lunch stop at Sabinas Hidalgo, Mexico . This young man

went to the restroom and ate a lunch at the bus station .

When he returned to the bus, he went to the rear of the

bus where he reclined on a rear seat and went to =1cep .

BOWEN stated he did not recall seeing the above

person again during the trip to Mexico City, and has not

seen him before or since that time . He did not know where

the above person got off the bus . BOWEN stated he does

not recall having specifically seen a particular photograph

of subject LEE HARVEY OSWALD, but is rather certain he had

seen some newspaper photographs of him . He stated he does

not feel that the above person was identical to LEE HARVEY

OSWALD, because the above person was quite dark complected

and appeared to be a Mexican or Puerto Rican .

BOWEN stated he arrived in Mexico City on the

above bus about 9 :30 AM ., September 27, 1963 . He thereafter

boarded another bus in Mexico City, and went to Puebla,

Mexico, where he resided at the St . Augestine Hotel . The

next day, he boarded a night train at Puebla and traveled

to the Railroad Hotel in Jesus Carranga, which is north

of Juchitan, Mexico . He remained in this area for about

one week, contacting various native ministers, and delivering

Bibles to them . He preached some In Juchitan,

and Tehuantepec, area, He then returned to the area of

Puebla, Mexico, whore he resided with various persons

connected with Baptist churches in that vicinity . He then

raveled back to Laredo, Texas, in about the middle of

November, 1963, While in Mexico City, he usually resides

at the Canada Hotel Annex, which is on Cinco De Mayo Street .

BOWEN stated at no time on this trip did he again see the

above mentioned person who had been on the bus with him

from Neuvo Laredo .

7

COMMISSION EXHIBIT No. 2443-Continued

BH 105-908

BOWEN stated he intends to travel from the

Russellville, Alabama, area, to Laredo, Texas, by way

of Now Orleans . and expects to be at the St . Anthony

Hotel, Laredo, Texas, about Febrpary 15-17, 1964, where

he will remain indefinitely . He stated that at Laredo,

he could locate the bus ticket which would verify the

date of the above mentioned trip into Mexico in September,

1963. He stated he may also have there rorrespondonce

from ALBERT OSBORNE .

BMW stated he has never taught school, has never

been to any foreign countries, other than Mexico and Sermuda .

we stated he has never written a book, knew nothing about

the Lisbon earthquake of 1775 . He could not recall seeing

any American girls on instant bus, and knew of no one on

the bus who might have talked to the young man sitting in

the seat adjacent to him .

BOWEN stated he definitely is not identical to

ALBERT OSBORNE, and with the one exception, he has never

posed an ALBERT OSBORNE . BOWEN stated he would cooperate

fully in this matter. He volunteered to have his photograph

and fingerprints taken on this occasion .

BOWEN furnished the following descriptive data

regarding himself :

Name : JOHN HOWARD BOWEN

Sex : Male

Race : White

Date of Birth : January 12, 1885

Place of Birth : Chester, Pennsylvania

Height : 5 1 81,

Weight : 190 pounds

Hair : Gray and thin

Eyes : Blue

Build : Heavy

Complexion : Medium

Scars and Marks : Small round sore or scar

on right temple .

8

COMMISSION EXHIBIT No. 2443-Continued

BH 1e5-908 DL 100-10461

RPG :aah

Characteristics ; Wears heavy . dark rimmed

glasses for reading

occupation : Itinerant Baptist preacher .

s.

COMMISSION EXHIBIT NO. 2443-Continued

A. FBI Laboratory Examinations

COMMISSION EXHIBIT NO. 2444


 

JUDGE THERON WARD

  Contact Information  tomnln@cox.net

 

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POSTAL Volume VII

 

TESTIMONY OF JULIA POSTAL

 

The testimony of Julia Postal was taken at 3 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex. by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

 

Mr. BALL. Will you stand and hold up your hand, please and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. POSTAL. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mrs. POSTAL. Julia Postal.

Mr. BALL. What is your address, please?

Mrs. POSTAL. 2728 Seevers.

Mr. BALL. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and what your education was, what your occupation has been, just in general.

Mrs. POSTAL. Was born here in Dallas and I went through all school here to my first year at Adamson, and went to California and finished up out there.

Mr. BALL. Finished high school there?

Mrs. POSTAL. Went through 4 years of it.

Mr. BALL. In California?

 

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Mrs. POSTAL. In California, and then I lived there for 12 years and came back here. I have been here ever since.

Mr. BALL. What has been your occupation?

Mrs. POSTAL. Well, basically it has been theatre, cashier, and officework in connection with theatres.

Mr. BALL. You have been to California? Did you work in theatres there?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; I worked at the Paramount Theatre, and Graumans, and R.K.O. Used to work for the Pantages. Worked for the Wilshire in the office.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been back from California, to Dallas?

Mrs. POSTAL. Oh, me, I have been there 11 years, 14 or 15 years; really, I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. Have you been working? You are now working where?

Mrs. POSTAL. With the Texas----really, it is United Theatres, Inc. at the Texas Theatre.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been working there?

Mrs. POSTAL. It was 11 years last November 24.

Mr. BALL. Same theatre?

Mrs. POSTAL. Same theatre.

Mr. BALL. What were your hours of work last fall?

Mrs. POSTAL. Last fall? Well, let's see, I worked in the office, and then stared cutting down personnel and I worked in the office until they opened the box office at 12:45, and then come down to the box office and worked until 5.

Mr. BALL. When you say worked in the box office, is that take tickets?

Mrs. POSTAL. Sell tickets.

Mr. BALL. Sell tickets. Is there a ticket taker inside the theatre?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; now, during the slack period like this with school, just an usher who works the concession and tears the tickets, because it is just straight through.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, Friday, November 22, 1963, what time did your box office open?

Mrs. POSTAL. We open daily at 12:45, sometimes may be 5, 4 minutes later or something, but that is our regular hours.

Mr. BALL. On this day you opened on 12:45, November 22?

Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. And on that day, did you have the ticket taker working around 12:45, 1 o'clock?

Mrs. POSTAL. Just the usher, which, as I said, works the concession and ticket.

Mr. BALL What was his name?

Mrs. POSTAL. Warren Burroughs. Call him Butch.

Mr. BALL. Butch Burroughs?

Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Was he stationed inside the door, the entrance to the theatre?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; he stays, actually, behind the concession counter, but as I said, the concession runs for the entire way as you go in the door and it runs this way so that you can see the door and steps insides, and tears tickets.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you have a radio in your ticket office?

Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh, a transistor.

Mr. BALL. Had you heard that the President had been shot?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; my daughter had called me at the office before we opened up and said it was on the TV, so I then turned the little transistor on right away, and of course it verified the they were saying again that he had been shot.

Mr. BALL. And did you find out that he had died here? That President Kennedy was dead or----

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. You didn't hear that?

Mrs. POSTAL. I was listening to KLIF, and I was down in the little box office, and they kept saying that Parkland hadn't issued an official report, that he had been removed from the operating table, and everyone wanted to surmise, but still hope, and it was after this that they came out and said that he was officially dead.

 

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Mr. BALL. But, you didn't hear that when you were in the box office, did you?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, I did. In fact, I was just about----it was just about the time all chaos broke loose.

Mr. BALL. Now, did many people go into the theatre from the time you opened at the box office until about 1:15 or so?

Mrs. POSTAL. Some.

Mr. BALL. How many? Can you give me an estimate?

Mrs. POSTAL. I believe 24.

Mr. BALL. Twenty-four?

Mrs. POSTAL. Fourteen or twenty-four. I believe it was 24. Everything was happening so fast.

Mr. BALL. You had sold about that many tickets?

Mrs. POSTAL. That's right.

Mr. BALL What was the price of admission?

Mrs. POSTAL. We had three. Adults 90 cents, teenager with a card is 50 cents, and a child is 35, and you have a pass ticket.

Mr. BALL. It is cheaper that time of day than other times of day?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; we don't change prices. Used to, but we don't.

Mr. BALL. Same price?

Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you see anybody go in the theatre well, did you see any activity on the street?

Mrs. POSTAL. Now, yes, sir; just about the time we opened, my employer had stayed and took the tickets because we change pictures on Thursday and want to do anything, he----and about this time I heard the sirens----police was racing back and forth.

Mr. BALL. On Jefferson?

Mrs. POSTAL. On Jefferson Boulevard, and then we made the remark, "Some thing is about to bust," or "pop," or something to that effect, so, it was just about----some sirens were going west, and my employer got in his car. He was parked in front, to go up to see where they were going. He, perhaps I said, he passed Oswald. At that time I didn't know it was Oswald. Had to bypass him, because as he went through this way, Oswald went through this way and ducked into the theatre there.

Mr. BALL. Let me see. Had you ever seen this man before then at that particular theatre?

Mrs. POSTAL. Not that I know of, huh-uh.

Mr. BALL A police car had gone by just before this?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; going west.

Mr. BALL. Its siren on?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; full blast.

Mr. BALL. And after you saw the police car go west with its siren on, why at the time the police car went west with its siren on, did you see the man that ducked? This man that you were----

Mrs. POSTAL. This man, yes; he ducked into the box office and----I don't know if you are familiar with the theatre.

Mr. BALL. Yes; I have seen the theatre.

Mrs. POSTAL. You have? Well, he was coming from east going west. In other words, he ducked right in.

Mr. BALL. Ducked in, what do you mean? He had come around the corner----

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; and when the sirens went by he had a panicked look on his face, and he ducked in.

Mr. BALL. Now, as the car went by, you say the man ducked in, had you seen him before the car went by, the police went by?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I was looking up, as I say, when the cars passed, as you know, they make a tremendous noise, and he ducked in as my boss went that way to get in his car.

Mr. BALL. Who is your boss?

Mrs. POSTAL. Mr. John A. Callahan.

Mr. BALL. Where did you say he was?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; I say, they bypassed each other, actually, the man ducked in this way and my employer went that-a-way, to get in his car.

 

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Mr. BALL. When you say "ducked in," you mean he entered the door from the street?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; just ducked into the other----into the outer part of it.

Mr. BALL. I see, out in the open space?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; just right around the corner.

Mr. BALL. Just right around the corner?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And your boss passed him, did he?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; they went----one came one way, and one went the other way just at the same time.

Mr. BALL. What did you see him do after became around the corner?

Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I didn't actually----because I stepped out of the box office and went to the front and was facing west. I was right at the box office facing west, because I thought .the police were stopping up quite a ways. Well, just as I turned around then Johnny Brewer was standing there and he asked me if the fellow that ducked in bought a ticket, and I said, "No; by golly, he didn't," and turned around expecting to see him.

Mr. BALL. And he had ducked in?

Mrs. POSTAL. And Mr. Brewer said he had been ducking in at his place of business, and he had gone by me, because I was facing west, and I said, "Go in and see if you can see him," it isn't too much people in there. So, he came and says, well, he didn't see him, and I says, "Well, he has to be there." So I told him to go back and check----we have exit doors, behind--one behind the stage and one straight through, and asked him to check them, check the lounges because I knew he was in there. Well, he just had to be.

Mr. BALL. The last time you had seen him before he ducked in, he was just standing outside of the door, was he?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; he was still just in----just off of the sidewalk, and he headed for the theatre.

Mr. BALL. Were the doors of the theatre open?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. It was closed?

Mrs. POSTAL. It was closed.

Mr. BALL. And you didn't see him actually enter the theatre then?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You hadn't seen him go by you?

Mrs. POSTAL. I knew he didn't go by me, because I was facing west, and Johnny, he had come up from east which meant he didn't go back that way. He had come from east going west.

Mr. BALL. All right, now what happened after that?

Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I, like----I told him----asked him to check everything.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask Butch Burroughs if he had seen him?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I told Johnny this, don't tell him, because he is an excitable person, and just have him, you know, go with you and examine the exits and check real good, so, he came back and said he hadn't seen anything although, he had heard a seat pop up like somebody getting out, but there was nobody around that area, so, I told Johnny about the fact that the President had been assassinated. "I don't know if this is the man they want," I said, "in there, but he is running from them for some reason," and I said "I am going to call the police, and you and Butch go get on each of the exit doors and stay there."

So, well, I called the police, and he wanted to know why I thought it was their man, and I said, "Well, I didn't know," and he said, "Well, it fits the description," and I have not---I said I hadn't heard the description. All I know is, "This man is running from them for some reason." And he wanted to know why, and told him because everytime the sirens go by he would duck and he wanted to know----well, if he fits the description is what he says. I said, "Let me tell you what he looks like and you take it from there." And explained that he had on this brown sports shirt and I couldn't tell you what design it was, and medium height, ruddy looking to me, and he said, "Thank you," and I called the operator and asked him to look through the little hole and see if he could see anything and told him I had called the police, and what was happening, and

 

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he wanted to know if I wanted him to cut the picture off, and I says, "No, let's wait until they get here." So, seemed like I hung up the intercom phone when here all of a sudden, police cars, policemen, plainclothesmen, I never saw so many people in my life. And they raced in, and the next thing I knew, they were carrying----well, that is when I first heard Officer Tippit had been shot because some officer came in the box office and used the phone, said, "I think we have got our man on both accounts." "What two accounts?" And said, "Well, Officer Tippit's," shocked me, because Officer Tippit used to work part time for us years ago. I didn't know him personally.

Mr. BALL. You mean he guarded the theatre?

Mrs. POSTAL. On Friday nights and Saturdays, canvass the theatre, you know, and that----then they were bringing Oswald out the door over there and ----

Mr. BALL. Well, now, was this before they had gone into the theatre that this officer used the phone?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. It was after?

Mrs. POSTAL. There was not one man walked through this theatre. They were running.

Mr. BALL. Did the officers go in the front of the theatre?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes. Definitely.

Mr. BALL. Did you go in?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I stayed at the box office.

Mr. BALL. You didn't see anything that happened inside?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see them bring a man out?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How many men had hold of him?

Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I----like I said, the public was getting there at that time, and the streets, sidewalk and around the streets and everything and they brought him out the double doors here [indicating]. I remember, the officer had his hands behind him with his chin back like this [indicating] because I understand he had been using some profuse (sic) language which----inside. I'd say four or five.

Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed?

Mrs. POSTAL. I don't know, sir, because the officers were all around him and from the rear there and his hands were to his back.

Mr. BALL. They were?

Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. And an officer had hold of him from the side?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; this way.

Mr. BALL. With his arm underneath his chin?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he have any bruises or cuts? Did Oswald have any bruises or cuts on his face?

Mrs. POSTAL. No.

Mr. BALL. You didn't see any?

Mrs. POSTAL. No; huh-uh.

Mr. BALL. Was he saying anything?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; as I said, that was my understanding, that is the reason that they had him like that, because he was screaming.

Mr. BALL. But, you didn't hear him say anything?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir. He couldn't possibly say anything the way they had him.

Mr. BALL. What happened then?

Mrs. POSTAL. That is when I really started shaking. I had never seen a live mob scene, that----

Mr. BALL. Well----

Mrs. POSTAL. They said, "What is going on?" And someone said, "Suspect," and they started in this way, just about that time I got out to the box office, back to the box office, and they stared screaming profuse language and----"Kill the so-and-so," and trying to get to him, and this and that and the officers were trying to hold on to Oswald----when I say, "Oswald," that man, because as I said, I

 

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didn't know who he was at that time and they was trying to hold him, because he was putting up a struggle, and then trying to keep the public off, and on the way to the car, parked right out front, one of the officers was----at that time I thought he was putting his hat on the man's face to try to keep the public from grabbing him by the hair, but I later read in the paper it was to cover his face and then he got him in the ear, and all bedlam, so far as the public, broke.

Mr. BALL. They drove away with him, did they?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; that one ear did; uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever go down to the police station?

Mrs. POSTAL. Police station?

Mr. BALL. Yes; later the city hall or police office?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; I went down to the homicidal bureau.

Mr. BALL. When?

Mrs. POSTAL. Well, let's see, that was a Friday. I believe it was the Thursday following.

Mr. BALL. You didn't go down there that day?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, stir.

Mr. BALL. Did you go down there the next day?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. According to your affidavit, it shows that you signed it on the 4th of December. Would that be about right?

Mrs. POSTAL. Was that on Thursday?

Mr. BALL. Yes; I think.

Mrs. POSTAL. I can't remember. I think it was a Thursday.

Mr. BALL. That was after Oswald was dead?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; well, yes; because he was killed on the 24th, yes; because I know I didn't go down until the following week.

Mr. BALL Now, was it after Oswald, the man brought out on----out of the theatre was taken away in the car that the officer called and said, "I'm sure we have got our man---- "?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; that officer came out of the theatre and grabbed at the phone and made the call about simultaneously as they were bringing Oswald out.

Mr. BALL. And that was when you heard that Officer Tippit had been shot?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Why didn't Warren Burroughs see him get in, get in there? Do you have any idea?

Mrs. POSTAL. We talked about that, and the concession stand is along here, and if he came in on the other end, which we summarized that is what Oswald did, because the steps, immediately as you open the door there. It has been done before with kids trying to sneak in, run right on up in the balcony.

Mr. BALL. You asked Warren Burroughs why he didn't see him. did you?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; we kidded him quite a bit anyway, because some people do then get by him.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mrs. POSTAL. Ah, he said at first that he had seen him, and I says, "Now, Butch, if you saw him come in----" says, "Well, I saw him going out." But he didn't really see him. So, he just summarized that he ran up in the balcony, because if he had come through the foyer, Butch would have seen him.

Mr. BALL. He was arrested, though, down in the orchestra, the second row from the----

Mrs. POSTAL. Third.

Mr. BALL. Third?

Mrs. POSTAL. Three rows down, five seats over.

Mr. BALL. I was trying to say the third row. How could he get from the balcony down there?

Mrs. POSTAL. Oh, that is very easy. You can go up in the balcony and fight straight down, those steps come back down, and that would bring you into it. He wouldn't have to go by Butch at all.

Mr. BALL. Oh, I see. And he could get into the balcony without Butch's seeing him?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; if Butch was down in the other end getting something.

 

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Mr. BALL. And he could go in?

Mrs. POSTAL. He could have gotten in.

Mr. BALL. All right. I show you an Exhibit 150, a shirt. Does that look anything like the shirt he had on?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, it was something like this shirt. I couldn't say it is the same except it was brown and it was hanging out.

Mr. BALL. Outside his pants?

Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Wasn't tucked into his pants?

Mrs. POSTAL. Huh-uh.

Mr. BALL. When he went in was it tucked in his pants when he went in?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; because I remember he came flying around the corner, because his hair was and shirt was kind of waving.

Mr. BALL. And his shirt was out?

Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh

Mr. BALL. You say----

Mrs. POSTAL. It was hanging out.

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Postal, this will be written up and you can read it and sign it if you wish, or you can waive signature and we will send it on to the Commission without your signature. Now, how do you feel about it? Do you want to do that?

Mrs. POSTAL. I don't know. I mean, this is all new to me anyway.

Mr. BALL. Would you just as leave waive your signature?

Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I see no reason why not.

Mr. BALL. Okay. Fine.

Then you don't have to come down and sign it. We will send it without your signature. Thank you, very much for coming in.

 

-------------------------------

Warren H. Burroughs


 

 

george senator

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE SENATOR

The testimony of George Senator was taken at 9:45 a.m., on April 21, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of George Senator beginning at 9:45 a.m. Mr. Senator, my name is Leon Hubert and this is Mr. Burt Griffin. We are both members of the advisory staff of the President's Commission.
Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint Resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, we have both been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Senator.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mr. Senator, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and about Jack Ruby.
Now, Mr. Senator, I think you have appeared today by virtue of written request made to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission. Is that a fact, sir?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive that letter?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the date of it?
Mr. SENATOR. April 16, 1964.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive it?
Mr. SENATOR. I received it Saturday. I don't know what date it was. What was the date Saturday?
Mr. HUBERT. Saturday would have been the 18th.
Now, under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of the deposition, but the rules adopted by the Commission also provide that a witness may waive this notice, and I ask you now whether you do waive the notice in the event that you did not get the full 3 days.
Mr. SENATOR. We will continue.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand by your answer that you say that you do waive it.
Mr. SENATOR. I waive it.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, Mr. Senator. Will you rise now and take the oath?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. SENATOR. I do.

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Mr. HUBERT. Now will you state your full name?
Mr. SENATOR. George Senator.
Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, Mr. Senator?
Mr. SENATOR. Fifty years old. I was born in Gloversville, N.Y.
Mr. HUBERT. And when?
Mr. SENATOR. September 4, 1913.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your present address, that is residence?
Mr. SENATOR. Right now?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. 2255 Grand Concourse, Bronx, N.Y.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that your permanent residence?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I mean I just come up, you know, I just came to New York about 2 1/2 weeks ago and am staying with my sister temporarily.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you propose to go to another place, to move to another place?
Mr. SENATOR. Eventually I will, yes; in New York, but momentarily I do not know where.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you are staying at your sister's home temporarily?
Mr. SENATOR. Temporarily.
Mr. HUBERT. But your purpose is to live in New York?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you will, when you find an apartment, some other place to live, move out from your sister's house?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if you would go over briefly in your own words the facts of your life, particularly where you lived, and your occupation, beginning actually with your education.
Mr. SENATOR. My education was up to the eighth grade.
Mr. HUBERT. And where was that?
Mr. SENATOR. Gloversville, N.Y.
Mr. HUBERT. Then after you finished the eighth grade, what did you do?
Mr. SENATOR. I moved to New York and went to work.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean New York City?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; New York City. I lived with my sister, too. I mean I moved in with my sister at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the same sister you are now living with?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is her name, by the way?
Mr. SENATOR. Freda Weisberg, Mrs. A. J. Weisberg.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live with her?
Mr. SENATOR. Originally, let me say approximately about 3 years. I went back and forth actually from New York back to home. Of course, I was only in my teens then.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of work did you do?
Mr. SENATOR. In New York I was working in a silk house, I was working for a wholesaler where we delivered silk to the dress manufacturer.
Mr. HUBERT. And you continued in that occupation----
Mr. SENATOR. Just in my young teens.
Mr. HUBERT. Until you were how old?
Mr. SENATOR. Possibly about 18, to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. You were living with your sister as you said?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, at age 18, did your life take a change by way of occupation and residence?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I got sick a couple of times so every time I got sick I went home to mother. I went back home. Of course, the distance, was about 190 miles from my home town to New York City. At one time I had pleurisy, went back home and stayed a year. Another time I had peritonitis. I went back home again.
Mr. HUBERT. This was after age 18 or before?
Mr. SENATOR. No; this is now after 18.
Mr. HUBERT. Then I take it that after age 18 and for a period of 1 or 2 years

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you were not working because of illness and you were staying mostly with your mother at home?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; well, my brother had a restaurant, or rather, still does. He has a restaurant. I used to help him up there.
Mr. HUBERT. Where? What place was that?
Mr. SENATOR. Gloversville, N.Y. He had a restaurant by his name, by his last name.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work with him?
Mr. SENATOR. On and off, this is a rough guess, it has been so many years. I would probably say maybe a couple of years, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. At which time you lived with your mother?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, I lived home.
Mr. HUBERT. Would that take us then in your life to about age 22?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say around there, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened after those days of your life?
Mr. SENATOR. Then I went back. I can't quote you the exact years, but I went back to New York.
Mr. HUBERT. City, you mean?
Mr. SENATOR. New York City, and I went to work for a--I was jerking sodas in the early thirties. That is when I was in my twenties yet then.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live during that period?
Mr. SENATOR. I was still home with my sister. I went back. I shuttled either from my sister to my mother.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not have any residence of your own?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did she live during that period?
Mr. SENATOR. My sister? She lived in the Bronx, still does.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean the same address?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the address, or were there several? I am talking now about this other period, you see, that is to say when you----
Mr. SENATOR. I can think of the streets but I probably could not think of the numbers.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, that is all right. Give us the streets.
Mr. SENATOR. All right. When I originally came to New York it was on Davidson Avenue in the Bronx.
Mr. HUBERT. That would have been when you were about 12 years old?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no. I first came to New York when I was 15.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did she live then?
Mr. SENATOR. On Davidson Avenue in the Bronx. Then from Davidson I think I moved to Walton Avenue. These are all close by, these streets, you know. I would probably say a distance of maybe 4, 5, or 6 blocks, something of that nature. Then I lived there--I am trying to think now. I have to jump back a lot of years and can't think of these outright.
Mr. HUBERT. We understand that and we understand therefore that your answers must be approximations.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, they are approximations. When I got this job jerking sodas there, now I'm in my twenties already. Of course, this is in the 1930 years. I was approximately around 25 when I was working in the Bronx jerking sodas and still living with my sister.
Mr. HUBERT. That was around 1938, I take it?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, and 1939; 1938 and 1939.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the place at which you worked?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, sure, J. S. Krums, chocolatiers. That is on the Grand Concourse.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say I may have been there around 2 years. Now this is roughly guessing. Then the place went out on strike and I went out of a job. Then from there, two other fellows who were employed with us, we all went down to Florida. We went down to Florida for the winter and got a job there for $14 a week and stayed all winter, then we come back again.

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Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work were you doing and who was your employer?
Mr. SENATOR. I couldn't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Or employers?
Mr. SENATOR. I couldn't remember. It was a cafeteria with a soda fountain and I worked at the soda fountain. It has been so many, many years.
Mr. HUBERT. Who were the other two people that you went with?
Mr. SENATOR. One fellow, his name was Ike Heilberun, and the other is--I can't remember his name.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen either of those two people in the last 10 or 20 years?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say--no, one I haven't seen in many, many years. As a matter of fact, I think even before the war.
Mr. HUBERT. Which one, the one whose name you don't remember?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And the other one?
Mr. SENATOR. The other I think the last time I saw him must have been maybe around 6 years or 7 years ago. He is down in Florida.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work is he doing?
Mr. SENATOR. He is in the stationery business, if he still is, I mean. He was.
Mr. HUBERT. And you met him in connection with work or socially or how, that is 6 years ago?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; it happened to be I went down there. I went down there for a vacation there.
Mr. HUBERT. And you looked him up?
Mr. SENATOR. And I looked him up and I found him and when I found him he was in the stationery end.
Mr. HUBERT. How extended was your visit with him then?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, just casual. I would probably say maybe I saw him two or three times.
Mr. HUBERT. No business relations?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no; no business relations whatsoever.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's go back now and pick up the time when you came back from Florida. I say "came back." I assume you went back to New York.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I went back to New York.
Mr. HUBERT. And tell us again----
Mr. SENATOR. I do not remember if I stayed in New York or went back home now, because I would say on and off I had worked for my brother at various times.
Mr. HUBERT. Your brother?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is his name?
Mr. SENATOR. Jake Senator. Senator's Restaurant in Gloversville, N.Y. I worked on and off at his place many times.
Mr. HUBERT. How far have you progressed in your own mind as to this chronicle of your life? We are up to what year now that you were working for your brother?
Mr. SENATOR. At the time I enlisted. In other words, when the war broke out I enlisted down at Albany, N.Y., at the Federal Building in Albany, N.Y. That was in August of 1941, I believe. I think it was August 20 or August 21, 1941, and I was with my brother at the time when I enlisted.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember working for the Admiral Hotel in Miami Beach and the Times Square Cafeteria?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is it. That is the place, the Times Square Cafeteria.
Mr. HUBERT. And David and Elizabeth Rosner at the Astor Hotel?
Mr. SENATOR. It could be possible. I just don't remember. It could be possible.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you were in Miami and worked for several people whose names I have mentioned during the winter of 1939-40 and until about the end of the season in Miami Beach, I take it?
Mr. SENATOR. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you enlist?
Mr. SENATOR. I enlisted August 20 or 21 of 1941.
Mr. HUBERT. That was before Pearl Harbor then?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

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Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what you did or where you lived from the summer of 1940?
Mr. SENATOR. What is that?
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what occupation you had or where you lived from the summer of 1940 when you returned from Miami to New York until you entered into the service in August of 1941?
Mr. SENATOR. I believe I was back home with my brother.
Mr. HUBERT. That is working for him?
Mr. SENATOR. The restaurant, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in the service?
Mr. SENATOR. I'll have to read it, or I'll let you read it.
Mr. HUBERT. No; that is all right. You served for the duration of the war, I suppose? You hand me now a little document which is a laminated copy.
Mr. SENATOR. The reason I handed you that is because I lost my original and I am happy that I have got that.
Mr. HUBERT. You were honorably discharged from the Army of the United States on September 9, 1945, given to you at the Separation Center, Fort Dix, N.J? This reflects also that you were a staff sergeant.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That your serial number was 12006042, and that at the time of your discharge you were with the 101st Bomber Fortress Squadron?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; when I came out.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Then after you left the service in September of 1945, where did you go and what did you do?
Mr. SENATOR. When I came back out of the service, this fellow Ike Heilberun, who I mentioned living down there, we went into the luncheonette business and lasted approximately about a year and lost our shirts.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of that? Is that the outfit called the Denise Foods, Inc.?
Mr. SENATOR. Where is that located? Do you have the location on that?
Mr. HUBERT. 254 West 35th Street.
Mr. SENATOR. I couldn't remember the name. I remember the street. That is why I asked you.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, that was a corporation formed by you and this man you talked about?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. We bought somebody out, that is right.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were occupied with that endeavor through most of 1946?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say approximately about that to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. And where did you live then?
Mr. SENATOR. I was living--of course, I can't remember if I got married before that or after that.
Mr. HUBERT. But sometime along in there after you left the service, you got married?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I believe I got married in January 1946, if I am not mistaken.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of the lady you married?
Mr. SENATOR. Sherley Baren.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell that?
Mr. SENATOR. B-a-r-e-n.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you still married to her?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you divorced?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When? Approximately.
Mr. SENATOR. Approximately about 7 years.
Mr. HUBERT. Ago?
Mr. SENATOR. Approximately, I'm not sure of the date. I'd say approximately about that.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you lived together as man and wife approximately for 10 years?

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Mr. SENATOR. No, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Seven years ago would be 1957. You said that you married her in January of 1946. Maybe you did not live together that long. Maybe the divorce came after you had physically separated.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Actually, we had been separated I would probably say around 3 years, I think. I think it must have been around 3 years.
Mr. HUBERT. Before the divorce?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I think that is it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any children of that marriage?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I have one son 16 years old.
Mr. HUBERT. He is now 16 years old?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is his name?
Mr. SENATOR. Bobby.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you divorced?
Mr. SENATOR. Through the mail. She was in Miami and I was in Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. But where were the divorce proceedings actually instituted?
Mr. SENATOR. In Miami.
Mr. HUBERT. She brought the divorce suit?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Has she remarried?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know to whom?
Mr. SENATOR. His name is Milton Wechsler. I am not sure of the spelling of it. I think it is W-e-c-h-s-l-e-r. I think that is how you spell it.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where they live?
Mr. SENATOR. Coral Gables.
Mr. HUBERT. Now would you tell us of your occupation and residences after your marriage, say from January 1946 forward?
Mr. SENATOR. After I went out of business, after my partner and I went out of business, I moved down to Miami and I had two or three odd jobs there.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?
Mr. SENATOR. At these jobs, do you mean?
Mr. HUBERT. No.
Mr. SENATOR. Or Miami?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I stayed in Miami, I would say, around 7 or 8 years. As a rough guess, something like that, offhand.
Mr. HUBERT. You had a number of jobs during the first year that you got there; is that right?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work did you do?
Mr. SENATOR. Restaurant-type work.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice that your social security records indicate that you either had no earnings or at least that none were reported for the second half of 1947 and the first half of 1948, approximately a year. Can you explain that?
Mr. SENATOR. 1947 and 1948?
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, for the third and fourth quarters from a social security point of view of 1947 and the first and second quarters----
Mr. SENATOR. Of 1948?
Mr. HUBERT. Of 1948, so it would be roughly from July 1947 to June of 1948 there were no earnings reported.
Mr. SENATOR. 1947 and 1948?
Mr. HUBERT. After which--this may assist your memory--for the third quarter of 1948, that is say from July on, you report having worked at the Lake Carrolton Club Grill in Pike, N.H.
Mr. SENATOR Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So, perhaps if you remember working in New Hampshire, you can back off and tell us what happened in that year when there were no earnings reported. This may assist you too. The social security records show that in the first quarter of 1947, that would have been January, February, and March, you apparently worked for the T-A Hensroost.

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Mr. SENATOR. I believe that was the first job I had when I got down in Miami, if I am not mistaken. I think that was the first job I got. That was an open stand on the oceanfront.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember that you worked there actually for the first 6 months?
Mr. SENATOR. At the Hensroost?
Mr. HUBERT. Of 1947.
Mr. SENATOR. At Hensroost? I can't quote how long I worked there, but I know that I worked there.
Mr. HUBERT. Now then, perhaps we can reconstruct the thing, because you apparently left there at the Hensroost in midsummer of 1947, and then you pick up in midsummer of 1948 in New Hampshire, and it is the intervening year that I would like to have you cover.
Mr. SENATOR. Wait a minute. Oh, then I think after that, yes, I was out of a job for a while and I don't recall how long. Then I got a job in another little luncheonette for a while and I don't know how long that was.
Mr. HUBERT. It may be that you did not have enough earnings to require reporting them, you see. What I am trying to do is assist your memory. Do you recall leaving Miami Beach to go to New Hampshire?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure; I remember going. I don't remember what year, but I remember going, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time of the year, whatever year it was?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I went there for one summer.
Mr. HUBERT. For the season?
Mr. SENATOR. The season; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Your wife went with you?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. She stayed in Miami?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When you finished the season there, what happened?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I come back and I was--I'm trying to think. What year was that, 1940-what?
Mr. HUBERT. It was the last half of 1948. Perhaps I can assist your memory too by pointing out that your social security records indicate that you worked for T-A Troops.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, that is the place I was trying to mention to you but I couldn't think of it. Now I don't remember if I worked for that place after I come back or before. That is the thing I don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. You worked for that place quite a length of time, I believe.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long? Do you remember?
Mr. SENATOR. Gee, I don't remember how long I worked there.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live when you were working for Troops?
Mr. SENATOR. Northwest Fourth Terrace.
Mr. HUBERT. Miami Beach?
Mr. SENATOR. No; Miami.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the restaurant was in Miami Beach?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. On Collins Avenue?
Mr. SENATOR. That is right; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You lived in Miami City itself?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you living with your wife then?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what your next move was?
Mr. SENATOR. I believe my next move is I got a job selling. I was broken in selling women's apparel, if I recall right.
Mr. HUBERT. Women's apparel?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Before we leave the Miami Beach situation, what was the cause of your leaving Miami Beach and the Miami area, because apparently you did?
Mr. SENATOR. You mean when I went to Texas?

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Mr. HUBERT. No, when you left Miami you did not go directly to Texas, did you?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure.
Mr. HUBERT. You did?
Mr. SENATOR. Sure. Come this May 15, and I think I am pretty well on the date, I have been in Texas 10 years.
Mr. HUBERT. So you moved to Texas in 1954?
Mr. SENATOR. May of 1954.
Mr. HubERT. Do you remember working for the Rhea Manufacturing Co.?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; out of Milwaukee, Wis. That was my start. Is that in the year of 1950, something like that? I don't remember, 1949, 1948?
Mr. HUBERT. The social security records indicate 1951.
Mr. SENATOR. Is that what it is? I just don't remember. It could be 1951.
Mr. HUBERT. You were working for Rhea Manufacturing Co., and the records also show that you worked for Smoler Bros., Inc., in Chicago.
Mr. SENATOR. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. The Rhea Manufacturing Co. was in Milwaukee, Wis. Did you live in Milwaukee?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And in Chicago?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words----
Mr. SENATOR. I only worked for them out of there. In other words, the only time that I ever went there is when they had sales meetings, when they called the people in for sales meetings.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you living then?
Mr. SENATOR. In Miami.
Mr. HUBERT. That same residence?
Mr. SENATOR. Northwest Fourth Terrace?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your area, sales area?
Mr. SENATOR. Florida.
Mr. HUBERT. Just Florida?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You sold women's apparel?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Wholesale?
Mr. SENATOR. Wholesalers. They were manufacturers.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice from these records, too, that apparently during the years 1951, 1952, and 1953, your employer seems to alternate between Smoler Bros., Inc., and Hartley's, whose address is given as 144 East Flagler in Miami.
Mr. SENATOR. Hartley's is a large--it almost looks like a department store but it is not. It is a large specialty shop.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you working for both?
Mr. SENATOR. The only time I worked for Hartley's was, I think it was either one or two seasons. I don't remember which. Just for the Christmas holidays only.
Mr. HUBERT. When you did work for Hartley's, did you leave Smoler's?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Smoler's continued right on?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. In other words, I would probably say maybe a week or something like that before the Christmas holidays I worked in there. I would say approximately like that. Approximately a week or something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. These records also indicate that actually you worked for Smoler's Chicago, wherever you actually lived or whatever your territory might have been, until 1958; is that correct?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Smoler's is the one who forced me to Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that.
Mr. SENATOR. There were two men they were releasing in Dallas, Tex., and it to be I was in Atlanta, Ga. and it happened to be on a Friday, I recall very distinctly. My boss called me and I couldn't imagine what he was

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calling me for. He, said, "George, we are releasing a couple of men and we want you to go to Dallas." And I didn't want to go. But he said, "You are going." So I wound up in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that? I know you said is was a Friday, but do you remember the year, the month?
Mr. SENATOR. No. Oh, wait; yes. It was 10 years ago.
Mr. HUBERT. 1954?
Mr. SENATOR. Because I have been there--come next month, it will be 10 years I have been there.
Mr. HUBERT. So the telephone conversation on Friday would have been in May of 1954, on a Friday?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Actually, May 15, I think you said.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I think I arrived in Dallas, I think it was May 15.
Mr. HUBERT. Did your wife go with you?
Mr. SENATOR. No; she wouldn't go.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been living together up to that time?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that the cause of your separation?
Mr. SENATOR. I believe that is.
Mr. HUBERT. She never did go to Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. No; she wouldn't go, and I had a job to hold down.
Mr. HUBERT. She kept the child?
Mr. SENATOR. She kept the child.
Mr. HUBERT. And still has it?
Mr. SENATOR. And still has it, and, of course, there could have been a possibility if I didn't go--I only say possibility--that I could have been released from my job. This, I only say, there could have been a possibility.
Mr. HUBERT. Now tell us what you did then in Dallas. You continued to work, I take it, for Smoler's?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live? Can you give us a list of the various places where you lived?
Mr. SENATOR. The first year I was just living, you know, in motels, from one place, you know, wherever I was, because I was traveling the State of Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your territory there?
Mr. SENATOR. Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. The whole of Texas?
Mr. SENATOR. I started off the whole thing and then I wound down until I probably wound up with just a corner of it. And when I wound up with that there I said this is not for me, because I can't make it on only part of Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, that comes a little later.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live in Dallas? Give us a list of your various addresses just roughly.
Mr. SENATOR. The first place that I actually centrally located in, I don't remember the name of the place but I do remember the name of the street.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. SENATOR. I could go to the place and know where it is but I can't think of the name of the place, which was on McKinney Avenue.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know. I would probably say, I'd have to guess, I would probably say maybe 6 months to a year. I'm not sure now.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it an apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it was an apartment.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you alone?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I was with a couple other boys.
Mr. HUBERT. Who were they?
Mr. SENATOR. One fellow by the name of George Guest. George Guest, he was a, what do you call them, xylophones. He was a musician.
Mr. HUBERT. He played the instrument called the xylophone?

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Mr. SENATOR. What is the one with the woods? It is not xylophone. What is the one that is made out of wood?
Mr. HUBERT. Marimba?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, it is the marimba. Is the marimba made out of wood?
Mr. HUBERT. As a musical instrument?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. A percussion instrument?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did he work?
Mr. SENATOR. He played wherever he got engagements. He got hooked locally, out of town.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was the other one?
Mr. SENATOR. The other one who stayed with us a short while, his name was Mort Seder.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he do?
Mr. SENATOR. He sells men's apparel, traveling salesman.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you maintained contact with either of those?
Mr. SENATOR. George Guest got married many, many, years ago. The last I heard that at that time he had moved to, I think it was Fort Lauderdale by the sea.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the other one?
Mr. SENATOR. Seder I have seen, the last time I ran across Seder, of course, he is always traveling, the last time I saw him was, I would probably say in the last 2 months.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him often prior to that?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure. We lived together for a while. We lived together.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you lived together initially?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And then lived together after that?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes. Wait a minute, I'm trying to figure how we broke up. Oh, yes, we lived together for a while but he wanted his own place. He wanted to live alone. At that time he was not doing too well and he couldn't stand the pressure of having an apartment by himself, at that time. So we lived together.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the first 6 months or so when you settled in that place?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. It happened to be that we both almost got divorced around the same time. He was living in Houston at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, so that accounts, I take it, for your residence at the McKinney Street address.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that broke up?
Mr. SENATOR. No; from there it broke up and Seder and I moved to another place.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was that?
Mr. SENATOR. That was on Shadyside Lane.
Mr. HUBERT. And how long did you live there?
Mr. SENATOR. This is another guess. I would probably say 6 months to a year, with a guess again, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. That is you and Seder?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; Seder.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go from there?
Mr. SENATOR. Columbia Avenue.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say we may have lived there maybe a couple of years. I'm not sure now.
Mr. HUBERT. You were still with Seder then?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and that is where he wanted to have his own place.
Mr. HUBERT. So he left you, as it were?
Mr. SENATOR, Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you remain at the Columbia Avenue address?
Mr. SENATOR. I remained there for awhile.
Mr. HUBERT. And then what happened?

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Mr. SENATOR. I remained there for a while and then he stayed there. I'm trying to figure where I went from there.
Mr. HUBERT. After you left Seder, if you left the apartment in which you were living with Seder at Columbia Avenue, do you recall whether you then----
Mr. SENATOR. I stayed there for a while.
Mr. HUBERT. You stayed there for a while alone?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I had my own place.
Mr. HUBERT. When you moved next, did you move in with somebody else or were you alone?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I moved in with somebody else. I'm trying to think where, though.
Mr. HUBERT. It might help if you remember who it was that you lived with?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I moved to the Oasis.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that an apartment house?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; these are all apartment houses--the various places. They have all been apartment houses. That was on Live Oak. I believe that is where I moved next.
Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you share that apartment with?
Mr. SENATOR. I stayed there with two other boys, Ronnie Unger and Kenny--I can't think of his last name.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there?
Mr. SENATOR. Pardon me?
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there?
Mr. SENATOR. Let me get to this first, please. After I moved, when I moved in with them, the thing I was trying to figure out before I got there, now I got through with Smoler Brothers and I can't think of what year. Do you have a listting of it?
Mr. HUBERT. Our records indicate you last worked for Smoler's, or rather, that there is no more income reported from Smoler's after July of 1958.
Mr. SENATOR. That is probably when I got through, in 1958. That is when I got through with Smoler's, in 1958. I don't remember when I was with Smoler's that I was still living at Columbia Avenue or not. I may have been living there yet. I don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, we have the sequence of your addresses and the last place was at the Oasis.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, from Oasis where did you go to live?
Mr. SENATOR. Where I moved to?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. From the Oasis I think, I'm not sure now but I think from the-- I think I went on the road for 9 months and just lived all over, if I recall right.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you working with Smoler's then?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I'm not sure I went from the Oasis. I don't remember if I----
Mr. HUBERT. Let's see if this will assist your memory. The social security reports indicate that after the second quarter of 1958, which would mean after July of 1958, you reported no income or no earnings were reported, put it that way, for the last half of 1958, for all of 1959, for all of 1960, and for all of 1961. Now, can you tell us what you were doing and where you were living for those 3 1/2 years, starting from July of 1958 until apparently----
Mr. SENATOR. July of 1958?
Mr. HUBERT. July of 1958 until apparently the beginning of 1962, when you were employed by the Volume Sales Co. and Merchandise Mart, Dallas. That is 3 1/2 years there and I would like to know just what you were doing and where you were living?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don't know if I can put them all together right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do the best you can.
Mr. SENATOR. Now, when I was still living on Columbia Avenue, I don't remember if I was still with Smoler's then.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case you moved to the Oasis?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I moved to the Oasis.

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Mr. HUBERT. From the Oasis and after you left Smoler's whenever it was, you got on the road.
Mr. SENATOR. Wait; after I left Smoler's, I had a couple of odd jobs traveling which did not mean too much because they were not top lines and moneywise there was no money to really be made. These were odds, and then I finally got back with Rhea again.
Mr. HUBERT. R-h-e-a?
Mr. SENATOR. R-h-e-a. Rhea Manufacturing.
Mr. HUBERT. Milwaukee?
Mr. SENATOR. Milwaukee. I got back with Rhea again, I don't remember what year. But anyhow, in between that I would almost say there could be a span with a rough guess approximately about a year and a half I was unemployed.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you manage to sustain yourself by way of paying normal expenses?
Mr. SENATOR. I was cooking for the boys and doing odd things for them.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you living in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure.
Mr. HUBERT. All that period?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, during the period we are talking about, the 3 1/2 years from July of 1958 until January of 1962, you never did change your residence from Dallas, even though you might be traveling?
Mr. SENATOR. January of 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's get this part settled. From the time you left Smoler's, you were definitely living in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever actually establish a residence of a permanent nature other than in Dallas any place else?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. So that even though you were traveling during those years, doing odd jobs or for Rhea's, you always lived in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; wait, there was one time, excuse me, I was staying with a friend of mine in Houston. There was one time, I remember that.
Mr. HUBERT. How long ago?
Mr. SENATOR. But actually, that still wasn't a permanent residence because I was traveling with this guy because I was unemployed and I used to help him.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?
Mr. SENATOR. His name is George Hamrah.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell it?
Mr. SENATOR. H-a-m-r-a-h.
Mr. HUBERT. He still lives in Houston?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he still lives in Houston.
Mr. HUBERT. So aside from that period that you are talking about, you always lived in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you bring us forward then as to your residence from the Oasis on?
Mr. SENATOR. From the Oasis I believe now, I believe from the Oasis I went to Jack Ruby's, if I am not mistaken. I think I moved in with Jack.
Wait, I'll tell you when I moved in with Jack. It was in February or March, I'm not sure now, of 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. And you think that you were in the Oasis in the interval.
Mr. SENATOR. No, no; wait, wait. Before I moved in, excuse me, yes, I moved in with Jack from the Oasis. Now I lived in three different places in the Oasis with different boys because I was unemployed.
Mr. HUBERT. We are not particularly interested in the apartment numbers in the Oasis.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But we are in the names of the people that you lived with at the Oasis.

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Mr. SENATOR. I gave you the names----
Mr. HUBERT. Of two of them, as I recall.
Mr. SENATOR. Of one apartment.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Right. Then another apartment I live in, the fellow, his name was Frank Irwin.
Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead.
Mr. SENATOR. The other one was James Young, and the other one was--this is all in one apartment. I can't think of the other one's name.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen them in the last few years?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, the last time I saw any of them was around the latter part of last year.
Mr. HUBERT. Even the man whose name you don't know?
Mr. SENATOR. Even the man whose name I don't know. I'm trying to think of his name. I shouldn't forget it. I think it is John.
Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps it will come to you in a minute. We will come back to it.
Mr. SENATOR. I shouldn't forget his name as long as I've known him. I just can't put my finger----
Mr. HUBERT. But you lived with those people at the Oasis?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. At various apartments?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Until January or February of 1962 when you moved in with Jack Ruby; is that correct?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was Ruby living then?
Mr. SENATOR. Ruby was living at the Marsalla----
Mr. HUBERT. Palace?
Mr. SENATOR. There is a bunch of apartments there.
Mr. HUBERT. Marsalla South?
Mr. SENATOR. It may have been Marsalla South.
Mr. HUBERT. There is actually a Marsalis Street; is there not?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but there is an apartment, a few begin with Marsalla, Marsalla Apartments or Marsalla South. This one here was on Marsalla on the street.
Mr. HUBERT. It was on Marsalis Street?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live with Jack then?
Mr. SENATOR. At that time I stayed, I lived with him approximately 5 to 6 months; something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Anybody else live there with you?
Mr. SENATOR. No; Just Jack and myself.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the occasion for your leaving him?
Mr. SENATOR. I left him because I had a chance to go into the postcard business.
Mr. HUBERT. How does that relate to living Jack? You still live in Dallas; did you not?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure. I never left Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live after you left Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. After I left who?
Mr. HUBERT. Ruby. Now, incidentally, I judge from the dates that that would have been around in September.
Mr. SENATOR. August.
Mr. HUBERT. August of 1962?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; August.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go then?
Mr. SENATOR. I moved in with a fellow whose name was Stan Corbat.
Mr. HUBERT. And where was that apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. That was on Maple Avenue.
Mr. HUBERT. You say that the reason why you moved from Jack's was because you got a chance to be a salesman in the postcard business?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

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Mr. HUBERT. How does that relate, how does your getting this employment relate to your moving from Jack's apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack likes to live alone in the overall picture. First of all, it is an interference of the time that I wake up and the time that he goes to bed which don't coincide. That is part. And then Jack don't live too clean. I mean he is a type--in other words, he comes home, he is reading a newspaper, on the floor, if he is in the bathroom the newspaper goes on the floor and things of that nature. Though he was very clean about himself, he wasn't clean around the apartment.
Mr. HUBERT. I judge from what you tell me then that your real reasons for moving were those that you just mentioned rather than the fact that you got employment selling postcards? Is that correct?
Mr. SENATOR. Why I moved?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Please run that back again.
Mr. HUBERT. I say I judge from what you have said that the real reason for your moving from the apartment with Jack in 1962 was your dissatisfaction with the living conditions rather than that you got a job selling postcards?
Mr. SENATOR. No; not necessarily. I mean that is part of it. That is not necessarily it; no.
Mr. HUBERT. How does the postcard job, selling postcards, contribute or how did it contribute to the fact that you had to move from Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I didn't have to. I didn't have to; but this way here I started to get self-sustaining a little bit.
Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see. So you had a steady job?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; see, the other way, when I was living with Jack, of course, I was helping him at the club. I was helping him at the club, and, of course, I abided by everything he said and did.
Mr. HUBERT. So the reasons for moving then, were a combination of factors. One, that you were dissatisfied generally with the living conditions as you have indicated?
Mr. SENATOR. That is only partially it. I had a chance to go out.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were financially better off and you had a chance to go with Corbat, and you did?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And how long did you stay with Corbat?
Mr. SENATOR. When I went in with Corbat, of course, he only had a one-bedroom apartment and I had to sleep on the couch again. I slept on so many couches lately. So I told Stan, I told this friend of mine, Corbat, when we were staying on Maple Avenue, that just as soon as I get a little extra money I want to get a two-bedroom apartment and that is where I moved into this last apartment, 225 South Ewing.
Mr. HUBERT. That was about when?
Mr. SENATOR. I moved in there, I believe it was the latter part of November of 1962, we found a nice two-bedroom apartment that was very reasonable. I told Jack about it and Jack moved next door.
Mr. HUBERT. But he moved later than you, didn't he?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, see, I moved in first.
Mr. HUBERT. With Corbat?
Mr. SENATOR. No. Yes; first I went in alone, no furniture or nothing. I moved in alone and I was there approximately about a week or something like that, and Corbat stayed over at the other place because he wanted to finish the balance of the month out. He wanted his last days in there, you know, for we paid for the rent, and then he moved in right after that.
Mr. HUBERT. He moved in with you?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was in November of 1962?
Mr. SENATOR. I believe it was the latter part of November of 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. When did Ruby move in?
Mr. SENATOR. He moved in around that same time.
Mr. HUBERT. But after you?


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Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I would probably say within the week I would probably say, something like that, within that week.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you stayed there until when?
Mr. SENATOR. The unfateful day.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't live with Corbat all that while?
Mr.-SENATOR. No; I lived with Corbat from the time we moved in there until August.
Mr. HUBERT. Of 1963?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now, the reason Corbat moved out----
Mr. HUBERT. Ruby had another apartment in the same building?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, yes; we lived, you know, one apartment next to the other. Now, the reason Corbat moved was because he got married August 8, and there I was in the apartment alone and I couldn't handle it alone. But I did stay there 2 months with a struggle.
Mr. HUBERT. So then when did you move from that apartment to Ruby's apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. It was the first week in November of 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. By the way, would you state for the record what was the number of the apartment you and Corbat had?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know the number. I said Maple Avenue. The apartment was Cranberry. You mean on Maple Avenue?
Mr. HUBERT. No.
Mr. SENATOR. Room number?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; on South Ewing.
Mr. SENATOR. 223 South Ewing.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the apartment number that you lived in with Corbat which was next door, you say, to Jack's and what was Ruby's number. I want to get that in the record.
Mr. SENATOR. I think Ruby's was 206 and mine was 207, if I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. They were next to one another, or opposite?
Mr. SENATOR. No; in other words, you go along this corridor. There is one apartment here. Right next door there is another apartment.
Mr. HUBERT. And they are numbered in sequence?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; 206, I believe his was 206 and mine was 207, something like I think it was 206 and 207.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, for a moment, let's go back to Frank Irwin, who was one of your roommates. Have you seen him lately?
Mr. SENATOR. No, I have not seen Frank in, oh, I imagine it must be a couple years.
Mr. HUBERT. What was he doing when you last saw him?
Mr. SENATOR. What does he do?
Mr. HUBERT. What was he doing then?
Mr. SENATOR. I believe he is a guard for the Bell Helicopter.
Mr. HUBERT. What about James Young?
Mr. SENATOR. James Young works for a finance--I think it is a finance corporation called Warner.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you last see him?
Mr. SENATOR. I saw him, he was coming through, he was working out of El Paso and he was being transferred, I think he said to Oklahoma City, and I saw him that one day, rather, that one night in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. What time?
Mr. SENATOR. Prior to that time? couple years, I guess.
Mr. SENATOR. At night.
Mr. HUBERT. No; what day?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. What time of the year, what month?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I think it was in December.
Mr. HUBERT. Of 1963?
Mr. SENATOR. I think so, in December 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. When had you seen him prior to that time? I don't remember. It could have been a couple years, I guess.

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Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned that there was another man, a third man----
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Whose name you couldn't remember at the time. Can you remember his name now?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack Loftus.
Mr. HUBERT. L-o-f-t-u-s?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, that is correct, Jack Loftus, and he lives in Hillsboro, if he is still there.
Mr. HUBERT. What is his occupation?
Mr. SENATOR. I think he works for a newspaper down there now in Hillsboro.
Mr. HUBERT. Texas?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, Hillsboro, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. When was the last time you saw him?
Mr. SENATOR. I saw him the same night I saw Young. I may have seen him after that. I know I have seen him a couple of times, but I don't remember if it was after that or before that. I don't remember that, but I do definitely remember seeing him the last time in December. This part I do remember.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the same day you saw Young?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that just a coincidence or was it a plan?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no; no coincidence. They were looking for me and I'll tell you where I saw him. I saw him up at Jack Ruby's club.
Mr. HUBERT. That was after Oswald was shot?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. They were looking for you for what reason?
Mr. SENATOR. Sir?
Mr. HUBERT. For what reason were. they looking? Why were they looking for you?
Mr. SENATOR. Just friends, that is all, because I had lived with them, you know, for a while. Nothing particular.
Mr. HUBERT. I suppose, too, they had known that you were in the apartment with Ruby.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, it was national news.
Mr. SENATOR. They had read of the incident or heard of the incident somehow.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that after Ruby killed Oswald that you saw them?
Mr. SENATOR. These two boys?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I think it was in December now. I don't remember if it was a week, two or three. I'm not sure. I just don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you relate it to say Christmastime, Christmas day?
Mr. SENATOR. It could be. I just can't think of when it was. Possibly.
Mr. HUBERT. How long prior to then had you seen Loftus?
Mr. SENATOR. Before?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, say before Oswald was shot. How long had it been since you had seen Loftus?
Mr. SENATOR. Let me put it this way: I can't quote it. I really can't quote it, but I would say that he lived in Hillsboro and he used to come up on weekends and I believe he stayed with his friend in Irving, Frank Irwin.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the friend's name?
Mr. SENATOR. Frank Irwin.
Mr. HUBERT. I-r-w-i-n?
Mr. SENATOR. I-r-w-i-n, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that person lived in Irving, Tex.?
Mr. SENATOR. Irving, yes; he lived in Irving. Now I used to run across him once in a while. He used to come up you know for the weekend.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he know Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he knew him casually.
Mr. HUBERT. What about these others, Frank Irwin and James Young?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know if they knew Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Stanley Corbat know him?

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Mr. SENATOR. Casually, because Stanley and I lived next door to him. But, of course, Start never went to his club unless I took him there.
Mr. HUBERT. Stan got married, of course, and that is why he moved out of the apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is he living now, in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know the number, but I think he is living on Munger Street.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen him since Oswald was shot?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you come in contact with him, socially?
Mr. SENATOR. I just happened to run across him one day. I ran across him once in a delicatessen.
Mr. HUBERT. Just once?
Mr. SENATOR. In the delicatessen. I ran across him once in a delicatessen. Then I ran across him another time. As a matter of fact, I ran across him I think it was twice since the happenings.
Mr. HUBERT. What does he do?
Mr. SENATOR. He is a buyer for a department store. He buys women's budget dresses.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which department store?
Mr. SENATOR. Titche.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located?
Mr. SENATOR. That is I think on Main Street. I think it is on Main Street.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you a few other questions about yourself.
Have you ever been in any difficulties with the law, that is to say, by way of charges?
Mr. SENATOR. No; the only incident I ever had with the law, and I have been asked many times before on this already, that one night--this goes back maybe 3 or 4 years ago--there was another chap and I, we went to a cocktail lounge and we both had two scotches and water. We crossed the street and I think we crossed the street against the light because in Dallas they are very meticulous of crossing against the lights, and we went into the coffee shop to get something to eat. We no sooner got in the coffee shop than two cops nabbed me, us rather. They said we were drunk. Now I wasn't any more drunk than he was.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they charge you?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they took us down to jail, 4 hours to sober up, but I had nothing to sober up with.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they follow up with any charges?
Mr. SENATOR. No; we were fined $15.
Mr. HUBERT. You were fined?
Mr. SENATOR. I believe it was $15.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the only time?
Mr. SENATOR. The only time in my life.
Mr. HUBERT. The only time you have ever been arrested?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. There have been no other charges?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Also I gather from the fact that you got an honorable discharge, that you had no difficulties with military justice?
Mr. SENATOR. Never.
Mr. HUBERT. During the war?
Mr. SENATOR. Never, none whatsoever.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, while you were living in Miami, did you have occasion to get to know or meet or make friends with, either one, any person who would be classified as gamblers, professional gamblers?
Mr. SENATOR. Professional?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to any gambling houses?

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Mr. SENATOR. Me? No; of course I'm certain there must be sneak gambling you know, like anyone else. They call it sneak gambling, you know, you do it under cover. But at that time when I got down there, I think it was either shut down or close to being shut down. I don't remember just what year it was. They just clamped down, you know.
Of course, I remember when I first went there as a kid, everything was open. Slot machines used to be on the streets and all that.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you yourself ever done any gambling?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I'm no gambler. When you put it this way, I will put it this way: You mean have I played poker at home, 5 and 10 or something like that?
Mr. HUBERT. No.
Mr. SENATOR. No; the only time that I ever did any gambling was when I was overseas. I was in the jungles for approximately 3 years. What other recreation did we have? So we gambled.
Mr. HUBERT. I want to explore a bit more the means by which you obtained money to live during the 2 1/2 years that you were apparently unemployed, at least no earnings were reported, that is to say, from July of 1958 until the first of 1962.
Mr. SENATOR. What years?
Mr. HUBERT. According to the records, there were no earnings reported for you by anybody nor did you apparently report any yourself from July roughly of 1958 until January 1 of 1962, or the first part of 1962.
Mr. SENATOR. Approximately about 4 weeks ago the Internal Revenue had me and they called me right after I got off the witness stand at the Jack Ruby trial that they wanted to see me.
Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead.
Mr. SENATOR. They gave me a notice to come up and see them. They allowed me 10 days to come up and see them, which I did.
When I was unemployed, when I lost my job I think it was in 1958, when I was with Rhea, which is a very depressing feeling, I don't know how to explain this, I really don't know how to explain it to you, I didn't file. Why I didn't file I can't even answer, I don't know why I didn't file.
Mr. HUBERT. Before you get to that, maybe we ought to get to this part. You say you lost your job. You are talking about being with Smoler's?
Mr. SENATOR. No; that was with Rhea.
Mr. HUBERT. You were with Smoler's a long time. What caused you to lose your job there?
Mr. SENATOR. With Smoler Brothers?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. As I say, they weren't happy with me and I wasn't happy with them.
First of all, I'll tell you they had cut down the territory and they were unhappy with the type business I was doing. So, this was a volume house, and the type operation was, I don't know if I classify, if I tell you $3.75 a dress, I don't know if it means anything to you or not, but at this price range, at the wholesale price range, you have got to do a volume business to make any money. And through this they weren't happy. And I wasn't happy because they had cut my territory down so, so we parted good friends. I wasn't making any money anyhow over that.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you had times with Smoler's when you had done considerably better?
Mr. SENATOR. There were times that I did better. I don't say that I did a fantastic job with them, but I have done a little better than that.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been able to make any savings to carry you forward?
You see, that is what I want to get at. We find when you left Smoler's, you go to Rhea's----
Mr. SENATOR. Excuse me, before I went to Rhea I had other odd jobs you know that were nothing to speak of.
Mr. HUBERT. Here is what I want to get at.
Here is a period of 2 1/2 years, you had to have some money to live on or people gave you money or something of that sort. Now tell us about that.

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Mr. SENATOR I lived on handouts.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about it.
Mr. SENATOR. I lived on handouts. When I mentioned these boys here and I was living on handouts with them. In other words, I used to cook for them and wash dishes and things of that nature. I was really depressed, extremely depressed and down and out, and they slipped me five, three, two, whatever it was, and I helped them along in the house there and they kept me for a while.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not pay any part of the rent?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And that is true for that whole 2 1/2-year period?
Mr. SENATOR. It wasn't two and a half. I would say it was approximately a year and a half, to my knowledge. I don't think it was 2 1/2 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You went from Smoler Brothers to Rhea directly?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no; I say I had the odd jobs directly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how much time was there between Smoler Brothers and Rhea?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't think there was much time between them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would you say, 3 months?
Mr. SENATOR. It's hard for me to really guess. I'd have to make such a fantastic guess I wouldn't know if I was right or wrong.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was not too long ago. This was back in 1957.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, if I told you 3 months I don't know how close I'd be and if I told you 6 months I don't know how far I'd be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you had odd jobs. Can you be more specific?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, I was with another dress house for a short while, which didn't last too long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Doing the same kind of work?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, doing the same kind of work.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Covering territory?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, they were with a top house. I didn't stay with them long and I wasn't making any money with them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What company was that?
Mr. SENATOR. Junior Age. I don't believe they are in business any more.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say you were with them?
Mr. SENATOR. It may have been 3 months. I don't know, 2 months, 4 months. I'm not sure. It wasn't too long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on a straight commission with them?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. No, a draw against commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A draw against commission?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But if you didn't make your draw, you were in the hole with them and had to pay it back supposedly, somehow?
Mr. SENATOR. I didn't pay it back, but I was in the hole, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But after you left this dress house, who did you work for next?
Mr. SENATOR. I'm trying to think from the time there until Rhea. I know I did some odd things. I was with Rhea.
Mr. HUBERT. Were these odd things always in the same line, or did you get into other lines?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I worked in a little bare place, I think I lasted, I worked there for about 6 weeks once at hardly nothing, just to keep me going.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And that was before you worked for Rhea, or was it?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I think that was after. I think that was after I worked for Rhea.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did the Rhea employment last?
Mr. SENATOR. I may have been with them maybe a year, year and a half, I'm not sure now.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make any money off of that?
Mr. SENATOR. Just a draw part.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you on the handout basis when you were working for Rhea,

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that is to say, handout with your roommates, or did you have enough money then to pay your fair share?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; I paid my fair share as long as I was----
Mr. HUBERT. So when you are talking about the handouts----
Mr. SENATOR. The handouts is when I was completely out.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't have any employment at all?
Mr. SENATOR. No, I was completely out.
Mr. HUBERT. That was for about a year, year and a half?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say about a year and a half at a rough guess.
Mr. HUBERT. When did that begin and when did that end, that year and a half? Let's look at it this way: You were not working at the time you were living with Ruby, were you, that is to say you were not making any money?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You were not contributing?
Mr. SENATOR. No. Ruby gave me handouts.
Mr. HUBERT. That is right?
Mr. SENATOR. Certainly.
Mr. HUBERT. So that is a year and a half back from November of 1963, is it not, roughly?
Mr. SENATOR. No, I was with this Volume Sales like you mentioned before.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I was with them. Now, I was with Volume for maybe about 9 months, I think.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's take the time that you were with Corbat. Was that on a handout basis too, or did you pay your fair share then?
Mr. SENATOR. No; with Corbat I paid him very little. I'll tell you when I paid him very little, though. I paid him very little when I first moved in with him, because I had no money.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you got----
Mr. SENATOR. Then when I moved, when I was able to a little, we went on a 50-50 basis.
Mr. HUBERT. That is when you moved to South Ewing?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Which was in August of 1962?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you making money at that time?
Mr. SENATOR. The cards. My half of the rent was $62.50 a month and his half. In other words, it ran about $15 a week, approximately.
Mr. HUBERT. And you earned enough to pay your half by selling postcards?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I was in the postcards.
Mr. HUBERT That is what business? What company is that?
Mr. SENATOR. Texas Postcard & Novelty Co.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you with them?
Mr. SENATOR, I was sales manager, whatever that means.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you with them?
Mr. SENATOR. August of 1962 until November of 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. What part of November?
Mr. SENATOR. The latter part of November.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you ceased your employment with them after Oswald was shot?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this is when I fell apart with the incident.
Mr. HUBERT. What were you making then?
Mr. SENATOR. $75 a week, but $61.45, that is my actual draw.
Mr. HUBERT. That was your actual draw?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. In cash?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Roughly $250 a month?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said you paid your half of the rent with Corbat?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; $15 a week, $16 a week, or whatever it was.
Mr. HUBERT. And then when you lost that employment--just a minute; you

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had not lost that employment at the time you moved in with Ruby, because you say that that employment----
Mr. SENATOR. No, no, no; you mean prior to----
Mr. HUBERT. To the shooting.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You were still working with them?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were still drawing that pay?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you mean when you said a little while ago that you were on a handout basis with Ruby since you were making $250?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I am referring to the first time.
Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see.
Mr. SENATOR. That was in 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. You were living in another place?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; in 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. But with reference to the last time you lived with Ruby; that is to say, commencing the beginning of November of 1963?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You were----
Mr. SENATOR. I was under pressure those 2 months because the rent--you know, when you switch from $62.50 to $125 you are going broke.
Mr. HUBERT. From the time you left Corbat until you moved with Ruby----
Mr. SENATOR. I struggled for the 2 months, and Jack Ruby said to move in, so I moved in.
Mr. HUBERT. And were you supposed to pay any part?
Mr. SENATOR. With Jack, no.
Mr. HUBERT. The arrangement was that you were not to pay anything?
Mr. SENATOR. I wasn't to pay, but you know I would help him. I would help him Fridays and Saturdays, or once in a while I would pop up during a week night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you something to get it straight about this Rhea Manufacturing Co.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did they do? What did they make?
Mr. SENATOR. They manufacture dresses and sportswear.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I notice your Social security earnings record with Smoler Bros., that there seemed to be times regularly where you did not report any earnings from them, or they did not report any payments to you I should say, to be more accurate. Was there something seasonal about that business with Smoler Bros.?
Mr. SENATOR. The type business?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; every season wasn't good. In other words, let me put it this way: When you get down to the latter part of the year, you know, see, we are more so of a cotton housecoat, not a housecoat but a cotton dress. You have seen these women wear these inexpensive cotton dresses. They look like plaid variations. Well, this wasn't a big factor at that time of the year. In other words, our spring and our summer was the best for us as far as selling goes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the spring and the summer were you selling for the spring. and summer seasons, or were you selling in the spring and summer for the following season?
Mr. SENATOR. Let me explain it this way: I'm certain we are both on the right track, but let me explain it this way. In other words, we will start in May. In May your fall lines come out, see, come out, and you start selling them in May. Some of them sell them in April, even. It all depends who the manufacturer is and how fast they put them out. Then your spring line--let's see, from the fall line your spring line will come out in, I think it's August, August of the year.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's see if we cannot get it this way. You never actually ceased your employment with Smoler's at any time until the final time?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is right
Mr. HUBERT. Now, there are periods from these reports that we have in which Smoler's apparently did not report any earnings for you. What we want to

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know, is: Is it a fact that you did not earn anything during that period or did not even draw during that period, or have you any explanation for the reason that Smoler's apparently did not report any earnings for you during several years in a row for certain quarters, seemingly for the third and fourth quarter of each year, and why would that be?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you always on a draw right along?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there some periods during each year when you did not earn your draw?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; there were many times I didn't earn my draw.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything seasonal about that? Were there certain times of the year when you were working when it regularly happened that you did not earn your draw?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What times of the year did that tend to be when you did not earn your draw?
Mr. SENATOR. I cannot base it on any particular time or periods, but there were many times, especially when you get chopped down a bit on your loans. I have never made what you call any big money with them. I was always, I would imagine, hitting probably around my draw part, or there may have been times when I fell even behind.
Mr. HUBERT. I want to get to the time when you first met Jack Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, I have a couple of questions. I would like to clear up on some much earlier stuff before you get to that.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. First of all, where is Gloversville, N.Y.? What part of New York State is that?
Mr. SENATOR. Are you familiar with Albany?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. You are familiar with Schenectady?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. How about Amsterdam?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if I am not, if you tell us where it is.
Mr. SENATOR. I haven't been there in so many years I may not have the right direction now. All I know is I am trying to figure what the locality is. It is 30 miles from Schenectady. In other words, it is off the beaten path a bit from your main lines.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It is upstate New York?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I would probably say in the locale of the foothills of the Adirondacks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I perhaps did not catch this, but there was a period in 1947 when you went to work in New Hampshire?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you go to New Hampshire?
Mr. SENATOR. I needed a job.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go there?
Mr. SENATOR. The man who was running the Red Rooster--what was the name of it again?
Mr. HUBERT. The Hensroost.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the Hensroost; he was up there for the summer. So he got me a job up there for the summer. That was another time when I was very much in need of a job. The type of work that I did up there, they had a little place where the help used to come in, you know, to eat or drink or buy cigars, separation from the guest part. This is the part I worked, made them hamburgers or whatever it may be of that nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I do not have anything else, Mr. Hubert, if you want to go on.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, as I understand it, it was in May of 1954, almost 10 years ago, that you moved to Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How soon after moving to Dallas did you meet Jack Ruby?

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Mr. SENATOR. I would say it may have been--I would say approximately within a year or approximately about a year; I'm not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not know him prior to moving to Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; I had never heard of Jack Ruby before in my life.
Mr. HUBERT. You think it would be somewhere in 1955 that you first met him?
Mr. SENATOR. I would even say in 1955 or early 1956. I mean give or take a few.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us the circumstances under which you met him.
Mr. SENATOR. How I met him?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I was with a friend of mine one day. We went over to--I am certain you heard of the Vegas Club in Dallas?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR: That is where, you know--at that time this is all Jack Ruby had was the Vegas Club and this is where I met him casually. Never seen him before, and I was introduced to Jack Ruby like I guess anybody else walked in, Jack Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; now, starting from then, would you tell us how your friendship or acquaintance developed?
Mr. SENATOR. I have seen Jack; I have met Jack here or there, you know; it can be in a restaurant or whatever it might be or a luncheonette or something like that. I have met him many times. I have seen him, "Hi, George"; "Hi, Jack, how are you?"
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the Vegas Club frequently after that first meeting?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; very, very seldom, very seldom, and the only time that I really got close to Jack was about 2 years ago. Always previous to that it has always been, "Jack, how are you?" wherever I met him; having coffee, he always offered to buy me something to eat.
Mr. HUBERT. You describe your relationship with Jack up to 2 years ago as casual?
Mr. SENATOR. Strictly casual, like I'd meet any other friend anywhere else.
Mr. HUBERT. It could hardly be called friendship as it ultimately developed, in any case.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I respected him; he respected me. We talked nice.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not go to the Vegas very much?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn't go to the Vegas very much.
Mr. HUBERT. At the time you indicated that there was a change in that casual relationship to something else 2 years ago.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what brought that about?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
(Brief recess.)
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Senator, we have had about a 10-minute recess. You understand, of course, that we are continuing this deposition by the same authority and under the same conditions which I stated to you at the very beginning of it and further that you are under the same oath that you were prior to the recess.
Is that agreeable with you? You understand that?
Mr. SENATOR. I can't lie because I didn't bring a lawyer with me.
Mr. HUBERT. What?
Mr. SENATOR. I said I am not lying because I didn't bring a lawyer with me.
Mr. HUBERT. So that the record may be clear on the point, I want to see if I understand your last remark. Does it indicate that you wish to have a lawyer?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I just wanted to get it straight.
Mr. SENATOR. I say that I didn't come here to lie; so I don't need a lawyer.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, now we are at the point about 2 years ago when a casual relationship which you have described with Ruby changed into something else. Why don't you just tell us about that in your own words?
Mr. SENATOR. All right. I mentioned before Volume Sales. When I got through with Volume Sales I was unemployed again, and I used to jump up to Jack's place, his other place, which is the Carousel previous to that there was

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Sovereign Club, a private club. On rare occasions I used to go up there and we started getting a little more friendly.
Mr. HUBERT. That was about 2 years ago or prior to that?
Mr. SENATOR. No; that was while I was still with Volume Sales. In other words, that was, I would say, approximately about 2 1/2 years ago. I used to go up to the Sovereign Club; you know it is a private club; they don't let you in normally, but he used to let me in to watch the show.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember actually when that opened?
Mr. SENATOR. Which?
Mr. HUBERT. The Sovereign.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when it changed from the Sovereign to the Carousel?
Mr. SENATOR. I wasn't around for the change, but I would say that it was years ago. Now just how much over, I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you concur in the suggestion that it would be approximately Christmas of 1961, which would be about 2 years and 5 or 6 months?
Mr. SENATOR. That it changed to the Carousel?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I couldn't quote that. I couldn't even quote it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can I interrupt you here Mr. Hubert? How did you happen to come to terminate your employment with Volume Sales?
Mr. SENATOR. You have got to know the man. He is a hard guy to work for. He was really a tough guy to work for. You see, No. 1, he is a salesman himself, and he is a pretty shrewd salesman, and he had Volume Sales, which were novelty, sort of novelty and gift item type things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of things?
Mr. SENATOR. Novelties? Well that would be variations. In other words, you probably have seen these little things with different sayings on them. Remember the little miniature loving cups with the different sayings on them? Things of this nature, and other gag items and key chains and little bar sets and little weather sets and things of that nature, and funny matches. Just a variation of those things of that nature. And when I traveled for him and I'd get back to town, he would knock me off $50. In others words, my draw wasn't stable with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you first started to visit the Sovereign Club, as you say Jack would let you in, I take it you didn't have membership in the Sovereign Club?
Mr. SENATOR. No; because I think at the Sovereign Club I probably attended that place maybe three or four times or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Mr. Ruby running the same kind of shows at the Sovereign Club that he later had at the Carousel?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; he was running acts, you know, he had acts, singers or dancers or comedians, something of that nature you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have striptease performance?
Mr. SENATOR. No; the Sovereign; no; there were no strippers when he had the Sovereign Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you familiar with the other nightclubs in town when Mr. Ruby had the Sovereign Club?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I knew some of them; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you visit any of those?
Mr. SENATOR. On rare occasions; yes. I couldn't afford them, number one. I was never a member because I couldn't afford membership. I wasn't making that kind of money. But I'd either go up with a friend who was a member or something of that nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there something about the Sovereign Club that was more attractive to you than some of the other clubs?
Mr. SENATOR. No; not particularly; no. It is just that I knew Jack and Jack like he said a thousand times to many people. First of all the Carousel of course is a $2 admission. But many people would say "Come on up, be my guest," free admission.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any other nightclub operators in town at the time Jack was running the Sovereign Club and letting you in?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, normally on getting into clubs I would probably go in with a friend who was a member. You probably know the Kings Club and the Adolphus don't you or you heard of it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; for example did you know the manager of the Theatre Lounge?
Mr. SENATOR. As of recent?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Back there when you were going to the Sovereign Club and Jack would let you in.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I knew who the owner was but I didn't know the manager, who the manager was at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You know Abe Weinstein?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; I don't know him that well. I know who he is, I know him casually.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you visited his clubs?
Mr. SENATOR. On very rare occasions. Abe's place I have probably been up maybe as long as I have been in Dallas, if I have been up there four times I have been up there a lot, if I have been up there that many times.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; now we had progressed to the point where your casual relationship with Jack Ruby had developed into a little more than that commencing roughly about 2 1/2 years ago when you began to go to the Sovereign Club. I think you went there about four or five times before it changed to the Carousel. But you have previously mentioned that about 2 years ago something happened that changed this improving relationship let's say in the sense that you got to know each other better, so that you could be called friends then. Something happened you said about 2 years ago, and that is what I want you to take it from there.
Mr. SENATOR. When I got through with Volume Sales I was unemployed again. In other words, I was down again. So Jack Ruby is of a nature, he will help somebody. Rather he has to feed them or give them a place to sleep or something of this nature, this is when he took me in when he knew I was broke. He said "George you can stay with me."
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him you were broke or did he find out from another source?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I told him I was down.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask to go in with him?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I'll tell you why. I don't think I did. At that time Jack was changing over and he had some pretty rough times. He had changed over from this Sovereign Club. Now how rough he had it there I don't know because I wasn't intimate with him at that time, that intimate. And he went into this burlesque business.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the Carousel you mean?
Mr. SENATOR. The Carousel and he was bucking somebody who had never been bucked before. That is the Weinstein brothers who owned the Theatre Lounge and the Colony Club and who have had the monopoly of that type nature of business for many, many years. Now, for him to buck them he has really got something to buck.
Mr. HUBERT. So he was having difficulties and you were too?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; originally I was sleeping at the club and so was he.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he didn't have an apartment at all?
Mr. SENATOR. He didn't have an apartment at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did that situation go on?
Mr. SENATOR. It didn't last too long, because as business started to pick up some he was sleeping, he had his own room in the club and he had a fold-out bed that I could sleep on and I slept there for awhile.
Mr. HUBERT. So that originally when Jack took you in, as it were, to assist you, he took you in at the club, and not into any apartment which he then had?
Mr. SENATOR. He didn't have an apartment.
Mr. HUBERT. That is what I say.
Mr. SENATOR. He didn't have an apartment at that time. But he was always good in feeding somebody if they were down and out.

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Mr. HUBERT. You mean he gave you cash?
Mr. SENATOR. Either that or he gave me a little cash for spending money or he would just take me.
Mr. HUBERT. Just do what?
Mr. SENATOR. Take me to eat, you know, when he went to eat. He'd pay for my laundry or have my suit pressed, things of that nature.
Mr. HUBERT. But then he did get an apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. He got an apartment but I don't remember just how long after that.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case when he got an apartment you moved into that apartment with him?
Mr. SENATOR. See I am a little blank on one point there. I just don't remember how the outcome was when he moved out of there into the apartment. I can't remember just how long I stayed up at the club with him. It wasn't too long, though. I don't remember how long. But anyhow he got this apartment on South Ewing.
Mr. HUBERT. On South Ewing?
Mr. SENATOR. No; Marsalis.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you moved in with him right away?
Mr. SENATOR. Then I went in with him. Now I don't remember if I went in with him--I don't remember how I went in with him. I can't place it together but I know I was there.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't have to pay any rent?
Mr. SENATOR. No; but I helped him in the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Now when you helped him in the club, what did you do? What kind of work did you do at the club?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I sort of ran the lights for him for awhile and I'd take cash for him.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean that is on the front door?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; on the front door.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the $2 admission charge?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is right.
Mr. HUBERT. And what other jobs did you do?
Mr. SENATOR. Whatever errands he wanted me to do during the course of the daytime, if he wanted me to pick up something here or pick up something there or buy something that he needed for the club, go shopping and things of that nature, whatever it might be.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't do the clean-up jobs?
Mr. SENATOR. No. He had a clean-up boy.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was he?
Mr. SENATOR. His name was Andrew Armstrong I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he there when you first went there?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He was with Jack quite awhile. He was with Jack, I think he was with Jack before I was there, yes, and he was there until the time the club closed down.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you travel around with Jack during this period when you were unemployed and he was helping you out and you were helping him out by doing errands and so forth? I mean when you got up in the morning did you both go together? Did you move together or how was it?
Mr. SENATOR. It all depends. First of all he slept pretty good. He slept pretty late. He liked to sleep. And he used to get up in the afternoon and mess around, sit around the apartment. If the weather was right, I mean if it happened to be summertime, he is a great fan for swimming. Or he'd just mope around the place or hang around the apartment house.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is whether your helping him out at the club was a regular thing or just done once in a while.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I was doing it regularly. As long as he was keeping me up, I had to do something, see.
Mr. HUBERT. That is what I had in mind.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the club at the same time that he did?
Mr. SENATOR. No.

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Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave at the same time that he did?
Mr. SENATOR. I would leave when he left.
Mr. HUBERT. Because you were both going back to the same house?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What about going there? You went earlier?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; I left earlier. In other words he could sit in the apartment longer than I could.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you normally go to work then?
Mr. SENATOR. He would always make me go in in early, somewheres around between 7 and 8. He wanted me to see that things were set up.
Mr. HUBERT. You never had to go in midafternoon though?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; unless if we did go in midafternoon, which was rare, probably maybe to feed the dogs or something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Who took care of the reservations and all other matters of that sort?
Mr. SENATOR. Andrew.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did Andrew get there?
Mr. SENATOR. Andrew was there; Andrew would come there somewhere around 1 o'clock in the afternoon. See Andrew lived there for a short while too after we had left. He was staying there. And then I think he got married or something like that. But Andrew was with him about 2 years I guess, maybe a little longer.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already covered the next stage, and that was when you got a job and also you were disgusted with the conditions and so you moved in with Corbat?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now during the period that you lived with Corbat, which would have been, as I remember it, from August of 1962 until August of 1963--is that right?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your relationship with Jack then?
Mr. SENATOR. August of 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. That is when you moved out of Jack's apartment and took up with Corbat.
Mr. SENATOR. I always went to see him. I always used to come up there. At rare times I would help him at the door.
Mr. HUBERT. But you had a job then?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. But I would go up there and I would help him at the door, things of that kind.
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, he for a good part of that period he actually lived in the South Ewing Apartments where you lived with Corbat, is that right?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. We moved there practically the same time; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So that in spite of the fact that you broke up the domestic establishment that you had, there was no ill feeling between you.
Mr. SENATOR. Never, no, no. We have never had any ill feeling. We got along excepting when he hollered at me.
Mr. HUBERT. Well we will get to that. In this new job which you had when you were living with Corbat did you have to use an automobile?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; a wagon.
Mr. HUBERT. A station wagon?
Mr. SENATOR. Volkswagen, one of those box things, what do you call them?
Mr. GRIFFIN. One of those Volkswagen microbuses?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it a passenger car?
Mr. SENATOR. No; it is one of these solid enclosures. It looks like a box, you know. I don't know what you call them.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it to hold goods you were displaying?
Mr. SENATOR. That is right; but there was no windows to it except in the back, the back part.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it your car or did it belong to the company?
Mr. SENATOR. It was the company.

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Mr. HUBERT. And you say you continued to go to the Carousel from time to time. How often about, just roughly?
Mr. SENATOR. Two or three times a week. It all depends.
Mr. HUBERT. And you would help there?
Mr. SENATOR. Not always. Sometimes I would, sometimes I wouldn't.
Mr. HUBERT. If you helped did he pay you?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I did it because I still remember what he has done for me when I was down and out, and it wasn't that many hours or it wasn't difficult labor or anything of that nature. But I still remembered the things he did for me, when I was down and out.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, then I think we have covered the time when Corbat left and you lost your job and found that you were down and out and again you moved into his apartment then, giving up the apartment next door.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he invite you in then or did you ask him?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he invited me. He knew I was pressed.
Mr. HUBERT. And you had to give up the automobile at that time?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I had the automobile until January.
Mr. HUBERT. The fact is I think you told us that you were working with these people until after Oswald was shot?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But at the stress of the----
Mr. SENATOR. But the stresses.
Mr. HUBERT. The stress of having to carry the whole apartment when Corbat left was one of the factors that put pressure upon you, is that right?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it is the pressure of the extra amount of money.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not own an automobile of your own I take it?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, when I was traveling the road; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When was the last time you owned an automobile?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know, it must have been about 4 or 5 years ago.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind was it?
Mr. SENATOR. I think the last one I had was, I think it was a Buick.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you sell it?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don't remember if I sold it or traded it in.
Mr. HUBERT. You traded it in for what?
Mr. SENATOR. I had a Buick once. I mean I had a few Buicks. When I say a few I mean there might have been about 3, and I had a Ford once I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case you haven't owned a car of your own for about 4 or 5 years?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And the last car you owned you must have sold it I suppose. You couldn't have traded it in because then you would have gotten a new car.
Mr. SENATOR. I am trying to think what was I doing with the last car. I think the last car, I think I lost it on payments. I couldn't keep up the payments if I am not mistaken, if that is the one. I think that is it. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt a second to clarify one thing in my mind. You mentioned this Volkswagen. The last time you had it was in January?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now what year?
Mr. SENATOR. 1964.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Just a couple of months ago?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Coming to the first part of November 1963, was that when you moved in with Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I believe it was somewhere around the 1st or 2d of November, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Then I suppose you went back to the routine of the general mode of living and working with him that had existed before?
Mr. SENATOR. No; then I was helping him, I mean I was staying with him,

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so I was helping him on weekends. Once in a while I would pop in maybe on a weekday.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your operation----
Mr. SENATOR. Just at the door.
Mr. HUBERT. Your operation insofar as the Carousel is concerned was not like it was before?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Not on a daily basis?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Just at night, not every night?
Mr. SENATOR. Normally I would come in on Friday and Saturday.
Mr. HUBERT. But you were still at your job?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; after all I was saying there and felt he was entitled to something, you know, so I'd come in there and help him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you assist in the cooking or anything of that sort?
Mr. SENATOR. There was no food. The only food there was, they make pizzas once in a while.
Mr. HUBERT. I don't mean at the Carousel, I mean at the house, the apartment.
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; but I couldn't cook right for him. He is a funny guy in cooking.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you do any cooking there at all?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. If I don't broil right for him, if I make him eggs, it has got to be so much of this in the butter because he, was watching his diet, and I got so tired of it I says, "Make your own eggs." You just couldn't make anything right for him. And all meats had to be broiled. He don't believe in fried stuff. And he was just hard to cook for.
Mr. HUBERT. The routine then I suppose is that you were working and you would come back to the apartment after normal working hours, which would be around when, 5 or 6 in the evening?
Mr. SENATOR. To cook for him? That would be rare. I got away from that.
Mr. HUBERT. I am getting to the normal routine as to your relationship. You had a regular working day I take it?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Which started off at 8 or so in the morning?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And ended up at 5 or 6 in the evening? He, on the other hand, would be sleeping in the morning?
Mr. SENATOR, Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And I understand would leave the apartment after you got back at night or before, as a normal thing?
Mr. SENATOR. It wasn't always necessarily that I came home between 5 and 6 because many times I stayed out.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any kind of a pattern at all to your living in point of time?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; there is no particular pattern.
Mr. HUBERT. What about weekends? Was that different?
Mr. SENATOR. No; not particularly. First of all I always get up before he does, whether I am working or otherwise.
Mr. HUBERT. You would help him at the club?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. On weekends and if you did I suppose you came back about the same time he did?
Mr. SENATOR. At night? Yes. But as far as I getting up in the morning, I always got up much earlier than he did. It was just natural. It was natural for me to get up, and it doesn't make any difference what particular time I went to bed at 2, 3, 4 or 5, I am of that nature that I get up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your regular rising time?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say 7, 7:30, sometimes 6 in the morning. A lot of times it would probably depend what time I go to bed. If I go to bed at 10 o'clock at night I probably wake up at 5 or 5:30 in the morning.
Mr. HUBERT. What about on weekends?

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Mr. SENATOR. On weekends? Say like a Sunday, I would probably wake up at 7:30 or 8 o'clock in the morning on Sunday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Has it been your habit when you get up in the morning you make yourself a breakfast or what do you do?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I will tell you, when I wake up in the morning I want coffee, but I don't have that appetite in the morning when I get up. It is very rare that I will eat the moment I wake up in the morning. But I get hungry maybe an hour or two later or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So on a working day would you go to work, grab a cup of coffee and go to work?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no; on working days I go downtown and have my coffee. I don't even make it there. Never. I don't sit there and make coffee in the morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any particular place that you eat at regularly?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where?
Mr. SENATOR. I had a hangout. The Eat Well. There is three places that I normally went to. Eat Well, I always went there every morning, even on Sunday, and then the Chefette. Down where the Chefette is in the Hotel Adolphus and then the Walgren also in the Hotel Adolphus. Those are the three places I normally was always in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any regular place where you ate lunch?
Mr. SENATOR. No; there is no particular--I mean I don't pick my spot where I eat lunch.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would you do about dinners?
Mr. SENATOR. Dinners I normally would like to go home, for meal, but I ate more when I was living with Stan or by myself than I did with Jack, because I just can't cook of his nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack in the habit of coming home for dinner?
Mr. SENATOR. A lot of times, yes; and then I would probably say maybe; on rare occasions, no. It wasn't necessarily that he had to be home for dinner because there were many times he also ate out. But he was hard on food, even at a restaurant he was not easy. It had to be so-so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did the shopping?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack did the shopping. I couldn't do no shopping. I can't shop for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So Jack in effect would buy the meat for the meals and he would plan the meals? Is that the idea? Then you would cook them?
Mr. SENATOR. He would buy what would suit himself, and if I didn't like it that is too bad.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a regular routine of going to a grocery store once a week and going shopping for a week or how did it work?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say something like that. Of course, it all depends, you know, how much he is buying, how much he is going to buy. But he always had a lot of meat. He always kept his refrigerator pretty well filled. He'd buy grapefruits, half a grapefruit and grapefruit juice like crazy. Holy God, you know he'd wake up in the morning, the number one thing was that grapefruit. If he bought grapefruit which he'd normally buy 6, 8, 10 of them at a clip, he would cut up about 2 of them, 2 at once mind you, and put them through the wringer and wring them down, you know, the machine he had home and drink solid grapefruit juice, but from 2 of them, 2 whole grapefruits, unless he had the frozen grapefruits which he diluted with water. This is number one before he did anything, the grapefruit bit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this pattern prevail both when you were living with him the first time and when you were living with him the second time?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or was there some difference in your relationship?
Mr. SENATOR. No; there was no difference. His way of living was set before I ever heard of Jack Ruby, his way of eating.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He would do all the shopping? Who would decide on any particular evening what the meal was going to be?
Mr. SENATOR. I had no say. I had no say.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he call you in advance to let you know when he was coming back for dinner?
Mr. SENATOR. No; no call; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would you do? Did you have a time when you liked to eat, if Jack wasn't there that you would?
Mr. SENATOR. If he wasn't there then I'd help myself or even if I made a couple of eggs or whatever it might be. Sure, I mean there was no particular time that I had to sit down and eat with him, because if I wasn't there he ain't waiting for me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you felt like eating dinner, would you go into the icebox and pull out a steak and make some potatoes and do what you wanted to do?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; sure, sure. If he wasn't there, look, I am not going to sit there and wait for him, you know. And he certainly isn't sitting there waiting for me, because I probably don't know what time he is going to be home and he probably doesn't know what time I am going to be home or sometimes we may be there together. But there was no set pattern. There was no particular time.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather from all this, from the fact that your acquaintanceship with Ruby ripened into friendship, and ripened further in the fact that you were sharing an apartment together, that you got to know the man pretty well as a man, and knew his habits?
Mr. SENATOR. I knew something about them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. His likes and dislikes. You expressed an opinion about that already and that is what I would like to get to now with reference to particular areas. You have mentioned the question of dogs, and I would like you to tell us about what you know of him with reference to dogs and his attitude towards them and so forth.
Mr. SENATOR. He had enough of them.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather from that you mean he had plenty of them?
Mr. SENATOR. He had a few dogs.
Mr. HUBERT. All the time that you have known him was that so or when did that begin?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I don't know when it began because he had dogs the first time that I got close to him or acquainted with him.
Mr. HUBERT. That is about 2 1/2 years ago?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don't know anything about the dogs?
Mr. SENATOR. Previous to that I didn't know anything about dogs before.
Mr. HUBERT. I guess the number of dogs varied, didn't it?
Mr. SENATOR. It happened to be why he had so many dogs, his dog Sheba, who was attacked by one of Sheba's sons at a later date, gave birth to six at one time. What are you going to do? He had dogs.
Mr. HUBERT. So he kept them.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He didn't want to give them away.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did he keep them?
Mr. SENATOR They were born in the apartment. He had them in the kitchen until they were old enough, you know, whatever age that they might be, a month or two, and then he brought them down to the club and he puts them way in the back room of the club. He used to bring everybody in "See my dogs." Of course, his pet was Sheba, which everybody in this country knows.
Mr. HUBERT. She was the mother?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that was the mother of the whole crew. So he wound up with----
Mr. HUBERT. Did Sheba stay at the club or at his house?
Mr. SENATOR. Both. Jack goes to the club, Sheba goes with him.
Mr. HUBERT. Sheba was always with him?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this was the only one. I would say on rare occasions he would probably bring the other dog home or two, just overnight.
Mr. HUBERT. He gave some of the dogs away didn't he?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; Jack had close to 10 dogs. He had about 9 or 10 dogs. Don't forget Sheba had six at one clip.

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Mr. HUBERT. What was his attitude towards these animals? Was it a normal attitude that people have to dogs?
Mr. SENATOR. I know people have mentioned it to me before in the past and the quotations that I have heard though I have never heard them from him though I have heard them otherwise like "My family" or "My wife." I have read these. I am certain everybody else has too or heard it. But he liked dogs. To me this has no meaning. To me it has no meaning when he says this.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear these comments made by other people concerning Ruby and his dogs prior to the shooting or afterwards?
Mr. SENATOR. What?
Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the shooting or afterwards?
Mr. SENATOR. Prior I don't recollect. I don't say--it had to be prior to. No; it had to be prior.
Mr. HUBERT. You have read perhaps a lot about the dogs----
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Since the shooting?
Mr. SENATOR. I heard somebody mention once that he went up to see his Rabbi Silverman who I am certain you probably heard of I guess, and I don't know if he had two or three dogs with him or what it was. I'm not sure of the words he used but I think he said to the Rabbi "I want you to meet my family" or something like that. There was a quotation he used. Now this may have been it, I'm not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there other people that you remember who commented to you about Ruby and his dogs? You have mentioned one. That is that he was----
Mr. SENATOR. I heard two things already. One was "my family" and one was "my wife," which absolutely has----
Mr. HUBERT. Both of those you heard prior to the time Jack went to jail?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; these were prior to it, but when I heard it it was after, see.
Mr. HUBERT. I see. You mean that the remarks were made prior?
Mr. SENATOR. The remarks were made after, that is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Wait a while, let me get that straight, the remarks were made after?
Mr. SENATOR. After.
Mr. HUBERT. But the occurrences were supposed to have, the facts were supposed to have occurred prior?
Mr. SENATOR. Prior. Right. Prior I never heard.
Mr. HUBERT. You do not remember having heard anything prior to the shooting?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your own opinion as to his attitude toward these animals?
Mr. SENATOR. Like any other human being who had a dog for a number of years.
Mr. HUBERT. There was nothing abnormal about it?
Mr. SENATOR. Nothing. To me, there was nothing absolutely abnormal about it. Just like anybody else having a dog, and I am certain anybody who has a dog he has had about 5, 6 or 7 or 8 years who is very much attached to him. I would probably say the overall picture of the majority owners are attached to a particular dog of whatever the dog may be.
Mr. HUBERT. There is some rumor if you want to call it that that at some time or another Jack had a strange sort of relationship with one of the dogs. Have you any comment to make on that?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don't listen to that stuff because it is not true.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you never saw anything of that sort yourself?
Mr. SENATOR. Never, never, and I tell you this from my heart.
Mr. HUBERT. From your knowledge of Ruby and his relationship with the dog, do you think that that is likely or unlikely?
Mr. SENATOR. What?
Mr. HUBERT. From your knowledge of Ruby and of his relationship with those animals do you think that such a story is likely or unlikely?

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Mr. SENATOR. That he would have?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No; that is so far-fetched I don't believe in that stuff.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you be a little bit more explicit about why you feel that way?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I feel that I have been around him enough to see him pet the dog, and I pet the dog many times. I picked up the dog many times like anybody else has picked up a dog and just scratched him on the head but have never seen an incident like this, at no time.
Mr. HUBERT. What about his interest in physical culture and keeping himself in good shape? There have been some reports about that but you are in a position perhaps to give us further details about it.
Mr. SENATOR. Well, he loves to swim, and when he gets into a pool he can really go from one end to the other and go, because I heard it mentioned one time he said "George you know I used to be able to swim 2 or 3 miles" which would probably say is a pretty good distance. I know I can't do anything like that, or nowheres near it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he do any ice skating?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, we were ice skating once.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he good at it?
Mr. SENATOR. He was good because I'll tell you why he was good, because he had never been on ice skates before.
Mr. HUBERT. You just know of one occasion he had been on ice skates?
Mr. SENATOR. Sir?
Mr. HUBERT. You just know of one occasion that he was on ice skates?
Mr. SENATOR. I was with him and a group of people one time. They asked me to go, too, and did I suffer.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the first time he had been, too, to your knowledge?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know if that was the first time we had been. I mean I was only there one time. That was over at the fair ground in Dallas, but he had been I think twice. And the people who he was with, you know, we had some of the show folks there of the help, the people who worked there, thought he did very well for a man who had never been on ice skates, including his age.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he take any regular exercise so far as you knew?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; his dumbbells. He didn't do them every day but he did them quite often. Not the dumbbells; what do you call the things, weight-lifters.
Mr. HUBERT. Weightlifting equipment?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He had them in the house?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he exercised and very frequently he used to go to the YMCA which he went for quite a long while. He has gone to the Y before I ever knew him or even became acquainted with him.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his general physical condition?
Mr. SENATOR. Excellent.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he a powerful man?
Mr. SENATOR. A powerful man?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I'll tell you, I won't want to get rapped by him.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever heard of any of his episodes in which he tangled with people?
Mr. SENATOR. I have never had the pleasure--I can't say pleasure. I have never really witnessed a battle with him. Now I have seen him poke a couple of people.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean between him and other people.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I have seen him poke a couple people.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us, about those, would you?
Mr. SENATOR. Take for instance in the club. All right, here is a man who is of a temperament you know, he is a temperament man. He has a temper. And I would probably say that he flies off, if you want to compare us, I am an angel when it comes to flying off compared to him, because he can go this

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fast, you know. I mean he can fly off pretty well. If somebody was hollering or out-of-line or pinch a girl which happens now and then while the girls are dancing he doesn't like this.
Mr. HUBERT. You said you remember two specific instances. Could you just tell us about those.
Mr. SENATOR. I'll tell you one.
Mr. HUBERT. About where they happened and the time.
Mr. SENATOR. I saw one happen, this was outside of the club, this one. Do you want it in the club or out of the club?
Mr. HUBERT. Any one.
Mr. SENATOR. This was outside of the club.
Mr. HUBERT. When was it?
Mr. SENATOR. Last year.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time last year?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say it was sometime last summer.
Mr. HUBERT. The summer of 1963?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened.
Mr. SENATOR. I was sitting in the Burgundy Room. You know where the Burgundy Room is?
Mr. HUBERT. The Adolphus Hotel.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I was in there having a drink and I was sitting with this fellow here.
Mr. HUBERT. Who, what fellow?
Mr. SENATOR. His name?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Don Taber or Tabin.
Mr. HUBERT. T-a-b-e-r or T-a-b-i-n?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You were with that man?
Mr. SENATOR. I was with him for a while but he shifted. He saw some girl and went over to talk to her.
Mr. HUBERT. So you were alone at the table?
Mr. SENATOR. I was sitting there. I was sitting at another table and I assumed he come in looking for me to see what I was doing.
Mr. HUBERT. Who came in?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack Ruby. Jack don't like to have me drink. He doesn't like to see me getting drunk. He thinks I'm always drunk all the while which I am not. And as he walked in through the door, this Don Taber was getting pretty well loaded. He had a few drinks in him, you know, and he has always had a grudge against Jack for some reason or other, I don't know what it was, and Jack was always telling him "Don, I want you to stay away from me" and I have heard him warn him once before by the club, downstairs from the club. Well, he used a pretty obscene word with him. I don't know if you want to take this down or not?
Mr. HUBERT. On the occasion in the Burgundy Room?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; you tell us what happened exactly.
Mr. SENATOR. I think he told him to go "F" yourself.
Mr. HUBERT. Go what?
Mr. SENATOR. Do you want me to use the word?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. He told him to go----himself.
Mr. HUBERT. Who told who?
Mr. SENATOR. Don to Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. Told that to Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he is a type, he is a great guy when he is sober but when he isn't he is not easy to get along with you know.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean when Jack came in?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Taber or Tabin told him that?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

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Mr. HUBERT. And there had been no previous conversation between them?
Mr. SENATOR. No; because he has always picked on Jack for some reason or other.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me get the picture. Jack walks into the room and this man Taber says "Go---------yourself?"
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. To Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened?
Mr. SENATOR. I forgot what Jack says. Jack says something to him. Then I think there was an answer back or something, I just don't remember but all I know is Jack let him have it, hauled off.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he hit him?
Mr. SENATOR. He hit him.
Mr. HUBERT. With his fist or what?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any knucks?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or pistol?
Mr. SENATOR. It was his fist, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened?
Mr. SENATOR. So they got into a little battle.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack knock him down with that first blow?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. So they actually squared off?
Mr. SENATOR. They squared off. It didn't last long though.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened?
Mr. SENATOR. They stopped it but the other fellow got the worst of it.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he knocked off his feet?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he a big man, this Taber?
Mr. SENATOR. He was a little taller than I. I believe he was a little taller than I. But I would probably say he is a chap about maybe around I would say between 165 and 170 or 175. I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. And how tall?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say he is probably, and I am only guessing, I would say maybe 5 feet 9 inches or 5 feet 10 inches.
Mr. HUBERT. How big a man is Jack by the way in point of height and weight?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack I think, is about 5 feet 9 inches.
Mr. HUBERT. And weighed what?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack weighed around 185, somewheres around that, 185.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you consider most of that was bone or muscle or did he have much fat?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, he is 52. I don't care how you drill yourself, I am certain there is a certain amount of flab that hangs around the side which I didn't dare comment on. If I told him that he didn't like it. But still there is a certain amount of flab, but he had a powerful back. I mean to look at the man's back at his age, he had a tremendous back.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he fast with his fists?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say for his age he was.
Mr. HUBERT. When you saw this battle with Taber?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he was pretty fast.
Mr. HUBERT. And he definitely got the best of him?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the other occasion?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, there was one occasion where he hit somebody I catch it with my eye but I happened to be there. I was there and he hit a guy bigger than him. I don't remember what it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us where that was, in the club?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, it was in the club. It was in the hallway near the stairs. But it happened to be I didn't see it because I happened to be around the side and all I caught is the tail end.

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Mr. HUBERT. Do you know when?
Mr. SENATOR. That was in 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he knock the man off his feet?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know. But I know he got the first lick in.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that? He told you?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I heard he always gets the first lick in. He ain't going to get hit first if he can help it, if it comes to an argument.
Mr. HUBERT. Is this the opinion that is generally held?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know if that is the opinion that is generally held or not.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is how you got it. Is that your opinion then that he always gets the first lick in?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say so because he is pretty fast for his age.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the provocation for his hitting the fellow at the club?
Mr. SENATOR. I think this chap here was getting a little loud. I don't remember what the incident was. I think he was making a scene there of some nature.
Mr. HUBERT. Those are the only two occasions that you yourself knew about from having observed them yourself?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I have seen him push somebody out without hitting him.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen that often?
Mr. SENATOR. No, I don't say often. I have seen it happen. And when it has happened, he happened to hold down certain people.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear him threaten anybody?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Like throwing them down the stairs?
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard somebody talk about that. Who did I hear? Oh yes, I'll tell you where that was quoted. When I was on the witness stand and Mr. Alexander asked me that.
The question he asked me, if I can quote him, was that he picked on nothing but small men who were drunk and women who were drunk and beat them up.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your answer?
Mr. SENATOR. If I recall right, he sort of hollered at me a bit if I remember right.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did?
Mr. SENATOR. Mr. Alexander.
Mr. HUBERT. But in any case what is the truth?
Mr. SENATOR. What did I answer him?
Mr. HUBERT. What you answered I suppose is the truth. What is the truth as to that question.
Mr. SENATOR. I'll tell you how I answered him.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, all right; tell us that first.
Mr. SENATOR. I answered him, I said to Jack Ruby, height has nothing to do with it, or something to that effect if I remember right. It doesn't make any difference if the man is bigger than Jack Ruby because that isn't going to stop him. Jack Ruby isn't afraid of height or size, something like that I answered him.
Mr. HUBERT. That is your opinion now, too?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you base that opinion on what?
Mr. SENATOR. In other words, I base this opinion to say, when I was asked this question on the witness stand, that all he would do would beat up people who were smaller than he and who were drunk.
Mr. HUBERT. And you think that is not so?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I say that he doesn't go according to size. I mean I know that he doesn't fear anybody who is taller than he is.
Mr. HUBERT. Now how do you know that? How do you form that opinion right now?
Mr. SENATOR. How do I form that opinion?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Because I think Jack is of that temperament where size don't mean anything to him.
Mr. HUBERT. You just base that upon your general knowledge of the man?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don't think he is of the nature who would back off.

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Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him act in what might be considered brutal in the sense that he went further than he had to go with reference to anything?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I have never witnessed any.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know or have you ever heard of an occasion where he had a fight with a man who bit part of his finger off?
Mr. SENATOR. I haven't seen it. I mean I see the finger. I have heard that, yes. How it happened I don't know. There was some sort of a fight and the guy bit it. Now what happened I don't know but I've heard that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack ever talk to you about it?
Mr. SENATOR. No; as a matter of fact I have noticed his finger, you know, I have seen his finger but I never asked him why, because it happens to be we both got the same type finger. Mine is a paper cut. His cut much more off than mine.
Mr. HUBERT. He never told you how he lost that part of the finger?
Mr. SENATOR. He told me that he lost it, somebody bit his finger in a fight. Now I don't know if it was the Silver Spur or wherever it happened. I just don't remember where or how it happened.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear about him beating up a taxicab man who came in to fetch a fare, or to collect a fare?
Mr. SENATOR. I have never seen it.
Mr. HUBERT. You have heard about it?
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard about it. I never heard no names or anything of that. I heard about it but I have never seen it.
Mr. HUBERT. Now you have expressed to us your opinion that Jack is a man who was not fearful of anyone irrespective of size. Would you give us your opinion as to whether or not he was the type of man, from all you know of him, who would be brutal in a fight? By brutal I mean when he got his man down he would kick him and be sure he was down, kick him in the groin, in the head or something of that sort?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know. I couldn't answer that. I have never witnessed anything of this nature.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you an opinion?
Mr. SENATOR. You would ask me guess then and if I guessed I wouldn't know what I was guessing at.
Mr. HUBERT. I would ask you to guess on the same basis that you expressed an opinion that he was afraid of nobody.
Mr. SENATOR. He certainly wasn't afraid of size. In other words, if the man happened to be 6 inches taller than him he wouldn't back off.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was formed I think you told us from your general knowledge.
Mr. SENATOR. That is right. He wouldn't back off.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your opinion from your general knowledge?
Mr. SENATOR. Now when you ask me about kicking and all that, I mean I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. You know the man and that is all I'm asking. Is he the type of man who would do that in your opinion?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't think so. First of all I don't think so. Personally, I don't think so, but after all I can't answer for what another individual would think in his mind. I don't know, see.
Mr. HUBERT. We understand this is merely your opinion, you see.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don't personally think so. I don't think he would be that brutal.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw him in this fight with Taber or Tabin?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, but there was no kicking.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you about this. I take it this was not a prolonged thing. Jack hit him once and that was it?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no; there were probably six or eight blows swapped. But I would say Jack got most of the blows in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And this guy swung. What caused Jack to stop? Did somebody pull him off?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they stopped it. They stopped it and pulled off.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This episode at the Carousel that you saw, you say you didn't

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actually see any blows thrown at the Carousel. You came in at the tail end of it.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I would say, see, there is an archway; in other words, it is going up a flight of steps.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. And at the flight of steps the doors open and then there is a walk in, you know, an archway. It is almost like in a closed archway which is maybe about 20 or 25 steps. Well, around the L shape of it I didn't see.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell from where you were how many blows were thrown?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did this last?
Mr. SENATOR. It didn't last long because there must have been one or two blows and that was it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody come in and break that up?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know what happened. I just don't remember what happened there. I think he knocked him down. I'm not sure. I think he knocked him down with that blow.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack accomplish his purpose?
Mr. SENATOR. There was a few people gathered around and the next thing I think they took him down or something like that. I don't know. I just don't recall what happened on that particular incident but I do know that something did happen at the time where this fellow I think he was drunk. I really don't know if he was. I think he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever talked with Jack about what his attitude is about using his fists?
Mr. SENATOR. No; this, which I don't know too much about his youth, it probably comes from the bringing up of his youth, the poverty that the family went through. His father was a habitual drunkard, of which I have heard, and the separations of the family and they lived in a cold water flat and the only way I'm familiar of something of this nature is what I have seen in motion pictures of past years of this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want you to tell me now if you think I am wrong. I am going to suggest this to you and I want to know if this is a fair evaluation.
Would you say from what you know of Jack that the background that he came from was such that he had the value that one of the ways you solved problems is in certain kinds of situations you haul off and smack the guy, and that this is a tool that people use? Now there are some people who in their daily life wouldn't hit anybody because they don't think that is a proper thing. Would you say that Jack looked at this as a tool that was perfectly acceptable to use?
Mr. SENATOR. To tell you the truth if I answered it I don't even know if I would be answering it correctly. I would probably say maybe in certain aspects yes and maybe others no. I really couldn't answer correctly. I couldn't give you a truthful answer on it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why is that that you couldn't give an answer?
Mr. SENATOR. Because I couldn't, because I can't think for what the man thinks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't know that much about him?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To be able to say that?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know. I would probably say maybe in certain instances it may happen. Maybe in others it wouldn't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask it this way. Knowing Jack Ruby, would you say that there are situations where Jack would haul off and hit a guy, not because he was emotionally concerned but because he felt this was the way to solve the problem at that particular point.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don't think so. I don't think so. I would probably say that he would have to be beefed up pretty good about something before he hit somebody. I would probably say that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the case with the man at the Carousel?

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Mr. SENATOR. Apparently the man, which I never saw, apparently he must have done something wrong. I don't know what it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But this wasn't something where he built up a head of steam on this guy.
Mr. SENATOR. Maybe this is something that just went off instantaneously. Maybe the guy said something to him which I didn't know. Maybe he called him a curse word, you know. I don't know what it could have been.
Mr. HUBERT. You have indicated along here in your testimony, particularly in answer to a question of a little while ago, that he had a fast temper. I think you said he was a man of temper. I think that was your phrase?
Mr. SENATOR. Agree.
Mr. HUBERT. And you snapped your fingers and said he would just go like that.
Mr. SENATOR. He could have a pretty fast temper.
Mr. HUBERT. Now that must be based, that is to say your impression must be based upon episodes when you witnessed him losing---
Mr. SENATOR. I witnessed him on me, but not hitting me.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about----
Mr. SENATOR. Hollered at me, you know.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about some of the episodes that you saw concerning yourself or others which indicated to you that he had a fast temper?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, if there should have been discussion about something, whatever it might be, with me he would make wrong and holler at me and flare up at me.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by "make wrong"?
Mr. SENATOR. I could never be right with the man, see what I mean? I couldn't be right. In other words, if I said black was black he would say no it is white and that is it.
Mr. HUBERT. And he would do that in a gruff fashion do you think?
Mr. SENATOR. With me? Oh my, you have no idea how many times he has hollered at me but he'd never lay a hand on me. And the funny thing is that is how fast he got over it, and he'd forget about it.
Mr. HUBERT. You snapped your fingers again? You mean that he would---
Mr. SENATOR. In other words, when I snapped my fingers I meant he would get over it that fast from me.
Mr. HUBERT. So, from your own experience there have been innumerable occasions where he would react toward you in such a way that you would describe it as anger, manifested ---
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Wait a while.
Mr. SENATOR. You would think he was going to hit me but I knew he wouldn't.
Mr. HUBERT. This anger being manifested by a loud tone and certain gestures which would indicate he was going to hit you, but didn't, and that you have seen many times, and you also tell us that---
Mr. SENATOR. I have seen it on myself at certain times. Many times with others, but whatever the thing might be, I mean I don't know. Like I told you before, if somebody come up there and pinched a stripper or something like that, which has happened, man, this would throw him off. He didn't like that.
Mr. HUBERT. But you say he would calm down right away?
Mr. SENATOR. He would calm down right away. And he would warn them "Again, out" and he would put them out. There wouldn't be any hesitation. He protected his girls up there, this I'll tell you, at all times.
Mr. HUBERT. I want to explore another aspect of this that you have mentioned, and that is that as quickly as he flared up he seemed to flare down, if you want me to put it that way, calm down. Can you give us examples of that?
Mr. SENATOR. I can give you examples of myself on that.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean that following one of these flareups that you have described?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he would holler at me.
Mr. HUBERT. Then it would be all over.
Mr. SENATOR. He would holler at me and raise the roof at me and then he would tone down.

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Mr. HUBERT. How long would it take?
Mr. SENATOR. A matter of a minute or two.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he wouldn't brood over it. Having gotten mad at you he wouldn't be a brooder. He would change to another subject and be quite his normal self again?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. See I couldn't make this man wrong. I can't make him wrong, you know. I'm the wrong one. I refer to myself, mind you. Whatever it might be I can't be right.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the way he treated you?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To stay in this same general area here, did you know Jack owned a pair of knuckles?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when he bought them?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I would probably say that he probably had them before I was ever close to him. I am only guessing. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you learn that he had them?
Mr. SENATOR. I saw them in a cloth sack once. He carried them in a cloth sack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he keep that sack?
Mr. SENATOR. No particular place. The one time I saw it, it was home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he keep anything else in the sack?
Mr. SENATOR. Of course, he had a gun which everybody knows. You see, Jack's bank account was his pockets, not the bank but his pockets. That is where his bank was. And he always carried various sums of money which could be $1,500, $2,000, $3,000, $4,000, whatever it might be, in all different pockets.
Mr. HUBERT. Now before we explore that area further, I want to get a few generalities concerning Jack. What were his drinking habits? You shake your head. What does that mean?
Mr. SENATOR. He is not a drinker.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn't drink at all?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn't drink at all, or very little?
Mr. SENATOR. I wouldn't say at all but I would probably say if he took a half dozen drinks a year he took a lot.
Mr. HUBERT. How about smoking?
Mr. SENATOR. No smoking whatsoever.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his attitude toward women?
Mr. SENATOR. Like any other man.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say any other normal man?
Mr. SENATOR. Any other normal man.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever observed any traits which suggested to you the possibility of homosexuality?
Mr. SENATOR. Never.
Mr. HUBERT. On his part?
Mr. SENATOR. Never.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any peculiar mannerisms which might have suggested such a thing to other people, even though it was not so?
Mr. SENATOR. I never noticed it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he lisp?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. So do I.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack has a lisp?
Mr. SENATOR. He has a lisp. He has always had it to my knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. In your opinion he was not homosexual at all?
Mr. SENATOR. No. Just as normal as any human being.
Mr. HUBERT. He was single.
Mr. SENATOR. He has got a brother older than he is and single, never been married, Hyman.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any girl friends?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he went out with various girls.

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Mr. HUBERT. What I am getting at is what you know about his sex relationships.
Mr. SENATOR. His sex relationship, you know I'm not there to watch wherever he may be.
Mr. HUBERT. Still you may have some knowledge of facts which would throw light upon that.
Mr. SENATOR. He likes women.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?
Mr. SENATOR. How do I know he likes women?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I like women.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever tell you that he liked them?
Mr. SENATOR. Did he ever tell me? In any normal conversation I'm certain anybody here, who doesn't say they don't like women. I think this is a normal thing to say.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is simply this. Very naturally as you pointed out a moment ago, it is very rare that there are any eyewitnesses to acts of sexual intercourse. On the other hand, there are other facts and circumstances from which one may judge if a man is having sexual intercourse with a particular woman, and that is what I am trying to get at. Do you know of any such things?
Mr. SENATOR. This here I'm never around.
Mr. HUBERT. What?
Mr. SENATOR. You mean when he is having sexual intercourse with a woman?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; of course you wouldn't be around, but do you have any opinion as to whether or not he was having any affairs of a sexual nature with anybody? If you are reticent about naming names, perhaps we can leave that off.
Mr. SENATOR. I have no names to name, but I am certain that he likes women. I know he talks to them like I talk to them or anybody else talks to them.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever bring any to the apartment that you know of?
Mr. SENATOR. I am certain he has had them up for coffee when I have been there, such as that or a drink or talk, conversation. He has had even the help up there, you know. Once in a while we have a party. This is when I turn out to be the cook.
Mr. HUBERT. But you can't tell us then of any particular person that you would think Jack had intimate relationships with?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know of any at all that you could even suggest in your own mind?
Mr. SENATOR. I have seen him talking to many girls but if anything of that nature I am not around where he don't want me around.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever ask you to leave, for example, because he was having some feminine company, or indicate that he was?
Mr. SENATOR. On rare occasions he has said he was going to have some company or somebody over.
Mr. HUBERT. And he indicated that he wanted you to leave?
Mr. SENATOR. On rare occasions.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the sort of thing I am talking about that would indicate some factual situations upon which you can base your opinion. That is what I was speaking of a moment ago when I asked you for facts and circumstances that would throw light on your opinion, recognizing fully that normally one never actually is an eyewitness to such a thing. Do you have any other types of episodes or evidence of that nature?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his relationship do you think with the girls at his club, I mean the waitresses?
Mr. SENATOR. The girls in his club? Strictly business, strictly business.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that if a person said that Jack was on the make for every one of the girls that worked for him it would be a wrong statement?
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard that expressed many a time.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you think about that statement?

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Mr. SENATOR. It definitely is a wrong statement.
Mr. HUBERT. You never saw it.
Mr. SENATOR. Now what their conversations may be, you know, after all, he has talked to all the girls in the club at one time or another. What the conversations are I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. But you never saw anything that would indicate to you in any way, or heard anything by him that would lead you to the conclusion that his relationship with any of the girls was of an intimate character?
Mr. SENATOR. No; if it was, I didn't know about it.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Jack's attitude about what his girls did in the nature of sexual intimacies with other people than himself?
Mr. SENATOR. The girls working in the club?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. You refer to the strippers or the cocktail waitresses?
Mr. HUBERT. I refer to both, and if there is a difference between them then I would ask you to explain the difference.
Mr. SENATOR. Well, if there was any and he heard about it, I am certain he would probably yank him out. He didn't go for that bit.
Mr. HUBERT. Something must have happened that leads you to that opinion. What is it that leads you to that opinion that he would certainly have done something about it?
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard him mention that he doesn't want anybody outside using any of his girls.
Mr. HUBERT. You yourself have heard him say that?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he don't want any of his girls going out with customers. He didn't want the place to have a reputation such as that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he carry that policy to the point of supervising the personal lives of his strippers and waitresses beyond the area of relations with people who were in the club?
Mr. SENATOR. Beyond the area?
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you mentioned a moment ago that he didn't want any girls to have any dates or anything with any patrons of the club or customers.
Mr. SENATOR. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now my next question is did he extend that policy of supervision of what his girls did to their personal relations with people who were not patrons of the club?
Mr. SENATOR. That I don't know. I don't know about that. I don't know. First of all there can never be controllability of that. After all, where they are, that is their business, wherever they are, whether it is day or night. This I can't even answer you.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack sensitive about his religion?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us how you know that?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, he didn't like the M.C.'s having any jokes about the Jewish race, things of that nature. Now I have heard him say so to a couple of M.C.'s already.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever talk to you personally about it, say anything to you?
Mr. SENATOR. No; not particularly. I mean it has always been in the open. I have even heard him say it right in the club. He don't want any Jewish jokes. He was sensitive this way.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think he was overly sensitive on the subject?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I don't know, overly sensitive, but he was sensitive.
Mr. HUBERT. Is he more sensitive than other Jews that you have known?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say he is; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. With reference to his religion, did he practice it actively?
Mr. SENATOR. As far as going to church, synagogue?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. He went to church; he went to synagogue on holidays.
Mr. HUBERT. That is, Jewish holidays?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; always.
Mr. HUBERT. He wasn't one who went regularly then to synagogue?

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Mr. SENATOR. This I don't know. I would have to leave this question because I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you lived with him.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. During the time that you lived with him did he ever indicate or did you gather that he was a regular churchgoer?
Mr. SENATOR. They go on Friday nights.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see any pattern of his going on Friday nights regularly?
Mr. SENATOR. No, I have never seen a pattern of it. Now I don't say that he has or hasn't been. Maybe he has at certain times and probably not on other times. I don't say this is every Friday night that he goes, no. I wouldn't say that. But he does make, you know, the important holidays.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you consider him to be a religious man?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know how, to tell you the truth, I don't know how to break it down for you, how religious he is. Now we never went into an aspect to talk about just how religious he is. All I can say is that he observes as to holidays.
Mr. HUBERT. He never told you anything which would indicate that he was either religious or not religious.
Mr. SENATOR. No. Well, I think he fasts on a certain type holiday. He fasts, for this kind of fast it is really something, but he does observe those things.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean not the regular Saturday fast?
Mr. SENATOR. No. This is the one time of the year you fast. You don't eat anything for 24 hours. I know he does that.
Mr. HUBERT. I think it is a good time for recess.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask one question here. Does he belong to any lay organizations connected with any of the synagogues in town?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know if he belonged to them or not. This I can't know. But I think he went--it was Temple Emanuel. I don't know which one he went to. I think it was Temple Emanuel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To your knowledge, do you have any knowledge of his ever participating in any activities, Jewish activities?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. B'nai B'rith?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say maybe in donations or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than giving money he didn't belong to the synagogue's men's clubs?
Mr. SENATOR. No, not to my knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. Supposing we take a recess now until 2 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the proceeding recessed.)

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE SENATOR RESUMED

(The proceeding reconvened at 2 p.m.)
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Senator, we are now continuing the deposition which we began this morning. I am sure you understand and I want the record to show that this deposition is being continued under the same authority and under the same conditions as it began this morning, and also that you are under the same oath. Now there are a few more general areas that I would like to talk to you about concerning the character of Jack Ruby and the type of man he was. Let me direct your attention to the political beliefs and thinking of Jack Ruby, and ask you what comment you have to make about that.
Mr. SENATOR. None whatsoever on his beliefs on political issues.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you mean by that that you don't know?
Mr. SENATOR. Break down when you say political issues.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean do you know anything about what his thinking was from what he told you concerning his beliefs about politics in general?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he was not of the nature, he never went into anything of that nature.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear him discuss international politics?

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Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to show any interest in international affairs as they were developing?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean would he be the type of person that would read the newspapers at all? Did he read newspapers at all?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure; he read newspapers religiously every day.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he read all of them, I mean every part of it?
Mr. SENATOR. I will tell you, when you ask me that, I tell you where his reading is. On the toilet bowl. That is where all his reading is--is on the toilet bowl. It may sound funny, but it is true.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us any idea from what you know, of what his reaction to international events was, such as, for instance, the Cuban crisis in 1962?
Mr. SENATOR. He never discussed these.
Mr. HUBERT. You are familiar with what I am talking about? I think it was in the fall of 1962 when we discovered that Cuba had some possible atomic weapons over there, a subject of national interest.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I have read that.
Mr. HUBERT. And the Berlin crisis of the year before?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the sort of thing I mean. Did he comment about that?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn't.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it your thought that he just had no interest in that sort of thing at all?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, if he did or not, he never discussed it too much. He would read a paper. He would read his ad. He reads these--of course, I am certain he reads all parts of the paper, but especially the entertainment part, he was very anxious in reading.
Mr. HUBERT. Normally when two people share space such as you do, and are in each other's company and have any conversation at all, the conversation normally relates to the topics of the day, as it were, as reflected by newspapers and other news media.
I wonder if you can throw any light on what his attitude was or his interest was towards topics of the day of international import.
Mr. SENATOR. I just don't recall. All I know is that he reads the--of course, I am certain he reads all of the paper, you know, or various parts, but he would talk about show business a lot with me, see.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear him discuss at all any international incident?
Mr. SENATOR. I just can't think offhand. I don't say he did or didn't. I just can't think offhand if he did or didn't.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever seek to engage him in small talk, shall we say, about subjects of that nature?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, he talked about the President. I remember once we were watching a picture of President Kennedy's kid going between the desk. He thought that was so wonderful, you know, enjoyed over that. I remember that distinctly.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he saw that on TV?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this he marveled over. But the discussion, we never went into papers too much. He was mainly, I know when he grabbed the paper the first thing he would go to is the show part of it, his competitors, the show part of it, the night life, Tony Zoppi, with a nightclub. He is like, I don't know how to compare him, to somebody who writes a column in New York.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't recall in all of the years you have known Jack of his being interested in international affairs to the point that you can remember any discussion with him?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. At all?
Mr. SENATOR. I really can't think offhand. I don't say that he probably hadn't, but I just don't think offhand.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't remember any such discussions?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't; no.

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Mr. HUBERT. Now what would be your impression, knowing Jack as a whole, of his interest in international affairs?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. The reason I asked you that, although I realize it is an opinion question, is because you have been able to give us your opinion on other aspects of his life and character, for instance, that he was a man who was not a homosexual, and so forth, and you based your opinions upon your experience with him, and this is just another aspect of his character, that is all.
Now I am simply asking you what is your opinion about his interest in communism or rightism or leftism or middle-of-the-roadism or any kind of ism.
Mr. SENATOR. The only way I can refer to anything of that nature is the time we saw the billboards.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean that was----
Mr. SENATOR. The impeachment of----
Mr. HUBERT. After the President was----
Mr. SENATOR. Right; this was the time that I saw----
Mr. HUBERT. We will get to that, but are you willing to say now, as far as you can remember, that that is the only time you ever saw him interested in a matter of that nature?
Mr. SENATOR. You see, when he gets home at night, the first thing he heads for is the bathroom, and the paper goes with him, and from there on he sits there, I don't know, 45 minutes reading the paper.
Mr. HUBERT. I appreciate your comment because it throws some light on it, but I would like to have an answer if you can give it to me to that question. I don't know if I can rephrase it.
(The previous question was read by the reporter.)
Mr. HUBERT. Can you answer that question?
Mr. SENATOR. I didn't get that.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's see if I can rephrase it. You mentioned that you saw him interested in a matter that concerned an ism. I had previously asked you whether or not he had, to your knowledge, any interest in rightism, communism, leftism, middle-of-the-roadism, and you mentioned that one incident.
Mr. SENATOR. Those, none whatsoever, because he is a lover of the country he lives in. He was never----
Mr. HUBERT. I suppose that would be called Americanism.
Mr. SENATOR. Americanism. He loves the nation he is in.
Mr. HUBERT. You formed that opinion, of course, on certain events or things that he told you. Can you refer to what those things would have been?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I can't, but I know that he has never belonged to any organizations. He has never attended any meetings to my knowledge, and this is the only way that I can in all reality base it.
Mr. HUBERT. You say that he is a lover of his country. Now, did he say so or did he act in certain ways regarding certain instances that caused you to form that opinion?
You see what I mean, any impression that you have about anybody is based upon your reactions to things said or done, and that is all I am asking you to say.
Now you say he is a man who loves his country. I ask you, did you hear him say so or did you get that impression from things he did, or attitudes?
Mr. SENATOR. I just take this for granted that he does, the same way as I take it that I know that I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you know you do from your own experience, but on the other hand you don't know about somebody else.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know how to base it with him. I know he is very fond of the city he lived in.
Mr. HUBERT. And how do you know that?
Mr. SENATOR. Because he has told me he likes Dallas. He likes Dallas, he likes everything about it. He liked living there. He liked it because there wasn't any hustle and bustle like any large, big city like New York or Chicago or California.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you similar facts or experiences upon which to base your opinion that he is a lover of the United States as such?

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Mr. SENATOR. I can't base it on anything. It is only what I think. And, of course, to my way of thinking I think everybody does.
Mr. HUBERT. I think I am beginning to see what you mean. You assume that everybody loves their country.
Mr. Senator. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Unless there is something to the contrary.
Mr. SENATOR. Sure.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask some questions along that line.
Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead and do it now unless you prefer to wait.
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I would just as soon, when you finish with an area, pick up from notes I have been making.
Did Jack Ruby, George, to your knowledge show any interest in any political candidates for local office in Texas?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know on that. I will tell you, as far as I know of him, he has never spoken of or never messed around with anything like that, political-wise or anything of that nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him with any campaign literature for anybody?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I haven't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him with any literature of any political sort that would be other than newspaper literature?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You know in Texas and elsewhere there are all sorts of organizations that are putting out literature, the John Birch Society and Civil Liberties Union.
Mr. SENATOR. He never messed around with that. The only first showing I ever seen of any nature was that night he woke me up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned that Jack read newspapers, and you thought every day. Did you have a newspaper delivered to your apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he bought it on the way home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he read newspapers from outside of Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he bought the morning paper and the evening paper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he buy the Fort Worth papers?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and Fort Worth, come to think of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any particular reason why he should buy a Fort Worth paper rather than a Dallas paper?
Mr. SENATOR. No; because he bought them both. No particular reason, but he would buy them both for news or see what is going on in Fort Worth, I assume.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He would buy a Fort Worth paper at a Dallas newsstand or would he only buy the Fort Worth newspaper when he went to Fort Worth?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he would buy a Fort Worth paper, I will tell you where he bought it, he bought it at the Adolphus Hotel. He always picked his paper up at the stand in front of the Adolphus. He would buy the morning news. As a matter of fact, he would buy any paper that was laying around there that the man had in front of the stand there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he read the Wall Street Journal?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don't even think he could understand it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about magazines? Did he subscribe to any magazines?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Time magazine, Newsweek?
Mr. SENATOR. I never seen any magazines come in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any magazines around the house?
Mr. SENATOR. No; the only magazines I ever bought was Reader's Digest.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you people have a television set at your apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you have a radio?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack accustomed to being at home and watching the TV or listening to the radio?
Mr. SENATOR. On the TV part; yes, he would put that on. He would have that on, and, of course, there is two things I know interested him on TV.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. What were those?
Mr. SENATOR. Those were Westerns and the stories, you know, whatever stories there might be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean the movies?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the movies, and he liked the Westerns, you know, the half-hour or hour programs, whatever they were.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a radio in his car?
Mr. SENATOR. He had, what do you call those little things?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Transistor?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; transistor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have one that was installed in the car itself?
Mr. SENATOR. You mean put in?
Mr. GRIFFIN. You know.
Mr. SENATOR. He had it put in?
Mr. GRIFFIN. A car radio.
Mr. SENATOR. Oh yes; installed with the car?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this any sort of special kind of radio?
Mr. SENATOR. No; just a radio that came with the car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It wasn't equipped to receive any kind of frequencies?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. FM or anything like that?
Mr. SENATOR. No. As a matter of fact, the last car he bought he bought second-hand, which he thought he had a good buy on, and he bought it, and, of course, the thing had a radio in it, you know, whatever make it was. Nothing special about, just the ordinary car radio.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about your radio at home? Could that pick up FM?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or shortwave?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know if it could or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of a radio was it?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't even know the make or the brand. One side there was a clock and the other side was a radio.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it then your conclusion about Jack Ruby would be that he didn't have any particular political feelings one way or another, and he wasn't a great patriot and he wasn't disloyal. As far as you knew he was just an ordinary American citizen.
Mr. SENATOR. He was a good, sound American citizen, and politics, he never messed around with that. He never messed around politically at all. The majority was connected with the music industry, the night life, you know, his club, his competitors, what they were doing.
Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to the automobile and the radio----
Mr. SENATOR. Pardon me.
Mr. HUBERT. Concerning the radio in the automobile, what was his custom about putting it on when he was riding? Was it his custom to put it on or not?
Mr. SENATOR. No, not. He normally didn't put it on.
Mr. HUBERT. Normally he would not put it on?
Mr. SENATOR. Normally he wouldn't have it on. He also had one of the little transistors, one of these transistors that he had. The reason he had this transistor, of course he had it before I was around, the car he had before then, the radio didn't work, so he had the transistor.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did he keep it, in the automobile?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he laid it on the seat.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he play it?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he put on the music.
Mr. HUBERT So that was his custom when he was driving around, instead of turning on the radio in the automobile?
Mr. SENATOR. I wouldn't say at all times. Certain times he would put it on and play the music.
Mr. HUBERT. He would play the transistor?

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Mr. SENATOR. Yes. That was on the car he had when the radio, the car radio was not working.
Mr. HUBERT. What was Ruby's habit so far as you know concerning his finances, and his banking and so forth?
Mr. SENATOR. As far as I know about it, his bank was his pockets. Now, if he had any banking, I don't know what he had in it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe then that he carried large sums of money?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh yes; always. Everybody knew that.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, how did he carry it?
Mr. SENATOR. In ready cash.
Mr. HUBERT. But I mean did he roll it up and put it in his pocket?
Mr. SENATOR. Rolled it up or have a string around it, not a string, you know, one of these rubber bands around it. He would carry some here and he would carry some here, and some here, and some in his back pocket. I don't think he knew where he had it half the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that when the witness was saying "here, here and here," he was pointing to various pockets.
Mr. SENATOR. This is the way. As a matter of fact, he used to say to me "George, where is my money," because he can't remember where he put his money.
Mr. HUBERT. Now you were with him frequently when he closed up the Carousel at night and you would go home?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How was the money handled then, that is the receipts of that night?
Mr. SENATOR. In his pocket.
Mr. HUBERT. We have heard something about a canvas bag, a money bag. Did you ever see that?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don't know what he would have in the bag. You know when it comes to money, that is his business. It doesn't get that close to me.
Mr. HUBERT. No; we are just asking you what you observed, that is all, about his handling of it.
Mr. SENATOR. He has had money in the bag, and he has had it in his pockets. Now I don't know what the separation could be unless he has got a certain amount of money for bills or what it is I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. When he had money in the bag where did he leave the bag?
Mr. SENATOR. The bag? In the trunk.
Mr. HUBERT. In the trunk of the car?
Mr. SENATOR. While going home.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you would come out of the Carousel he would take his bag up, and it had money in it, and bring it and throw it in the trunk of the car?
Mr. SENATOR. Right. He would get home, open the trunk, take the bag up.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you know anything about a gun that he had, a pistol?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you know about it.
Mr. SENATOR. I know he had a pistol, one of the small ones. In the nature of his type business, carrying all this money, this cash with him, this is why he always had the gun with him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he keep the gun on his body?
Mr. SENATOR. At times he had it on his body and at times he had it in his pocket.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he own a holster for the gun?
Mr. SENATOR. No; not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Either a shoulder holster or a hip holster?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I have never seen it.
Mr. HUBERT. So when he carried a gun on his person where would he keep it?
Mr. SENATOR. It would be in his pants pocket or sometimes it may be in the bag.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know anything, from talking to him or otherwise, about the ownership of the Vegas Club? Who owned the Vegas, in other words, as far as you know?
Mr. SENATOR. As far as I know Jack Ruby owned it.

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Mr. HUBERT. Am I correct in assuming that your opinion on that point is from what he told you, or did he say anything else?
Mr. SENATOR. I always understood that he owned it, I mean as far as I know. Of course, there is a lot of things that I don't know that he never told me, you know. He doesn't expose everything.
Mr. HUBERT. Eva Grant was actually the operator of it, wasn't she?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but Eva always felt like she was the owner. This is a sister. Of course, she had it and managed it for quite a while. I don't know how long she managed it, has been at the Vegas Club, because it was before me even, you know.
Mr. HUBERT. On what do you base that opinion that she thought that she really was the owner?
Mr. SENATOR. Because I assumed that Jack was a brother and she felt it was like hers.
Mr. HUBERT. You see what I am trying to get at is whether or not there are any statements or incidents that occurred which led you to the opinion that she thought she owned the Vegas. Do you see what I mean?
Mr. SENATOR. The only way I could express that is Jack used to say to me that "Eva thinks she owns the club," because she has been staying there so long.
Mr. HUBERT. How do they get along?
Mr. SENATOR. They are both of the same nature, like cats and dogs.
Mr. HUBERT. I take it from that you mean they used to fight a lot.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; because as well as Jack would holler, let me assure you she can holler too.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have been a witness to some of those instances?
Mr. SENATOR. As a matter of fact, the further away the better.
Mr. HUBERT. I don't quite understand.
Mr. SENATOR. For me the further away the better. In other words, I shied away from all that I didn't want to listen to that kind of stuff.
Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying is---
Mr. SENATOR. I am not happy over the fights.
Mr. HUBERT. My question is how frequently it happened.
Mr. SENATOR. How frequent I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. But you were a witness to some, I take it, and when it began you would want to get away, is that the idea?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I tell you where I heard most of it, I mean what I can recollect is when around the telephone. Of course, I can't hear her, but I can hear him shouting, so apparently I know there is something that is flickering.
He is hollering at her about something, or she is hollering at him about something. See, she is hard to get along with, with the employees of the Vegas Club. She is just hard to work for. All I know is I never want to work for her.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the ownership of the Sovereign and the Carousel? Do you know anything about that, who owned that?
Mr. SENATOR. The Sovereign, he has some partner. I don't remember who his partner was. Of course, this is all before I got that close, but he had a partner in the Sovereign Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Joe Slayton was it?
Mr. SENATOR. That is it, Joe Slayton.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, Slayton ultimately got out of it, didn't he?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it your impression that Jack owned the Sovereign entirely?
Mr. SENATOR. No; Joe Slayton was a part owner.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean after Slayton left.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know about that. That is a little before me.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Ralph Paul? Did he have any part in it?
Mr. SENATOR. Ralph Paul had a part in it. I don't know what the breakdown was, but I know Ralph Paul was connected with it.
Mr. HUBERT. Connected by way of ownership?
Mr. SENATOR. I believe he was connected by ownership. I mean if he owned half or what it was I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. On what facts do you base that?

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Mr. SENATOR. On guesswork. I know he had something to do with it. What part he owned I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. What facts make you state that you know he had something to do with it? There must be something that occurred again.
Mr. SENATOR. Nothing occurred because I mean I have seen Ralph, I know Ralph, and I know there is the association of him having a part of that club somehow.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it to you this way. Did Jack ever tell you that Ralph Paul owned part of it?
Mr. SENATOR. Not directly, but I knew. You know as well as I know Jack, there was an awful lot of things he didn't tell me circularwise. You can say moneywise where he kept his money, if he had a bank account, I know he had a connection with Ralph Paul. How much Ralph owned I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Paul ever tell you anything about his interest or ownership?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the first time he mentioned it to me, and, of course, this is after this whole deal happened.
Mr. HUBERT. The shooting?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you?
Mr. SENATOR. He said once that he had a part of that place there. He was part owner of that place.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when he told you that, and where?
Mr. SENATOR. He told me at the Carousel, but I don't remember when. I mean I can't specifically remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn't it a fact that he took over the management right away, as soon as Jack was in jail?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he did. Now, I don't know how much he owned or how much Jack owned.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you that it was an ownership interest?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, there was, but how much I don't know. In other words, I don't know who owned the bigger piece or if it was equal.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that only the two of them had an interest in it?
Mr. SENATOR. To my knowledge. I don't know of anybody else.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear of his brother Earl having a possible interest in it?
Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Earl?
Mr. SENATOR. Sure. The first time I met Earl is, of course, when all this happened.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't know him before that?
Mr. SENATOR. Never seen him before in my life.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Sam?
Mr. SENATOR. Sam? I knew Sam. I have never seen him that often. Of course, I met Sam at the Vegas Club. Sam at one time worked there with Eva, and they couldn't get along, so Sam was out, fighting like cats and dog. Eva is just a hard girl to work for.
Mr. HUBERT. What was Jack Ruby's attitude toward the police as a group?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, all I know is apparently he must like them. They always used to come to see him.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about those who came to see him. Do you know who they were?
Mr. SENATOR I knew a lot of them by face. I didn't know them all by name.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they come frequently?
Mr. SENATOR. Various ones, yes, every day. I don't say it is the same ones, whoever was coming in, but they would either be plain clothes or police in uniforms.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they come to inspect or to enjoy the club as a place of entertainment?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, they came to inspect, to my knowledge I would say they came to inspect, but Jack always offered them a coffee, asked them if they wanted coffee, a Seven-Up or a Coke.
Mr. HUBERT. Wasn't it a rule in fact that they could get such little items as

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coffee and Cokes and Seven-Ups and soft drinks without cost? He gave them that?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that was the nature of it.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the arrangement about the entrance fee? They didn't pay that, if they came socially?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You have been on the door yourself?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any instructions on that?
Mr. SENATOR. No, they didn't pay entry.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they pay for drinks?
Mr. SENATOR. They had a special rate.
Mr. HUBERT. What was it?
Mr. SENATOR. I think 40 cents, or anybody that was a friend of his--in other words, for an example, your taxi drivers, the taxi drivers used to bring customers. In other words, an out-of-towner would say "where can you go," they would say the Carousel or the Colony or wherever they may bring them.
So they brought them up there, in other words, if they were off duty and wanted to come up, they were guests of Jack's, and they paid a special price for drinks.
Mr. HUBERT. And they didn't pay the admission charge?
Mr. SENATOR. No. Now the fellows who worked downstairs in the garage, they were allowed in, but at a special price. The special price was no different for anybody. It was all one price, the special.
In other words, they gave them a discount on beer or the setups, whichever they were having, and your hotel bellcaps and things in that area, he always let them in free.
I mean he was good to these type people, you know, and, of course, these weren't people of tremendous means or of that nature, and everyone had a cut price, he always gave them a discount on the drinks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to go back a bit. Talking about the ownership of the Vegas Club and the Carousel Club, did Jack rent the premises of the Vegas Club or did he own part of that building?
Mr. SENATOR. No, I think he rented it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He rented it, so when you talk about ownership of that operation out there---
Mr. SENATOR. Not owning the building.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are not talking about any real estate.
Mr. SENATOR. No, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He did have some physical assets out there I suppose? He had tables and chairs?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And a piano maybe?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So, that is what you are talking about when you talk about ownership?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Right?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. In other words, ownership, I refer to the merchandise or the things in the place, not only the building.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the right to get the profits if there were any? Did he get the profits off the Vegas Club or did Eva Grant get the profits, or did they share it in some way?
Mr. SENATOR. This part I don't know. All I know is the money was handled by Eva, and which way the money ever swung was left out of my--wasn't any of my business.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack had a practice at the Carousel, and correct me if I am wrong about this, that at the end of every night, he would take that night's receipts and he would take them down to his car, right?
Mr. SENATOR. Either that or put them in his pocket.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or put them in his pocket?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, whichever he saw fit.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Now what would he do once he got that money in his pocket or in the car? What would he do with it, take it back to the apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would he do with it in the apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. Just leave it in his pants or whatever it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a safe back in the apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a safe at the Carousel Club?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he visit the Vegas Club every night?
Mr. SENATOR. No. He would probably say he would visit the Vegas Club--you know, for a while they were running this amateur hour every Friday, and Jack would go after he closed the Carousel, he would go over to the Vegas because the Vegas would stay open one hour later.
I don't know how to describe it. They were able to stay open until 3 o'clock in the morning, and they would have a little bit of entertainment from 2 to 3, and Jack would sort of MC it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you say Jack wouldn't go there every night?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many nights a week would he go to the Vegas Club?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say, of course, I can't always say, I don't always see him all the time, you know, and I am not with him all the time, but I would probably say it was more so weekends. Now, during the week I don't say that he probably hasn't jumped over there, because if he has I don't even know, because when he does go out he doesn't tell me his moves where he is going.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were living with Jack at the Carousel Club in that period of time, how long was that that you lived at the Carousel Club?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know how long he lived there before me. I don't know how long he lived there previous to when I came, but I wasn't there too long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you there a week or 2 weeks?
Mr. SENATOR. It might be. I just don't remember how long it could be. It might have been 2 weeks. It might have been 3 weeks, I don't know. It might be that long. Mind you, I want you to know this is guesswork. I am only guessing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it your impression that during the week on 5-day weeks that maybe 3 or 4 nights out of a week he would not go to the Vegas Club?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am saying that he wouldn't go to the Vegas Club. There would be 3 or 4 nights out of the week that he would not go to the Vegas Club?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; I would probably say that, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what was done with the money over at the Vegas Club every night?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know, that part I don't know. I am not familiar with that part.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Jack take any money from the Vegas Club and bring it back to the apartment or put it in his car or in his pockets?
Mr. SENATOR. No; not out of the Vegas. I don't know if it has been done, but I haven't witnessed it. The money is handled, at the Vegas the money is handled by Eva. Now, how she disburses it or banks it I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any bank accounts that Jack maintained?
Mr. SENATOR. He had one bank. What he had in it I don't know. I am trying to think of the name of the bank. Do you have a listing of the banks he has? Can you refresh my memory on it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I can give you a list of banks and read off some names. Tell me if any of these are familiar to you. How about the Park Cities Bank and Trust Company?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the National Bank of Commerce?
Mr. SENATOR. No.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. The American Bank and Trust Company?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The Mercantile National Bank?
Mr. SENATOR. No; see, if you can find one on--continue.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, the Industrial National Bank.
Mr. SENATOR. Merchants. Have you got Merchants? That is the one I am thinking of. I think he had a bank account at the Merchants.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But not the Mercantile National Bank?
Mr. SENATOR. If he did I didn't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there two different banks, one the Merchants and the other the Mercantile?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the South Oak Cliff State Bank?
Mr. SENATOR. If he did I didn't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you only heard of one?
Mr. SENATOR. I heard of the Merchants.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him discuss what was done with the receipts from the Vegas Club?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Eva Grant mention that?
Mr. SENATOR. No; but I will tell you what I assumed. I assumed the money was paid, what money was taken in, I assumed that the employees were paid off, the band was paid off, the gas and electric and the rent would come out of that. This is what I assumed, or whatever incidentals there might be. Now, the disposal otherwise I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Then the fact is that you don't really know how the funds at the Vegas were handled?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or what part Jack got of it?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now let's move to the period of the week of the assassination of the President. Can you tell us first of all where you were when you heard of the assassination?
Mr. SENATOR. I was in a bar having a liquid lunch. I was uptown. I was in a bar and had a couple of beers for lunch instead of eating lunch, and some chap walked in, who I don't know, and he drove up with his car and he had the radio on, and as he walked in he said, "The President was shot." And I hollered "You're kidding." He says, "No; I am not kidding." So we got outside, and this is all going on on this car radio we listened to.
Mr. HUBERT. That was in downtown Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I was uptown.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you seen the Presidential parade?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn't see it at all.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether Jack planned to see the parade?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn't.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he comment about the President's visit?
Mr. SENATOR. You see, let me jump a little ahead of that. That morning, you see, of course, which is a working day for me, I am up much earlier than he is, and he was sleeping when I left that morning.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him the night before?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the night before.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you discussed the visit of the President, his coming, the next day?
Mr. SENATOR. We talked about that. We talked about the President was coming in, you know.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of his comment concerning this?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't remember what he said.
Mr. HUBERT. I don't mean the words, but the ideas.
Mr. SENATOR. Well, we were happy that he was coming.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack was too?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; coming into Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack tell you why he felt happy about it?

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Mr. SENATOR. No; I just don't remember if he did relate that or not, but we thought it was a great honor for him to come to Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he think his coming would help business in Dallas generally, and his business in particular?
Mr. SENATOR. No; there was no comment on that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he state whether or not he was going to try to see the parade?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn't mention that.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have previously said in a statement that you saw him sometime that night, and he went out or something, and then you went to bed?
Mr. SENATOR. No. The next time that I saw him was the following morning when he woke me up.
Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about the night now of the 21st, before the President was shot, Thursday night, you all talked about the President's coming. Did he go out or stay at home, do you recall?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he is at the club. He goes to the club.
Mr. HUBERT. He is at the club?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You went to bed, and when he came in I assume you were sleeping.
Mr. SENATOR. You are talking about Thursday?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, I am talking about Thursday night and Friday morning.
Mr. SENATOR. Thursday night--the President came in Friday.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; but Thursday night did Jack follow his usual routine?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; his usual routine.
Mr. HUBERT. You were asleep I guess when he got back?
Mr. SENATOR. Thursday night I don't remember if I was or not.
Mr. HUBERT. Anyhow, Friday morning when you got up he was asleep.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you didn't talk to him until you heard of the death of the President?
Mr. SENATOR. No; the next time that I talked to him was Saturday morning.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't speak to him at all on Friday afternoon after the death?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I never saw him at all. I was out. I was out all day.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go home on Friday night at all?
Mr. SENATOR. Sure.
Mr. HUBERT. What time?
Mr. SENATOR. Friday night I must have went home around somewheres between 10 and 11. Of course, I bought the paper at the Adolphus before I went home. I always buy a paper, too.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack home then?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. He had not attempted to contact you from the time of the President's death at all?
Mr. SENATOR. No. He couldn't contact me because I was around.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you try to contact him?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you bring out where it was that he was around?
Mr. SENATOR. When I said "around"?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. SENATOR. Around town, no particular place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you going from bar to bar?
Mr. SENATOR. No, not bar to bar. I had been at a couple of bars. I was with a friend of mine that night, and we went out, we had a couple of beers and we were so disgusted, if you can picture the overall picture of Friday night in the city of Dallas after the occurrence, what happened that afternoon or late that morning, the city was, I don't know how to describe it, morguelike. They were brooding. Everybody was brooding, a sad affair.

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Mr. HUBERT. Of course you don't know whether Jack went to the apartment on Friday night before you got there?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. So you went home and went to bed.
Mr. SENATOR. I read the paper in bed, and that is when I saw the why's about the President. They had a list, "Why, Mr. President?"
Mr. HUBERT. A full-page ad?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; "Why, Mr. President," so and so, "Why are you here?"
Mr. HUBERT. The one signed by Bernard Weissman? W-e-i-s-s-m-a-n.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You saw that before you saw Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. As a matter of fact, I read the paper in bed.
Mr. HUBERT. You went to sleep, I take it?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened next?
Mr. SENATOR. The next thing I know somebody was hollering at me and shaking me up. This was around 3 o'clock in the morning.
Mr. HUBERT. That was who?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. Now describe him to us at that time. What was his condition?
Mr. SENATOR. He was excited. He was moody; and the first thing come out of his mouth is the incident. Of course, the incident what happened to President Kennedy, and he said, "Gee, his poor children and Mrs. Kennedy, what a terrible thing to happen."
Mr. HUBERT. Had he been drinking?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack don't drink.
Mr. HUBERT. He wasn't drinking on this occasion?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he don't drink, no.
Mr. HUBERT. And his remarks were concerning the children?
Mr. SENATOR. The children and Mrs. Kennedy and how sorry he felt for them.
Mr. HUBERT. What other comments did he make?
Mr. SENATOR. Then he brought up the situation where he saw this poster of Justice of the Peace Earl Warren impeach him, Earl Warren.
Mr. HUBERT. He said he had seen that poster?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he had saw that poster.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say when he had noticed it?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I think he noticed it that day or sometime that day, I assume. I am not sure but I think it was that day, and I assume that when something goes into his brain he wants to follow it up and find out why, why that poster was up there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you had some experience like that before?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But I mean you said some experiences where he got something in his mind and he wanted to find out why, and he followed it up.
Mr. SENAT0R. I don't know. I can't relate any, but I assume these things could happen.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you had never had any experience of that sort?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I haven't had any experience.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So, this was a new experience for you.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and he made me get dressed.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you when he made you get dressed?
Mr. SENATOR. He was telling me about this sign here.
Mr. HUBERT. Why did he want you to get dressed?
Mr. SENATOR. He wanted me to go down to see the sign, and meanwhile he had called. He had a kid sleeping in the club who helps around, and he has got a Polaroid camera. So he calls the kid up, wakes him up.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear that call?
Mr. SENATOR. What?
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear that call?
Mr. SENATOR. Yeah, he calls him up and says, "Larry, get up, get dressed," something of that nature, "and get that Polaroid with the flashbulbs and meet me downstairs. I'll be right downtown."

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Mr. HUBERT. That was after he told you to get dressed?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; after he told me first.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he at that time comment upon or notice the Weissman ad that you had been reading the night before, the big ad that you commented upon, "Why, Mr. President," I think it was called?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't remember he noticed it there or he noticed it after the incident. Now, if he seen it before I just don't remember, but I know after we got through this incident, which I will relate to you, we were looking at this ad.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was at the house?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; this was--I saw it myself originally.
Mr. HUBERT. In the newspapers?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You had the newspaper on your bed. You had gone to sleep reading?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I probably threw it on the floor. I think I threw it on the floor before I went to bed.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case you have no recollection that you discussed the ad prior to leaving the house?
Mr. SENATOR. I just don't remember if I did or not, but I do know that we did look at that ad that night at another place.
Mr. HUBERT. We will get to that. What happened next then?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I got dressed, went downstairs, got in the car. I got dressed. We went downtown. We picked up Larry. He drove over to where this billboard was.
Mr. HUBERT. Had he told you where it was beforehand?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.; he told me it was on the corner of Hall and the expressway.
Mr. HUBERT. Which expressway?
Mr. SENATOR. North Central Expressway. I had an indication because I sort of knew the location of the area. I know where Hall Street is and I know where the expressway is.
Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead. Just pick up as to what happened.
Mr. SENATOR. So we went downtown and picked up Larry. From there we drove over to where this billboard was, and he had the kid take three Polaroid shots of this billboard. Now, what his intentions were with these I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn't express any?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn't say what he was going to do with them but he wanted three shots.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him or did anyone else ask him why he wanted to take pictures of this?
Mr. SENATOR. No; all he said to me, "I can't understand why they want to impeach Earl Warren" He said, "This must be the work of the John Birch Society or the Communist Party." And he wanted to know why.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say how taking a picture would help him to find out?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn't. He didn't say how that would help him to find out. So from there we went down to the post office.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Larry go with you?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. To the post office, I mean.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do at the post office?
Mr. SENATOR. Wait now, we went down to the post area. This sort of slips away from me when the time gets by on the ad. We must have discussed it or seen it at the house. I just remember now, but I think we probably did. We must have seen it. So anyhow we went up to the post office.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say "the ad"----
Mr. SENATOR. The paper ad.
Mr. HUBERT. The Bernard Weissman ad?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the Bernard Weissman ad.
Mr. HUBERT. So you now think, and let me get it straight, you previously stated that you weren't sure?
Mr. SENATOR. I wasn't sure.
Mr. HUBERT. That Ruby had noticed the Bernard Weissman ad after he had

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wakened you at the house, and you were dressing, and before you left, but you think now you must have?
Mr. SENATOR. We must have because we went to the post office.
Mr. HUBERT. When he did see the ad, was there a comment about that?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he wanted to know why on this.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, there were two things he wanted to know why on.
Mr. SENATOR. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Why the Earl Warren poster and why the Bernard Weissman ad?
Mr. SENATOR. Right; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So then he had you take Polaroid pictures of the poster concerning Chief Justice Warren, and then you went to the post office.
Mr. SENATOR. We went to the post office.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of going there, and in connection with what?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, that was in connection--going to the post office was in connection with the paper ad now.
Mr. HUBERT. How was it connected to the paper ad?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, there was a post office box on this ad. I just don't recall the number of the post office box. But he wanted to see if there was such a box.
Mr. HUBERT. So did you go into the post office with him?
Mr. SENATOR. We went into the post office. We saw a box with that number on it. There was a lot of mail in there.
Now, of course, who it belonged to---we don't know if it belonged to him or not, but he did press the night buzzer. There was a little hole there where you get the night clerk, and he asked the night clerk who--I think it was 1762 or something like that. I just don't remember the number.
He asked him who it is. The night man says, "I can't give you any information. Any information you want there is only one man can give it to you and that is the postmaster of Dallas."
Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby make a reply to that?
Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge. You mean to him?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; to the clerk. Did he say anything more?
Mr. SENATOR. No; if I am not mistaken, I think he said "How do you get to the postmaster" or something of that nature. I am not sure now.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he annoyed with the clerk?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he wasn't annoyed with the clerk, but he was deeply annoyed with the ad, with both ads.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you how checking the box at the post office would assist him in whatever he had in mind?
Mr. SENATOR. He wanted to know; he had also said that he had checked the telephone directory and couldn't find this Bernard Weissman, who supposedly put an ad like this here, and couldn't have been local because he looked to see if there was a Bernard Weissman in the Dallas telephone book.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't see him look it up. He merely told you that?
Mr. SENATOR. He merely told me that. I didn't see him look it up.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Larry Crafard go with you to the post office?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he stay in the automobile, or come to the post office with you?
Mr. SENATOR. I believe he came into the post office; I have to guess on this. I am not sure, but I think he came into the post office.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. SENATOR. Then from there we went to the Southland Hotel coffeeshop.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is that located?
Mr. SENATOR. That is on the corner, on Commerce, and I don't know what the little side street is, but it is just below the Adolphus Hotel on Commerce Street. I don't know what the side street is.
Mr. HUBERT. Who went?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack, Larry, and myself.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?
Mr. SENATOR. I would assume we stayed there--- maybe about 15 minutes would be a rough guess.

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Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall the nature of the discussion between you at that time?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He reread this paper ad of the why's of the President.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did he get the paper from?
Mr. SENATOR. It happened to be it was lying on the counter. The news was lying on the counter, and, of course, he ruffled through it.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say he reread it; so now you are quite certain that he had read it before?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he must have read it before. See, now, I can't tell you if he read it before that or I showed it to him or what. I just don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case when he saw it at the coffeeshop, it was obviously the second time.
Mr. SENATOR. He was very disturbed.
Mr. HUBERT. Or the third time.
Mr. SENATOR. He was very, very disturbed over both of these.
Mr. HUBERT. Explain what actions of his lead you now to the conclusion that you describe as a disturbed condition.
Mr. SENATOR. His voice of speech; the way he looked at you.
Mr. HUBERT. His voice was loud or low or different or what?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it was different. It was different; the way he looked at you. It just don't look like the normal procedure.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him in that condition before?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say--I don't know how to put these conditions together, but I have seen him hollering, things like I told you in the past, but this here, he had sort of a stare look in his eye. I don't know how to describe it. I don't know how to put it together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I didn't catch that. What kind of a look?
Mr. SENATOR. A stare look; I don't know. I can't express it. I don't know how to put it in words.
Mr. HUBERT. But it was different from anything you had ever seen on Jack Ruby before?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was noticeably so?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice it?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I could notice it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it disturb you any?
Mr. SENATOR. I wouldn't say exactly I was disturbed, but I could notice it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be concerned about the President's death or the ad or what?
Mr. SENATOR. To me, I would probably say it must have been a combination of the entire thing. I know he was deeply hurt about the President, terribly.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you know that. How do you know that?
Mr. SENATOR. What? By his feelings; by the way he talked about the family and the children; by tears in his eyes, which I have seen, and I am not the only one who has seen it.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that he was more disturbed than the average person that you know was disturbed about the President's death?
Mr. SENATOR. All I know, while I can't say about the average because all I know, he was really deeply disturbed, but I can't describe an average because there might be another individual of his nature, too, who knows. Who knows the affections of each and every individual?
Mr. HUBERT. In any case his reaction was such----
Mr. SENATOR. It was pretty well--you know, disturbed as I was and as disturbed as I have seen many friends of mine, it was worse with him than it was with the others who I have seen.
Mr. HUBERT. That is exactly what I was getting at. So he got hold of this newspaper ad and read it again---is that it--that is, in the coffeeshop?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he looked it over again.
Mr. HUBERT. What comment did he make, while reading it or after?
Mr. SENATOR. While reading it?

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Mr. HUBERT. I don't mean his words, you understand, his exact words, but the meaning, the thoughts expressed.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the thoughts. He can't understand it. It is so penetrated in his mind he can’t understand why somebody would want to do something like this.
Mr. HUBERT. The ad had nothing to do with killing the President?
Mr. SENATOR. No; but he couldn't understand why an ad like this should break out, about this ad. Another thing he couldn't understand why in the world would they want to impeach Justice Earl Warren. Incidentally, that sign come out of Massachusetts, that billboard.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it your impression that Ruby was putting the three instances together as being connected in some way; to wit: the death of the President, the impeach Earl Warren sign, and the Weissman ad? Was he seeming to do that?
Mr. SENATOR. He was seeming to do at that time he was seeming to do with the impeachment of Earl Warren, and the Weissman sign; he couldn't understand why these things were of a nature--I don't know how long this billboard has been out. I don't know if it has been a day, two, or what it was, and then the ad break out the same day that President Kennedy was coming in. He wanted to know the whys.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, as I understand you, you gathered that was running through his mind, was why the ad, and the poster, appeared at the same time as the visit of the President; is that correct?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say it is something of that nature, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. I want to distinguish that, if possible, from another situation, and that is whether or not you gathered that he was disposed to place the killing of the President together with the poster and the ad.
Mr. SENATOR. Run that again.
Mr. HUBERT. From what you could gather from his attitude, from what he said and how he acted, do you think it was running through his mind that there was a connection between the Earl Warren poster, the Weissman ad, and the killing of the President rather than the President's visit?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I would say the subject at that time, when he was looking at the sign and taking pictures of it, and the newspaper ad, that this is where he really wanted to know the whys or why these things had to be out. He is trying to combine these two together, which I did hear him say, "This is the work John Birch Society or the Communist Party or maybe a combination of both.”
Mr. HUBERT. What is the work of those two; the death of the President?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no, no, no.
Mr. HUBERT. The publication of these signs?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He did not indicate what his impressions were as to who was behind the death of the President?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn't indicate that.
Mr. HUBERT. Nor did he seem to associate the ads and the poster with the President's death?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know about that part.
Mr. HUBERT. But you do know that he was wondering why these two things, the poster and ad, should come out at the same time?
Mr. SENATOR. Now, mind you, I don't know if they come out at the same time, because the billboard, I don't know if that thing was there a day or a week.
Mr. HUBERT. But he was associating the two of those together?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Or trying to find out if there was any connection between those two?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he wanted to know why.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was the fact that the ad was published and the sign was posted that he attributed to the Communists or the Birch Society.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and he couldn't understand why the Dallas Morning News would ever print such a thing like that, say that in their paper.
Mr. HUBERT. You see what I am trying to get at is whether he manifested in

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any way that his thinking associated the assassination of the President with the posting of the Warren poster and publication of the ad, or rather whether he was simply associating the fact of the publication of the ad and the posting of the poster with communism, and so forth.
Mr. SENATOR. To my belief I think he was trying to associate the ad and the poster with the Communist Party or the John Birch Society.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not gather from what he said that he associated the death of the President to the Birch Society or the Communists or any other group?
Mr. SENATOR. Not at the time that we were talking; rather, he was talking about the signs.
Mr. HUBERT. That is, the poster and the ad?
Mr. SENATOR. The poster and the ad.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you all talked to anybody else in the coffeehouse, in the coffeeshop?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I don't think there was anybody in there at that time outside of, I think, a cashier and probably a waitress.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether he made any comment to the cashier or the waitress?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Larry have any comment to make that you recall?
Mr. SENATOR. I just don't remember if he had any or not.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, when Ruby stated what you said he stated concerning the poster, and so forth, did you have any comment to make about it?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, nothing compared to him. Of course, after I heard him mention it, then I sort of wondered also why an ad like that would be put in the paper, or why anybody would want to impeach Justice Earl Warren. What did it mean?
Mr. HUBERT. Jack had taken the pictures and he had gone to the post office to check on the box. Did he state what he intended to do further?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you tried to calm him down?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it your impression that his state was that he should be spoken to by a friend and calmed down?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I don't know. It is hard for me to say these things. Who would really know?
Mr. HUBERT. But in any case you didn't argue with him about his view?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I don't argue with him at any time.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not state a concurring view, I take it?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or an opposing view?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Nor did Larry?
Mr. SENATOR. Larry I can't speak for because I just don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. And you don't remember whether Ruby spoke to anybody else or anyone else spoke to him?
Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. Then what did you all do next?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you go on, did Jack indicate what he was going to do with the photographs that he took?
Mr. SENATOR. No. He just took them and he never said what he was going to do with them. Of course, I know what the windup was with them later on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was that?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I believe the local policemen got them after the shooting when they searched him, took his money and his papers, and all of that, and I believe those pictures were with it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you----
Mr. SENATOR. At least I assumed the pictures were with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where this sign was located? When you rode out there in the car, do you recall any conversation you had with him, out to the sign?

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Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That was covered.
Mr. SENATOR. You see, when I have to jump 5 months back, it is hard to remember little things. It is not holding back. It is hard to remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you all go then?
Mr. SENATOR. From there he dropped Larry off, and Larry went back up and went to bed up at the club. Then we went home.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any further discussion at all between you and Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. Let's see; I think we put on the TV for awhile that morning.
Mr. HUBERT. It was about what time of the morning when you got back?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say somewhere between 5 and 6. Of course, I am guessing the time.
Mr. HUBERT. It was still dark, wasn't it?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, but I think it was sort of a break already; you know, sort of lighting up a little bit.
Mr. HUBERT. Go on.
Mr. SENATOR. And if I remember right, I think it was a rerun of the episodes of the day, if I remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to bed before Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. You mean when we came back to the apartment?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. The same time. We went at the same time.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you all looked at TV for a period. How long a period?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know; maybe 10 or 15 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you all went to bed?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You went to sleep?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether he did or not?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, he went to bed. I assumed----
Mr. HUBERT. You were in a different room from him?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I assumed he did, because when I woke up he was still asleep; you know, later on.
Mr. HUBERT. What time was that?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say I must have woke up around, I don't know, 10 o'clock, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. That is Saturday morning?
Mr. SENATOR. Saturday morning. I would say something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. He was still asleep?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he was still asleep, but through the normal shuffling, you know, going to the bathroom and such and such, it woke him up.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was the telephone in that apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. In the living room, but it had a long wire.
Mr. HUBERT. But the ringing sound frome from the actual machine itself? The ring would be where the phone was located?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was the phone located that night, do you know, in the living room?
Mr. SENATOR. I think it was in the living room.
Mr. HUBERT. How far from your bedroom was it?
Mr. SENATOR. I couldn't----
Mr. HUBERT. As close as his?
Mr. SENATOR. Let me tell you. In the living room, of course, he had one of these extension wires that would probably run, what, 13 feet or something like that, 12 feet I don't know what the extension is, but where it was at that moment I don't know. I assumed that it was on the table. I just don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Would he nomally take it in his room?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't think he could get it all the way in his room. You see, he had the far bedroom and my bedroom was closer. I could take it in mine,

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but I don't think I could take it in his, or he might be able to take it just partially a little bit, but I don't think it would extend that far.
Mr. HUBERT. If the phone machine was in the living room where it normally was, you would be closer to it, right, than he would?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I take it you did not hear a phone call for him that morning?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever had occasion where the ringing of the phone wakened you?
Mr. SENATOR. I would have to say "No" on that because I am always up before he is.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us whether or not if Jack had received a phone call about 8:30 Saturday morning you would have heard it and it would have wakened you?
Mr. SENATOR. If he did I just don't recollect. I wouldn't say he did or didn't have one because I just don't remember if he did have one.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't remember if he had one?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That I understand. But what I am asking you is whether or not the ringing of that phone in the position it was as you have explained it that is closer to you than to him, would have awakened you.
Mr. SENATOR. Oh sure, sure. I could have heard it.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to go so far as to state that since it did not awaken you, that there was no phone call?
Mr. SENATOR. I couldn't quote because I don't know if there was a phone call.
Mr. HUBERT. That is not what I asked you. I am asking you whether you are willing to state that if there had been a phone call, it would have awakened you?
Mr. SENATOR. I would assume so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me go back a bit here. Up until the time you went to bed early Saturday morning, had Jack told you what he had done since the President was shot?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I know of some of them. I know that he went to the synagogue.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you did he tell you that night? I am not asking you what you know now, but before you went to bed Saturday morning had Jack told you what he had done that night, rather what he had done since the President had been shot?
Mr. SENATOR. I think he went to the wait, I don't remember if he told me that night or it was the next day. This is the thing I don't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is what I am trying to get at is whether you have any recollection.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't remember, but I do know that he had told me that he went to a synagogue and that he brought sandwiches around to the police station, these are things I knew that he did. But I don't remember if he told me that night or the next morning. I don't remember which time it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got up the next morning?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack up?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he was sleeping.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you see Jack before you left the house Saturday morning?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh yes. He was still home when I left.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he awake?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you talked with him?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That is where I had left off.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right. That is why I stopped.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said as a matter of fact here that the process of

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your waking up and moving around the house and so forth wakened him. How long did you stay around the house?
Mr. SENATOR. Saturday morning you are referring to?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; after awakening.
Mr. SENATOR. Saturday morning I must have left, as a guess, mind you, somewhere around, maybe somewhere between 11:30 and 12:30. Of course, I am only guessing. I could be a half hour off or I might be an hour off.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say that you stayed around the house anywhere from 1 hour to 2 hours after you awakened?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I would probably say that.
Mr. HUBERT. And during most of that time Jack was awake and up, too?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He awoke after.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you recall the substance of the conversations between you during that period of either 1 hour or 2 hours or something in between?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, we watched TV a bit, and he had mentioned--of course, he wasn't feeling good when he woke up---he had mentioned the fact, he sort of rehashed the President and the kids all the time, how sorry he felt for them and how a great man like President Kennedy could have been shot. He thought this was a terrible thing to happen. Many a time he went through this how sorry he felt for the kids and Mrs. Kennedy, a poor tragic thing like this to happen to them.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you that he had decided to close the clubs?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I wasn't with him. That was Friday night.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand that, but I mean by Saturday morning, we are speaking of the conversations of Saturday morning.
Mr. SENATOR. No; this I already knew.
Mr. HUBERT. You already knew?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you find that out?
Mr. SENATOR. Friday night.
Mr. HUBERT. Who told you?
Mr. SENATOR. The ad in the paper.
Mr. HUBERT. That is how you first saw it?
Mr. SENATOR That is how I knew. That was an ad at the same time----
Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss with him, at any time, either on Friday night or Saturday morning, the fact that he had closed the clubs, and the reason therefor?
Mr. SENATOR. He told me why he closed the club. He put this in heavy black, in heavy black block, that the Carousel will be closed Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, because he thought it was a terrible thing for anybody to be dancing and entertaining or drinking of that nature there at a time such as this.
Mr. HUBERT. You say that he put an ad in the paper Friday night that the club would be closed for 3 days?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know what time because I assume he put it in sometime Friday afternoon.
Mr. HUBERT. But the first time you saw the notice about the closing of the clubs, there was an announcement that the club would be closed for 3 days?
Mr. SENATOR. Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, I mean Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. That is the way the ad ran.
Mr. HUBERT. And you saw that on Friday night before going to sleep?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to him about it?
Mr. SENATOR. About the ad?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Being closed?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I told him that I read it.
Mr. HUBERT. And what was his comment, or query?
Mr. SENATOR. He was hoping that everybody else would close. He was hoping that the two other strip joints would close when they read his ad, because he didn't feel they should be open on account of the simple reason of the tragedy

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that happened, where they should be having entertainment, dancing, and drinking. He didn't think it was the right thing to do at this time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you that he thought it would hurt them if they did not close also?
Mr. SENATOR. That it would hurt their business?
Mr. HUBERT. The other business, his competitors?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I don't know about that, but I assumed, of course, I am assuming only what I think, that I believe a lot of stores also closed that day. I think Neuman Marcus closed. I believe in that downtown area there was quite a few stores that did close.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it come to your attention that he was attempting to keep his competitors from knowing that he proposed to close?
Mr. SENATOR. How could he when he ran an ad?
Mr. HUBERT. I mean for the Friday night.
Mr. SENATOR. To keep them from knowing?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever indicate to you----
Mr. SENATOR. As a matter of fact, I would think he would want them to close.
Mr. HUBERT. Why?
Mr. SENATOR. And I assumed that the way he put that ad in there. He thought everybody should observe something, such as what happened.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware that he had told Larry Crafard not to put a little sign that was posted in front of the Carousel, not to tack it up announcing the closing of the Carousel until after the time for the opening of the other competitors?
Mr. SENATOR. No; because I never saw him that day.
Mr. HUBERT. But he didn't indicate to you as a matter of fact that he would like to see them open while he was closed?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. In grief over the President?
Mr. SENATOR. I was sort of inclined with my own thoughts in mind that he would probably want to see them closed. This was my own thought of mind.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack give you any of his reflections on how this tragedy of the death of the President would affect the community of Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. No; not that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about either Friday night or Saturday or at any other time.
Mr. SENATOR. You are referring to the individuals in the city of Dallas, right, the people of the city of Dallas?
Mr. HUBERT. The business principally.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don't think so.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall his making any comment to the effect that this tragedy would hurt the convention business of Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. If he said it I just don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment to you that you recall or heard to the effect that the tragedy and the hurting of the convention business would hurt his own Carousel and Vegas business?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. He did not comment upon that at all?
Mr. SENATOR. If he did, I just don't remember. I really don't.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his general condition on Saturday morning during the hour or 2 hours that you had occasion to observe him as opposed to the condition that you have already described on Friday night?
Mr. SENATOR. He still had that hurt feeling within him of what happened, and apparently this had never left his mind.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he talk about the poster and the pictures he had obtained of it, or the Bernard Weissman ad?
Mr. SENATOR. He was now referring to the tragedy of the President, and of the family, what would happen to the family.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, on Saturday morning the events of earlier that

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morning, that is his agitation over the poster and his agitation over the advertisement seemed to have passed away?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know if it did or not.
Mr. HUBERT. But he didn't comment on it?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't remember him commenting on it.
Mr. HUBERT. And his attitude at least was different in that regard than what it was the night before?
Mr. SENATOR. What he thought I still don't know about that.
Mr. HUBERT. You have given us a description of what his reaction was to the poster and to the ad.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now what happened----
Mr. HUBERT. That Friday night. All I am trying to do is get a comparison of his attitude in those areas between the two times. Do you see what I mean? I gather from what you tell me, let me see if I can rephrase it, that on Saturday morning the stress, if it could be called that, or the most important aspect of his reaction that you observed was his feeling of sorrow as to the President's family.
Mr. SENATOR. Saturday morning?
Mr. HUBERT. Saturday morning.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; which was working on him pretty good.
Mr. HUBERT. Now you say that it was working on him pretty good, and that is a mental impression that must have been created by the happening of events or by statements being made. How was it working on him pretty good? What did he say or do to convey to you that it was working on him pretty good?
Mr. SENATOR. He kept on repeating these things, numerous times he repeated that.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that extraordinary for him?
Mr. SENATOR. I would think it would be. To me it would be.
Mr. HUBERT. And what else was he doing that indicated to you----
Mr. SENATOR. And I had seen him cry, because I guess who hasn't you know.
Mr. HUBERT. And what else?
Mr. SENATOR. And I had seen him cry, and he just got that funny look in his eyes. I don't know how to describe it. You call it a far-away look or a look of something. I don't now how to tear it down. But it wasn't a natural look.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have that impression that morning or have you reconstructed all this in your mind after all the events had happened?
Mr. SENATOR. About his looks?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No; you could see it. After all, I have been around him enough to know the difference.
Mr. HUBERT. You noticed the difference. And, of course, he shot Oswald.
Mr. SENATOR. What?
Mr. HUBERT. You noticed this difference, and you now have a recollection of noticing that difference about the events of the next day; is that right?
Let me show you what I mean. I want you to try to remember whether you had a distinct impression, which you now recollect, on Saturday about his worsening condition. Do you have that recollection now, Mr. Senator?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I could tell by facial expressions, facial look.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am getting at is whether or not in thinking over this thing as you must have done, of course, that you reconstructed all of this, and that your recollection is of the reconstruction rather than of the fact itself. Do you understand what I mean?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don't know what you mean when you ask me if I am reconstructing it.
Mr. HUBERT. What I mean is this. When after all this whole thing came to a climax with the shooting of Oswald by Ruby, you must have put all of your thoughts together concerning those last days, and as a matter of fact you have been questioned a number of times by a number of people.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Including Government agents?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And including his lawyer. What I want to know is whether

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what you are telling us now is a recollection of the reconstruction of this whole period, or is it now a distinct recollection independent of any reconstruction that you made in telling the story to anybody else. Do you remember now, today, that on that Saturday morning you had the feeling that man is getting worse on this subject?
Mr. SENATOR. That is the way he appeared to me.
Mr. HUBERT. And you remember that now, that that thought turned over in your mind on Saturday morning.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it alarm you in any way?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know how to describe myself with it, but I know it didn't look good.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your fear?
Mr. SENATOR. I wasn't fearing anything. I just didn't like the way he looked.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say it didn't look good, in what way do you mean?
Mr. SENATOR. It didn't look like the normal look as I have known him.
Mr. HUBERT. Was your concern, if not your fear, that he might go off his normal method of thinking or that he would do himself harm? I mean were you concerned or was it just simply an observation which you passed on?
Mr. SENATOR. I am observing all this. You know I can tell. But I didn't know what to think. I didn't know how to think.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already said that you didn't have any fears of anything.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I wasn't afraid of him.
Mr. HUBERT. No; but I mean were you concerned that something might happen to him, that he might do something?
Mr. SENATOR. No; not particularly; no.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you think that---
Mr. SENATOR. The thing is I never asked him the thoughts within him or what he was thinking about.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it occur to you that maybe somebody ought to talk to him about it, that his grief was going to the point, or his condition of being upset was going to the point that somebody ought to talk to him about it?
Mr. SENATOR. I know he visited his sister, and. of course, both were in grief together, and I don't know if he contacted his rabbi or not.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned a little while ago that he told you he had been to the----
Mr. SENATOR. To the synagogue.
Mr. HUBERT. To the synagogue?
Mr. SENATOR. If he talked to the rabbi, I don't know. Now, I know that he went to the synagogue that Friday night to pray for the President. Now, if he had personal contact with the rabbi I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether he went to the synagogue on Saturday?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know. I really don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. You left him at the house when you left?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you left at approximately 12:30?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say something around that nature.
Mr. HUBERT. He would certainly not have gone to the rabbi then, to the synagogue, on Saturday morning.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know. I mean I couldn't answer that. I wouldn't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Maybe you can, or at least you can give us some facts. He was asleep when you awoke at 10:30, isn't that right?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but he was up. He was up when I left.
Mr. HUBERT. And you left at 12:30?
Mr. SENATOR. I am only assuming within an hour.
Mr. HUBERT. So it could have between 11:00.
Mr. SENATOR. 11:30, 12, 12:30. I can't say because actually, you know, when this period is going on, I am not watching clocks. I don't own one. I can't go by a timetable because I didn't have the time.

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Mr. HUBERT. Certainly, he didn't leave the house from the time he got up until you left.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I left first.
Mr. HUBERT. That is correct.
Mr. SENATOR. Now, what time he left I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. But he didn't leave the house from the time you got up until the time you left?
Mr. SENATOR. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, perhaps we can fix the time when you left a little better by going on and seeing where you went. I ask you where you went?
Mr. SENATOR. Saturday where did I go? Saturday I think I stopped down, I think my first stop was down at the coffee shop. I think I went down for coffee, and my whereabouts, I don't even know where I went that day because I don't work on Saturdays. I guess I probably just as well stood around. just where I went, I remember where I went Saturday evening, but I don't remember where I went Saturday afternoon. Just no particular place or anything unusual.
Mr. HUBERT. You do recall that your first stop in any case was the coffeeshop?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Which one was that?
Mr. SENATOR. I think it was Eatwell Coffee Shop that I went to.
Mr. HUBERT. You had sort of breakfast and coffee?
Mr. SENATOR. Coffee and. Maybe coffee and a doughnut or coffee and a bun or something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. You were driving the Volkswagen?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You were not on business?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say you have a distinct recollection of some event that night?
Mr. SENATOR. Of where I was?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Oh yes; because when I came home that night, I think it was around somewheres between 7 and 7:30, I think I come home that night, and I come home with some groceries that I wanted to make. So I made some groceries and----
Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack home at that time?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he was gone.
Mr. HUBERT. He was not there?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he wasn't there.
Mr. HUBERT. That was about 7:30?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say I think it was around 7:30. So I made the groceries and then I left some for him, and I ate and I was assuming that maybe he would be home by the time I was making the groceries. But he wasn't home, so after I ate I went out again.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been drinking that afternoon?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't remember. Possibly I may have had a beer or two. I just don't remember. I am not a heavy drinker. I am not a drunkard, mind you.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I didn't mean to infer that at all, but I was wondering why, it was that you couldn't give us any indication of where you went, whether it was one or several places between noon or 12:30 until 7:30 that night. I think you can remember some of the things, some of the places.
Mr. SENATOR. Well, let me see.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't come home until 7:30?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I was out.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you follow any usual Saturday afternoon routine?
Mr. SENATOR. No. There is nothing. There is no routine. Saturday, there is no routine.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't call on any customers?
Mr. SENATOR. No; nothing. Just out, that is all.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you riding around for 7 ½ hours?

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Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go?
Mr. SENATOR. This is what I am trying to think, where did I go. I don't remember if I called my lawyer friend or met my lawyer friend or not that day.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is your lawyer friend?
Mr. SENATOR. I have got--Jim Martin. I don't remember if I called him. Once in a while I'd have a beer with him.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don't know whether you had a beer with him, I suppose?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't remember. I just don't remember the routine of the day. There was nothing that I did in general.
Mr. HUBERT. You did go to some grocery store to pick up the groceries?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember which one that was?
Mr. SENATOR. Sir?
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember which grocery store it was?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I think I went to Safeway.
Mr. HUBERT. Safeway?
Mr. SENATOR. Safeway.
Mr. HUBERT. On what street?
Mr. SENATOR. That is on Jefferson.
Mr. HUBERT. Well now, does the recollection of that fact, which must have been what you did almost immediately before going home--let me put it this way. Was your trip to Safeway to pick up the groceries the thing that you did immediately before you went home?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So it would be safe to say, wouldn't it, that you went to Safeway around a half hour to an hour before you went home?
Mr. SENATOR. I probably had gone maybe around 6:30 or 7, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Does that help to refresh your memory as to where you had been just before you went to the grocery?
Mr. SENATOR. Is it possible to forget?
Mr. HUBERT. Why yes, of course, it is.
Mr. SENATOR. Mind you this is 5 months.
Mr. HUBERT. But it is my duty to explore the possibilities.
Mr. SENATOR. I know that. If I could think and help you out I would be happy to, if I knew. I just can't place, place to place, where I have been. I may have been out having a beer or I may have been out chewing the fat with some friend of mine. I just don't remember what I was doing that day.
Mr. HUBERT. It may be that if you think about it a bit more you can help us a little later on.
Mr. SENATOR. I could if I wanted to, I could have made up a fictitious story to you and say that I sat in the bar for 3 hours or I was out with some girl or something like that. He is writing all this down. But I am telling you the truth.
Mr. HUBERT. I don't want you to tell us something that is fictitious. If it is a fact that you do not remember, then that is the fact and that is all we want to know. I think that sometimes one's memory is refreshed, as it were, by events. If you can't remember it now, we will come back to it a little later and see if you can recollect what happened in this period of about 6 hours on that Saturday afternoon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, unless you want to pursue this further, let me ask him a question.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, go ahead.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated that you might have visited with Jim Martin. Is this someone that you see regularly?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Jim is an attorney down in Dallas, a very good friend of mine, who on occasions I will have a beer with. Now, possibly I may have had it and I just don't remember. I go to see him often, or I meet him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Jim single?
Mr. SENATOR. Pardon me?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is he a married man?

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Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he is a married man. He is the one who also was on the Ruby Case for a while.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are his offices located?
Mr. SENATOR. On Main Street. As a matter of fact he just moved recently. He was on Main Street, and he is still on Main Street, but the lower part of town in what they call the Lawyers' Building.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you accustomed to visiting at his home?
Mr. SENATOR. I go to his home once in a while, yes. I have eaten dinner at his home or I have went up there and cooked for him once in a while.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you known Mr. Martin?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say roughly around 2 or 3 years I guess, something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to meet him?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I met him through a friend of mine one day, if I remember right. I think we were having a cocktail one day in the Burgundy Room. I think this is how I met him. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Has he represented you in any legal matters?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is he a friend of Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. He knows Jack. I believe all the lawyers in Dallas know Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if you visited in the area where the President was shot, on Saturday?
Mr. SENATOR. What?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if you visited in the area where the President was shot?
Mr. SENATOR. Was I down there?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No. I drove by. I mean I didn't stop. I drove by there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any errands or chores or anything that you customarily do on Saturday?
Mr. SENATOR. No, nothing in particular, no. I will tell you Saturday I just don't like to work. I just don't like to do anything particular, you know. Of course, I would say that, of course, Saturday is a wash day. It is not that I wash every Saturday, you know, or launderette day. I do my own.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you do Jack's also?
Mr. SENATOR. No. Jack doesn't even do his own. He sends them out, but I do my own.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you do your laundry?
Mr. SENATOR. Downstairs in the apartment. There is a couple of washers, two or three washers, and a couple dryers right in the apartment. It is like these machines similar to the store like.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does Jack use those? Did Jack use those?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have some particular place he sent his laundry?
Mr. SENATOR. He takes it out and has somebody do it for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where that was?
Mr. SENATOR. I was there one time with him when he was picking up his laundry. If I am not mistaken, I think it was on the McKinney or Fitzhugh, Fitzhugh or McKinney. I think it was somewhere up in that neighborhood. But Jack, he takes his laundry and sends it to this place. He takes it over. But instead of him doing it, he has a girl do it for him, and they straighten it out for him when it dries up and all that there. Then he will come back and pick it up. If he don't pick it up one day he will pick it up the next.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He takes it over to this laundry?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The girl does it for him at the laundry?
Mr. SENATOR. She does it with the soap and powder and all that. They have girls over there, a couple colored girls.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This would ordinarily be a self-service Laundromat?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But there are people there so that if you don't want to serve yourself they will do it for you?

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Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is the nature of this place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. His brother Sam, wasn't he in the laundry business?
Mr. SENATOR. Sam fixes those machines. I think Sam was employed by somebody. I don't know who he was employed by, but he fixes these washers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But he doesn't have washaterias?
Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge; no. I think he is an employee.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This area that you are describing, is that in the general Oak Cliff area that you people lived in?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no. This is in town.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Downtown?
Mr. SENATOR. Not downtown but you have to go through downtown to go uptown.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What section would you call this section?
Mr. SENATOR. That area would be I would say sort of north--northwest part of town I think.
Mr. HUBERT. While you are on the laundry subject, wasn't there some equipment in the basement of the building you were in?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I said I did mine but he don't do his.
Mr. HUBERT. When you came home, as I understand it, it was about 7:30, and you fixed a meal for yourself. Before I pass for the moment from this period on Saturday afternoon, let me ask you this. You were interviewed I think by the FBI and by Elmer Moore of the Secret Service very shortly after these events, by the FBI, I believe, on Sunday the 24th?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. No; first the police had me, the local had me.
Mr. HUBERT. The local police?
Mr. SENATOR. Then from the local they put me into the FBI.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they question you at that time as to your activities during this period of 6 hours on Saturday afternoon between roughly 12 and 6 or 12:30 and 6:30?
Mr. SENATOR. No; they questioned me, I believe they questioned me from Friday.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell them at that time that you had no recollection of what you had done during this 6-hour period?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't remember what I told them. I don't know if I was asked that, if I can remember right. I believe the questions they asked me, if I remember right, is when was the next time I saw Jack that day, if I remember right, that when I left, what time did I leave that Saturday, and I believe when was the next time I saw him, if I am not mistaken, if that is the way it ran.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you give the police a written statement?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You signed a written statement for the police?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they made me sign a written statement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what time it was that the police questioned you on Sunday?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I'll tell you why I don't remember. When they grabbed me, they took me and shoved me into some little room all by myself, and I don't wear a watch because I am allergic to watchbands. I can't wear a watch. And I don't know how long I was in this little room.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that in the evening or the afternoon on Sunday?
Mr. SENATOR. That was the afternoon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And had you talked with Jack Ruby up to that time, between the time of the shooting and the time that you were questioned by the police?
Mr. SENATOR. The last time that I saw Jack Ruby is when he left Sunday morning. That is the last time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you didn't see him again on Sunday?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I saw him when they waltzed me by. When the police got through with me they waltzed me by to the FBI, that is when I saw him through a glass.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But never talked to him?
Mr. SENATOR. No; couldn't get near him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with his sister or with----
Mr. SENATOR. That day?

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Or with anybody else who had seen Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you were questioned?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I'll tell you why. When I got out, when I got through with this whole thing that night, it was already dark outside, and I for one had never seen the shooting on TV, and I still have never seen it to this day, the shooting on TV, and I never saw the runs because they had me there that late. I don't remember what time I got out that night, but I assume it was dark. It may have been around 7 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So between the time you left Jack Ruby back at the apartment on Sunday, and the time that the police first started to question you later on Sunday afternoon, you didn't see Jack Ruby in that interval?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At least to talk to?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Eva Grant?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Tom Howard?
Mr. SENATOR. Tom Howard?
Mr. HUBERT. Let's take a little recess at this point.
(Short recess.)
Mr. HUBERT. We will convene again after recess, with the same conditions and same understanding about the oath and so on.
Now I think you said you came back home at 7:30 on Saturday night and you had bought some groceries and Ruby was not there.
Mr. SENATOR. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. You fixed yourself something to eat, and I believe you said that you left.
Mr. SENATOR. No; first of all I was thinking that he might show up while I was----
Mr. HUBERT. You fixed enough I think you said for two people.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he come home before you left?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you leave?
Mr. SENATOR. I left about maybe around 8, 8:30. As I say, I got to----
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any phone calls prior to your leaving?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go?
Mr. SENATOR. From there I went downtown. I think I went to the Burgundy Room, if I am not mistaken, that night.
Mr. HUBERT. That is in the Adolphus Hotel?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and I met a friend of mine there, and we were feeling low. I was feeling low.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the name of the friend?
Mr. SENATOR. Bill Downey.
Mr. HUBERT. What is his occupation?
Mr. SENATOR. He is a traveling salesman who sells musical equipment and all the other stuff that goes with it.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. SENATOR. Let's see now, and Mike Barclay. He is an attorney.
Mr. HUBERT. The three of you were together?
Mr. SENATOR. Went out.
Mr. HUBERT. The three of you were together you say?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. We went out to a bar and we had a beer or two, everybody was low down and got disgusted, and they all wanted to go home including myself.
Mr. HUBERT. So you all did so?
Mr. SENATOR. So we all went home, and I think I got home about 10:30.

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Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack there then?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Jack was there. He had eaten, and he said he was going out. Now, where he went I don't know, but he said he was going out.
Mr. HUBERT, Would you describe his condition then?
Mr. SENATOR. His condition was in the same thing it was in the past.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it like it was in the morning?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He was in that same kind of condition.
Mr. HUBERT. He was no worse?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, it is hard to say how much worse it was. He didn't look good.
Mr. HUBERT. The reason I asked that question is because----
Mr. SENATOR. You know when you say "worse," I don't know how to put words together, you know, in expressions, the expression of an individual's face.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me show you what I mean. Perhaps you can help me when I tell you what I have in mind. You have told us earlier that you thought that his condition on Saturday morning was worse than it was on Friday night and early Saturday morning.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I think the expression you used, "the thing was getting at him," so that you formed the impression that the condition was worsening, isn't that correct? Is that a fair statement?
Mr. SENATOR. That is the way it looked; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now I ask you if you will give us a comparison.
Mr. SENATOR. I know what you are talking about, but I don't know how to compare these things, you know.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it worsening? Was it getting to him more? Did it seem to be getting to him more Saturday night as opposed to 12 hours earlier roughly Saturday morning?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say it was of the same nature or something like that. It wasn't good, because for me to try to express, and I don't know how to express a facial nature. It is just hard for me to put in words. If you take the complete facial expression and the eyes and all that, I am not a connoisseur at just being able to express these things, you know.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I am just asking you for another comparison because you had given us a previous one, and I thought that another comparison between another period, two others periods, would be useful if you could give it to us, and that is all. I gather from you that your general impression was that there had not been much change in his condition over what it was on Saturday morning.
Mr. SENATOR. I will say something in the same nature.
Mr. HUBERT. That it was of the same nature?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what the nature of the conversation was between you two that night?
Mr. SENATOR. No; because when I walked in, he was just about on his way out. I asked him if he ate. I told him I bought groceries. He said, "Well, I ate already." He ate.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after you arrived did he leave?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, God, within 5 minutes. It was just that short, that fast, and out he went. Now, I don't know where his visitation was. I don't know if he went to see his sister.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn't tell you where he was going?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Then or ever?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn't tell me at all where he was going.
Mr. HUBERT. He never did tell you later?
Mr. SENATOR. No; and I didn't ask him.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you don't know where?
Mr. SENATOR. No; because when I went home, you know, when I got home I went to bed. I was going to bed.
Mr. HUBERT. And you went to bed about 10:30?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say about half an hour later, maybe around 11.

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Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time he came in?
Mr. SENATOR. No; because I wasn't awake.
Mr. HUBERT. The next time you saw him?
Mr. SENATOR. Was Sunday morning.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you awaken on Sunday morning?
Mr. SENATOR. Sunday morning I assume it was somewhere around between 8 or 9, somewheres in that time. Just something in that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any way to fix it at all?
Mr. SENATOR. No; you see, when I was on the witness stand with Mr. Bill Alexander, now he tried to make me pinpoint it right down to the minute. It is highly impossible. If you are not watching a clock and don't have one, how can you pinpoint these things? How can you really do it? How is it possible? How can you pinpoint time when you are not watching it?
Mr. HUBERT. In any case what you are saying, your best estimate is that it was----
Mr. SENATOR. I have to estimate it. Now, as I say when I estimate it, I can be 15 minutes, a half hour or maybe an hour off on time.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you told us earlier that when you went to bed as early as 11 o'clock you usually woke up quite early.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this is why I say I probably woke up maybe around 8 or 9 that morning.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Ruby---
Mr. SENATOR. Of course, I read in bed, you know. I read in bed.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Ruby there when you woke up, or not?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he was sleeping.
Mr. HUBERT. When did he waken?
Mr. SENATOR. Ruby must have woke up I assume it probably would have been maybe--of course, I have to guess again--I would assume somewheres around between 9 and 9:30.
Mr. HUBERT. Why don't we put it in terms of how much after you did Ruby wake up. In other words, no matter what time you awoke, can you tell us how long after he awakened?
Mr. SENATOR. It could be maybe three-quarters of an hour or an hour. I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your first distinct recollection of him that morning?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, the moment he got up he went to the bathroom, which is normal for him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to him then?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I did. Of course, we turned on the TV. He had the TV going. He turned it on to see what the latest news was. Then he went to the bathroom. Of course, then he washed, and he went in and made his own breakfast. I only had coffee. He made himself a couple of scrambled eggs and coffee for himself, and he still had this look which didn't look good.
Mr. HUBERT. Again I want to ask you, can you give us a comparison between the look that he had that morning, which you just described, as opposed to what it was on other occasions in the sense of whether it was growing worse or not?
Mr. SENATOR. He looked a little worse this day here. But if you ask me how to break it down, how he looks worse, how can I express it? The look in his eyes?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, is that one of the things?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is the way it seems.
Mr. HUBERT. The way he talked or what he said?
Mr. SENATOR. The way he talked. He was even mumbling, which I didn't understand. And right after breakfast he got dressed. Then after he got dressed he was pacing the floor from the living room to the bedroom, from the bedroom to the living room, and his lips were going. What he was jabbering I don't know. But he was really pacing. What he was thinking about----
Mr. HUBERT. That was after he was dressed?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now, what he was thinking about, I don't know what he was thinking about. But he did, which I forgot to tell you, he did get that call from this Little Lynn from Western Union.

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Mr. HUBERT. You remember the call?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you answer the phone?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he had already been up.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you know it was Little Lynn?
Mr. SENATOR. I could hear him say. I heard him say Lynn, Western Union. I heard him mention Western Union. I heard about the money and that he was sending it to Fort Worth. She needed $25 for rent.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you that?
Mr. SENATOR. I heard him mention $25 over the phone.
Mr. HUBERT. How did he mention it, that he would send $25?
Mr. SENATOR. He would send $25 to her by Western Union.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention that it was for rent?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he told me after it was for rent.
MR. HUBERT. He told you?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't hear Little Lynn ask for it?
Mr. SENATOR. I couldn't hear it.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course not.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
MR. HUBERT. Therefore he must have told you.
Mr. SENATOR. He said she called, and, of course, I knew it was Lynn because I knew----
Mr. HUBERT. You knew who she was?
Mr. SENATOR. Sure.
Mr. HUBERT. But after he hung up, he told you that she needed $25 for rent?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention that she had called the night before?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not know that at the time?
Mr. SENATOR. If she did I don't know. This I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time that call was?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know. It could have been anywheres between 9:30, I am not sure, maybe 10. I am not sure what time it was. See now----
Mr. HUBERT. Let's get at it this way.
Mr. SENATOR. Now you are placing me from the time I woke up to the time Jack woke up, but I say with all these things I still have to guess the times.
Mr. HUBERT. That is why I am going to put it to you this way. The time of the call is known, and that is why I would like you to relate events backwards from that time, you see.
Mr. SENATOR. I know that I was off on the time because----
Mr. HUBERT. No; I am not trying to get you off. I am trying to get the facts, so let's approach it this way. How long before the Little Lynn call would you estimate it was that Jack woke up?
Mr. SENATOR. I couldn't estimate the time, but I don't think he was up too long.
Mr. HUBERT. You say he had gone to the bathroom and that he had cooked his breakfast and that he had gotten dressed?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he wasn't dressed at the time Little Lynn called.
Mr. HUBERT. He was not dressed at the time?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he was still in his shorts. I think he was still in his shorts.
Mr. HUBERT. If you could help us on this it would be valuable for us to know about how long prior to the Little Lynn call did Jack actually get up. If you want to break that into segments as to how long it was before he started breakfast, and so forth, well, do that too. It may be helpful to you and it would be to us. I can help you if you want along these lines. Did the Little Lynn call come after he had finished his breakfast?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I think that call came in before he had breakfast. I think it did. I think it was before breakfast. I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. He answered the phone as I understand it?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When he got up he went to the bathroom?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

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Mr. HUBERT. Did the call come while he was in the bathroom?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't think so.
Mr. HUBERT. After he left the bathroom he went to fix breakfast as I understand it.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know if the call came in before or after he went to the bathroom. It was one of the two. I don't know which. As I say, I would have to twist it.
Mr. HUBERT. I don't want you to twist it or to guess.
Mr. SENATOR. I have to guess. I have got to guess.
Mr. HUBERT. You have got to give your best estimation.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know. If I don't know I can't answer it because I have got to guess on this. You put me to guesswork.
Mr. HUBERT. No; we don't want to have you guess. We want your best estimation of the passage of time. If you don't know, we certainly don't want you to guess. But you were there and we weren't. Therefore, we would like to know if you know. We don't want you to guess.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know. I don't know the times.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me give you another approach to assist you on this. You said that you might have awakened anywhere from 8 to 9 yourself, is that correct?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that it was as long as 1 hour after you awoke that the call came from Little Lynn?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't think so. You know this is very complicated when you try to make a timepiece out of this. It really is. I mean especially if you are not watching the time and don't know the time. It is just a complicated thing trying to place a time together.
Mr. HUBERT. That is true, but on the other hand when we have a fixed time, sometimes we can relate events to that time in terms of hours and half hours and so forth. That is what I am asking you to do now.
Mr. SENATOR. You see when you are relating all three there, in the relation of all three here from the time I got up to the time Jack got up to the time he had his breakfast, from the time that Little Lynn called I would be jamming all these things into maybe a half hour to an hour in differences, and they would all almost clog together because I would have to guess at all these, because, mind you, this wasn't a great expanse of hours. This is why I say I will be guessing and have to be wrong. Mind you from the time that I wake up at 8 o'clock in the morning, supposedly around 8 or maybe it was 8:30 or 9, I have to have the answers, supposed to have the answers for what time I woke up, what time Jack got up, Little Lynn in the short span of hours, and it is hard to break these things down and be accurate.
Mr. HUBERT. We understand that, and the purpose is to find out if it is possible to know, and if your answer to us is that you can't tell us, we don't want you to guess.
Mr. SENATOR I can't tell you. The reason it is hard to tell you, because I would have to guess at all these and I have no hours. It was such a short span of hours, I would probably assume this whole thing would consummate maybe in what, approximately 2 hours, whatever it may be, maybe 2 ½ hours, I don't know. Now, you know you have got to jam hours in for these three things to fit, and I can't jam them together to make them fit.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's see if we can't fix sequence of events instead of trying to fix hours. You got up first.
Mr. SENATOR Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And Jack got up next.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then another fixed event is the time that he went to the toilet. That came next, didn't it? He went to the bathroom?
Mr. SENATOR Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then he fixed himself some breakfast.
Mr. SENATOR Now you have asked me if he fixed breakfast first or the telephone call, I mean her call.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

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Mr. SENATOR. I don't remember which came first. Now I am guessing that the call came first. I am not sure. I can't relate to be sure right now.
Mr. HUBERT. As to the sequence of those two events, we now know what your recollection is, and that is that it could have been before or it could have been after.
Mr. SENATOR. I just don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. But in any event, he certainly dressed after he got the call, is that correct?
Mr. SENATOR. And after breakfast.
Mr. HUBERT. And after breakfast?
Mr. SENATOR Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then after he dressed he paced about some?
Mr. SENATOR Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, at least we have the sequence of events so far as we are able to put them together.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. We also know, you see, Mr. Senator, that as to one sequence, you don't know. I am not critical of you because you don't know, but we weren't aware that you didn't know until right now.
Mr. SENATOR. As I say, I mean when you take these four incidents and try to, you know, try to jam them all into this short span of hours, I just can't break it down and be right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now let's get to this. Was Jack normally a fast dresser or would you care to estimate whether it took him----
Mr. SENATOR. No; Jack was never a fast dresser or never a fast washer. He took his time. In other words, if I wanted to compare us, I could dress five times as fast as he could or shave or anything else that much quicker than he could.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that normally it took him a half hour to get dressed and shaved?
Mr. SENATOR. A half hour to get dressed and shaved? I would probably assume it would take something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. And do you think it took him that long on this morning?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know if it took him that long.
Mr. HUBERT. But in any case he did dress and you would think that that took him a half an hour?
Mr. SENATOR. I would only have to guess. I can't say.
Mr. HUBERT. Normally it would have?
Mr. SENATOR. I couldn't assume the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Normally it would take him a half hour?
Mr. SENATOR. I would so surmise that it would.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did this pacing go on after he got dressed? It may have been a matter of only a couple of minutes, but if it was more than that, I think you would know it. I think if it was a half hour you would know it.
Mr. SENATOR. I would say that he paced back and forth 5 or 10 minutes. I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Was it at that point that he left?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything upon leaving?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he say?
Mr. SENATOR. He said, "George, I am taking the dog down to the club."
Mr. HUBERT. Anything else?
Mr. SENATOR. That was it, and out he went.
Mr. HUBERT. He was fully dressed?
Mr. SENATOR He was fully dressed.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you describe how he was dressed?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, he wore a hat, wore a suit and a shirt and tie.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say, when he was coming back?
Mr. SENATOR. No; that is the only words he said when he walked out.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him speak to Elnora Pitts on Sunday morning over the telephone?

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Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn't.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who Elnora Pitts is?
Mr. SENATOR. It is a colored maid. No; I have heard that incident before, but I don't remember this at all. I just don't remember if he did or not. I can't, in other words, I can't refresh my mind whatsoever that Elnora called. Now, I could be wrong on this, but my mind is not fresh for that long.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been possible that you were in a part of the house or outside the house maybe?
Mr. SENATOR No; I wasn't out.
Mr. HUBERT. You never left the house?
Mr. SENATOR. I was in my shorts all the while, unless I--no, I don't even know. Maybe I could have been in the bathroom. I am not even sure.
Mr. HUBERT. But in any case you have no recollection of Elnora calling?
Mr. SENATOR. I do not remember at all.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it her custom to call when she was coming out there?
Mr. SENATOR. I think he--I don't know, but I know that he has driven by to tell her to come up and clean the apartment sometimes or something of that nature. Now, I know he did that one time, but I don't know if it is his custom to have her call or not. Maybe it had been, maybe it hadn't been. I don't know on that.
Mr. HUBERT. I know I am asking you for another estimate, but I would like to know what your view of it is. That is how long after Karen Bennett called did Jack leave the house?
Mr. SENATOR Who? Oh, Little Lynn?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR Well, Jack was still in his shorts then when she called.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes?
Mr. SENATOR. This I do remember.
Mr. HUBERT. He had to dress?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But you are not sure whether he had fixed breakfast or not?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know which came first, if she called or he fixed breakfast first.
Mr. HUBERT. Leaving those aside, all I was asking was whether or not you could give us an estimate of the time from when Little Lynn called until he told you "I am leaving and I am going out and take this dog to the club." Have you any idea at all? If you don't, tell us.
Mr. SENATOR. Wait, wait, what time she called?
Mr. HUBERT. No; the time interval between when she called and when he left.
Mr. SENATOR I will make a wild guess. I would say it was at least three quarters, it must have been about three quarters of an hour.
Mr. HUBERT. On what do you base it?
Mr. SENATOR. I am just guessing. I can't base it on anything. I am only guessing.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it quite guessing? You knew he had to dress.
Mr. SENATOR. Sure you have got to dress.
Mr. HUBERT. So that took up some time.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; had to wash.
Mr. HUBERT. And you also say that he paced up and down for some little interval of time.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So when you characterize it as a wild guess----
Mr. SENATOR. I have got to guess.
Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if it is a guess so much as it is a putting together of these little segments of time and estimating what each would take.
Mr. SENATOR. I am saying I would have to guess. I would have to guess this.
Mr. HUBERT. When you said three quarters of an hour, wasn't it really result of your thinking of how much time would be occupied to do these segments of activity such as dressing and pacing up and down and so forth,

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and you added them up and came to about three quarters of an hour; wasn't that your mental processes rather than a wild guess?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no, no. You asked me a question and I said I would have to guess it. You know it is really amazing to put hours together. Mind you, 5 months have elapsed already, and to try to put these hours together you have got to fluctuate. How can you be sure?
Mr. HUBERT. That is true, but----
Mr. SENATOR You have got to fluctuate. It is strictly all guess work.
Mr. HUBERT. That is true, but your attention was directed specifically to these time lapses, not 5 months ago, but on that very day.
Mr. SENATOR They were all guess work, they were all supposedly. I had to give guess works.
Mr. HUBERT What you are saying now is that the times that you estimated then were guess works even on that very day as to the times on that very day ? You were examined, weren't you?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. About 3, 4, or 5 o'clock in the evening?
Mr. SENATOR. And I have always said I would have to guess the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Even as to that day you would have to guess the time?
Mr. SENATOR. That Sunday?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I always have to guess.
Mr. HUBERT. On Sunday you said you had to guess the time as to the earlier part of the day?
Mr. SENATOR. I had to guess the time Saturday, I had to guess the time Sunday when he woke me up. I was only guessing it was around 3 o'clock in the morning.
Mr. HUBERT. You see the reason why I am bringing that to your attention is that you stated a moment ago that it is difficult for you to recall these things after 5 months. But I was inviting your attention to the fact that your memory had been directed to these intervals of time for the first time not today, but on that very day, and your answer to me is that even on that day you were guessing as to the intervals of the earlier part of the day; is that correct?
Mr. SENATOR. Of times?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Of times.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a fair statement?
Mr. SENATOR. If a man doesn't see a clock, or doesn't see a watch, what else can he do? What else can you go by?
Mr. HUBERT. All I am saying is that even on the 24th when the police and the FBI asked you about these segments of time on that same day, your statement to us is that even then you were largely guessing?
Mr. SENATOR. I would have to guess the approximate times. If you can tell me if you don't see a clock or a watch, how do you tell?
Mr. HUBERT. You might be able to tell by remembering what TV program was going on at the time. Do you, at any particular time?
Mr. SENATOR. At that time I believe it was something about the late President, but I don't just recall what it was, but I believe it was----
Mr. HUBERT. Practically everything that day was. You don't remember any specific part?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't; no. I don't remember any specific part.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack look at it, too? I think you said he did. Did he make a particular comment as to a particular part then being shown?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was the last time you saw Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me get this straight. Were you awake, did you wake up on Sunday morning before Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. Sunday morning? Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have an actual recollection of that, or are you stating this because it was almost always your practice that you did wake up before Jack?

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Mr. SENATOR. I always--I would say 95 percent of the time I was up before him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But on this day do you have any recollection?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I know. He was asleep because when I got up he was still in bed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got up, as I understand; you made some breakfast for yourself?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn't
Mr. GRIFFIN. You did not?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I had coffee. I made coffee.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Coffee?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In this period between the time you got up and the time that Jack left the apartment, did you remain in the apartment the entire period?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I was still in my shorts when he left the apartment.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you visited by anybody?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That day?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or that morning?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know which are the neighbors in that apartment? Let me start over again? You lived at that South Ewing address on that very same floor right next to Jack for 11 months, approximately?
Mr. SENATOR Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before this Sunday we are talking about. Now, did you know any of the other people who lived in the apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. Just to say hello, but that is about as far as it went.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Sidney Evans?
Mr. SENATOR. Sidney Evans?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know. If I did, I don't know them by name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about a man named Malcolm Slaughter?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. They work for the Red Ball Freight Company or Motor Express, truck drivers apparently.
Mr. SENATOR. Did they live there?
Mr. GRIFFIN. They were supposed to; yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know. If I did, I don't know them by name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know the people who lived across the hall from you?
Mr. SENATOR When you say across the hall, it was a U. That was just by the U shape.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A balcony sort of a situation?
Mr. SENATOR. A balcony, but it was a U. In other words, when I walked out of my door, if I kept walking and went over the bannister I would hit the ground. There was nobody facing me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about on either side?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack was on one side. Then there were some girls on the other side. The next apartment over there were three girls, something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That U that you are talking about, is it sort of a stairwell, is that it? The U is on one floor of the stairwell?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And there were three suites on the landing that you people were on? There was the old suite that you occupied, Jack's suite which you were living in on the 24th, and the suite occupied by some girls?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; then it went down further. That wasn't the end of the strip.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There was a hallway, wasn't there?
Mr. SENATOR. No; there was a balcony.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A balcony?
Mr. SENATOR. A railing--I mean you are outdoors. There is nothing concealed. It was just a railing and you are looking outdoors. There is nothing concealed. It was just a railing and you are looking outdoors.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. And you opened out onto this balcony?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Along this balcony, how many other suites were there along that balcony?
Mr. SENATOR. Running our way, you have got to transplant in your mind--in other words, say that I am facing my door right now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. And the balcony goes U-shaped like this. Do you follow me? In other words, this is all space out here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Everything in front of you is space?
Mr. SENATOR. Space. Now right past mine, if you turn to the right of mine, then you walk down another balcony. See, there are balconies on this side plus balconies this way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now along this same level that you were on, and following the whole set of balconies around on the same level, how many different----
Mr. SENATOR. The entire level.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. How many different?
Mr. SENATOR. This is another guesswork. I would say, I would sort of estimate around a dozen places, a dozen apartments.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now these dozen different apartments, was there a single stairway that led up to that level, or was there more than one stairway?
Mr. SENATOR. No; there was two stairways. There was one from the front, there was one level that come up South Ewing. In other words, you drive around through the back where you park your cars and come up this way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Another stairway?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on this level how many of those dozen suites there perhaps--how many of those people did you know?
Mr. SENATOR. I didn't know any. I never had a conversation with any of them. Now I said hello to the girls next door, but I never talked to them, never had a conversation with them. Of course, they were young girls, not of my category. And the people on the sides, I didn't know any of them. In other words, anybody who walked in, you know, you would say hello whether you knew them or not. But there wasn't a conversation.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, I want to carry this on a little bit from what happened after Jack left the apartment.
Mr. HUBERT. I promised him that we would stop at 5 because he expressed the fact that he was somewhat fatigued. He has been up since 2:30. I think rather than get into another segment we might adjourn for the day. You were turning to another subject?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I was going to take him up to the time when he left the apartment.
Mr. HUBERT. That I think would be another subject.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, the interval between when Jack left and----
Mr. HUBERT. We have it now to the point where Jack has left the apartment, and I think that is a good stopping point. It is a quarter past 5 and I had promised we would stop at 5.
Mr. SENATOR. I am not mad at you.


TESTIMONY OF GEORGE SENATOR RESUMED

The testimony of George Senator was taken at 8:35 a.m., on April 22, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE. Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Senator, you will understand that this is a continuation of the deposition which was begun yesterday, and that Mr. Griffin and I, who are examining you, are doing so under the same authority and under the same conditions as were indicated to you at the beginning of the deposition yesterday.

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Likewise, I take it that you understand, unless I hear to the contrary that you are still under the same oath which you took at the commencement of the testimony on yesterday; is that correct?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the end of the session on yesterday we reached the point where on Sunday, November 24, you had left your apartment or you were leaving your apartment, as I recall it. Your testimony was that Mr. Ruby had already left. I think you fixed, but just for the purpose of continuity at the moment, would you now try to fix the approximate time at which he left?
Mr. SENATOR. You mean when I left?
Mr. HUBERT. No ; when he left.
Mr. SENATOR. To me, I thought it was somewheres between 10:15 and l0:30. Of course, I found out hereafter in the courtroom that I was wrong, but this at that time was the approximate figure that I had that he left.
Mr. HUBERT. You told us yesterday that whatever time it was, your thought was that it was approximately three-quarters of an hour after he received the call from Little Lynn?
Mr. SENATOR. No. At the time he left--in my courtroom statement there I fixed the time at approximately 10:15 or 10:30. That is where I thought he had left around that time.
Mr. HUBERT. I ask you now to fix it not in point of clock time but in point of how many hours or minutes it was, or parts of hours it was, after the long distance call from Little Lynn in which you understood that she asked for $25.
Mr. SENATOR. I would have to say it would probably be approximately somewhere, I imagine somewhere between three-quarters to an hour. Now this is about as close as I can think of it.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you base that upon two considerations, at least that you stated to us yesterday. That he was not yet dressed.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. When Little Lynn called?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And that he got dressed and cleaned up, washed up?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And then spent some short, relatively short period of time pacing around, as you said?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Before leaving. And that you estimated yesterday I think it was about three-quarters of an hour.
Mr. SENATOR. Three-quarters of an hour. I mean this is just an estimation.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when he left he told you he was taking the dog Sheba down to the club?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And he made no other comment?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say what time he was coming back?
Mr. SENATOR. No; there was no mention of anything at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what did you do next? How long did you stay in the apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. After he left I'm still sitting around in my shorts yet. I'm not dressed or not washed or anything outside of having a cup of coffee. I had coffee.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have TV on?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I'll tell you, after he left I was reading the Sunday paper.
Mr. HUBERT. And you cut off the TV?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I didn't have the TV going. I was just reading. I read the paper, and from there I washed, shaved, got dressed, and took a ride downtown, and as I say, this place, the Eatwell----
Mr. HUBERT. How long after Ruby left did you leave?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say it was about three-quarters of an hour, I guess, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you went directly to the Eatwell?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You used your Volkswagen, I think you said?

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Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you park, do you remember?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I parked right by the Eatwell.
Mr. HUBERT. There is a parking lot there?
Mr. SENATOR. No; it is right on the street. You know Sunday there is no difficulty.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, then take it from there. Tell us what happened.
Mr. SENATOR. So I went in there. I sat down there. Now, this is the place that I go every morning, you know, rather Sunday or Monday because I don't like to sit indoors. So I went there and had a cup of coffee. Then the first thing--then I had another cup of coffee. Now, on my second cup of coffee I heard the girl, the waitress--now where she got her information from I don't know. It had to be either telephone or radio, I don't know which. Maybe they had the radio on.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice any kind of a radio of any type in the restaurant?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they usually have any?
Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, what happened?
Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge. The first time she said she heard that somebody shot Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. Was she speaking to you?
Mr. SENATOR. No; no, it was loud; but it happened to be she was near me.
Mr. HUBERT. There were other people in the place?
Mr. SENATOR. Not a lot. There were others you know, the usual morning Sunday business in the restaurant is sort of minute. So what I did when I heard that, I called up the lawyer. I was going to give him the news. I figured he would probably be sitting home, you know, Jim Martin, who happens to be a friend of mine. But when I called him. I spoke to his daughter and she told me her dad and mother were in church. Dad would be home in half an hour. I said all right, maybe I'll call him back.
A short while later, the same girl, the same waitress hollered out that the man--she wasn't pronouncing the name right, the Carouse1 Club, but I sort of got the drift of the name and she hollered Jack Ruby killed Oswald. This is what she come up with later.
Mr. HUBERT. How much later?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say about 5 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. But it was after you had called Martin?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; after I called Martin.
Mr. HUBERT. You called Martin right away?
Mr. SENATOR, Yes; I was going to tell him that. I didn't think he would be--of course, I didn't know he was going to church or anything.
Mr. HUBERT. He is a close friend of yours?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He is an attorney there; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, then?
Mr. SENATOR. Then when I heard that again, then I went up to see him. Of course, I froze in that chair there. I said my God, I didn't know what in the world to think. Then I went up there and I no sooner got there, he had just got there, I don't know, I think a moment or two before me. His wife and daughter had just come out of church.
Mr. HUBERT. You went to his home, you mean?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I went to his house. I told Jim and he said, "I heard already. I saw it on TV."
Mr. HUBERT. He was already at his house, you said?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he was home already.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after your phone call to him do you suppose you got to his house?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, he lived quite a ways. I would probably say it was about a 20-minute ride.
Mr. HUBERT. You left the Eatwell just as soon as the girl announced that the man who had shot Oswald was Jack Ruby?

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Mr. SENATOR. I finished my coffee. I had about a half a cup left, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not attempt to call Martin again?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn't call him. I just went direct. I figured if he wasn't home I'd wait for him.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your reason for wanting to see Martin?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, after all, this was my roommate. No particular reason. I happened to know he was a lawyer.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to him as a lawyer or as a friend?
Mr. SENATOR. As a friend, as a friend. So I went up there and said, "Jim, what in the world are we going to do?"
Mr. HUBERT. I take it from what you said a moment ago, "After all, he was my roommate", that you felt some concern for yourself.
Mr. SENATOR. I'll tell you how I felt. I knew after this had happened, I thought it was best that I volunteered than somebody come after me.
Mr. HUBERT. You thought that somebody would be coming after you?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, eventually they would have to. Eventually somebody would have to be coming after me. After all, I was his roommate.
Mr. HUBERT. I assume you were going to see Martin really to seek his advice as a lawyer as well as a friend?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; what to do. What should I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that true of the phone call as well?
Mr. SENATOR. Sir?
Mr. HUBERT. Was that motivation true of the phone call to Martin as well?
Mr. SENATOR. No. The first call, I was just going to tell him that I heard that Oswald was shot, which the girl told me. But on the second time--I didn't----
Mr. HUBERT. You realized your position at that time as being his roommate and that gave you concern because you thought that the police might be picking you up?
Mr. SENATOR. Sure.
Mr. HUBERT. And you thought you had better have the advice of a lawyer?
Mr. SENATOR. To ask him what to do. Should I go down there or what?
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do in fact?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, we went down there. We went down there and, of course, we had a tough time getting in. When we got down the place was just jammed.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you at Martin's house, speaking to him?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say maybe 5 minutes, maybe 10 minutes something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. And did you in effect ask him what you should do?
Mr. SENATOR. I asked him what I should do and I thought it would be best to go down. He thought so, too.
Mr. HUBERT. It was your suggestion that it would be best to go down, or his.
Mr. SENATOR. I think it was a combination of both.
Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, within about 5 minutes the decision had been made?
Mr. SENATOR. 5 or 10, something like that. I'm not sure of the exact time.
Mr. HUBERT. The decision had been made to go down to the police department. Now, what was the purpose of going down there?
Mr. SENATOR. I went down there, I thought it would be best if I go down there than to be picked up, because after all, I'm his roommate and I know they are going to eventually pick me up, because I was living with him.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the idea was that you were going to go down there and say, "Now look, I'm George Senator. I was a roommate of Jack Ruby's and do you have anything to ask of me?" That was it?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say it was in the nature of that; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Incidentally, a moment ago you said that you were sleeping with Jack Ruby, and in some circles sleeping with someone is----
Mr. SENATOR. I said I was what?
Mr. HUBERT. You were sleeping with Jack Ruby.
Mr. SENATOR. I was sleeping with him?

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Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that.
Mr. SENATOR. I never said that, never.
Mr. HUBERT. I misunderstood you then.
Mr. SENATOR. You sure did.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not mean----
Mr. SENATOR. You sure did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did I hear that right?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I did not catch it.
Mr. SENATOR. You sure did.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, if I did hear that I was wrong about that?
Mr. SENATOR. You definitely were wrong. You definitely were wrong. I don't even remember this incident being said.
Mr. HUBERT. That is all right I just wanted to get it clear, because some people might misunderstand the phrase, and I would not want that to be misunderstood if it were not true.
Mr. SENATOR. It definitely isn't.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. So when you got there, what happened?
Mr. SENATOR. The place was mobbed, and, of course, I believe there were a couple of police attendants by the elevator as we got off.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go, in fact?
Mr. SENATOR. Actually, I didn't know where to go. We went upstairs.
Mr. HUBERT. What entrance, do you remember?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know. I guess the front entrance, we went up.
Mr. HUBERT. You went to the Chief of Police office, or what office?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know what office I was at.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whom you reported to or whom you were with?
Mr. SENATOR. First we were mobbed. I told these people, these two policemen, whoever they were I don't know, I told them who I was.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were they stationed?
Mr. SENATOR. They were right by the elevator as you got off.
Mr. HUBERT. As you got off on one of the upper floors?
Mr. SENATOR. One of the floors. I don't remember what floor it was on.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you were not mobbed, as you put it, or you did not speak to anybody as you came into the building?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. On the ground floor?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. But as you got off, whatever floor it was, two policemen stopped you; is that the idea?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I was with Jim Martin.
Mr. HUBERT. And when they stopped you, they asked your name I suppose?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you told them?
Mr. SENATOR. Told them who I was. And then, you know, the place was mobbed and there was a bunch, whoever these people were, reporters or whatever, there were some of them there. They happened to overhear it, and they mobbed me. They mobbed me.
Then eventually two great big policemen came over and one grabbed me on one side of the arm, you know, they looked like giants to me, and one on the other side and they took me into this room. Remember I told you they put me into a little sort of solitary room.
Mr. HUBERT. That is on the same floor?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. And I don't remember how long. I mean I had no way of knowing time that I was in there in this room there waiting for somebody who was going to--they said to wait there, I don't know. They kept me in this room. Then somebody finally approached me. They wanted a statement.
Mr. HUBERT. You got there, I suppose, about 20 or 30 minutes after leaving Martin's house?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say something like that, between 20 and 30 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were, almost immediately after getting off on one of the upper floors of the building, mobbed by the press group and taken by these two policemen?

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Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And put into a room on the same floor?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And then was Mr. Martin with you?
Mr. SENATOR. He was with me, but he never, you know, when they took me to this room they wouldn't let him in.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask to go in or to remain with you?
Mr. SENATOR. He says "I'm his lawyer"; he was my lawyer. But we still were separated.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask that he be allowed to remain with you?
Mr. SENATOR. He wanted to get in.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you remember whether he actually asked to get in with you?
Mr. SENATOR. It seemed like he wanted to get in. I mean I don't remember the exact words that he said, because they wouldn't let him in, so apparently he was trying to get in too.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether you were placed under arrest?
Mr. SENATOR. No, never placed under arrest.
Mr. HUBERT. When you were escorted to this room and sat down, was the door locked?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you told to remain there?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there any guards on the door?
Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge. I don't think so.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you handcuffed?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say you don't know how long you remained there?
Mr. SENATOR. I couldn't tell. This was a little tiny room. It looked like where they keep some inventory books--not books, probably paper goods or something like that. It was a very small room.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you hear what was going on outside the room?
Mr. SENATOR. No, couldn't hear a thing.
Mr. HUBERT. Did the room have any windows in it?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was the light on?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. It was very small. It was a very small room. As I say, it must be a room like they keep paper goods, things of that nature, or something like that in there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did the police search you or frisk you?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. They did not take anything away from you?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I wasn't under arrest at all.
Mr. HUBERT. And what was the next thing that happened?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, finally, I don't remember this man's name, you may have a note of it, I assume he was a detective. He was in plain clothes. He questioned me.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he question you in that same room, or take you outside?
Mr. SENATOR. No, he questioned me in that room.
Mr. HUBERT. Just one man?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't remember his name?
Mr. SENATOR. No, I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he connected with the Federal Government or the State government?
Mr. SENATOR. I assumed he was local.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you found out since who he was?
Mr. SENATOR. No, I didn't. I think he must have been a detective of some nature. I mean I don't know what his classification was, because all I know is, he was in plain clothes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of his inquiry?

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Mr. SENATOR. It was, you know, what happened from the time of the shooting up until the present time. That was the inquiry.
Mr. HUBERT. The time of the President's shooting?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, from the President to----
Mr. HUBERT. Did he more or less ask you to go over and to account for your time during that period?
Mr. SENATOR. You mean where I was?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR Yes, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Am I right then in saying that his inquiry was to ask you what you had been doing since the President had been shot and what Ruby had been doing too, I suppose?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Both of you?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He asked you concerning the events in your life during the afternoon of Friday, November 22?
Mr. SENATOR. I believe that is how it started.
Mr. HUBERT. And on the night of the 22d and the early morning of the 23d?
Mr. SENATOR. There is only one thing that slipped my mind to tell him; and that was the paper issue, the newspaper issue and the billboard, "Impeach Earl Warren". That was the only thing I forgot to tell him that slipped my mind.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him that you had gotten up, that Jack had wakened you early in the morning and had asked you to go out with him?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know if he questioned me on that or not. I don't remember if he did or not on that. I don't remember if he did on that.
Mr. HUBERT. But if he did----
Mr. SENATOR. But I had been in a pretty shaky mood that day, most naturally nervous.
Mr. HUBERT. But your point is that if he did ask you about whether you had gone out with Ruby in the early hours of the morning, you did not tell him about the concern of Ruby over the Bernard Weissman ad, nor did you tell him about taking the pictures of the Earl Warren poster?
Mr. SENATOR. No, I didn't tell him that.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what was your reason for not?
Mr. SENATOR. No particular reason.
As a matter of fact, I'm sorry that I--I should have told him. If I thought about it I should have told him that because I think this was a benefactor for Jack Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say that the reason why you did not mention these two episodes was forgetfulness?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
I was a pretty shaken boy. I'm not used to something like this. This is something that will shake you up.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it that you were shaken up and thought it best not to mention anything about it, or that you actually forgot?
Mr. SENATOR. Just forgot.
Mr. HUBERT. And I assume that that officer then carried you through the events of Saturday morning after you got up and Saturday afternoon and Saturday night and Sunday morning, is that not so?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And at that time did you tell him what you had done on Saturday afternoon?
Mr. SENATOR. No, because I didn't--I don't think I did because I don't know if I was questioned on that. As a matter of fact, to the best of my knowledge I don't think I was questioned at any time what I did on Saturday afternoon, to the best of my knowledge that I can think of.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean they questioned you about what you did on Friday night and Saturday morning?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And Sunday morning, but they omitted Saturday afternoon?

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Mr. SENATOR The best that I can recollect, it was more important of the events of when I had seen Jack, and the times that he got home and when I got home.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him concerning all of those matters approximately as you have told us to date?
Mr. SENATOR. You mean from the events of Saturday?
Mr. HUBERT. Friday, Saturday and Sunday up to the point we have reached in this deposition.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, but you are more thorough than they are.
Mr. HUBERT. How long do you suppose that interview with the police officer lasted?
Mr. SENATOR. I have no idea.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened next?
Mr. SENATOR. From there he took me to the FBI on the same floor in another room, and his story was about the same.
Of course, if I remember right, I think he goes back like you started, you know, my name----
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, the FBI examination of you?
Mr. SENATOR I don't remember his name. Yes, the FBI man. And if I recall right, I think he asked me, you know, my name, how old I was, you know, like you started off.
Mr. HUBERT. He went into details as it were?
Mr. SENATOR. Pardon me?
Mr. HUBERT. He went into more detail?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; because the details in other words, he started from where I came from, my name and how old I was and things of that nature, like you did.
Mr. HUBERT. And I think you said that his examination was thorough as it were.
Mr. SENATOR. Well, there was more to it.
Mr. HUBERT. In what way? Did he ask you for more details?
Mr. SENATOR Well, he went into my personal life, you know, like you started off.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that his examination of you was along the same lines as mine has been?
Mr. SENATOR. No; because well, in certain parts I would say, but I think yours are more meticulous--is that the proper word--than his. In other words, yours are more thorough.
Mr. HUBERT. But he asked you to account for your time?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you told him about going out in the morning with Jack, having been awakened by Jack and going out, and so forth?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I forgot that. In other words, when they shoved me from one to the other, it was the same way.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you do not have any recollection of having told the FBI that Jack had awakened you in the morning and that you had gone out with him?
Mr. SENATOR I don't remember if I did or not. I may have. I don't remember if I did or not, now, on that.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any distinct recollections as to whether or not you mentioned the Earl Warren poster or the concern of Ruby about the Bernard Weissman advertisement?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't remember if I did or not. Maybe I did, maybe I didn't. I don't remember that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask you about accounting for your time on Saturday afternoon?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't remember that, either.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did this interrogation by the FBI man take?
Mr. SENATOR. Of course, it's guesswork again. I would say maybe it took a couple hours.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it one man or more?
Mr. SENATOR. One. I would say now----

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Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell either the State officer who interrogated you or the FBI man who interrogated you that you had a lawyer and that his name was Martin?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't think I did.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not ask that your lawyer be present?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn't
Mr. HUBERT. What occurred then after the interview with the FBI man was over? What happened?
Mr. SENATOR. Then they let me go. They released me.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did that, in fact, the FBI man or a State officer?
Mr. SENATOR. The FBI man. If I remember right, I think the FBI man said, "That is all there is." That is all there was of the interview.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were permitted to leave?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time you left?
Mr. SENATOR I would say it was between 6 and 7 at night because I know when I got outside again it was dark.
Mr. HUBERT. Was anybody waiting for you?
Mr. SENATOR. No; there was nobody waiting for me. Somebody gave me a message, or handed me a message, I don't remember who it was, that Jim Martin would meet me, the fellow who brought me down, the attorney who brought me down.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that a police officer?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no; you mean who handed me the message?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a written message? I asked that because you said you did not remember who handed you----
Mr. SENATOR. I don't remember who it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Which would indicate it was written, you see?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't remember who it was. All he said, he would meet me there. In other words, he was going to meet me across the street from the----
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a verbal message?
Mr. SENATOR. I think it was a written message. I don't remember who gave it to me.
Mr. HUBERT. You just put it in your pocket or something?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I read it.
Mr. HUBERT. You read it and threw it away?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I knew I would meet him. So I met him. As a matter of fact, I was with three attorneys when we met, either two or three attorneys.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Griffin, do you want to ask any questions on this segment that I have covered this morning up to this point?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I want to go back a little bit. When Jack Ruby left the house Sunday morning, you were dressed, were you not?
Mr. SENATOR. I?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were not dressed?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I was in my underwear.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got down to the Eatwell Restaurant, can you tell us which of the waitresses, management people, were on duty?
Mr. SENATOR. Which of the waitresses?
Mr. GRIFFIN. And management people were on duty.
Mr. SENATOR. I would say there were probably two or--no; not glancing around or anything of that nature, I would probably say there were 2 or 3 waitresses.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You eat there regularly?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I stop there every day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you know these waitresses?
Mr. SENATOR Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So what I am asking you is to tell us which of the waitresses were on duty.

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Mr. SENATOR. I could recollect the one who said it when I heard her say it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which one was that?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know her name. I know her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you not know the names of any of the people who work in there?
Mr. SENATOR. This girl here, I mean I know them all, but I don't know them by name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know any of them by name?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don't know any of them by name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know the names of the owners?
Mr. SENATOR. I know the owner. I know his first name. I don't know his last name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is that?
Mr. SENATOR. His first name is Jim. There is a father and son. Jim is the father and Charles is the son.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How old would you say they are?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say Charles must be--of course, they weren't there that day. Charles I would probably say is in--could be in I guess his late thirties, I'm not sure, and the father I would probably say is maybe in his late sixties or early seventies.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe the waitress that was on duty?
Mr. SENATOR. She was a woman about, I would probably say in her late forties or maybe early fifties, dark haired if I remember rightly, and I believe brown eyes. I don't know how to describe her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know a waitress there by the name of Helen?
Mr. SENATOR. Helen? A little short girl.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't know what she looks like.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I know one. The other is a little short girl I think by the name of Helen. I think it is Helen. See, now once in a while they wear badges but I can't remember one from the other, outside of their faces. I always say hello to them. On the other hand, I never take that much notice of who's who.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, the waitress who was on duty knew that you were Jack Ruby's roommate, did she not?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't think so. I don't think she did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The people at the Eatwell knew----
Mr. SENATOR. Some know me but I don't think this one knew me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. They know Jack as well as they know you, don't they?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don't know if they know him. See, Jack and I never went in there, I mean together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack eats there regularly?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or ate there regularly, did he not?
Mr. SENATOR. No; Jack don't eat there because he don't like their type cooking. No; Jack don't eat there. Now I go there every day. I go there every day, I go there every morning. I have coffee, I would say, probably 7 days a week.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any recognition by anyone at the Eatwell while you were in there?
Mr. SENATOR. There was very few people in there that morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But of the people who were there, did any of them appear to recognize that you were connected with Jack Ruby when they learned over the television set that Jack Ruby had----
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say to the best of my knowledge, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, that would indicate that nobody said anything to you about it. You did not have anything to----
Mr. SENATOR. No, they didn't say a word to me about it. Now, if they did or not, as I say, to the best of my knowledge, no. Now I can't quote myself, if I am that correct or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am curious as to any other people that you thought of contacting after you heard that Jack had shot----
Mr. SENATOR. No; that was it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, you----

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Mr. SENATOR. I called up Jim because I happened to know Jim and Jim was an attorney.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You thought about calling Jim before you knew who it was that had shot Lee Oswald?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know at the time that you tried to call Martin that it was somebody associated with the Carousel Club that had done it?
Mr. SENATOR. You mean Jack Ruby, my roommate?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Now, you say it was after you called Martin that you learned that it was Jack Ruby who had shot Oswald, but you said as I understand it somewhere between the time you learned Oswald was shot and you learned Ruby had done it, you heard something about it being someone from the Carousel Club.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You did not?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that at the time you called Mr. Martin, you had no idea who shot----
Mr. SENATOR. I called him because it was local news. That is why I called Jim.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think of calling anybody else?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think of trying to get a hold of Jack Ruby to tell him about it?
Mr. SENATOR. No; because Jack left home shortly before that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some idea where he was?
Mr. SENATOR. No; none whatsoever.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you walked into the police station, I understand you to say that you were mobbed by members of the press? Did you say anything to those members of the press?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, they ganged me so and everybody was throwing questions at me, and I don't even remember the things that I answered because they asked me so many things and so many people were mobbing me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you were answering their questions?
Mr. SENATOR. I was answering some of them, whatever they were asking me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say it was that you answered questions?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know. Maybe about 5 minutes I guess before two policemen nabbed me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any of the questions they asked?
Mr. SENATOR. No; God, they was throwing them left and right. I couldn't keep up with them. I just couldn't keep up with them, what they were talking about. I was just in circles, you know. Now how can I answer these questions there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see reports in the newspaper the next day or that evening about what you had said down at the police station?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn't. I didn't see no papers that evening. As a matter of fact, I never even saw the run, I--still to this day--I've never seen the TV of the shooting. I have never seen that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went out to Martin's house, did you have any fear for yourself?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any fear or thought that the police or someone might try to implicate you?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you describe yourself as being shaken up when you were at the police station--- -
Mr. SENATOR. Something like this, I would say the normal person it would make him nervous. Here I have gone through a half a century already and I have never had any incidents in my life, and I would say the normal person would be shaken up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't have any more. Wait a second. Let me ask this. When you came downtown with Mr. Martin, did you come down in his car or your car?

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Mr. SENATOR. I think I came down in my truck. No, I think I came down his car. I'm not sure but I think I came down in his car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you parked, whose car it was where you parked downtown?
Mr. SENATOR. Either parked on Commerce or Main Street, one of the two. I'm not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Near Harwood or near Pearl, or were you right in front of the police station?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no; we were down further, just to grab a parking space. I just don't remember how far down it was, but I would assume, I think we walked, I don't know, maybe two or three blocks to my knowledge, something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you come by the Western Union station?
Mr. SENATOR. Going up with Mr. Martin?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Either way, either going downtown or walking back to the police station.
Mr. SENATOR. I think we come up Commerce. I'm not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me then be more direct about this. Do you have any recollection that day of seeing Jack Ruby's car downtown?
Mr. SENATOR. No; that I have never seen, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't think I have anything more, Mr. Hubert.
Mr. HUBERT. Before I pass on to another aspect, I think there is one point that needs a bit of clarification. Mr. Griffin asked you whether or not you considered calling Ruby when you heard that Oswald had been shot, to convey the news to him as you conveyed it to your other friend, Mr. Martin. You said that you had not because you didn't know where he was; is that correct?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I knew he left the house, you know, before I did.
Mr. HUBERT. You have also testified that he had told you that he was going to take the dog to the club.
Mr. SENATOR. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, you knew he was at the club or at least you had some indication?
Mr. SENATOR. He could have been there. Now he told me he was going to the club.
Mr. HUBERT. And the club was just about a block away?
Mr. SENATOR That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. So when you didn't get Mr. Martin, you didn't try Ruby at the club?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You knew the number of the club?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any comment to make as to why you didn't call Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. No particular reason. I didn't think of it, because when he left the house he said he was going to take the dog to the club and most naturally I heard the conversation he was going to the Western Union, so who knew where his whereabouts would be.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, of course, you didn't know his whereabouts after you called Martin?
Mr. SENATOR. That is right, there was no particular reason. It just happened to be that I thought of Jim Martin.
Mr. HUBERT. All I want to do is to give you an opportunity to state for the record why it was that you did not next think of calling your friend and roommate whose approximate location you knew?
Mr. SENATOR. It just didn't enter my mind, that is all. I just didn't think about it. There was no particular reason why.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this, Mr. Senator. Was it your practice to spend time socially with Jack Ruby other than when you saw him at the apartment? Did you and he do things together?
Mr. SENATOR. No; first of all I'm out most of the time. When I get up in the morning, I mean he is still sleeping when I got up, and I don't see him in the daytime. Maybe on rare occasions something will happen, but the overall picture, no.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. And you say you are out most of the time. Is this in connection with your business?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a set of calls that you make every day?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I make calls.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Regular customers that you call on?
Mr. SENATOR. Customers, or at times probably get new ones.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on Saturdays or Sundays you do not work?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. With whom do you spend your time on Saturdays and Sundays normally?
Mr. SENATOR. Nothing in general. Once in a while I would meet Jim downtown because Jim Martin comes downtown on a Saturday, like a lot of lawyers do. They come down about 10, 10:30, 11 o'clock and they check their mail or any messages come in, such as that. Incidentally Jim Martin's office is right across the street; of course, he just moved recently. It was at the Davis Building which is across the street from the Adolphus Hotel on Main. He has been there for quite a number of years to my knowledge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who would you list as your friends in Dallas outside of Jim Martin and Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, the people I stayed with who were friends of mine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us their names?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; Jean and Lindy have, a fellow by the name of Bill Downey, Tom Howard, the attorney. I don't say I associated with him but he is a friend of mine. Another lawyer by the name of Mike Barclay; he is a friend of mine. Not that these are complete associations that you are with them every day or so, or things of that nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But are there other people whom you see more often and you are closer to than Barclay and Howard?
Mr. SENATOR. No; not particularly. Of course, every now and then an out-of-town friend of mine would come in, a traveling man; if he happened to be in Dallas I would see him, or he may call me. In other words, I'll put it this way--I had a particular hangout.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?
Mr. SENATOR. That was the Burgundy Room. I used to go there quite often.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is in the Adolphus Hotel?
Mr. SENATOR. That is in the lobby of the Adolphus Hotel. When I used to go in, you know, the latter part of the afternoon, around 5, used to always run across friends that you know and we would always have a talk session or something of that nature there. Of course, I had many friends that came in there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you would say that you saw Barclay and Howard and Martin more often than you saw the other people?
Mr. SENATOR. Martin more so than the others. But the others, I'd see them every now and then. Like the trial I'd seen them down at the courthouse and things of that nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now what about the Lauves?
Mr. SENATOR. The Lauves, those are people who I stayed with, who kept me up when I didn't have a place to stay.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But did you see them more often than you saw Howard and Barclay?
Mr. SENATOR. I stayed there every day. I was living there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean prior to the shooting.
Mr. SENATOR. Prior to that on rare occasions, on rare occasions. One time I used to see them quite often. Of course, that is when I was traveling.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But at the time that Jack Ruby shot Lee Oswald, of all the people you have mentioned, Jim Martin was the person you felt the closest to?
Mr. SENATOR. He was a close friend of mine. I used to see him almost every day, especially more so during the trial.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But what I am trying to get at is was there anybody else to whom you felt equally as close?.
Mr. SENATOR I had--let me put it this way--I had a lot of good friends.

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I don't know how you want to classify what you can close. Many friends I had, good friends.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Apparently of all the people you knew in Dallas, the one that you felt most inclined to call when you heard that Oswald had been shot was Jim Martin.
Mr. SENATOR. It happened to be I thought of Jim Martin, yes, and I called him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And if you had reached him at that time, I suppose you would have gone out to his house or you would have carried this on further. You have had some conversation with him about it?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I imagine so. I would imagine so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am getting at is you didn't really have to convey the news to Jim Martin or anybody else.
Mr. SENATOR. No; it just happened to be it was local news, you know. It is like probably a thousand other people did, called their friends "Did you hear this, did you hear that." It could be anywheres in the country.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When the President was shot did you call anybody?
Mr. SENATOR. No; because I didn't know. I was told.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But when you were told did you call anybody?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no; because the reason I didn't call anybody, it was a weekday. Now this is only guesswork. It was a weekday, and, of course, I assumed that everybody knew it as fast as I knew it or probably faster than I knew it, with the many thousands of people who were in that locale, they knew it before I did.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, let's continue from the point that you left the jail. Did you meet anyone?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who?
Mr. SENATOR. I was with Jim, I met Jim Martin and another attorney who I had only met for the first time and I don't remember his name.
Mr. HUBERT. They were waiting for you or you met them outside?
Mr. SENATOR. They told me they would meet me somewheres.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was that?
Mr. SENATOR. We met at a bar across the street from the courthouse.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the name of the bar?
Mr. SENATOR. I think it was the TV Bar.
Mr. HUBERT. The message you had was that they would meet you there, is that right?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you did go there and talked to Martin and the other lawyer?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the other attorney.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you with them?
Mr. SENATOR. If I recall right, I would say we sat in that bar and had two or three beers, if I remember right. I think I said to Jim "I don't have a place to sleep or a place to go" because I was afraid to go home.
Mr. HUBERT. You told that to Jim Martin?
Mr. SENATOR. I told that to Jim, and I believe wait a minute now--I believe, I am not sure but I think I went to his house and he said he would put me up on the couch if I was afraid to go anywheres, which I was. From there on in I was afraid to go home.
Mr. HUBERT. Why?
Mr. SENATOR. Why was I afraid to go home? Well, I was just scared, that is all.
Mr. HUBERT. Of what?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know of what, but I was scared.
Mr. HUBERT. Obviously you were scared that somebody might try to hurt you?
Mr. SENATOR. Very possibly, yes; on something like this. Now who or what I don't know but that was the instinct I had. As a matter of fact I was scared for about 10 days after that.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you were scared for 10 days after being----
Mr. SENATOR. In other words, for about 10 days I was afraid to sleep in the

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same place twice. Who I was to fear I don't know, but just the normal thing, I was afraid.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say you slept at different places every night?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; until I finally moved in with Jean.
Mr. HUBERT. What were some of the places you slept in?
Mr. SENATOR. I slept at Jim's a few times. I checked into an inexpensive hotel one time. I slept at another fellow's apartment one time and then I finally went to Jean's and stayed there, Jean Lauve. She said she would put me up because she and everybody else knew I was scared. You asked me what I feared. I don't know who I feared or what I feared but I just----
Mr. HUBERT. You honestly feared that somebody----
Mr. SENATOR. I was just in fear that is all which is a natural instinct in a situation such as this.
Mr. HUBERT. I am not saying it is not natural.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But I am trying to see if you had any idea in your own mind what you were afraid of. Now obviously you were afraid of being hurt.
Mr. SENATOR. Certainly I was afraid.
Mr. HUBERT. Possibly being killed?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now of who or what I don't know. It could be a crackpot. I don't know what it could be.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you give some consideration to the thought that whoever had been involved with the killing of the President might want to kill you?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know. I didn't know who to fear. It was just a natural instinct. I would imagine anybody in the same situation would probably fear something. It was just a natural thing for a human being to do.
Mr. HUBERT. I am not criticizing you, Mr. Senator; at all. I am just trying to find out the reason.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I had no reason or any particular thing. There was no reason for it.
Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned one, that a crank might try to hurt you.
Mr. SENATOR. A crank might. Yes; I can't measure what or who. It was just a fear.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn't it your thought that there might be some group of people who might want to hurt you?
Mr. SENATOR. I can't say it was a group or what it is or who it may be.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand that you don't know of any group?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But didn't it cross your mind that there might be a group who would want to get rid of you for some reason or other?
Mr. SENATOR. This didn't enter my mind that it was any group or anything of this nature here. All I knew is I had a fear. I don't know who, but something. I was just afraid, that is all.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you arm yourself in anyway?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I never armed myself in my life. The only gun I ever had is when they had me overseas. That is the only time I ever had a gun. I never carried a knife or a gun in my life.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do during these several days when you were in effect afraid? Did you move out in the open or did you stay----
Mr. SENATOR. I was afraid of the nighttime, not the daytime. In other words, I wanted--I didn't want to be in an isolated place anywhere. It is not that I wasn't out at night or daytime, which I was, but I didn't want to be in an isolated place. In other words, I wouldn't want to be walking down a lonely street or something like that because that would scare the life out of me. But around groups or something like that, I didn't fear it that much. Now what I feared I don't know, but it was just a natural thing I feel any individual would fear.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you communicate that fear to Jim Martin?
Mr. SENATOR. Not only to him but to many of my friends. I said, "I'm just afraid."
Mr. HUBERT. It was for that reason that several of them put you up?
Mr. SENATOR That is right. I told them I was afraid. They said "What are

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you afraid of?" You know people say, "What are you afraid of?" I said, "I'm just scared, that is all"--and who wouldn't be?
Mr. HUBERT. So your friends also were asking you as I have been as to what would you be afraid of. That is a fact isn't it?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they asked me, "What are you afraid of?' I said, "I don't know, I'm just afraid, that is all." I can't say who I am afraid of. I don't know who I am afraid of.
Mr. HUBERT. I know that you wouldn't know necessarily individuals, but you must have done something----
Mr. SENATOR. Or groups, individuals or groups as you mentioned. I can't place my finger on it.
Mr. HUBERT. But what I am suggesting to you is that your fear came from the thought that any individual or group that had anything to do with either the slaying of the President or the slaying of Oswald my have you in mind next?
Mr. SENATOR. No; my thoughts didn't run that way. My thoughts were nothing but fear, and I didn't have my mind on any groups or anything like that. I just didn't know. It might be an individual crackpot walking the streets, who knows, he doesn't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I think that is a very understandable reason that you gave us as to the crackpot.
Mr. SENATOR. It could be. I don't know what it could be.
Mr. HUBERT. It went beyond that though, didn't it?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Just your fear of a crackpot?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That is all it was?
Mr. SENATOR. When you say "beyond that," what do you mean "beyond that"?
Mr. HUBERT. That your fear went beyond the mere fear that a crackpot would hurt you, your fear and your thought about the matter went to the point that some people other than a crackpot might----
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn't think that way.
Mr. HUBERT. Then are you willing to say that it was only your fear of a crackpot?
Mr. SENATOR. I use "crackpot" as one but I don't know how to describe it. Who knows what it could be. It could be an individual walking the street, I don't know. When I was scared I had no particular thing in mind. It was just I was scared, that is all.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it ever occur to you during this period when you were frightened that Jack Ruby might have been set up by someone to kill Oswald?
Mr. SENATOR. Run that back again. Let me understand it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it ever occur to you at anytime after the shooting and when your fears began to develop that Jack Ruby might have been part of a plot to kill Oswald, and that there were others involved in the matter?
Mr. SENATOR. None whatsoever.
Mr. HUBERT. That never occurred to you?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was not any part of the basis of your fear?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. As I understand you then, you considered right from the start that this was an individual act on the part of Ruby, unconnected with anyone else?
Mr. SENATOR. Run your words again. I've got to follow you.
Mr. HUBERT. I say as I understand it then your thoughts from the very beginning were that Ruby's action was his own and that no one else was connected with it?
Mr. SENATOR. Did you say his actions was his own when this thing happened?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; and that you never considered that anyone else was in it at all but Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. No; definitely not. I never thought of anything such as that.

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Mr. HUBERT. I don't understand your answer. Pardon me. You wouldn't think of anything such as what?
Mr. SENATOR. To me he wasn't connected with anybody whatsoever of any nature.
Mr. HUBERT. You think that now and you have always thought that, is that correct?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he wasn't connected with anyone.
Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, your fears could not have been based upon the thought that anyone that he was connected with would want to hurt you, obviously, since you never thought that he had any connections?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn't have any. Let me put it this way. Even today I still have a certain fear. Now you ask me what I fear today, I don't know. This is something you just don't erase out of your mind, that is all. This is not a little thing; this is a big thing.
Mr. HUBERT. After that Sunday night when you talked to the lawyers for awhile, you went home I understand to Jim Martin's?
Mr. SENATOR. If I remember right, I'm not sure but I think Jim put me up because I was afraid to go home and I didn't have a place to go to. If I remember right I think he did. I think I went to his apartment, his home rather.
Mr. HUBERT. I am moving to the next few days, Mr. Griffin.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever given any consideration to the thought or to the possibility that someone else might have been associated with Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the killing of Oswald?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not asking you whether you ever believed such a thing but whether you ever explored that possibility in your own mind?
Mr. SENATOR. No; never could think of anything such as that. Jack was a true American. He loved his country. This is for sure. He loved the land that he lived in as I have told you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated before that there were a lot of things Jack didn't talk to you about.
Mr. SENATOR. That Jack would talk to me about?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That he did not, Jack didn't talk to you about everything he did?
Mr. SENATOR Jack lived in the show business type. This is his life. He lived in the glamour of the show business.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you feel that Jack talked to you about everything that he was doing?
Mr. SENATOR. Who can answer that? How could I answer that? How could I really answer that and know?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, sometimes you associate with a person and you know he is the kind of person who doesn't go out and talk about everything he is doing, in fact that he is the kind of person who is reticent to talk about some of the things he is doing.
Mr. SENATOR. I would say Jack was the type that would not hold back to my knowledge, that would hide anything. I don't think he would hide anything from me. I can't say positive but I don't think he would.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, he didn't discuss his relationships in the Vegas Club or in the Carousel Club with you.
Mr. SENATOR. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To any extent, did he?
Mr. SENATOR. Look, his money parts he isn't going to detail to me how much he is taking in and things of that nature or who he owes or what he don't owe. I mean I wasn't confided in that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk to you about any of the problems he was having at the club?
Mr. SENATOR. He had problems, you know, he had problems with his sister because they were of the same nature. They were cat and dog fighters.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he having any problems with the Federal Government?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I assume he was. What they were I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then it is----

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Mr. SENATOR. What I mean to say, the Federal Government, you mean tax problems?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I am certain he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But I take it these were not things that he discussed with you?
Mr. SENATOR. No; you could be friendly, friendly and all that there, but you don't know. I mean they don't tell you everything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So what I am suggesting again or asking you again is if Jack was not the kind of person who about certain matters which he considered personal or important to himself wouldn't talk about it.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don't think he would discuss everything; as a matter of fact I don't think there is any individual who will tell you everything. I don't care who they are. I am certain, I know there are people, every little thing, I mean there are certain things they keep to themselves. I would probably say like you, you, or anybody else. They are not going to tell you everything about their whereabouts, their notes, what they owe or what they don't owe or things of that nature. Everybody has a little secret or two.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To put it another way, you wouldn't describe Jack Ruby as the kind of person who as a matter of his constitutional and emotional makeup had to tell you everything he was doing? There are some people like that.
Mr. SENATOR. You mean would he tell me everything he was doing?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; there are some people who are the kind of people who just somehow have to unload almost everything they are doing to other people. Now Jack Ruby wasn't that kind of person, was he?
Mr. SENATOR. Of what he thought you mean or his thinking?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or his problems and so forth.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't think he would; no. I don't think he would unload everything. I am certain there are things that he may have owed or certain discussions he may have had that I am certain he wouldn't discuss with me. I am certain he didn't want me to know everything there was to know, you know, like anybody else would. There are certain things that an individual keeps to themselves, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead, Mr. Hubert.
Mr. HUBERT. I want to pass to the next day, which is to say Monday, the 25th, unless you can advise me now that there was nothing of significance that occurred on the night of the 24th after you had met with Mr. Martin and Mr. Barclay.
Mr. SENATOR. You mean Sunday night?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Barclay wasn't with me Sunday night.
Mr. HUBERT. There was another attorney.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I didn't say Barclay. I don't remember his name.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't remember his name?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't see Tom Howard that night?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know if I did or not. I don't remember if I saw him or not that night.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to bed early?
Mr. SENATOR. You see I can't quote if I did or didn't. I just don't remember if I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time you went to bed at Jim Martin's house?
Mr. SENATOR. No; it could have been 11, 12, I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. As I remember it, you said you met them at about 6 or 7. It was dark in any case?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. You stayed about a half hour and you left?
Mr. SENATOR. What?
Mr. HUBERT. You stayed about a half hour in the beer place?
Mr. SENATOR. It may have been a half hour, it may have been an hour, I don't know.

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Mr. HUBERT. And you left and went to Jim Martin's?
Mr. SENATOR. I believe we went to Jim Martin's house. I think that I slept there that first night.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you meet anyone else that first night or speak to anyone else that first night, that is November the 24th, 1963?
Mr. SENATOR. November 24?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Are you talking about Friday?
Mr. HUBERT. No; November 24 was a Sunday.
Mr. SENATOR. No; because I was wrapped up. I was wrapped up in the courthouse all that day.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean to say after you left the beer parlor, which I think you said was the TV Bar?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You said you think you went to Jim Martin's house?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember if I met Tom Howard. I just don't remember the incident but I am almost certain that I went there to sleep.
Mr. HUBERT. You went to Jim Martin's house?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am asking you is that prior to the time----
Mr. SENATOR. Did we meet anybody else?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't think so. I don't remember but I don't think so.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's come then to Monday morning. What happened then?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, if you can let me interrupt you here before you get to Monday morning.
When you met with Martin at the TV Bar, did you all talk about Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; there was discussion of it, that there and the events. Of course, he asked me what happened after I got in there. I told him. This detective, I guess, I just don't remember who the man was, they interrogated me and I told them the FBI interrogated me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Martin say anything to you about Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't think so. I don't remember. I don't think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate whether or not he had seen Jack while you were being interrogated by the police?
Mr. SENATOR. If I remember right, I think he said he seen him at a glance behind us, I think it was the same window that I saw. They had him in this room there and I think there were three or four men there, something like that, but there was this glass partition. In other words, you could see in. I think he saw him. I am not sure but I think he saw him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Tom Howard at the TV Bar at that time?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't remember. I remember there was Jim, there was this other attorney, but I don't remember if Tom was or not. In other words, I don't want to quote and say he was or wasn't because I just don't remember. He may have been now. He may have been there. I just can't think if he was or not that night. He may have been.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what your conversation was about at the TV Bar?
Mr. SENATOR. No; of course, I told him--he asked me what happened, you, know. I told him I was interrogated by the local police and the FBI.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk about Jack's defense?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now Saturday night, the 23d, you spent some time with Bill Downey and Mike Barclay?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see them?
Mr. SENATOR. We were sitting at a bar.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which bar was that?
Mr. SENATOR. I think we were in the Burgundy Room and then we went to another one there and had I think either one or two beers and then we went home. At least I went home anyhow.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the other bar that you were in?
Mr. SENATOR. It was very seldom I ever went there. I'm trying to think of the name of it. It is a short name too, and I can't even put my finger on it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What street was it on?
Mr. SENATOR. On Fitzhugh.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located?
Mr. SENATOR. It was on Fitzhugh. It runs off of, I think--down where Travis is?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No.
Mr. SENATOR. Fitzhugh and Travis. I should know the name of it but I can't get it off my tongue. It is a short name too.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that anywhere near Hall Street?
Mr. SENATOR. No; this is uptown about I would probably say from the downtown area I would imagine it would probably take you 10 minutes to get up there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you mean the time you spent with Downey and Barclay--what did you talk about with them that night, Saturday night?
Mr. SENATOR. We talked about the occurrence of the shooting of the President, that there. It was just a gloomy night. That is why I didn't want to stay long. I said I wanted to get home and they said they wanted to get home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you had a date to meet them at the Burgundy Room?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I think I met them both by chance there. Now I am not sure if I had a date to meet Bill or not, I don't remember, but I think Mike just walked in casually. I mean just happened to walk in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Bill married?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how about Mike?
Mr. SENATOR. Mike; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they know Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. Who don't know Jack in Dallas? They all knew him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk about Jack that night?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how much time would you say you spent with them Saturday?
Mr. SENATOR. We went to that bar, I would roughly say maybe a half hour to three quarters of an hour, I would guess around that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That was at the Burgundy Room?
Mr. SENATOR. No; that is when we went to this other place and had a beer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All together, the time you spent at the Burgundy Room and the other place on Fitzhugh how much time did you spend with them?
Mr. SENATOR. Maybe an hour and a half.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then when you went home what did you do?
Mr. SENATOR. I went home and went to bed. I think I took a newspaper with me, if I am not mistaken and went home and went to bed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get to bed at what you would consider an early hour Saturday night?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I would say it was somewhere around 11.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much sleep do you normally get, when you go to bed, how much sleep do you normally put in a night?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, of course, that would go according to what time you went to bed, you know. It could be 4, 5, 6, 7 hours. I doubt if I ever stay in bed more than 8 hours the most, if it ever happens that long, which is rare.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So would it be your estimate that on Sunday morning you arose by 7 o'clock?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don't think I got up that early.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you didn't get up that early, then would it have been because you got to bed late that night after 11 or after midnight?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I must have been home about 11 o'clock that night. I think I read a little bit but I know I was in bed before 12. I think I was in the apartment around 11. I got home around 11.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't think you got more than 8 hours sleep that night or do you?

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Mr. SENATOR. I doubt if I got more than 8 hours sleep.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then I suggest to you that in all probability you got up on Sunday morning before 8 o'clock.
Mr. SENATOR. I would say around 8. Now mind you I got home 11 o'clock; so I assume I got in bed maybe around 12. Now mind you it is not necessarily that you fall asleep right away. Look, there is many a night that I toss and turn for 4 or 5 hours and didn't fall asleep, which is rare, but it has happened.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have trouble sleeping that night?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I mean when I went to sleep, when I fell asleep I slept well.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert.
Mr. HUBERT. Now let's see, I think we were at the point of Monday morning, and I should like you to tell us what happened on Monday beginning with the time you got up on Monday morning. I think you said you slept at Jim Martin's house.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do the next day?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I got up and I drove him to his office and I think from there I went----
Mr. HUBERT. In your car?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I drove him down, and I dropped him off, and then I went and had coffee. I don't remember if it was around 9 or something like that. He gets down about 9 in the morning.
Mr. HUBERT. Did anything happen at the coffee shop?
Mr. SENATOR. No; nothing particular, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Did the people there talk about Ruby and your connection with him?
Mr. SENATOR. Talk to me about him? No; they didn't say anything, but they knew you know. The people who knew me knew.
Mr. HUBERT. But nobody said anything to you?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. But the fact that you had been his roommate.
Mr. SENATOR. No; it was pretty silent. It was pretty silent.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened the rest of the day? What did you do that day?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I just roamed around in a fog that day, nothing in particular.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't attempt to do your normal business?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I wasn't in any condition for business. I didn't feel that good.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't remember seeing anybody that day at all.
Mr. SENATOR. I am certain--who I saw. I don't remember but I am certain that I seen people; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned that sometime you saw Howard and you don't know whether you saw Howard the night before.
Mr. SENATOR. It is very possible that I may have seen Howard the next day. I may have seen him. Now where or when I don't know, you know.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you see him about? Can you tell us what the nature of the conversation was?
Mr. SENATOR Well, I heard that Howard was getting the case, the Jack Ruby case.
Mr. HUBERT. So you went to see him about what? Put it this way, did he call for you?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or did you just decide to go and see him?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn't call for me.
Mr. HUBERT. You went to see him?
Mr. SENATOR. I saw him sometime during that day.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us what it was about, what you talked about?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't believe it was anything particular that we talked about except I heard that he was getting the Jack Ruby case.
I don't remember the particular conversation at all.

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Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps you can tell us this then. Since he didn't call upon you, you called upon him, what was the purpose of your visiting him? To find out the status of it?
Mr. SENATOR. Of me?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. To find out the status of Ruby's defense, to see if you could help, to see if you could throw light upon it, to find out what was going on?
Mr. SENATOR. Everything in general was going on, you know. The photographers were around and the newspapers were around, and I believe he was down at the jailhouse. It is a conglomeration of things going on.
Mr. HUBERT. But you went to see him, and I suppose that was the purpose of the visit, that was the purpose in mind.
Mr. SENATOR. No; there was no purpose in mind. It was just going to see him. When you say the purpose in mind--I was so mixed up myself I didn't know what was going on.
Mr. HUBERT. I am not trying to confuse you.
Mr. SENATOR. There was no general purpose in mind.
Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying to us is then that you just went to see him, Mr. Howard, and that there was no purpose in mind.
Mr. SENATOR. No particular purpose in mind. I saw him. I saw Jim Martin later on that day.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you excuse me a minute. Will you take over.
(Short recess taken.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will simply ask you to remember everything that Mr. Hubert has been in the practice of repeating before we proceed.
Mr. SENATOR. If I can remember it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To the effect that you are still under oath and we are continuing under the same circumstances that we began.
I believe we were talking about Monday, and you had indicated that on Monday you went to see Tom Howard.
Mr. SENATOR. I saw him. I just don't remember where. Monday there was so much excitement going that when I say excitement, of the occurrence of the day before, and with your photographers around town and your pressmen and whatnot, you know, and the incoming of the FBI and things of that nature there, you know, it was a crazy cycle, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to any members of the Ruby family that day?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't think I saw them that day. I can't quote every instance.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his employees?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I went up--let's see, the club was closed Friday, Saturday and Sunday, and I think they did open Monday, and I think I was up there Monday night, if I am not mistaken, and, of course, going up there you had all your photographers, especially the ones from Europe and various parts were coming around. Of course, everybody wanted to see what the Carousel Club was. You know, it was just a mixed-up thing, so many things were going on there, and you were just roaming here and there, and, of course, people were questioning. A lot of people wanted to take pictures of me and this thing here. It was just a jammed-up, mixed-up day.
I know I saw Tom Howard that day. I don't remember where I saw him, if I called on him or what it was because so many things were going on there and my mind was in a muddle even with that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The questioning that took place on Monday, did it have to do with what you had done on Friday, Saturday and Sunday?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What Jack had done on Friday, Saturday or Sunday?
Mr. SENATOR No; there was nothing in general. I mean there was nothing particular. I mean all my questionings--I mean all my questionings--I had that Sunday you know, with the local detective or whoever the gentlemen was, and the FBI man.
But Monday, when they wanted to know about Jack Ruby, they wanted to see pictures of him. They wanted to see the club of his. They wanted to see

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whatever they could get their hands on to see. They wanted to know this about him and that about him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they want to know if he was involved with anybody else, whether there could have been a plot or a conspiracy to kill Oswald?
Mr. SENATOR. I am certain that probably would run through the minds of everybody.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they asking questions about that?
Mr. SENATOR. They have asked me so many questions that I can't even remember to think of them, you know, because there were so many questions thrown at you. And when they are throwing them at you, the general questions, they wanted to see the club, they wanted to see pictures, who were the strippers, this, that and whatnot. There was nothing precise except the curiosity of the things they wanted to see.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now when you talked with Howard, of course, Howard indicated to you that you probably would be a witness for Jack, did he not?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't remember the incident at that time. I don't remember if he said it or not because I would probably say it was a little too soon at that time, the happenings, and I assume that Howard was kept pretty busy at the beginning, probably going to see Jack Ruby and this. You see, people were grabbing everybody.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When is the first time that you recall talking with anyone about being a witness for Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. At that time it didn't even enter my head. I wasn't thinking about that even. But as time went by, and I can't specify just how much time went by, I believe it was when Mr. Belli came into the case. See, I don't remember just how long it was from there until they got this Belli.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: After you heard that Jack had killed Oswald, did you have any idea, did you think, why did he do it?
Mr. SENATOR. I hadn't the slightest idea. I couldn't imagine why. I'll tell you why I say that. Because he never at any time ever gave me any indication of anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you since then----
Mr. SENATOR. I just couldn't picture this man doing it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that?
Mr. SENATOR. I couldn't think. I couldn't picture him being of this nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And there was nothing that he had done that you had seen up to that point that would indicate that he had any thought about it?
Mr. SENATOR. No, none whatsoever. As a matter of fact, he had never even mentioned this Oswald to me during this occurrence even, but he had talked about the President, and he had talked about Mrs. Kennedy and the children, I don't know how many times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But did you think he was any more disturbed than what you----
Mr. SENATOR. He was plenty disturbed. He was plenty disturbed. The man was crying. People have seen him, not only I, people have seen him crying. As a matter of fact, one of the kids in the club one night when we sat in a corner related he was crying and very, very disturbed. I believe it was one afternoon he was in there, if I remember right, I think it was the colored boy, Andrews, if I am not mistaken, I think said he saw him in a solemn condition or whatever condition you want to call it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when you were interviewed by Elmer Moore?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you living at that time? Who were you staying with at that time?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't want to be quoted but I think I was staying with Jean Lauve then. I am not sure, but I think I was there at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did the interview take place?
Mr. SENATOR. At the FBI building. I can't think of the name of the building, but the FBI people.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The office of the Secret Service? Moore is with the Secret Service.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, the Secret Service. I meant to say the Secret Service.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he call you and ask you to come down?

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Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He had left a message at the Carousel or he may have been up there. As a matter of fact, I can even show you his card if you would like to see it. I've still got that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think you were staying with the Lauves at that point?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I was there. I'm not sure. I don't remember just where, but I think I was there at that time, because when Elmer Moore called me, I just don't remember how many days have elapsed by when he called me, see. I think it was a few days that were elapsed by when he called me and I think I may have been at the Lauves at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you return to work at any time before Moore----
Mr. SENATOR. Return to work?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; before Moore called you.
Mr. SENATOR. I hadn't worked at all from this thing here up until I told you I went to work the other day. If you want to classify me, I was just existing here and there, that is all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Your employment up until the time that the President was killed was with the Texas Postcard & Novelty Co.?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that your own company?
Mr. SENATOR. I was classified as sales manager and partner, but with no say. In other words, I had no money.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were the people, the backers?
Mr. SENATOR. The backers?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. The people? A fellow by the name of Mort Seder and Ernest St. Charles.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to get involved in that?
Mr. SENATOR. In the postcard business?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; with them?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, Ernest St. Charles found out--see, he had a card rack like a lot of drug stores do or gift shops or things of that nature. He had found out that this fellow wanted to sell his business because this was a minute business with him because, he had another one, you know, which was much larger or whatever, the household goods or, something of that nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As I understand it, the Texas Postcard & Novelty Co. was a going business.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before Seder and St. Charles got involved in it?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it was going. It was a going business. And he wanted to get rid of this business, because I just don't remember if he couldn't handle it or he couldn't handle both of them, I think it was. And this business here, he had to get rid of because it was deteriorating a bit because it wasn't getting the service. It wasn't being handled for the service. In other words, his business had slipped a certain amount.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Seder and St. Charles put up some money to acquire this business?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, they put up the money; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how much money did they put up?
Mr. SENATOR. I think they put up somewheres around $1,500 apiece, and I think they took a note for $1,500. I think the business went for $3,000, if I can remember right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What assets, what kind of assets did they acquire?
Mr. SENATOR. The cards.
Mr. GRIFFIN. No office space?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no. See, he is in business in a little sort of a garage like in the back of his house. In the back of his house he has got this sort of garage-like thing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who are you talking about?
Mr. SENATOR. The fellow that had it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what his name was?

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Mr. SENATOR. I should remember his name. I can't even think of his name right now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, maybe you will think of it later. Did Seder and St. Charles have another business which they operated while they----
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this business was a small little thing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was a sideline with them?
Mr. SENATOR. Just a little thing. It wasn't even, you know--it was a small little business.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Seder's main business?
Mr. SENATOR. Seder was a traveling man who sold men's apparel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was St. Charles' main business?
Mr. SENATOR. St. Charles, a drugstore.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you acquire the postcards and novelties from?
Mr. SENATOR. The novelties, you see, there was a few novelties that he had left over in this thing here, in this business here, which weren't that good, and I got rid of them at a loss, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you buy any----
Mr. SENATOR. There wasn't that much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you buy any more novelties to supplant those?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you buy those?
Mr. SENATOR. Some I bought locally and some were bought out of town.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And I take it the postcards, you had some source supplying the postcards too?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Seder and St. Charles between the time that Jack Ruby killed Oswald and the time that Elmer Moore talked with you?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't think so. I don't think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to him by telephone?
Mr. SENATOR. Who?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Seder and St. Charles.
Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it then that you did not feel any obligation to report back to them and tell them that you were not going to be----
Mr. SENATOR. I was obligated, but the condition I felt, it was just a no-care attitude any more.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any sort of a draw from this postcard and novelty company?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your draw?
Mr. SENATOR. It was $75 a week, but I was drawing $61.45.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you continue with your draw after Jack----
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't continue after Jack killed Oswald?
Mr. SENATOR. Nothing. I didn't do anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after Elmer Moore talked with you, you were then interviewed some time later by two FBI agents, Mr. Rawlings and Glonek?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is correct.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where you were staying at that time?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I was staying with Lauve. The first approximately 10 days you know, I was just jumping around. But from there on in I was with Lauve.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stay with the Lauves?
Mr. SENATOR. I must have stayed with them, I would probably say approximately around 5 weeks, I think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you leave Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. I left Dallas, I think it was about the end of the first week, if I remember right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of what?
Mr. SENATOR. January.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And when did you return to Dallas?

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Mr. SENATOR. It was the latter part of February. I think it was the last week in February.
Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were away from Dallas, where were you?
Mr. SENATOR. At my sister's.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is Freda Weisberg in New York?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your occasion for returning to Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. I knew I had to be a witness because I was called on the first bond hearing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That was your occasion?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. For returning?
Mr. SENATOR. I had to come back as a witness.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the bond hearing?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no. I was at the bond hearing before I went away. I think I was at the first bond hearing. I don't remember the date, but it was in December sometime.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that before or after you talked with Agents Rawlings and Glonek that you appeared at the bond hearing?
Mr. SENATOR. That was before because I remember one day that I met one of the agents. As a matter of fact, I was in the lobby of the Adolphus Hotel and one of the agents hollered out, "Hi, George" and I turned around to see who it was. It happened he was talking to some other agents and they were departing, they were going home.
So I walked over to him and I asked him who would I notify if I wanted to, who would I notify with the FBI that I was going to leave, that I wanted to go home but I wanted them to know where I was going, and he mentioned, call Mr. Cements.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time of the first bond hearing, who was representing Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. Mr. Belli, Joe Tannenbaum--not Tannenbaum, Joe Tonahill.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Anyone else?
Mr. SENATOR. Tom Howard was in it, but at that time he had no say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened that Howard was not given any say?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I am not sure how to relate it, but I think that Earl Ruby, who was in Detroit then, was still in Detroit, spoke to some lawyer I think in Chicago now. I think it was in Chicago, looking for a lawyer, a big lawyer for Jack Ruby, and this lawyer to my knowledge, if I understand it right, was quoted to get Mr. Belli.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how about Tonahill? How did Tonahill get in?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know. Tonahill, it seems, must have been a friend of Belli. The relationship I don't know, how they met or something of that nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to Jack Ruby between the time you last saw him that Sunday morning, the 24th of November, and now?
Mr. SENATOR. In the jail.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to him?
Mr. SENATOR. In jail, sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you talk with Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. Various times, various times that Sheriff Decker would let me up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him before the bond hearing?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I did, yes. I think so. I think I was up there. I mean I can't quote dates. I don't even remember what the date of the bond hearing was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the first time you went up to see him?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go up with anybody?
Mr. SENATOR. No, I went up alone. The reason for that, the reason I say I went up alone is because nobody was up there, allowed up there, besides the family and maybe very, very close friends because Sheriff Decker wouldn't allow anybody in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you spend with Jack that first time?

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Mr. SENATOR. I don't remember. You know, they have got a limitation on you. I don't remember just how long I talked to him. It wasn't too long because they let you know that you have got to go.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what happened on this occasion.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't remember what it was. First of all, I never talked to him, I would never ask him what happened. I never talked about that. I talked about anything else, and he was telling me, he said he wanted me to look up certain people, the locales, tell them where he was and things like that there, like sisters and Gordon McLendon which he asked me to go, whom I never saw, never got to.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack's relationship with Gordon McLendon?
Mr. SENATOR. He just knew him. There was no relationship. He mentioned a lot of names. He mentioned a lot of names to call them for the bond hearing. I remember this. He was trying to get certain people to come to the bond hearing. And he was rattling off a lot of big names. He rattled off the manager, I don't remember the name, from the Statler Hilton, anybody who was prominent, such as I think the rabbi too if I am not mistaken.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack appear to want to make bond at that time?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know. He didn't discuss that, but I do know--I can't answer unless you want me to surmise something, guess on it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Unless you have some information which leads you to think how he felt.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't have information on that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk to the lawyers about whether they were really serious about making bond?
Mr. SENATOR. I think the lawyers were trying to get bond for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk with them?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I will tell you something. The lawyers didn't discuss anything with me at no time. They said, "George, we are going to use you as a witness," which I knew they wanted me for that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There came a time when Howard was no longer part of the case?
Mr. SENATOR. He was part of the case; he was still part of the case when I left, you know, but how big his say was I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got back for the trial, however, he was not a part of the case; is that correct?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I think he was out of it before I got back. I am not sure, but I think he was. I don't think he was in the case.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you returned for the trial, did you have occasion to talk with Howard at all?
Mr. SENATOR. I saw him on certain occasions.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever learn how he happened to get out of the case?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, he got out of the case--I mean I really don't know, but I feel he got out of the case because he was--there was nothing, practically, to speak of. I guess that is about the best way to describe him. He had no say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it something he had told you?
Mr. SENATOR. What?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it something he had told you?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no. But he had no say any more. So I don't know how to classify his sitting there, just being there with no say any more, no nothing. After all, when he originally started, he was the leadman, you know, and then all the things materialized after that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times would you say you saw Jack Ruby in his jail cell between the time that he shot Oswald and the time that he was tried, actually went to trial, in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. How many times?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. A guess?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Your best estimate. Try to give some thought to it.
Mr. SENATOR. Let me see now. I would say maybe 10 or 15 times, I would guess.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice any change in him over this period of time?
Mr. SENATOR. Sure.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first notice that he was changing; that there was some change?
Mr. SENATOR. I saw him very few times, you know, previous to when I went away, but his change--when I really noticed the change was after I came back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was in February?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After the 18th of February?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. His voice was getting lower, and his head was hanging and this is the way it was all the way up until the period, even after the trial. I don't know--I don't know how to describe the words; you call it deterioration or whatever runs through him; I don't know. I would never ask him anything like that, you know. I never spoke about anything like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice a change----
Mr. SENATOR. He had lost weight.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He had lost weight?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You noticed a change in his voice and something about the way he carried his head?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Anything else?
Mr. SENATOR. And he lost weight. Of course, he quoted the Bible to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he ever done that before?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean to you; had he ever quoted from the Bible to you before?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don't think so, that I can remember of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What passages of the Bible was he quoting?
Mr. SENATOR He didn't. He didn't quote the passages, but he quoted that he was reading the Bible. He didn't quote any passages to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his manner of speech other than the deepness of his voice? Was there anything about the manner of his speech?
Mr. SENATOR. What do you mean; the manner of his speech?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Coherence, his ability to carry through on a topic of conversation. Was he able to discuss topics as lucidly as he had discussed them previously to you?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I'll tell you, it got so that there was a hesitation. The words were even silent. There was no speaking at James; just, you know, like, you know. In other words, you know, there is very little of him I could see. I was looking through this little glass. I couldn't touch him or nothing. In other words, instead of his wall being plaster, the thing was steel or iron, whatever it was; see what I mean?
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you and he would be separated?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes. I couldn't even touch him. It was impossible.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of him could you see? We are going to have to get this on the record. This is the problem.
Mr. SENATOR. In other words, I am standing up here and I am looking through a glass about like this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are looking through a little glass door?
Mr. SENATOR. And like this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A little glass window?
Mr. SENATOR. A window something like this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe 12 inches long and 8 inches high or something?
Mr. SENATOR. Approximately. This is a guess.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At about eye level?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it's eye level. And under it are these perforations that you have to talk to; holes. You know; perforated holes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Perforations in a door of some sort?
Mr. SENATOR. No door; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Just a wall?
Mr. SENATOR. Just a wall.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. And you could not see Jack other than through that window?
Mr. SENATOR. No. That is the only thing. It is just a solid----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Steel?
Mr. SENATOR. A solid steel wall. At one end was a door, but that was solid, too. In other words, when you looked at the door you might as well say it was part of the wall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was the cell that Jack was kept in?
Mr. SENATOR. No; this was no cell. I don't know what cell he was in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack stay in there?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He was brought in?
Mr. SENATOR. This is a hallway. This was a narrow hallway. Apparently they didn't let you know the cell he was in. I never saw him in a cell. I have never seen any cells. They'd bring him down in, and, of course, I can't see which way they are coming through. All I can say is they are coming this way when I walk in, and this is this little hall, this little hallway. I can't see every bit of him, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And were these always the conditions under which you talked to Jack, even before you left Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. That is the only way I have ever seen him, from beginning to end. That is the only way I could ever see him. In other words, there was no time that I could even touch him to shake his hand; nothing, because there was nothing but a solid iron or steel, or whatever it was, wall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated that, of course, you noticed the most marked change in him when you returned to Dallas, and I take it from that, up until the time you left Dallas, you didn't notice any substantial changes in him?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say that there may have been a little you know, there may have been some change, but how much there was or how much; I know this; I am certain within the man there would have to be some change, because when I left already, how long has passed, maybe 5 or 6 weeks have already passed by. Within the feelings of himself, which I don't know, there must have been some change within him, you know, which I sort of surmised. Now, how much, I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Has there ever been any time that you have talked to Jack where he wasn't coherent?
Mr. SENATOR. Take that coherent word and use another phrase.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You use a phrase that is more appropriate to you. I take it you have some idea of what I am suggesting.
Mr. SENATOR Well, when you say "coherent," break it down to another word and make it more simplified for me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anytime that you talked to him where it appeared that he did not understand what you were saying to him?
Mr. SENATOR I never noticed it, or even thought about it that way. I don't even know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there ever anytime when you would ask him a question or say something to him and you would get back a response which did not make any sense to you?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't think so; not that I can recall. I don't think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anytime when you would ask Jack questions and he would not be able to respond at all?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he was able to respond.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you at anytime talked with Jack about the events of November 22, 23, and 24?
Mr. SENATOR. Never at anytime have I ever been at that jailhouse where anything like that ever come up. I have never asked him, and I don't think anybody would to my knowledge, would ask him questions like that, because this would be a hard subject to talk about. I would assume probably in the condition that he was in and the locale, the placement of where he is in, of what he is in----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever indicate to you any fear; has he indicated any fear to you in the times that you have talked to him since he shot Oswald?

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Mr. SENATOR. He didn't look fearful to me. Now I don't know, you know. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I want to do now is go through with you some documents. I have got a series of photographs and other things here, and I want to ask you some questions about them. I am going to hand you what has been marked for identification as "Exhibit 5304-A," which was used in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong. That is a photograph, and I am going to hand it to you and ask you if you recognize where that photograph was taken?
Mr. SENATOR. I am not familiar with it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize anybody in that photograph?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don't. Where is it supposed to be?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is what I am asking you.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you look at the man who is tending bar? Do you recognize him?
Mr. SENATOR. No; it is a pretty shady picture to see his face.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 5304-B, which was also used in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong. That is another photograph, and it shows a girl in a western costume standing on a table. Do you recognize any of the people in that photograph, or do you recognize where that photograph was taken?
Mr. SENATOR. No; never seen a place with elkhorns or whatever they are. Is that a night club or a restaurant, that place?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I was hoping you would be able to tell us.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know. I'll tell you with a guess; it looks like a restaurant, according to the curtains. That is what it looks like to me. I don't even know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you what has been marked as "Exhibit 5302," and unless I indicate to the contrary, all of these exhibits have been used in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong. That is a photograph of a man. Do you recognize that man?
Mr. SENATOR. No; is he a Dallas man? I don't know that man.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then I hand you Exhibit 5303-A, and I would like you to look over that photograph. It is actually a series of about 12 small photos. Can you tell me if you recognize anybody in there?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I know it is the Carousel. These prints are pretty small for my eyesight. I have seen him. I don't know who he is, but I have seen him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating a fat, obese man?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I have seen him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you seen him?
Mr. SENATOR. At the Carousel. I believe these occurred, I think, when they were having--what do you call that now? I think when they were giving prizes away, if I am not mistaken, on this particular time, and then sometimes they would have on Friday or Saturday, Saturday night, amateur hour.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This would be amateur strippers?
Mr. SENATOR. Once in a while there was one girl who would always bring up, after she got through she would always bring up one fellow to do the twist. Now this wasn't every night; only this one girl when she was on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of Jack's stripteasers?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. As a matter of fact, I think I saw him do the twist once.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That big, fat man?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. But I can't see the faces here. But I can't help but recognize him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You can't make out the faces in looking at those photographs?
Mr. SENATOR. This is an M.C.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating the center photograph at the top?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this is an M.C. This looks like Tammi.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tammi True?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The left-hand side in the third photograph?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. As a matter of fact, are they all Tammi's? Yes; that is

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Tammi. This girl is not clear enough for me to see. I am certain I know her, but I can't tell which one that is. That is about all I can see there. The majority are all customers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you do not recognize any of the customers.
Mr. SENATOR. No, because they ain't looking this way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now let me hand you Exhibit 5303-B and ask you if you recognize any of the people in those photographs.
Mr. SENATOR That is Tammi True.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The stripper that is shown in those photographs is Tammi True?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of the customers?
Mr. SENATOR. This you can't see at all. This you can't see at all. I can't tell from this. This is no way of seeing; this is no way of seeing. This you can't see hardly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I hand you Exhibit 5303-C and ask you if you recognize any of the people in those photographs?
Mr. SENATOR. I know the stripper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is that?
Mr. SENATOR. That is Kathy Kay, but I can't recognize anybody from the back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; now, Exhibit 5303-D; do you recognize anybody in there?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is Little Lynn.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The stripper is Little Lynn?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; as I know her. You called her Karen. What is her last name?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Bennett.
Mr. SENATOR. Bennett; yes. I don't recognize anybody else here though.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Little Lynn before you began to live with Jack Ruby the last time?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't remember. All I know--see, I didn't always come there every night, you know, but I walked in one night and I saw her there and, of course, I didn't know who she was. She had already been there a few days, I think, or something like that, which I didn't know. This is the one that, I guess you probably know, that came in with that gun with no firing pin. I guess you heard about that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It was at the trial, was it not?
Mr. SENATOR Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or one of the hearings.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; she come in with this gun, which I believe didn't have a firing pin, and, of course, there was no ammunition, but it was a blank gun. According to what I have heard around the station there, that she had switched bags and was in a hurry or something like that, and she didn't even know the gun was in there, according to what I have heard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You haven't talked to her about it?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no. When that happened, she was being searched just as you walk into the courtroom, and that is where they got her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you look at Exhibit 5303-E and tell me if you recognize anybody in there?
Mr. SENATOR, Yes; I know the stripper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is that?
Mr. SENATOR. Joy Dale. The people, no. They are all facing the other way. That is why I can't recognize anybody.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now look at Exhibit 5303-F and tell me if you recognize anybody in there?
Mr. SENATOR, This is Kathy Kay.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The stripper is Kathy Kay?
Mr. SENATOR, Kathy Kay, and this is Joy on this side.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Joy Dale on the right-hand side, a stripper?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And Kathy Kay on the left?

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Mr. SENATOR. This is that big heavy-set fellow which I can tell. I don't know his name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The top picture in the center?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. And the cocktail waitress.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is the cocktail waitress?
Mr. SENATOR. Bonnie something. I don't know her last name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is she shown in the picture in the lower right-hand side?
Mr. SENATOR. Bonnie. I don't know her last name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don't recognize anybody else?
Mr. SENATOR. Let me see. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I hand you Exhibit 5303-G. Do you recognize anybody in there?
Mr. SENATOR. This is Kathy Kay, the stripper. Excuse me, not Kathy Kay. This is Tammi True. That is an error. But I can't see no faces there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you Exhibit 5303-H. Other than the strippers, do you recognize any of the other people in those pictures?
Mr. SENATOR. You don't want the strippers, right?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.
Mr. SENATOR. I am looking for the face here but I can't see it. This one I can't see the face well. Whether I know him or not, I don't think so but I just can't see their face well.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now Exhibit 5303-I, other than the stripper and the fat man who is shown there, do you recognize any of the people?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, Exhibit 5303-J, other than the entertainers, do you recognize any of the people?
Mr. SENATOR. I can tell that this is Tammi True from the back. No, no, I don't. The M.C. I don't know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is the M.C.?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't even know his name. He was only there a short while, this particular one here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me give you Exhibit 5303-K.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of the people shown there?
Mr. SENATOR. That is the cocktail waitress. I can't distinguished who it is. This sort of looks like Jack, but I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are pointing to----
Mr. SENATOR. But I am not sure. I'll tell you, I am looking at the head because it is sort of baldish.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But the people in the foreground in that picture, you don't recognize any of them?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, Exhibit 5303-L. Other than Jack Ruby, do you recognize anybody in there?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you Exhibit 5300-A and ask you if you recognize any of the people in that picture other than Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. Kathy Kay.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the blonde on Jack Ruby's right, or left as you look at the picture?
Mr. SENATOR. This is a cocktail waitress. Her name is Alice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The girl on Jack Ruby's left, Jack's left but the right side of the picture?
Mr. SENATOR. Alice, I don't remember her last name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had Alice worked for Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say on and off for maybe a year and a half or two, but I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack date Alice?
Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Alice every solicit up at Jack's apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. I think she came there once for I think it was a job interference. I think for some reason, I don't know what it was because I didn't stay, but

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she was there once. She came there one afternoon. I don't know what happened.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you Exhibit 5301-D. Do you recognize any of the girls in that picture?
Mr. SENATOR. This is Joy Dale on the left and this is Little Lynn.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the right?
Mr. SENATOR. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on the right of the picture as you look at the picture?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; Little Lynn on the right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am going to do, Mr. Senator, I am going to hand you a set of photographs, 5306-A and 5306-B. These photographs are pictures of memoranda that were made at one time or another. Let me ask you to look at those. First, I will ask you a general question about these memoranda.
Do you ever recall Jack Ruby having any memoranda pads similar to those that are shown in those photographs?
Mr. SENATOR. No; with him, everything went on a piece of paper, it don't matter what type it was. He would keep his papers and notes, everything else like he kept his money, all over.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he keep some of his papers and notes at home?
Mr. SENATOR. It could be at the office or at home because he wasn't immaculate in where he kept things, things of that nature there. It would lay here, lay there, lay in the office, wherever it laid. That is the way he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any memoranda pads such as this?
Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of. I can't say yes or no, but not to my knowledge that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to take messages for him at home?
Mr. SENATOR. Very seldom if the phone rang and all I would do is write it on whatever piece of paper it might be. No particular paper, sometimes even on a newspaper, whatever it was, whatever is close by. I have seen those go on pieces of paper this big even, you know. It is just no particular type piece of paper with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who Nancy Barker might have been?
Mr. SENATOR. No; it could have been maybe somebody calling for a job. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who Joyce Harvey was?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who Linda Bumwalt was?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Emma Ship?
Mr. SENATOR No; the only thing possibly could happen, I may know somebody by face maybe but not by name. This could be. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Jean Bordon?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Archie Esquavill? Did you ever hear of him?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of a person named T. E. Smith?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I am going to hand you a series of photographs which are marked Exhibits 5305-A to 5305-S. These are photographs of a notebook which had a cover which said "Aladdin," and I ask you first of all if you have ever seen this Aladdin notebook?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't think I have. I mean, his things that he kept in his pocket, I assume that is it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look through those photographs and look through all of them, and I am going to ask you a general question whether you recognize that notebook?
Mr. SENATOR. So far this stuff I have never seen, though I do know he had books, you know, notebooks, but I have never seen the insides of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to read what is on those pages?
Mr. SENATOR. Some yes and some no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will ask you the question again: Do you ever recall having seen this particular notebook?
Mr. SENATOR. I know he had a book. Now, I don't know about the cover, but

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I know he had a book. As a matter of fact, I think he had two or three of them. But I am not sure of the cover part of it, but I do know that he had a notebook of some sort.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you Exhibit 5305-B, which purports to be a photograph of a page of that notebook. Can you read the names on there?
Mr. SENATOR. Leonard, isn't that right? That is Leonard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I just want to know if you have difficulty reading them.
Mr. SENATOR. Frank Barber.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you do have some difficulty reading the names.
Mr. SENATOR. Frank Barber or Barber.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me read the names to you and ask you if you recognize any of them.
Mr. HUBERT. May I make this suggestion?
(Discussion off the record..)
Mr. SENATOR. I know some of the names on there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting on that page?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize Jack Ruby's handwriting?
Mr. SENATOR. It probably could be Jack's, I guess.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But would you recognize Jack's handwriting?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't think, offhand, I would, but I assume these probably are Jack's hand, writings, I guess.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, did you know Frank Barber?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack speak or did you know Milt Jaffe?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know of any friend Jack had named Barney?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Pauline?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Pauline Hall?
Mr. SENATOR. Now, you may ask me some names. I may know, the face but I may not recognize the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any people that worked at the Vegas Club?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, Pauline Hall; yes, I do. I am glad you mentioned that. Pauline worked at times at the Vegas Club, if that is her last name. I am not sure. Now, I know her first name was Pauline, so it might be Pauline Hall, if that is her last name, but she worked at the Vegas Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say she worked there at times?
Mr. SENATOR Yes; not steady. I wouldn't say she worked there steady. There were times I walked in there with Jack at night on a weekend I have seen her working, and then there are other times I haven't seen her working.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Billy Brook?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Bobbie Patterson?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I have heard of that name, but I can't think who it is. I think I have heard of that name. I think I have heard of that name Bobbie Patterson, but I can't refresh my mind. It seems I have heard that name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Howard Foster?
Mr. SENATOR No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sammy Tucker?
Mr. SENATOR. No. Would it be easier, you know, what you want to do, would it be easier if I could pick up the ones I knew?
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you could read them. Could you go through there and pick out the ones you know, and indicate to me if there are any on there you can't read.
Mr. SENATOR. What is this? Is this Goody?
Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like Grady to me, but I am not sure.
Mr. SENATOR. Fred Fillman, I don't know who he is.. You want me to sound out the names, don't you?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Just comment on the ones you recognize.
Mr. SENATOR. What does this say? It looks like Rita.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like Ruth Shay.
Mr. HUBERT. You had better make reference to the document you are talking about. Let the record show the comments of the witness are with reference to Exhibit 5305-F.
Mr. SENATOR. Here is one that says Pauline. That may be Pauline Hall, I don't know. I have heard that name. I don't know who she is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What name are you talking about?
Mr. SENATOR. Tex DeLacy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Take a look at 5305-G and tell me if you recognize the name R. T. Brown on there.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don't know who that is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you 5305-H.
Mr. SENATOR. There is no other names on there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right. 5305-H, do you recognize any of the names on there?
Mr. SENATOR. What is that, Joseph Rossi?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know him. The rest are just figurations here, numbers or moneys.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Take a look at 5305-I. There is the name Tom Palmer.
Mr. SENATOR. Tom Palmer, I think he is the booking agent in Dallas. In other words, he books. Not the booking agent. I have got to find out how to classify him now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what he does.
Mr. SENATOR. He is with, I think he is with AGVA.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And that is the American Guild of Variety Artists?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I believe he has an office in Dallas. Let me see how he is classified. How do you classify him? I guess he has something to do with the acts, you know, the working hours, and the pay.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of the entertainers?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you met Tom Palmer?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you met him?
Mr. SENATOR. I have seen him in the Carousel, or occasionally on the street, or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many different occasions would you say you have met him?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I have seen him maybe a dozen times or so, maybe more. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you first meet him through Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; because when he came up there, he always went to Jack, you know. I mean, he had no occasion to come to me or anything of that nature, but he always came to Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any particular dealings Jack had with him in the few weeks before Oswald was shot?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you Exhibit 5305-J, and I will ask you if you recognize any of the names on there.
Mr. SENATOR. What is this, Grace Wilkins, the first one? Is that what that says? I don't know her, but is that what it says?
Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like Grace Wilkins; yes. Do you recognize that name?
Mr. SENATOR. No. And Woodruff, I don't know who that is. But, mind you, I want you to bear in mind I may know these people and don't know the names. I may know them if I see their face.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. J. B. Gruber, I don't know who he is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will hand you Exhibit 5305-K and ask you if you recognize any of the names on there.
Mr. SENATOR. KLIF radio station.
Mr. GRIFFIN. KLIF?

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Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I have heard of the name Harrigan. I don't know if Harrigan is KLIF, I am not sure. It says disk jockey. I knew he was something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you met him?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't think I have ever met him, but I have heard of that name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack talk to you about him?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know how I heard of it. Very possibly he may have, but I have heard the name. I know I have heard the name before. I don't know who this other is. I believe it says Chuck Dunnaway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that name?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I am not familiar with these. I am not familiar with these.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Alex Gruber?
Mr. SENATOR. No. As I say, I may know him by face, but I am not familiar with the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you Exhibit 5305-M and ask you if you recognize the names on there. I might state for the record that 5305-L is a duplicate of 5305-K, and that is why I didn't hand it to the witness.
Mr. SENATOR. Here it says Nick Turman. The reason I say that, I happen to know somebody by the name of Buddy Turman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Buddy Turman?
Mr. SENATOR. Buddy Turman, I believe, is out on the West Coast. He used to be the light heavyweight or heavyweight champion of Texas, a real fine fellow. That is why I say I don't know Nick.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was he a friend of Jack's?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he was of Jack's sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet Turman through Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Through Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know if I met Turman through Jack. No, I met him some other place. I met him some other place. I can't think where I met him, but I didn't meet him through Jack, but I have seen him at Jack's place. As a matter of fact, he has helped Jack every now and then. This Nick Turman, I don't know if this is related to him or what it is. I am not familiar with the name Nick. You have got a Norma here, and I know a name Norma, and I can't place it; I wonder if this is somebody who ever worked for him, Norma.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Buddy Turman have any particular dealings, that you know of, with Jack Ruby in the last month or so before----
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, Buddy has been gone quite a while. He went to the West Coast. As a matter of fact, the last time I saw Buddy he said he was going to the West Coast to train, because from there now I don't know if it ever materialized--from there he was going to England to fight. I can't think of that heavyweight fighter.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Bruce Wilcox?
Mr. SENATOR. No. Name a couple more. This one fighter didn't fight too long ago. You may have seen him on TV. He is the type that fights very awkward, and sort of a slap like. Do you remember who that is?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No, I don't. Now, did Jack Ruby have an interest in prize-fighting?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I would say that he liked the fights. He liked to watch them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But he never expressed any particular interest to you?
Mr. SENATOR. No, but he liked to watch the fights.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever tell you about any interest he had in the fight game when he was a younger man?
Mr. SENATOR. I know that he used to carry Barney Ross' bag around. How young he was or what age, in Chicago, I don't remember. But I know it was as a youngster.
I assume this first name, Tammi, is Tammi True, and I assume the other one is Little Lynn; right? These are only first names. This says Tammi, so I assume that must be Tammi True, and Lynn, that might be Little Lynn.
Wait; I haven't gone through the rest. There is a Dick Lenard there, and I think this man is a booking agency. I think he is.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. For entertainers?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, if it is the same Dick Lenard. I don't know the rest of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 5305-N, and ask you to look at the names on there and tell us if you recognize any of them.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this is a Murray Wynn, who owns, I assume, because it says The Smoker's Lounge, and I know the place, but I never knew his last name. I assume it is the right one. He owns a tobacco and pipe store.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What dealings did Jack have with him?
Mr. SENATOR. None that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack didn't smoke, did he?
Mr. SENATOR. No. He probably just met him like he meets a lot of people, I assume. I have heard of this Grant Koch. I have heard of the name, but I don't know who he is. It is a name I remember hearing at one time or another; and I don't know who this Kierney Aikens is. I don't know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A-I-k-e-n-s?
Mr. SENATOR. Ai-k-e-n. I don't who he is. What does this say here? This is pretty hard to read. Do you see this one right here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like Donald Wiley. Do you recognize that name?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will read you the other names on here. Pauline Foch.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Etheridge?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ray Hawkins?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sue Blake?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don't know her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not going to hand you the next exhibit, which is 5305-0, because there are no names written on there of any persons. And I am not going to hand you Exhibit 5305-P. I will take that back. I will hand you that. There is a name "Bishop" written there. Does that name mean anything to you?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I have heard of the name, but I don't know who it is. I don't know what that is. I believe I have somewheres heard of that name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to read to you from Exhibit 5305-Q, and tell me if you recognize any of these names. Monte?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mike Shore?
Mr. SENATOR. Mike Shore? Is there an address or something that goes with it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Dr. Uhlevitch?
Mr. SENATOR. Does it say what he is?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No.
Mr. SENATOR. Is he local, Dallas?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I presume so.
Mr. SENATOR. What is the exchange?
Mr. GRIFFIN. It doesn't give an exchange, just the name.
Mr. SENATOR. Uhlevitch?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that name?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Stanley Kaufman?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he is a lawyer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you met him?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I have never met him, but I know who he is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to Jack about him or has Jack talked to you about him?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he is, I believe, a civil attorney, and I know that Jack has always called him for conferences of some nature or another, whatever it may be, but I wasn't----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a personal friend of Jack's?

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Mr. SENATOR. I assume that he has known Jack for some time. Now how personal, I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea whether Jack was as close to Kaufman as you were to Jim Martin, for example?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know, but I know that--as a matter of fact, even now during the trial, trying to get the new trial now, I know that they keep in contact with Kaufman. So I don't know what you want to actually call close. You know I can't tell you what close is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about John Hilt?
Mr. SENATOR. I never heard of that name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Dick Shepard?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don't know that, either.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Abe Klinman?
Mr. SENATOR. Abe Klinman is a CPA. I know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he do work for Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. He has done some work for Jack.
Mr. WILSON. Jerry Wilson?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know that name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mike Riaf?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tom Palmer's name is on here, but you have talked about that.
Mr. SENATOR Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ed Pullman?
Mr. SENATOR. Ed Pullman; yes. Ed Pullman; his wife had worked for a short spell as a cocktail waitress. She is an elderly woman. Ed Pullman, he is a man who thinks up gadgets, you know. I don't know how to describe it. He is an idea man.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A promoter?
Mr. SENATOR. Things that he makes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. An inventor?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; in that classification.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Jack have any business dealings with Ed Pullman?
Mr. SENATOR. The only thing is--no; no business dealings. The only thing is he had a show once, Ed Pullman, like a market show--you know what I mean, sort of an exhibit like where people come to look-- exhibits.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of things did he exhibit?
Mr. SENATOR. Things that he had made, to show and see what he could do with them. In other words, he wasn't manufacturing them, but he had already made these things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he exhibiting these items?
Mr. SENATOR. At a place called Market Hall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Ed Pullman----
Mr. SENATOR. Ed Pullman exhibited a thing for him that Jack was trying to promote.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was that?
Mr. SENATOR. This is what they call--what do they call the little thing? It is a little twistaboard. It is a little square twistaboard, and you get on it and it moves around like this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It is a weight reducer, like?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; a twister.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long had Jack Ruby been promoting this twistboard?
Mr. SENATOR. It never came to the promotion part. I would assume that he fooled around with it for about a month, I guess, something like that, as a rough guess. In other words, he was going to buy them. I think somebody was going to make them for him, and he was going to try and sell them.
Mr. GRIFFIN And for a month, what would this month cover, from the 1st of November to the time that he shot Oswald, or before the 1st of November?
Mr. SENATOR. No; it was either September or October, somewheres in there. I will have to take it to the extension of these 2 months.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it fall through somewhere along the line? Did he lose interest in it, or something?

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Mr. SENATOR. It never materialized. In other words, look, he had competition because there was one already out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who designed this twistboard?
Mr. SENATOR. I think it was manufactured by somebody in, I don't know the name of the place, in Fort Worth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else was associated with Jack in the twistboard project?
Mr. SENATOR. Nobody. This is something that never really got off the ground. See, I think Jack had--what was it--maybe four or five or six dozen of the things. I just don't remember. But it never got off the ground.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He bought these, and then what was he going to do with them?
Mr. SENATOR. He was going to have them manufactured to resell.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he buy them from some place other than Fort Worth, or from Fort Worth?
Mr. SENATOR. I am not sure whether he bought them from Fort Worth or some place else. I don't know just where he got them from.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of material were they made out of?
Mr. SENATOR. It was a compressed--I don't know what you would call it--it was a compressed thing. In other words, let me say that it was about this size here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating about a foot long?
Mr. SENATOR. Approximately about a foot square.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A foot square?
Mr. SENATOR. Approximately about a foot square, and on the bottom of it--this is a compressed thing. I don't know if you call it a compressed board, or what you call it. There was a compression. Then on the bottom of it it had, I believe, a steel roller with ball bearings in it, on the bottom, so the thing could revolve. Under that was another piece of staple, where it was staple. In other words, it had to hold the weight of an individual
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was something that you would lean up against?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no. It was on the floor, and you just got on it like that, and you go--I am not a good exhibit for a twister.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, you would stand on this board?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, you would stand on it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You wouldn't put it up against your back, or anything?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You would stand of it?
Mr. SENATOR. Strictly stand on it, and it was a novelty.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the bottom part would remain stationary?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the other part would swivel as you moved on it?
Mr. SENATOR. That is right. In other words, instead of going in the twist, this thing did it for you. In other words, you revolved and, of course, this was classified as an exerciser, or something of that nature. As I say, it never got off the ground.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To your knowledge, nobody else was involved in the promotion of it with Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. No; definitely not; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about John Newman? Do you recognize that name?
Mr. SENATOR. John Newman works for the Herald or the Times, the Herald or the News. He works for either the Dallas Morning News--I forgot now--or the Herald.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to know him?
Mr. SENATOR. I met him on occasion when Jack used to go up there to place an ad once in a while, when I was living with him in 1962, you know, I went up there with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Newman at the Carousel Club?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know if I have or not. I just don't remember. I couldn't say yes or couldn't say no. I just don't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to read to you the names that are on Exhibit 5305-R. Bill Petty. Do you recognize that name?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I have heard of that name, but don't know who it is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Bill Cantrell?

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Mr. SENATOR. No; I don't know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Gladys?
Mr. SENATOR. Gladys who?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all it says.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. J. B. Herred?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Oscar Newman?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to read to you the names that are on Exhibit 5305-S. Gloria Rettig?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Little Lynn you have mentioned.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Vicky Williams?
Mr. SENATOR. Vicky Williams; I don't know that name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the photographs that pertain to the Aladdin notebook. I am going to hand you what has been marked for identification as Exhibit 5309-A, and this is a Xeroxed copy of another notebook that has on the front cover, "This is a Robinson reminder. Jot it down. Do It. Tear it. Live notes only."
I am going to hand you this and ask you to tell me, first of all, go through it and tell me if you remember ever seeing that notebook.
Mr. SENATOR. I think I have seen the cover of this. These are little tear things out, aren't they, you tear them out?
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to what appears to be perforated segments.
Mr. SENATOR. Isn't that what it is? That is what it looks like.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the front page. I believe that is right.
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard of the name Sue Pepper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are looking at the first page of that notebook?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you are going to identify the names?
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard of the name. I don't know who it is. A lot of the names I heard, but I just don't know who they are. Does this say Jack Hanover? This is a little hard to read.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yanover, I think.
Mr. SENATOR. Carroll Walker I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know a Jack Hanover?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I don't know the balance of these in here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting on that page?
Mr. SENATOR. I think it is Jack's. I assume it is. I am not sure, but I assume it is. It all looks like the same. I have seen the cover of a book like this. Now, the insides of it I have never seen, but I think I have seen it on him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are turning to the next page. Does that have a small numeral down at the bottom of that page? It has numeral 3. It is actually the second page on which there is any writing.
Mr. SENATOR. Wally what?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Rack--R-a-c-k? Do you know a Wally Rack?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know anything about the Doctors Club?
Mr. SENATOR. The Doctors Club?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I never knew there was a Doctors Club in Dallas. What is Linda's last name?
Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like----
Mr. SENATOR. Kuhox?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Kuhox.
Mr. SENATOR No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does anything like that ring a bell?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I don't know anybody here. He has some first names here, I don't know what they mean. Brenda and Angie.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of those first names?

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Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's turn to the page that is numbered 4.
Mr. SENATOR. I know Bill Willis. Bill Willis was the drummer in the band at the Carousel Club. Tom Palmer is here again.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You talked about him.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Kathy Kay is a stripper. Andy is the boy. I assume that is Andy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Andy Armstrong?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I assume the first name Kathy is Kathy Kay; right?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't know.
Mr. SENATOR. That is what I think it is anyhow. I don't know. This girl, I never knew her last name, but this could have been a former stripper of some time back, this Lauri.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Lauri?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does Lauri have a last name?
Mr. SENATOR. There is a last name here, but I don't know who.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the last name?
Mr. SENATOR. Womack, W-o-m-a-c-k. I knew a Lauri, I think, that was a stripper for him for a while. I think it was last summer if I am not mistaken, or something like that. Russ Knight.
Mr. GRIFFIN. K-n-i-g-h-t?
Mr. SENATOR. He is with a radio station, but I can't think which one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you met him?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I knew Russ.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you met him?
Mr. SENATOR. I have met him--I have seen him at the bowling alley when we used to go up there at night. I have seen him on rare occasions when he would come down to the Carousel. He was, I guess you would call him, a disc jockey.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you bowl with?
Mr. SENATOR. Sometimes people very seldom, mind you, very seldom--but sometimes people from the club which was very seldom. As a matter of fact, I only bowled one time, I believe. It wears me out particularly. But very seldom.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack bowl frequently?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he bowl more than you did?
Mr. SENATOR. Maybe a little more. I'll tell you, this particular alley is a tremendous place in Dallas, but we always went up there to eat, on occasions, when we did go. It was always we would go up there to eat. They had a big restaurant there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What eating places did Jack frequent?
Mr. SENATOR. A lot of times when he went out, the majority of the times when he went out I wasn't with him when he went out to eat. But he has been to--of course, it probably pertains to the time of day or night, you know, but he ate in the waffle shops, he ate at--wait; it will come to me in a minute. There is a couple on Commerce just above the Adolphus Hotel. What in the world is the name of it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. The Egyptian Lounge?
Mr. SENATOR. He has ate at the Egyptian Lounge, but there is a couple in the downtown area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That he ate at regularly, I take it?
Mr. SENATOR. It is not, particularly. I can't say regularly. I don't know. Let me say he just varies the place. He may want to try certain foods, I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack visit the Dallas Cabana?
Mr. SENATOR. Dallas Cabana? What in the world is the Dallas Cabana?
Mr. GRIFFIN. The Cabana Motel.
Mr. SENATOR. The Cabana?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; Jack has been down there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he have friends there?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know if he has friends there or not. He certainly probably

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does know some people there. Yes; there is one chap he knew there that I know for sure, and I think he was the assistant, if he is still there, was the assistant manager. There is Ralph Paul. Of course, I am certain you have heard of his name before, Ralph Paul.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; Ralph we talked about earlier. How often would Jack see Ralph?
Mr. SENATOR. Ralph would come up, I would probably say he would probably come up maybe two or three times a week, about like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would they telephone each other during the week also?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say they have. I mean, not that I was always around when he did, if he did telephone him, but I am certain there were telephone calls.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have any occasion to telephone Ralph Paul?
Mr. SENATOR. Did I ever have occasion?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I called him, yes; I called him a couple of times. The reason I called him, I had no car, I had to go down and see him once in a while, a free lunch. He has got this place in Arlington, if you know where Arlington is, called the Bullpen. It is one of these barbecue places.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to Ralph Paul on the weekend of the 22d, 23d, and 24th of November?
Mr. SENATOR. By phone?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about in person?
Mr. SENATOR. It may have been possible that I may have seen him. I just don't recall if I have seen him on that weekend. I can't say yes or no, but it may have been possible that I may have seen him at the club. Oh, no; the club wasn't even open.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was after the President was killed?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; no, I don't think I did. I don't think I have seen him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You seem to have some recollection, though, that you might have.
Mr. SENATOR. No; let's see. No; I saw him, I think the first time I saw him was, it may have been, I would say within the week. I can't name a date or a day. But I will say within the week after the Ruby shooting up at the Carousel. That is about the best that I can recollect on that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall talking to Little Lynn at any time on Friday, Saturday, or Sunday, November 22, 23, or 24?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn't even see her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know her husband?
Mr. SENATOR. No; but I have seen him--if it is her husband--sort of a blond. I will tell you where I have seen him. I saw him the day of that trial when she was carrying that gun, he come up with her, if it is her husband or if it is her boy friend, I don't know what.
The reason I say that, because to the best of my knowledge I don't even know if she wore a marriage band. But I have seen him. I think he is sort of a blondish-haired fellow. I don't even know his name. I am through with this. Do you want the next page, page 6?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; go ahead.
Mr. SENATOR. There is a Joe Slayton here. Of course, Joe Slayton--this Joe Slayton, I know him by sight but I don't know him by conversation. Wally Weston, he was an MC of his. I know this guy only by reading about him, Earl Wilson, the New York Post. I don't know him. I believe this Tony Tuner here, this name is a stripper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. T-o-n-i?
Mr. SENATOR. T-o-n-i it says here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You think that is a stripper?
Mr. SENATOR. Tony Turner is T-o-n-y. I think that is how she spells her name. This says Tony, T- o-n-y, Tuner. It could be a man. I don't know. I am only guessing at this one here. Tammi True, I know her. This is a stripper. Then there is Kay here. I don't know if that is Kathy Kay, or what it is. That is all

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I know on this one. One here says Porter. I don't know what that is. I don't know what that means, if that is a porter, or what it is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't know, either. How about page 7? Let me just read off the names and see if you recognize them. Phil Olian?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Wendy Knight?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Wanda?
Mr. SENATOR. Just a girl's name?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I think, I am not sure now; I think he had a cocktail waitress by the name of Wanda, if I am not mistaken, at one time. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Janice Anderson?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ann Petta?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. L. H. McIntyre?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jim Brown?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Carlos Camorgo?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know of any acquaintances Jack had in Mexico City?
Mr. SENATOR. Where?
Mr. GRIFFIN. In Mexico City. Did you know of any acquaintances he had in Mexico City?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any trips that Jack took?
Mr. SENATOR. To Mexico City?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Not while I knew him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any foreign trips that he has taken?
Mr. SENATOR. No, but I have heard at some time that he went to Cuba. Now, that is before my relation with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear this from Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I have heard it, I don't know if I read it in the newspapers or where I read it, but I know I heard it at one time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk to you about Cuba at all?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about someone named Billie?
Mr. SENATOR. B-i-l-l-i-e?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Is that a man or a woman?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't know.
Mr. SENATOR. Is there a telephone number?
Mr. GRIFFIN. FE 9-7914? Toni Rebel?
Mr. SENATOR. I think that is a stripper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Bill Towney? Bill Towney, WH 2-8129?
Mr. SENATOR. Bill Towney?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Shirley Nole?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Margo?
Mr. SENATOR. Let me place this Margo. This is a cocktail waitress that he had, if it is here. It is a cocktail waitress that he had at one time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Kitty Keel?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mary Martin?
Mr. SENATOR. It sounds like the one from Hollywood. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ethel A. Piersol?

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Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Gail Thompson?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sam George?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Margie?
Mr. SENATOR. Margie was a cocktail waitress that he had, if it is the same one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Peggy Steel?
Mr. SENATOR. Peggy Steel was a stripper that he had at one time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. John M. Crawford?
Mr. SENATOR. Don't know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This man has an address, Huntsville State Penitentiary.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of any friends Jack had there?
Mr. SENATOR. No, and I don't want to hear of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Linda?
Mr. SENATOR. I think Linda could have been a cocktail waitress.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Avrum?
Mr. SENATOR. Never heard of that name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sherry?
Mr. SENATOR. I am trying to figure if Sherry was a stripper. I am not sure. I can't make it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Henry Segel? This man is from Chicago.
Mr. SENATOR. I wouldn't know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Roy Pike?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mickey Ryan?
Mr. SENATOR. Mickey Ryan, I know Mickey Ryan. Of course, Mickey Ryan lives in California. He is in California. Mickey Ryan used to sell cars, and he worked, the last job I think he worked at, he worked at a club for a while.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, a private club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say he is in California or from California?
Mr. SENATOR. From California, and back there. He is back in California.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But he was in Dallas at the time that the President was shot?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know if he was, before or after. No, I don't really know. He may have been, now. I think he was after.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to return to California?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know. He said he was going back to California. I met him one day, and he said he was going back to California. Now, why, I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet him before you went to New York to live with your sister?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure; yes. I never same him after I come back. I saw him last year. It could have been, it may have been November or December. I think it may have been December.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So some time after----
Mr. SENATOR, I think the last time I saw him was after the incident, if I remember right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And at that time, and this was before you left New York to live with your sister?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or left Dallas to live with your sister?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I think it was in December the last time I saw him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He told you at that time he was moving to California?
Mr. SENATOR. He said he was going back to California.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you why?
Mr. SENATOR. No; no particular reason why.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what acquaintanceship or relationship he had with Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. As a friend.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they have any business dealings?
Mr. SENATOR No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever work for Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. He may have helped him a little bit. Now, I am not sure. I think he helped him for a very short while in the Carousel, if I remember, but it was a very short while. Now, how long it was, I don't know. It was just a short while, though, I think he helped him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Lisa Starling?
Mr. SENATOR. I knew a girl by the name of Lisa, and I can't place it. I am not familiar with the last name. I am trying to figure who, a Lisa I knew. Now, I knew a Lisa Lynn. Lisa Land I think it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But Gail Hall, Monroe, La.?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk about any friends he had in Louisiana?
Mr. SENATOR. Gail Hall?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Is there a city?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Monroe, La.
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard him mention Monroe, La.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In what connection have you heard him mention Monroe?
Mr. SENATOR. I think he met a girl once in Dallas that came from Monroe. Now, if this is the girl or not, I am not sure. I think he met a girl. I am not sure if he met her at the club, or where it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What about H. G. Tiger?
Mr. SENATOR. Tiger?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. E. Fletcher, F-l-e-t-c-h-e-r?
Mr. SENATOR. E. Fletcher?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Is there an address or something?
Mr. GRIFFIN. 40 Central Park, something or other.
Mr. SENATOR. 40 Central Park?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Central Park, and I don't know what.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know. There is a fellow I knew by the name of Ernie Fletcher. I don't know E. Fletcher.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a friend of Jack Ruby? Does he know Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know. I mean, I have never seen him with Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know him in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. I knew him in Dallas, yes. I have seen him in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do?
Mr. SENATOR. I haven't seen him in a long, long time, because the last I heard, I think he was living in New York.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do?
Mr. SENATOR. I never knew what he did. He was a promoter, but what, I don't know. I think he was an oil promotor or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Darrell Williams?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on page 9 of this particular notebook that we have been looking at, there is the name Vivian, Statler Barbershop.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; there is a manicurist there by the name of Vivian.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack frequent the Statler Barbershop?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know. The barbershop he frequented the most was a place in another section of town.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?
Mr. SENATOR. Loma Alto.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It may have been called the Loma Alto?
Mr. SENATOR Yes; it is two words, the Loma Alto section.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What general part of Dallas is that, northeast, southwest, Love Field?
Mr. SENATOR. Let me say it was on the way up to that way, Love Field.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Towards Love Field from downtown Dallas?

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Mr. SENATOR From downtown. I tell you, the best way I can describe it to you is it ran off of--I have got a good memory, haven't I? You are writing that down, too? I can't think of the name of the street. I'll tell you why he went to this barbershop, which I never knew.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Mr. SENATOR. When the barber cuts his hair, he doesn't like clippers. He won't let them use a clipper. He wants everything by hand, and he could probably drive a barber crazy the way he wants his hair cut. To my knowledge, I don't think he lets a barber shave. You know how the barber shaves you back here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. He won't let him shave the back of his neck?
Mr. SENATOR. You know why? I'll tell you why. Because he grows hair too fast.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is what Jack told you, that your hair grows too fast when it is shaved off?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; you know how some of the hairs will grow in the rear of a person, like mine, I have got a few, the barber will shave them off. He wants them clipped off.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So he requires the back of his neck to be clipped rather than shaved?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now, he has got a barber, he has got this barber who knows just what to do with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack concerned about baldness?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, you should only know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us.
Mr. SENATOR. He used to drive me crazy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that.
Mr. SENATOR. Well, he would have these treatments. I don't know the name of the place where he got these treatment, and he had the stuff, you know, they'd rub into his head, whatever this medication, I don't know what the stuff was, you know.
I have always seen him use it, whatever it was, and he would rub it into his head. He spent 45 minutes under a shower when he was really working with the stuff, and he would rub it into his head. He was always combing his hair all the time, what little was left, but he couldn't stand being bald.
He used to comment, "How does my hair look; how does my hair look?" And it was really funny. I used to laugh, but he would get mad when I laughed at him. But he was very, very particular about his hair.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he been this way all the time that you knew him, or was this something that had come on?
Mr. SENATOR. No; this is, of coarse, as long as, you knew, as long as I have known him. Actually, I can't say as long as I have known him, but as long as I have been around him. Oh, man.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And he actually had some treatments for his hair, didn't he?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure, sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were these called trichology treatment, or something like that?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know the nature of the word they used.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he go to some practitioner?
Mr. SENATOR Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who worked on his head?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he went to somebody, he actually went. And I believe he picked up all his medication from him, too. They came in plastic tubes, a little vial like. I would probably say these tubes would hold approximately maybe about half a pint. He had two different types whatever they were; one was wash and one was rinse, or what it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And he would use these on his head?
Mr. SENATOR Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And was this a daily thing that he did?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any particular ritual, any period of time of the day that he would do this?
Mr. SENATOR. No; it was just whatever time, not particularly. It could

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be in the morning, but I would say it was about every day, once a day some time, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you told us yesterday, I believe it was, that Jack would spend 45 minutes in the bathroom, or something like that, he was very slow getting up in the morning, was this part of the procedure?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know if he did it that day or not. I don't remember if he did it that way, but I tell you, when he gets in the bathroom when he is going through the entire ritual, he takes longer than a woman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Part of this ritual would involve this scalp treatment?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Hair treatment?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What else was involved in the ritual?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, of course, the door was close, you know. I am not actually watching him. Of course, the shave and the shower.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he shower every day?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; sure. I will tell you when he really did his big cleaning up was at night, before going to work. That was when the big ritual was, he spent a big time in there. But it was really something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The next one I am going to hand you is Exhibit 5204. This was used in the deposition of C. L. Crafard. I don't believe there are any other marks on here. I am going to ask you to look at this notebook, or rather, the Xerox pages of a notebook, and ask you, first of all, generally if you recognize that notebook?
Let me say that the notebook, if you will turn to the first page of all those papers that are put together, and look at that first page carefully, you will see that the notebook had written on the cover just the word "Addresses," and, of course, we can't tell from what color the notebook was or what material it was made out of, how it was bound, although it appears to be not a loose leaf kind of notebook but one that was perhaps stitched at the back or something.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ever recall anything like that?
Mr. SENATOR I know he had two or three of those little things. Like I told you before, I knew he had two or three of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting in this particular notebook?
Mr. SENATOR I assume it is Jack's.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don't actually recognize it as Jack's?
Mr. SENATOR. I am not sure, but I assume it is Jack's. To me they sort of all look like the same handwriting, so I assume they are his.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, look at the first page that has writing on it, which actually in this exhibit is numbered page 2, and tell us, do you recognize any of the names there?
Mr. SENATOR. There is one here, and the reason I recognize this name here, Patricia Stevens, because Patricia Stevens I think is a modeling school.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. In Dallas?
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Jack deal with that modeling school?
Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't recognize that name through any association you had with Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. No. That is the only way I would recognize the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any other names on that page?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Turn to the next page, which is page 3, and tell us if you recognize any of the names there.
Mr. SENATOR. There is a name here I am not sure of, but it says Thelma Brown. This could be a singer. I am not sure. Or Bertha Brown. I know there is a girl by the name of Brown who was a colored girl, who was a singer, and she has come pretty well up the line. Now, if this is the girl or not, I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she sing for Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. A long, long time ago when she was smaller. Now she is big time.

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Now, where she is singing I don't know. I don't know if that is her name, but I know there was a girl by the name of Brown.. I don't know if it was Thelma Brown, Bertha Brown, or whatever it is. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any other names on page 3?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Turn to page 4 and tell us if you recognize any of the names there.
Mr. SENATOR. No. There is only one other name there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Turn to the, next page. Is that page 5?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and I don't know who that is. It is just one name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What name is that?
Mr. SENATOR. Bill Capehart. I don't know who that is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to turn to page 6?
Mr. SENATOR. Bob Eisman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that name?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don't know who he is. There is nothing else but the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Do you want to turn to the next page, page 7. Do you recognize that name, Ham Faust?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 8; do you recognize the name there?
Mr. SENATOR. This boy here, he is resting in peace.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Martin Gimpel?
Mr. SENATOR. He died of a heart attack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he die?
Mr. SENATOR. He died, I would say, I would probably say a year and a half ago, which tore Jack apart because they were kids together all their life.
Mr. GRIFFIN. From Chicago?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He has been gone now about a year and a half, maybe 2 years, I am not sure, something like that. Now, the other name I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ann Gibson. What was Jack's relationship in Dallas with Mr. Gimpel?
Mr. SENATOR. He was a tool salesman. He traveled. He sold tools. Now, I have never seen him sell them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what kind of tools, household tools or industrial tools?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I think they were industrial tools. To my knowledge, I think that is what it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. Gimpel have a family in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he single?
Mr. SENATOR. When he came here, he didn't always stay here. I mean, I haven't known him that long, when I met him, but when he was here, I don't know how long he stayed. He stayed, and traveled. But in this area, or rather in the Dallas area, or wherever he was traveling, I don't know if it was in the State of Texas or out of it, or just where he traveled. Of course, he stayed with Jack because he didn't pay no rent.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack supported him?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 9.
Mr. SENATOR. There is a name here that I think is an entertainer. I am not sure, Trinidad, Colo. Wait a minute; that is Trinidad, Colo., but I knew somebody by the name of Trinidad. There was an entertainer. Cecil Hamlin.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is he?
Mr. SENATOR. He is with the union. Now, what capacity or what, I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which union?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know which union.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he friendly with Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know, because I have only seen the man one time in my life, and the time that I saw him I was introduced to him, not knowing who he was, down at the courthouse, at the courthouse.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that at the trial or the bail bond hearing, or something like that?
Mr. SENATOR. It was at this trial here, in the lobby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The Ruby trial?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I saw him in the lobby once. That is the only time I ever seen the man.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you had never seen him before?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I had never seen him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you had never heard Jack speak of him?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I have heard the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How had you heard Jack speak of him?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack has asked me to call him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In what connection?
Mr. SENATOR. There was somebody, there were a couple of people owed Jack some money, and he asked me to ask Cecil to see if Cecil would call them to get the money or pick up the money. He had a couple of hundred dollars out, and he wanted to ask him if he would be kind enough to collect it for him or try to collect it for him, or call them up, or something of that nature. I don't know the rest of them. Page 10.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of the names on page 10?
Mr. SENATOR. I think he had a stripper, a part-time stripper, at one time, I am not sure. Of course, I don't know if this is, but this says Grapevine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Grapevine, Tex.?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but I don't know. A girl by the name of Linda, but I never knew her last name, so I don't know if this is her or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 11.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know who this is. I have seen this name before on other pages, Jeanie. I don't know what that is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 12.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know who that is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 13.
Mr. SENATOR. Latin Band, is that what that says?
Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like that.
Mr. SENATOR. I am thinking of Larry, the kid who works at the club, but what would the Latin Band be? I don't know who that is. I don't know who this is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 14.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 15.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know who that is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This doesn't have a page number.
Mr. SENATOR. This is a repeat of the other.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A duplicate of the previous page?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don't say it is a duplicate of the page, but the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's read the name so that the record is complete. Pat Sancipian, Patricia Stevens. Xavier Cugat?
Mr. SENATOR. I know the name. Who don't know it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack never talked to you about him?
Mr. SENATOR No; where he got it, I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Turning to another page, which doesn't have a number on it, Sam Schwartz.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know who that is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Robyn Hoy Smith, Tom Teel?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know who that is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And turning to the last page, which is numbered 20, it simply says Elizabeth. You don't recognize that name?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you another book that is marked Exhibit 5202, which was used in the deposition of C. L. Crafard, and it is a blue spiral

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notebook with the word "Penway" written on the front. It is called a "Penway Memo Book." Look through that.
Mr. SENATOR. Is this Jack Ruby's book? I can't picture him writing like that. This is terrible handwriting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are looking now at the Crafard Exhibit No. 5202. Do you recognize the handwriting in that book?
Mr. SENATOR. There is only one person who I think possibly could write like this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is that?
Mr. SENATOR. I would have to guess, and say probably Andrew, maybe. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don't recognize it as Jack Ruby's handwriting?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't think it is. I don't think this is Jack Ruby's handwriting. Jack don't write this bad. This is terrible writing. I don't think that is Jack's handwriting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have had a chance to go through this notebook. You mentioned, looking at page 1 of Exhibit 5202, in which there is written some words such as "Save, Vegas Club, Jack's home," and so forth. And there is the name Buddy, with the words "Fort Worth" written after it, and a telephone number underneath. Do you recognize that?
Mr. SENATOR. This could be probably this guy that he was going to have, I imagine, I am not sure, probably made those twistboards.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name Buddy?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I have never seen him; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned the name St. Charles.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And St. Charles is written on this first page, with a telephone number under it. Do you recognize that?
Mr. SENATOR. That probably is his home number.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember St. Charles' number?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't remember the number offhand; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby ever have anything to do with Mr. St. Charles?
Mr. SENATOR. No; nothing whatsoever. He knew him. He used to go through and buy some medicine, or whatever it might be, a toothbrush, and things of that nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. St. Charles ran a drugstore?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he has a drugstore in the Statler Hilton Hotel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. St. Charles have any connection with Jack Ruby's twistboards?
Mr. SENATOR. No; nothing. Never knew he had a twistboard. I would venture to say that this book here, this is only one person I think who has a handwriting like that, that would write this here. This probably, this could be, though I have never seen this book, the handwriting looks like Andrew's, Andrew Armstrong, the colored boy. This is what I think it is. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. You made the remark that you know that St. Charles didn't know anything about the twistboards.
Mr. SENATOR. No; not to my knowledge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But have you talked with St. Charles since Ruby shot Oswald, and have you learned from St. Charles that he was unaware of the twistboards?
Mr. SENATOR.. I have seen St. Charles exactly one time since then.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What prompted you to make the statement that St. Charles didn't know anything about the twistboard?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say, to the best of my knowledge, he didn’t know anything about the twistboard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You would be surprised if he did?
Mr. SENATOR. If he did, I can't say. It is possible that he did, but I would say, to the best of my knowledge. I can't say positively. I don't think he did. Now, I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Turning over page 1, look at the names there. There are two names at the bottom of the page. You testified about Abe Klinman.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, the attorney. That is Earl Ruby, and Ed Pullman, which I mentioned before to you.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I can't even read the first name. It looks like Leona or Lena.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Leona?
Mr. SENATOR. Miller; is that who it is?
Mr. GRIFFIN. It might be.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know who that is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Clark Dotty?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Turning over to page 2, do you recognize any of the names on that page?
Mr. GRIFFIN. This says Mar-Din?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. This is another name, Henry Denture. I wouldn't know who that is. Earl Products.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will skip over the back of page 2 because there is nothing on there that you haven't talked about. Look at page 3.
Mr. SENATOR. I can't even understand what that last name is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to the first name on there.
Mr. SENATOR I don't know what it is anyhow, but I can't even read the last name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't recognize any of those names there?
Mr. SENATOR. No; that is Shay, I believe, isn't it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, Ruth Shay.
Mr. SENATOR. No. I think we talked about this one before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now on the back of page 3 you have mentioned Stanley Kaufman.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But there is a Riky Kasada.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Scotty Milles or Mills?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't recognize that?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. On page 4, Norma Bennett?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Judy Armstrong?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Burt Nelson?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Floyd Turman you mentioned previously.
Mr. SENATOR. Buddy Turman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the name?
Mr. SENATOR. No; his name is Buddy. Wait; he comes from Tyler, Tex. Yes, here it is. This says Buddy. I didn't know him by his first name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Floyd Turman is----
Mr. SENATOR. Buddy Turman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The other Turman we talked about is Nick Turman?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don't know who that is. Now, see, he is known by his fighting name, is Buddy Turman and, of course, that is all I recall. I never knew it was Floyd, but he is billed, and everything else, as Buddy Turman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the back of page 4 there is the name Buddy Heard. Did you know Buddy Heard?
Mr. SENATOR. Buddy Heard, yes. He is an entertainer who worked for Jack once, I would probably say about two years ago was the last time he was in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Has Jack maintained a relationship with him recently?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I would say it was approximately, it must have been approximately two years ago. He worked for him, I think, one time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you say "no" to my question about Jack maintaining a relationship with him recently?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know of any.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. How about any of the other names that you see there on the back of page 4? Do you recognize any of those?
Mr. SENATOR. What does this say? Is this Burt?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Burt. Did you know a Burt?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not going to direct your attention to page 5 because page 5 doesn't have anything on it. I believe it has nothing on it that we haven't already talked about. The back of page 5 has the name "Jerry Lindsay". Do you recognize that name?
Mr. SENATOR. No. Floorman, that is the man that worked on the floor or did some work for him, or something, but I don't recognize the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name of Leo? Do you know anybody named Leo?
Mr. SENATOR. Leo Tardi? He worked for Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his name?
Mr. SENATOR. I think it is Tardi. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he work for Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. The last time he worked for Jack, he had worked both clubs, you know, the Vegas and that one there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of work did he do?
Mr. SENATOR. After the shooting he worked up at the club at nights and, of course, he was a salesman in the daytime.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But what kind of work?
Mr. SENATOR. He took the tickets in, you know, the $2 admission fees.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he sell during the daytime?
Mr. SENATOR. I think clothing in a store.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what department store he worked for?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or what store?
Mr. SENATOR. No. It was in one of the downtown stores there. I don't know which one it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to pass over the front half of page 6 because there is nothing written on there that appears to be a name, and I will direct your attention to the back of page 6. Do you recognize any of the names there?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know him, at the radio station.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Dick Gifford?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize anything else on there?
Mr. SENATOR. What is this supposed to say?
Mr. GRIFFIN. S-c-h-r-o-l-1.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now look at the front of page 7. Do you recognize any of those names?
Mr. SENATOR. This particular Leonard I have mentioned to you before, the booking agent. The thing is to read these things. Who can read them?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me help you, if I can.
Mr. SENATOR What does the top one say?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Joe Roskydall.
Mr. SENATOR. Never heard of him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Dick Lenard you mentioned. E.J. Evans?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know. What is this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. W. E. Groveland?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Stevens Park Beauty Salon?
Mr. SENATOR No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Maisl Brothers?
Mr. SENATOR. Boy, I tell you, you do all right with them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The back of page 7, I will read these off to you. Ed McMulmore. Does that mean anything to you?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No.
Mr. SENATOR. McKinney?
Mr. SENATOR. No.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. The front of page 8; Leonard Wood?
Mr. SENATOR. Don't know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Milton Thomas?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Clarence McInnis?
Mr. SENATOR Don't know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. James Dotson?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. James T. Aycox?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Nothing on the back of page 8 or the front of page 9. Page 9, the back is blank. Page 10 is blank on both sides. Page 11 is a half sheet which is blank on both sides. Page 12 I won't direct your attention to because there are no names on there. The back of page 12, the only name that appears on here is Bill Remike. Does that mean anything to you?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Here is the name, Bobby Patterson.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On page 13. I will turn over to the back of page 13. There is the name, Tex Lacy, which we talked about before.
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard about that name, but I don't know what capacity Tex Lacy is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I said the back of page 13. Now on page 14, which is about a third of a sheet of paper, there is the name Frank Fisher. Did you know Frank Fisher?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Frank Fisher?
Mr. SENATOR. Frank Fisher was a trumpet player and the leader of his band at one time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of a band?
Mr. SENATOR. In the Carousel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what else did he do besides performance as a musician?
Mr. SENATOR. That is all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he an interior decorator?
Mr. SENATOR Not that I know of. If he was, that is news to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack talk to you or did you know in the week or so before the President was shot whether Jack was considering opening up any new night club?
Mr. SENATOR He had talked about one. I have never seen it. But he was talking about a location that he had mentioned on McKinney Avenue. I think this was a house type place and, as far as I know, nothing ever materialized or whatever it was going to be. This is the only thing I knew about it. He never took me over there. I have never seen it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How was Jack going to finance it?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know. That I didn't know. Possibly he may have been looking for a partner. I don't know, or how or what I don't know. You've got me there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I won't mention the back of page 14 because there is nothing there. Clark Boland, does that mean anything to you?
Mr. SENATOR. No; it seems that is a radio station there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Herman Flowers?
Mr. SENATOR, No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. K. Hamilton. That is the front of page 16.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Miller, Collins Radio?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Cody City Hall; do you now anybody by that name?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jimmie Rhodes, do you know him?
Mr. SENATOR The name sounds like I heard of it, but I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Wooldridge?
Mr. SENATOR. Never heard of him.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Bob Litchfield?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Moddy?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know that either.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the back cover is written the name Newton.
Mr. SENATOR. The only name I know of a Newton would be John Newton of the newspaper. If that is him or not, I don't know, because this is a telephone number, I assume, isn't it, but there is no prefix to it. Maybe this is it now. I don't even know if that is him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went out to look at the Earl Warren sign, "Impeach Earl Warren" sign, on Friday, or was it Saturday morning?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack write anything down?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't recall?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't remember. I didn't see him write anything down. I can't quote if he did or didn't, but I didn't see him.. I will put it that way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have any newspapers in the car with him?
Mr. SENATOR. That day?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I really don't know. I just don't refresh my mind if he did have any newspapers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you drive Jack's car?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he drove it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I suggest now we probably ought to break to two-thirty.
(Whereupon, at 12:50 p.m. the proceeding recessed.)


TESTIMONY OF GEORGE SENATOR RESUMED

The proceeding reconvened at 2:10 p.m.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will repeat what we say at the beginning of each session. We are taking this deposition under the same conditions that we started out with, and you are under the same oath that you have been under at the outset.
Just before we took a break for lunch we had been through a number of notebooks which had many, many names in them. Let me ask you about some other names.
Did you know or hear Jack mention a Lawrence Meyers?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This man would have been from Chicago and he would have been engaged in a sales capacity in sporting goods.
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, wait a minute. You mentioned sporting goods. That's right. I met someone up there. As a matter of fact, Jack got a pair of pushups from him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Barbells?
Mr. SENATOR. If it is Lawrence Meyers. I think that is the name. I am not sure. Barbells, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you met some man or you heard of some man?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who you think might be Lawrence Meyers?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I know who you mean. When you mentioned sporting goods, then it----
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to know of this man?
Mr. SENATOR. I met him at the Carousel one night when he was in town.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before Oswald was shot would that have been?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know. I think it was in the summer. I think it was this past summer. I think it was in the summer of 1963.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it have been in the month of November of 1963?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I think it was much longer, much before that. Well, it couldn't have been that. The reason I say that is because I wasn't living with Jack then.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In November of 1963 you were.

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Mr. SENATOR. I was living next door to Jack. I wasn’t living with him. When you mentioned--was it November?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No; because----
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you met this man you were not living with Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I was still living in my same apartment.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You met him----
Mr. SENATOR. I think this was some time in the summer, or maybe the latter part of the summer of 1963.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much time did you spend with this man in the Carousel?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, he was up at the Carousel. From there we went out and had a bite to eat, and that was it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And can you describe him? How old a man was he?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say he was 6 foot tall. I would say he is around about 6 foot. I don't remember the color of his eyes, black, brown, or blue. I don't remember. Either they are brown or blue. He had a good healthy build, now, of a normal man of that height.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How old a man was he?
Mr. SENATOR. I would have to say maybe in the late forties. I am not sure. I am certain it is in the forties, if anything, you know. It could jump up a little more. I would probably say he was in the----
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Jack happen to know this fellow?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know. That was the one time I saw him in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you learn about him?
Mr. SENATOR I didn't learn anything about him. I knew he was selling these things, sporting goods, I guess, of various natures. As a matter of fact, I heard him mention once that they had a plant or something like that in, I think, Bonham, Tex., or a plant or something out there too, which is maybe about 75 miles from Dallas, or an office there or a plant or something out there I know. I don't know what it is. Maybe it is a manufacturing plant they had there now. That was the only one time I saw him in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't have any idea how Jack came to meet this fellow?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I mentioned the name Alex Gruber.
Mr. SENATOR. Who?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Alex Gruber.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were going through the notebooks?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And I believe you indicated you didn't recognize that name.
Mr. SENATOR. Not the name; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me see if I can put this to you. Did you know of any friend Jack had in California who might have been at one time a truck driver?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don't. A truck driver?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you remember anybody that Jack was going to send a dog to in California?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don't. I have heard that mentioned before. I have heard it mentioned. I don't remember now if I read it in the newspaper or from mouth to ear or what it was, but I have heard that, that he was going to send it to somebody in California. Who it was, I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about L. J. McWillie?
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard of the name McWillie, but I don't know him. Is it McWillie?
Mr. GRIFFIN. M-c-W-I-1-l-I-e.
Mr. SENATOR. All I know is the name McWillie.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you know about that name?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't even know him. Never met him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you heard the name?
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard Jack mention the name in the club. He was an

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old friend of Jack's at one time or another. From where, what or how, I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any friends of Jack----
Mr. SENATOR. As a matter of fact, I thought McWillie was two names. I thought his first name was Mac and his last name was Willie. But, of course, I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any friends of Jack who are in jail presently in the penitentiary?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of a friend, a fellow who Jack had a business association with, who is now in the penitentiary on a sodomy charge?
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard that there is somebody. It might be Huntsville. It might be. I am not sure. I heard that somebody is down there. Now who the man is, I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack talk about him?
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard it mentioned quite some time ago, but who he is, I don't know. I don't know the man. As a matter of fact I don't even know the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you familiar with the name H. L. Hunt?
Mr. SENATOR. I think everybody is. He is one of the very wealthy men.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever mention having met him?
Mr. SENATOR. Not to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You know H. L. Hunt is politically active, he has a radio program.
Mr. SENATOR He is in everything. He is in many, many things, I understand; oh, well, I didn't know what all his activities are, but the name is like, when you hear the name, it is like listening to the name of the President--I mean that well known, I would say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever seen Jack with any literature that was put out by H. L. Hunt?
Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of offhand.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever heard Jack mention Lamar Hunt?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't think so. That is his son, I think. I don't think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, George, have you ever belonged to any political organizations?
Mr. SENATOR. Never, never.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't simply mean by that the Democratic Party or the Republican Party, but any kind of organization which was interested in some public issue, or something.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your practice with respect to using Jack's telephone?
Mr. SENATOR. What was what?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Your practice with respect to using Jack Ruby's telephone at home. I take it you used it to make local calls.
Mr. SENATOR. Once in a while; yes. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make long-distance calls, telephone calls, from Jack's home?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don't think I have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. By long distance I mean any toll call, even to Fort Worth.
Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of. I don't think I ever have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to call Ralph Paul from Jack's telephone?
Mr. SENATOR. I have called him, but I don't think I have ever called him from the house that I can remember, mind you. Now I don't know if I have ever or not. I can't quote and say "Yes, I did," or "Yes, I didn't."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to state whether or not on Friday, November 22, you made any long-distance phone calls from Jack's telephone?
Mr. SENATOR. On November 22?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; Friday, November 22.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't think so. I don't think I did.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the next day, on Saturday?
Mr. SENATOR. On Saturday?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make any toll calls on that day?
Mr. SENATOR I don't think so. When I say I don't think so, I don't remember if I did or not, but I don't think so. I don't want to say "No" positively or "Yes" positive, because I am not sure. I just don't think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember Saturday morning, November 23, do you remember whether Jack received any telephone calls that morning?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recall, for example, whether Larry Crafard called that morning?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't remember if he did or not. As I say, I can't be quoted, because I ain't positive. I can't say yes or no because I don't remember on that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first become aware that Larry Crafard was no longer in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. The following Tuesday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you find out about that?
Mr. SENATOR. When I went up there I asked Andrew one night, and I happened to remember that it was Tuesday, one of the things I do remember, and I said to Andrew, I said, "Andrew, where is Larry?" I said, "I didn't see him yesterday either," or something like that, to that effect, and he said he had left, and I said, "When did he leave?" He said he had left Saturday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Andrew know that?
Mr. SENATOR. He said--I think now he said he took $8 from the till, or something to that effect, and I think he left a note that he was leaving, something like that. These are not positive words, but I think this is what he said. Something to that effect. And that is the first time I ever knew.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Andrew have any explanation as to why Larry left?
Mr. SENATOR No; not that I know of. Incidentally, Andrew was back at the trial, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry?
Mr. SENATOR. I mean Larry, because Andrew lives in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; he was at the trial?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they said he hitchhiked in from Wisconsin or some place out there. I don't know where it is. They said he hitchhiked all the way back for the trial. That is what I heard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to him?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I talked to him when I was sitting on the witness bench one day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you why he came back to Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. No; but he said, he mentioned that he hitchhiked back, but he didn't say why he came back or anything of that nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything to you about why he left?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn't. I never asked him. As a matter of fact, I wanted to ask him, but I didn't. I couldn't imagine why he left. I believe he was on the witness stand. What happened, I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You know we were talking about what you did on Saturday.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. During the afternoon.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I have here in front of me a copy of a statement that you provided the Dallas Police Department. I notice in here that you say that you left the house around noon on Saturday.
Mr. SENATOR. Something like that; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And that you had some things to do. Now try to think back to when you talked with the police department. What things did you have to do on Saturday?
Mr. SENATOR. I can't imagine. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have anything to do in connection with your business?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn't work that day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any shopping to do other than for the groceries you bought?

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Mr. SENATOR. Well, I did that. I don't remember if I did that. I just wonder if I did the laundry. I normally do the laundry on Saturday or something. But I don't even recollect if I did that that day or not. I don't remember. I think I saw Jim Martin, but to the best of my recollection anything I did was only minute, just the passing of an afternoon, or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have some recollection of having seen Jim Martin on Saturday?
Mr. SENATOR I think I had a cocktail. I am not sure, but I think I had a cocktail with him, at the Burgundy Room. I think I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that have been in the afternoon?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; because he is around his office between somewhere between 12 and 1. I mean that is when he will leave, he won't leave before that, and if I remember right--I am not sure on that---but if I remember I think we may have had a cocktail at the Burgundy Room.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you do begin to have some recollection of having spent some time at the Burgundy Room?
Mr. SENATOR. I know I was there that day, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But I mean Saturday afternoon.
Mr. SENATOR I think I may have been there for a while, because I know later on that I met who I mentioned yesterday, Bill Downey, that I was there, and that we went some other place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Downey before----
Mr. SENATOR I think I saw Downey the latter part of the afternoon, or something like that, or the early part of the evening. I don't know if I met him in the latter part of the afternoon or when it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you----
Mr. SENATOR. It might have been in the early part of the afternoon. I am not sure. But I also met him later. It must have been around 8 or 8:30 when we went out together. I was at the Burgundy Room. Then we went to this other place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It is your recollection that you saw Downey then both in the afternoon and the evening?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I saw him in the afternoon, but the evening for sure. I think I saw him in the afternoon I am not sure. I think I made an appointment to meet him later, and then we would go out for a beer or two. This is what I think. I think now I am not sure on that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you troubled on Saturday over your having gone with Jack out to photograph this impeach Earl Warren sign?
Mr. SENATOR. Was I troubled when I went with him?
Mr. GRIFFIN. On Saturday did this trouble you in any way?
Mr. SENATOR. You mean Saturday afternoon?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. You mean did I think about it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I imagine that I would probably say that I had thought about it; yes. As a matter of fact, I thought about that thing many a time; I don't know why; I don't know why he wanted to go out that night and take these pictures. He never mentioned why he wanted to see it or why he wanted to snap the pictures.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't mention this to the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You did mention, however, that you went out with Jack and had coffee with him that morning?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; at the Southland Hotel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, this was all in sequence with having gone out to see that Earl Warren sign?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But what was it that made you omit to tell the police that?
Mr. SENATOR Nothing particularly. I don't know why. Just it was a shaken-up day for me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you worried that this might hurt Jack to talk about that particular episode?

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Mr. SENATOR. No. As a matter of fact, it would do him justice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you feel that way?
Mr. SENATOR. I think if a man is exploring somebody who put out a sign, whoever it may be, who would want to impeach Earl Warren, our Supreme Court Justice, or somebody who would put out these whys about the President the day he is coming here, which weren't good, the whys, I would say that this would be in favor of him of wanting to know these things, why should they be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How would that
Mr. SENATOR. Why would somebody want to impeach Earl Warren? For what reason? I don't know. I mean I don't have the answer to it. But why would a sign be put up there? Why did they want to impeach Earl Warren? Impeach him about what? I have asked myself this many times, but I don't know the answer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You see, it seems strange that you should have mentioned your going to the Southland Hotel and having coffee and that occurred immediately after you had gone out to see the Earl Warren sign and had also gone to the post office then I say I wonder how you could have forgotten it, once you had your mind on having one to the Southland Hotel. You know you didn't go right from your apartment to the Southland Hotel to have coffee.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know. I don't know why. I know I explained that to Elmer Moore one day, and I said, "Elmer," or "Mr. Moore," rather, when he was questioning me, I said, "Elmer, of course, the first day I had been shaken up," and I had mentioned to Mr. Moore when he took my text of the whole thing how going about the sign, the two signs, how these had bypassed my mind.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Two signs?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, when I say the signs, the billboard and the newspaper ad, when they took my statement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you talked to me on the telephone from New York, I guess it was on Monday----
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You asked me if I had a copy, or if I had seen the Bernard Weissman ad.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And I take it that in your mind this is a justification, this somehow is a justification or some assistance to Jack in his defense, the fact that he was interested in finding out about that advertisement and about the sign?
Mr. SENATOR. That's right. He wanted to know the whys. He wanted to know why somebody would want to impeach him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now is this a thought that has come to you after knowing, or after having talked with the attorneys and knowing what the strategy of the trial was going to be?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Talking with people?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or is this something that you felt almost immediately, that this would be a justification?
Mr. SENATOR. I thought definitely in my own thinking that this was a justification, because when I was put on the witness stand for the bond hearing in early, I think it was, December, I am not sure Just when it was, when I was questioned about that by Mr. Alexander, I told him that if anything this would be helping Jack, in wanting to know why something of this nature would want to be put out in Dallas. Why did the Dallas Daily Morning News want to accept an ad like this when the President was coming into town that day?
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went out with Jack, did Jack tell you at all what he was going to do with this information that he got?
Mr. SENATOR No; none whatsoever.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate that he might have been working for a newspaper?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Trying to do some freelance work for a newspaper?
Mr. SENATOR. No; there wasn't a thing mentioned. I say when Jack gets his mind set on something, he wants to know why, the information, the why.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it that you first learned that Jack had spent sometime at the police station on Friday night? Did you ever learn it?
Mr. SENATOR. You mean the Friday when he was bringing the sandwiches and things of that nature there?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. When did you first learn about that?
Mr. SENATOR I think it was after he woke me up that morning. I think that is when he told me, and I think he mentioned it, yes, and then he mentioned that he went to the synagogue there Friday and prayed for the President, and that he saw his sister, and they were both crying, as it was related to me, over the President.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't tell any of that to the----
Mr. SENATOR. To who?
Mr. GRIFFIN. To the police department when you talked to them on the 24th, did you?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't remember. See, yon must understand----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you take a look--well, go ahead.
Mr. SENATOR. You must understand when a person is grabbed the way I was grabbed, or I will say not particularly me, but any human being, wouldn't it shake a human being up?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it the police department asked you to tell them everything you knew about what Jack had done.
Mr. SENATOR. Let me say in the condition that I was in, I was pretty well shaken up at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you feel that his being at the police department might hurt him?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know. I didn't think about that. That didn't even enter my mind whether it did or not. All I know is he said he took sandwiches over there, and that is all I know on that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you also----
Mr. SENATOR. Now why he took it over there, I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You also didn't mention----
Mr. SENATOR. Maybe I forgot a lot of things at that particular time, being shook up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You also didn't mention in this statement that you gave the police department on the 24th----
Mr. SENATOR. Didn't what?
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the statement that you gave to the police department on the 24th.
Mr. SENATOR. I didn't mention what?
Mr. GRIFFIN. You did not mention anything about the telephone call from Little Lynn.
Mr. SENATOR. Maybe I forgot that, too. Look, I told you, I was in a shookup state that first day. Maybe I did forget about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am just wondering if these things, if you thought in your own mind that those events which you omitted----
Mr. SENATOR. Was I trying to hide something?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, could hurt Jack, and you wanted to help Jack.
Mr. SENATOR. I wasn't trying to hide anything. I definitely was not trying to hide anything. But you must understand, like I repeated, any individual in an event like this, now I can't speak for anybody else, but I would probably say they would be shaken up like I was, and I want you to know that I was really shook up, that that would make a lot of people forget a lot of things, and probably can't remember things, being grabbed that fast and being talked to that fast in that instantaneous--I was pretty well shaken up that day, very good.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you did remember Jack talking about the President and you mentioned you remembered that you thought you saw tears in his eyes, and you remember his saying he was going to take his dog Sheba down to the club. I am just wondering why it is you remembered some of these things, but you didn't remember some other things which were just, perhaps should have been just as graphic, like going out to that impeach Earl Warren sign--that must have just stood out as a sore thumb to you.
Mr. SENATOR. There was no particular reason. Now maybe a lot of things that

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I mentioned there that I possibly could have forgotten, too. There was no particular reason for it. There was nothing that I was trying to cover up or hide because I got nothing to hide.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not suggesting that in any sort of invidious sense.
Mr. SENATOR. It is just a shakeup of a fast brain, that is all, at the moment, when all these things were happening.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you what I have marked as "Washington, D.C., April 23, 1964, George Senator Deposition, Exhibit 5400," and I will sign my name to it. This is a copy of an affidavit which appears to bear your signature which was sworn to before William F. Alexander on November 24, 1963.
Mr. SENATOR. Is that the man who had me? I don't remember who it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is apparently the man who is a notary public who took this statement. Look it over. Read it if you would. I hand it to you now. Tell me if you remember signing that and if that is true.
Mr. SENATOR. That is, that is my signature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Read it through to make sure as best you can remember that that is a true copy of what you signed. It that a true copy of the statement you signed?
Mr. SENATOR. To the best of my knowledge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder then if you would sign that under my name. I hand you that pen back. As I understand it, then, immediately after you signed this statement before Mr. Alexander, you were then interviewed by an agent of the FBI.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you shaken up in dealing with the FBI agent?
Mr. SENATOR. Sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In this same, or rather in this interview with the FBI, the FBI reports you as telling them during that interview that you learned of Oswald's being shot just as you walked in the door of the Eatwell Restaurant.
Mr. SENATOR. Just as I walked in? No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall that?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I was sitting. I was sitting. I wasn't walking in the door. I was down on the seat and already had my first cup of coffee.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Also, one gets the impression from the FBI interview it was your recollection on November 24 that you called Jim Martin after you learned that Jack Ruby had shot Oswald.
Mr. SENATOR. No; before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It was before you learned that?
Mr. SENATOR. Right. I called him--wait, wait. No; that is right. I did. But I wasn't home. That was it. I called him and spoke to his daughter, one of his little girls.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And that was before you learned that Ruby----
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. When I heard that Oswald was shot, but nothing mentioned. There was no name or no club mentioned, Oswald was shot--that is when I called him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Directing your attention to the FBI's report on November 24, that you said you learned that Oswald was shot just as you walked in the door.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you now remember that you were seated and had a cup of coffee whereas apparently you didn't remember that on November 24?
Mr. SENATOR. Because the waitress who waited on me was the one who said it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she say it to you?
Mr. SENATOR. No. She was behind the counter. Not specifically to me. It was pretty loud.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they have a TV set on?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don't think so. I don't know. She got her information through either the phone, or they may have had a little radio. I don't remember just what it was, because I wasn't looking directly where she was walking around, or what she was doing, but she was behind the counter, and I was sitting.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. How much time elapsed between the time you learned that Oswald had been shot and the time you learned that Ruby had been the person who shot him?
Mr. SENATOR, I Would probably say within 5 to 10 minutes, something like that. It was a short while I know. It wasn't long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I'm going to mark a document which I have before me in the following manner: "Washington, D.C., April 23, 1964, George Senator, Deposition Exhibit 5401," and I am going to sign my name to it.
This document which I have marked as a copy of an interview report prepared by Special Agent Kenneth C. Howe of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, of an interview on November 24, 1963, with you, Mr. Senator. It consists of five pages, typewritten pages, and they are numbered 296 to 300. I have marked on page 296, and I have not marked the succeeding pages. I want to hand you this and ask you now to take the time to read it over, and then I want to know if that is an accurate report of what you told the FBI at that time.
I am not asking you whether, on further reflection, you would change what you said in there, but merely whether that accurately reflects what you told them at that time. If it doesn't, why, will you point out the parts that are not accurate, and we will see if we can't correct it.
Mr. SENATOR. Shall I make little notations here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there some places you want to change?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you mark on it--why don't you do this----
Mr. SENATOR. It will only be a dot.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you just take this paper and make some notes on it and then we can go back.
Mr. SENATOR. There is going to be some changes in here. I will point them out to you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you got some changes to make there?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I had better go over it with you though.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you read the sentence or sentences that you would make changes in, and then we will discuss them? What I suggest you do is read one sentence or a group of sentences that are wrong, and then we will discuss that sentence or group, and then we will move on to the next one. Go right ahead and read it.
Mr. SENATOR. It says here, "He had only casual association with him, mostly only as a patron to his club, from that time on until approximately 3 years ago."
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on page 296 of the FBI report?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Now it wasn't 3 years ago at the time. This was 2 years ago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, your association with Jack was casual up until 2 years ago?
Mr. SENATOR. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Mr. SENATOR. In other words, it was 1962, February, March, or April or somewheres in there of 1962.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you change with your pen, strike out the word "three."
Mr. SENATOR. On this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. On that. And write "two."
Mr. SENATOR. You mean cross the three off and put a two in there?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. And then initial it and date it.
Mr. SENATOR. It is going to be hard to squeeze it in between these lines. Shall I put my initial after it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. You won't be able to see it. These writings here don't coincide.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me talk a little bit more about this change in your relationship with Jack. up until approximately March or April of 1962 when your relationship became more than casual, were there other people in Dallas to whom you felt closer than Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I think. maybe we are both misinterpreting this. When you say closer, this is when I first started to--you know, when I was down and

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out and I first stated to work for him, and I was living with him. You see what I mean?
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is March or April of 1962?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say either February, March, or April, something like that. I don't remember that I was living with him, because previous to that I still didn't see him any more than I ever did in the past.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And up to this time were there other people in Dallas whom you saw more frequently than Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, the only time I saw Jack is when I ever met him anywheres, if I should run across him anywheres, or once in a while I would go up to his club, that was all, and it has never been anything but that up until that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you see more frequently or on a more social basis?
Mr. SENATOR. Actually I couldn't see him frequently. Before that I was traveling. See, I was traveling. I wasn't home every weekend. There were times when I was traveling, there were times I might miss a week from coming home. It all depends on the location you are if you are too far from home. Then other times I might be gone two or three. It all depends, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I want to get some idea of is up until this period that you moved in with Jack in 1962, who were the. people that you saw on a social basis?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I have seen Bill Downey. What I want to impress you, these people I don't see every day, or like, you know, say I see them today, tomorrow, the next day, and things like that. On rare occasions I saw Don Tuber. That time on rare occasions I saw Jim Martin. These were all rare, mind you, them see, I did more meeting. I met a lot of people at the Burgundy Room most of the time. In other words, somebody has a favorite hangout.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And that Burgundy Room was yours?
Mr. SENATOR. This is mine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. For how long has it been your favorite hangout?
Mr. SENATOR. Ever since I came to Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a place you would go almost every day?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say more so than any other place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you go there almost every day?
Mr. SENATOR. No, not every day, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Two or three times a week?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say yes, sure, and I always met some friends there after they all get out from work a lot of people always gathered, transient or local, from 5 on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The Burgundy Room to you is sort of what a private club would be to a wealthier man?
Mr. SENATOR. That is of that nature, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And there were certain other people who used to hang around there?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack Ruby one of the people?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I have only seen Jack go in there that I can remember twice, but he never sat down and had a drink. In and out. Walked in. Jack is not a drinking man.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So would it be fair to say that for recreation and pastime----
Mr. SENATOR. Just as one of my hangouts.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You would go to the Burgundy Room and have a few beers, a few drinks?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Whoever walked in. I had many friends who walked in. Whoever walked in, there is many girls that I knew, many fellows that I knew.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you are not a man who spends his spare time----
Mr. SENATOR. Not particularly, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Playing golf or tennis?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I'll tell you--the only habit I got is I like to cook, this is my golf or what somebody else would do, or whatever he may recreate in--I used to like to piddle around in the kitchen. That is why Jack Ruby didn't like me. You are not writing that?
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean that you like to experiment with food?

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Mr. SENATOR. Yes, I like to putter around. I enjoy puttering around in kitchens. I done this for a long time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you worked in a number of restaurants?
Mr. SENATOR. But not in that capacity. Of course, I was broken in, you know. When I say broken in, I worked for my brother you know, years ago, but I wasn't classified as any cook or any thing of that nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any sort of specialty foods you like to cook?
Mr. SENATOR. I like to mess around with different concoctions, I mean because anybody can throw a hamburger on, you know, in the home, or anybody can throw a steak on, whether it comes out good or bad, that is not a challenge. But to try to make some concoctions where you mix things----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Salads?
Mr. SENATOR. They can be salads or any hot dishes, something like that, or see how good you can make spareribs come out, which a lot of people can't make good, and then all the lawyers in Dallas think I am the greatest when it comes to making spareribs, because I have been invited many times, and I do put on a good rib plate.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you in the habit of inviting people to your place for dinner?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, I have many a time. Nobody particular, but I have. I mean this--I relished, I have been invited over to people's homes. Jim Martin has invited me to his place to cook. There is another lawyer invited me over to his home to cook. They thought I did a good job in the kitchen. While they sat down I was sweating in the kitchen, but it was fun.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But Jack didn't appreciate your cooking?
Mr. SENATOR. He liked my cooking, but he wouldn't eat it because he classified me as one making rich, fatty foods, that would put a pouch on him. This is the thing, because this is why I mentioned to you that I love to make this avocado dish, which I mentioned to you before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is when we were having lunch.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I didn't pull out an avocado salad today as I did yesterday.
Mr. SENATOR. I love avocadoes. I think they are great. I used to make a concoction and put on avocado and everybody used to love it. I must have put about nine different ingredients in it, but it tasted real good, real good. They used to clean the plate out. That was a good enough answer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now there are some other things in that statement or that interview report that I think you want to change.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know. These don't look like my words. I don't say that some of these aren't factors, you know, but I don't see, I don't think some of these are the direct words that come out of my mouth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that you understand, these are not supposed to be actually the direct words that come out of your mouth, but this is their report of what they recall your saying. Now if it changes the substance in some way, if they have used words that change the meaning in some way, or the approach that you had, I think it is important to bring that out.
Mr. SENATOR. Let me read this off to you. This is right after the next sentence. It says, "Thereafter he considers himself to be much closer to Ruby, but in this regard could not explain why he considered himself closer during the past 3 years." Now I don't even know what that means.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand it.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't understand it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand it to mean that you felt that you were closer to Ruby but you couldn't explain to them why you were closer to Ruby.
Mr. SENATOR. Let me read this to myself again? This don't make sense to me. Maybe I don't understand what I am reading, what I have read to you. Do you want to go over it with me?
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Mr. SENATOR. This part I read to you, start there, "Thereafter."
Mr. GRIFFIN. "Thereafter he considered himself to have been closer to Ruby, but in this regard could not explain why he considered himself closer during the past 3 years than the time before he knew Ruby."

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In other words, they are saying that you couldn't explain why you felt closer to Ruby in this recent period.
Mr. SENATOR. If I had just moved in, how could I really feel that closer, just moving in? It doesn't necessarily mean being close to him. I mean, this I don't understand. What do they mean when they say--how can you just move in with somebody and say, Say you are that close to him? You are there, that is true, but what do you mean by .being close to him? If you had just gone in and had always known him casually----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Isn't part of the reason that you felt closer to him in recent years than you had long before is that you began to live with him in recent years, and that automatically made you closer? You saw him more often.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but I mean the way this sort of states to me, unless I misinterpret it, like I just moved in and I am that close to him already, I am really like a buddy-buddy, you know.
.Mr. GRIFFIN. No; there is no mention in here at this point in the FBI interview report of your having moved in with Ruby.
Mr. SENATOR. In so many words, though, doesn't it sound the same to you? ". . .than in the past 3 years".
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but it doesn't mention that in the past 3 years you moved in and began living with him, whereas before then you hadn't lived with him. As I understand what you have been saying to us up to this point is that your closer relationship simply resulted from the fact that you began to see him every day, whereas before----
Mr. SENATOR. See the way I interpret this, the moment I moved in I was already close to him. Of course, I know that I am in the same place, but that is the way I am interpreting it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's let it stand for the record, then, that you did not automatically feel closer to Jack Ruby at the time you moved in with him.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Your moving in with him was not the result of having established a close relationship, but was a result of Jack's taking you in when you didn't have a place to live and didn't have any money. Is that it?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I mean the appreciation was there, I want you to know, of these things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how did Jack happen to learn that you needed a place to live and so he invited you in with him?
Mr. SENATOR. I identified myself that way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, you approached him and asked him if you could move in?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don't remember just how it was, but I was not in good condition, I was hurting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And had there been something about Jack before that that had indicated to you that Jack would be the kind of a guy who would respond like this?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; because he has responded to other people like this, and after that, and I have seen it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you heard before you moved in with Jack that Jack had taken in other people or done things for other people?
Mr. SENATOR. The example number one is the chap that I told you is deceased--I don't say this man was hurting, but he was still living in Jack's apartment for free.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Martin Gimpel?
Mr. SENATOR. Martin Gimpel. He was still living in Jack's apartment for free. I don't say he was hurting for money, which I don't know because I didn't know his business.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You knew that at the time you approached Jack? You knew Gimpel had been living with him?
Mr. SENATOR. I didn't know Gimpel that way, just from running across him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But had anybody else suggested to you that Jack might be willing to take you in?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no; it was just one of those things that happened by chance. That is all. Of course, within me I didn't know what was going to happen, but

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he took me in. I have seen other instances like this chap Larry. Now he ran across him out at the fairgrounds.
I don't know what it was, but this kid here didn't have the right time. He was doing something out there. His apparel was nothing, and Jack bought him a suit. Of course, mind you, he put him in the club, let him sleep there, but he made him work, but he gave him a few bucks. He gave him a place to sleep. He put some clothes on his back.
And one time before he disappeared I even heard him mention once Larry didn't have any front teeth, and I heard Jack mention once, "Larry, we'll have to do something about your teeth, to get you some front teeth." This is a true fact. As tough as this guy was at times, he was soft too. He had a heart. Many a buck he shelled out to somebody to grab a bite.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You suggested you found this Ewing Street apartment.
Mr. SENATOR. The new place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You made the decision----
Mr. SENATOR. Somebody told me to take a look at this new place going up. At the time I looked at it, this place wasn't even ready.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you suggest to Jack that he might also want to move in there?
Mr. SENATOR. I mentioned to Jack to take a look at it, see. This is before either one of us were living there. The thing was still in the working stages. It was coming round to completion, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As we had discussed before, you moved in with Jack in the early part of 1962 and lived with him for about 5 months?
Mr. SENATOR. But not at this place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; at another place.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And, of course, during that 5 months you began to know the man better.
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You came closer to him, but you decided when you got a job you wanted to move out from him?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I am curious as to why you decided that you wanted to move out rather than decide that you would stay there and pay part of the rent.
Mr. SENATOR. Particularly one. I told you he didn't keep a very clean place, but should I classify myself to say a man who is unemployed, a beggar--beggars can't be choosers, that is an old saying, right?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR That is part of it. All right, I know the overall picture that Jack would rather live alone, see. I mean if somebody is out, something like me, if I needed a place, all right, he would keep me. But in the overall picture he would rather live alone.
And many a guy has slept at his place whether the Carousel or one of the apartments he may live in, and I don't know how many he has lived in previous to when I knew him where he may put up a guy for a night, 2, 3, 4, or 5, whatever it might be, and fed him, because he was tapped or something of that nature. He has done this many a time, and I would probably say even before I knew him, and I feel this probably could go back to the hardships of his youth, because he, as I understand it, he had a rough bringing up and growing up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk about that to you?
Mr. SENATOR. He talked about some of it, but I never heard all of it come out in the courtroom. Of course, I never knew up until, you know, the recent times that his mother was in an institution or a crazy house, which I never knew. And, of course, I didn't know how drunk his father used to be, but I understand he was a habitual----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk about his father when you lived with him?
Mr. SENATOR. I think he had mentioned his father, but he had never mentioned his mother, never, which I never knew. Of course, this all come out after the shooting, you know, everything come out, was brought out either by the sisters or somebody. And I never knew about how the kids were all separated,

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things of that nature, when they were young. One was placed here, one was placed there, wherever they were placed. A lot of these things I never even knew.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So this conclusion that you are now drawing----
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say this might be why he has done some of the things he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are drawing this conclusion on the basis of what you have learned since he shot Oswald, and not on the basis of anything that you knew beforehand? In other words, these things you have been talking about, his father and his mother and the separation of the children, this you first learned after he shot Oswald? You didn't know about that when you were living with him?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn't know about it. I heard him mention that he had tough days as a kid, but he never talked about them too' much, very, very little. All these things, the majority of the things that come out, come out after the trial, I mean after the shooting. There, of course, I think his sisters come out with the majority of it and probably his brothers, when things had to be related and had to go back all these years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead through there as you have, through that Exhibit 5401, and if there is anything else in there that you think should be changed or clarified--keep in mind what I am primarily concerned with is whether this report you are looking at is an accurate report of what was told to the FBI at that time.
Mr. SENATOR. Let me run through this one: "He added he occasionally when low on funds would be asked by Ruby to come and stay a day or two with him until he got back on his feet".
Of course, this is a comma, and then it continues, but I want .to stop right there. Let me run through the whole thing. "He added he occasionally when low on funds would be asked by Ruby to come and stay a day or two with him until he got back on his feet, but he claims he actually never lived with him until about November 1, 1963, when he moved into the apartment of Ruby's, apartment 207, 223 South Ewing, Dallas, Tex."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; well,. that is inaccurate?
Mr. SENATOR. You know that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, my only question to you is when the FBI interviewed you, and this is on November 24, did you omit to tell them that you had lived with Ruby on an earlier occasion?
Mr. SENATOR. To the best of my knowledge. I don't think I did omit that. I don't think I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think the record is sufficiently clear.
Mr. SENATOR. Now, there are a lot of things I must tell you which I have told you before, I am not always sure of everything, you know. In other words, I have to use these words to let you know that I ain't lying.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think the record will be clear from this deposition that you didn't live with him before November 1st of 1963.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, unless that you are certain that you did tell the FBI about living with Ruby before November 1st, I would rather not change it on there, write it in there, but I would rather simply let the record show that we are making here, simply let it reflect that that is inaccurate.
Mr. SENATOR. Let me run back on this one again, part of this again:
"He added he occasionally when low on funds would be asked by Ruby to come and stay a day or two with him until he got back on his feet,".
This was never, because the first time I stayed with him was when I stayed at the club, and then moved with him, because I stayed with him 5 to 6 months, something like that. Of course, I don't know how you classify this, how important it is to you or not, because I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there occasions other than the time that you lived with him for 5 or 6 months that you did come and stay with him for a day or two?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It never happened?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I was with him. I mean I wasn't in and out.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Now is it possible that you could have told them this in the anxiety and turmoil that you were under at the time this interview took Place?
Mr. SENATOR. I could probably say that anything at that time, that day, could be possible. Maybe I feel it isn't, but let me say that I wasn't in the best of condition that day. I would say anybody that was in the nature that I was in, as I.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think again here now the record will reflect, and I want to go through and point these out as you are doing, but I think the record again here will reflect what is accurate as to what has actually happened.
Let's let this thing stand, unless you are 100 percent sure that you didn't say that, let's let it stand on there as written. By "on there" I am referring to the Exhibit 5401.
Mr. SENATOR. Now here is a point: "Shortly after Senator first met him, Ruby opened the Sovereign Club on the second floor of the building on the southeast corer of Field and Commerce in downtown Dallas."
Now this was before I got to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He was running the Sovereign Club before you met him?
Mr. SENATOR. He was in the Sovereign Club; yes. I don't know how long he was in there, but he was in there before I came that close to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you. had known Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I have known him; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Even when he ran the Silver Spur, didn't you?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I wasn't living in Dallas then. That is way before my time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You knew him before he opened the Sovereign Club when he only had the Vegas?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure. This is the Sovereign Club. Wait a minute. It says shortly after I first met him. My God this don't go that far back, and I have known Ruby, unless he could have meant the Vegas Club, I don't know. Of course, I don't know how important this is to you either.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Again here I am glad you pointed this out. Here I think that this deposition will clear this up.
Mr. SENATOR. Now here is one that says I wasn't able to furnish the individual's name, but I how it now.
"Ruby had a partner in the operation of the Sovereign Club, but Senator was unable to furnish this individual's name."
But we have talked about that name today.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Joe Slayton.
Mr. SENATOR. Joe Slayton; yes, sir. Now I don't think I knew who it was then, who his partner was. "Senator can state only that he believes Ruby to be the sole owner and operator of the present Carousel Club."
Now there was a backer and I knew him well, but I didn't know the conditions.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you reluctant at the time you talked to the FBI to disclose this?
Mr. SENATOR. No. You mean to hold back on them?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. That is the way it sounds when you say that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No, no; I wasn't. As well as I knew him I didn't know the formality of what he had to the Carousel as many times as he came there. I didn't know what his status was in it. I knew there was a close--I mean he had a close relationship with Jack. He knew him well.
"Ruby actively managed the Carousel Club although he still as far as Senator knows owns the Vegas Club," which we know different now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to go on to the next page?
Mr. SENATOR. I am through with that page.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Look at page 297 of this same report and tell us if there are any changes or modifications or corrections you want to make there.
Mr. SENATOR. What is I.E., the initials?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That means in explanation. The sentence you are referring to is:
"Senator was of the opinion Ruby, since he is Jewish, feels somewhat the same

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on things of this type as he (Senator) does, i.e., a Jew has no right to express opinions of any sort, especially when he is in business, since he has enough strikes against him just being a Jew."
In other words, this statement about a Jew having no right to express opinions of any sort is a belief that you have, and the FBI is saying you believe that, and you think Ruby believes the same thing.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't believe I said that. I don't believe I ever said that. know that Ruby is a sensitive man as far as when the word "Jew" comes up, you know, in something he don't like. He takes tremendous offense. No; I am not of the nature of Jack Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then do you feel that a Jewish person has no business expressing political opinions, and so forth?
Mr. SENATOR Oh, they certainly have a perfect right to express opinions as anybody else. I would probably say--let me say I think they are more careful. I can't speak for every individual, mind you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think that Jack felt that a Jewish person has no business expressing
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Opinions of any sort, especially when he is in business?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know what he felt. All I know is that he gets pretty sensitive when somebody is knocking it, or jokes and things, things of that nature, he don't go for it nohow.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This language which we have been quoting arises in a paragraph that starts out:
"Ruby never expressed any special political preferences and never even discussed political matters."
Then it goes on to state this view, that "A Jew has no right to express opinions of any sort," the suggestion being that Ruby never discussed politics because he didn't think a Jew should discuss politics.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know about that. Of course, I can't quote Ruby's words. I can't think for Ruby like I can't think for anybody else.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you would say that now your present opinion is that you have no information about Ruby which would make you believe that he declined to be interested in political matters because of his Jewish background, that is, his Jewish background discouraged him or made him feel that he shouldn't have this kind of----
Mr. SENATOR. I couldn't even answer that because I don't even know. I don't even know. All I do know is I know that anybody comes out and calls him a God-damned Jew or something to that effect, he don't go for this nohow, he just don't go for it. He is sensitive that way.
Now somebody could say it to me and I would probably be able to laugh it off, whether I did or didn't like it, but I tell you Jack Ruby don't laugh these things off.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He is sensitive about being criticized because he is a Jew?
Mr. SENATOR. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don't feel, I take it, that there is necessarily any connection between his sensitivity to being a Jew and his apparent lack of interest in politics?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If now in discussing this situation in an atmosphere which I take it is a little bit more relaxed than it was on November 24th, if you were to offer a judgment as to why Jack Ruby didn't appear to be interested in politics, what would you suggest for the reason?
Mr. SENATOR. I have no answer for it, but all I can say is these things don't interest him. He was not interested in these things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is his primary interest?
Mr. SENATOR. Show business.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about girls? How about sex? Is that an important interest to him?
Mr. SENATOR. It is as natural for him as it is for any other male human being.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a matter, though---was sex something that he discussed as he discussed his business, for example?

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Mr. SENATOR. No, no. I don't say--I don't say that he hasn't discussed it, but I will say that there isn't any male that hasn't discussed it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead with that page 297 and point out any other paragraphs that you would change or correct.
Mr. SENATOR. In this next column here, the only thing is, "Ruby owned a revolver which Senator could describe only by saying it was black. This was kept at the Carousel Club, although occasionally Ruby would carry it back and forth between the club and his home because he usually carried a fairly large sum of money."
Now there is only one little point there I want to bring out, and this is the point I want to bring out:
"This was kept at the Carousel Club, although occasionally Ruby would carry it back and forth between the club and his home,".
This was an everyday occurrence.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He carried it back and forth every day?
Mr. SENATOR. When he left the house to go to the club, bingo, that went with him. When he left the club to go home, that went with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. Did he keep the gun in the apartment or did he keep it in his car?
Mr. SENATOR. He kept it in his apartment.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He kept it in the apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now would he keep it on his person or would he keep it in a moneybag?
Mr. SENATOR. It has been both ways. It all depends on how he is going home. I mean, no particular reason. He has kept it both ways.
Now, I can't quote how many times he has it in his pocket or in his moneybag, something like that, and I can't even quote, maybe occasionally he may have forgotten it and left it in the car. If he did leave it in the car it would be locked in the trunk.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have the habit of taking the revolver out of the automobile when he got to the Carousel Club and carrying it up into the Carousel Club, or don't you remember?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, he takes it up there, sure. He takes it upstairs. Now if he does it every day, you must understand that I am not watching every move Jack Ruby made.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did you see it?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't even know. I can't quote the times, but I would probably say the majority of times it probably went up, and then again it may have went up all the time. As I say, I am not watching, looking for a bag all the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it also possible he may have only taken it up occasionally to the club?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say the majority of the times it went up. If you are asking me to break it down, I can't break it down. First of all, I am not always with him when he is going to the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right. On the occasions that you saw him carry it up into the club did he carry it up in his pocket or did he carry it in a bag?
Mr. SENATOR. The times that I have seen him, I have seen him have it in the bag.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I would think that if he didn't have a holster it would be pretty cumbersome to carry that revolver around the club in his pocket.
Mr. SENATOR. I have never known him to have a holster. I have never seen one, never seen a holster on him, or what do you call these things, shoulder? I have never seen one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see a holster in his automobile?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I don't even know if he even had one. This is a part that I have had a lot of trouble with, with a lot of people.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What part is that?
Mr. SENATOR. This is the part--this is why I think they were probably looking at me as a fag or a queer: "Senator on some occasions would refer to Ruby as a boyfriend." And I have said that to many people.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you happen to use that term?

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Mr. SENATOR. It is a word I have used all my life, when I was even a kid. There was no particular reason. My boyfriends, some people may say "This is my acquaintance." It happens to be I have always used this word, no particular reason. Maybe I would probably say it was a habit more than anything else.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now let me ask you this: You stated to us unequivocally you are not a homosexual.
Mr. SENATOR. You can be assured, you can be assured. I will say that Georgie still loves women yet.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is not necessarily inconsistent with being a homosexual, but I am not suggesting----
Mr. SENATOR. But you heard my words, though, my words they are direct believe me. And I don't intend changing it. I may not be that strong, but I don't intend changing them. Of course, age is a benefactor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are talking about your affection for women?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; certainly. I still like the beauty of the female sex. Let me read the rest of this. Let me quote you something that Mr. Alexander had me at the first bond hearing--I can't help but think of it when I read this "boyfriend" and how many times that has been quoted. It has never been quoted me direct, but I have heard it hearsay, you know, things like that. At the bond hearing, the first bond hearing, Mr. Alexander said to me:
"You and Jack Ruby lived together?" And I said, "Yes."
He says, "How many bedrooms in the apartment you live in?"
I said, "Two."
He says, "What are the other rooms?"
I says, "There is a bathroom, kitchen, and a living room."
Then he come Out with this live one, which I .grasped right away. This is what I call it.
"Where do you keep the TV?"
I didn't particularly like it, but I was on the witness stand.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you say?
Mr. SENATOR. I said, "In the living room," where it is. But I caught the drift right away. And I wasn't happy about that because I couldn't open my mouth because I was on the witness stand.
Page 298. You got the drift of that, didn't you?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes;very clear.
Mr. SENATOR. I can't quote the rest of it because he put it down there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead, I am interested.
Mr. SENATOR. In other words, what this means is Jack Ruby and I are in bed together, probably holding hands, or whatever it might be, watching TV. Is that easy?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Isn't that logical?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. And I was pretty disturbed over this. How does he base something like this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it he didn't follow it up in any way?
Mr. SENATOR. Not the second time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He didn't attempt to discredit your statement that it was kept in the living room?
Mr. SENATOR. No. And when he didn't bring that up at all on the witness stand----
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the trial?
Mr. SENATOR. At the trial. There is something here; I don't know what it means; the difference may be an hour or two, according to what time I came home that Friday night--he said between 9 and 10.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When do you think it was?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say between 10 and 11.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you here: What did you do from the time you heard that the President had been shot on Friday until you came home at, say 10 o'clock? Did you work the rest of that day?
Mr. SENATOR. That was a black day; man, that was a sad day.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. You were at Jack's?
Mr. SENATOR. That was a day I will tell you I don't think a living soul in Dallas had any ambition to work. You would have to see that town that day and the feeling of all the individuals in that town. It was really a sad, sad day. It was a weeping day. I'll tell you that is what it was; it was a weeping day for the city.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go to the Burgundy Room? Where did you go from Jack's when you first heard this news?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I went downtown; did a little desk work again. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Talk out loud and then we can correct it.
Mr. SENATOR. I am not sure what it was. I don't remember anymore. I think I went to the Burgundy Room. I think I just messed around downtown in the area. No particular place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be a place like the Burgundy Room, a tavern?
Mr. SENATOR. Probably so; probably so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any people you saw on Friday?
Mr. SENATOR. I can't recollect. It was a very sad day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think that is a day that is rather vivid to most of us. I know it is with me. I am just wondering if you can't think where you were that day, and who you talked to.
Mr. SENATOR. In all probability I probably spoke to many people downtown that day, or various places, wherever I may have been.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What other places are you accustomed to go to besides the Burgundy Room?
Mr. SENATOR. The Burgundy Room; there is another place I used to drop in, which is called the Smuggler, which is uptown. These are both places that I went to. Of course, the Burgundy Room is No. 1. The other place I do go just occasionally, I do go to the place occasionally.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you say you were hanging around downtown, you were hanging around someplace where you could have a drink, a bite to eat, or something of that sort?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you wouldn't have been in a department store or a drug-store, someplace like that?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don't think so. I mean I don't know. A department store; definitely I haven't been in there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We are talking about someplace where you could get a drink, watch television, and watch the events on television. Did you spend all day watching the events on television?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn't. I think I was in the downtown area. I think I was in the downtown area most of that day, if I am not mistaken. I don't remember just where I was. I may have floated from downtown uptown. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think you had quite a bit to drink that day?
Mr. SENATOR. I will probably say I had maybe a fair amount. I mean, to be drunk or anything of that nature, I don't think I Was drunk that day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you are pretty well able to hold your liquor, from what you said before. You feel that you are?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that I wonder if----
Mr. SENATOR. In other words, I got to be careful when I'm driving because if you get nabbed by the Dallas cops, you are in trouble, but good trouble, and I don't want to get in that condition.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am wondering, from what you are saying here, if it isn't a fair impression to draw----
Mr. SENATOR. If it isn't what?
Mr. GRIFFIN. If I couldn't fairly infer that you had been drinking most of the time after you heard that the President was shot, although you don't feel that you had been drinking so much that you weren't in control of yourself.
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I was in control of myself.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. But you had been drinking fairly steadily from the time you heard the President was shot until you went home that night?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would this have anything to do with your failure to recollect what you had done that day?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't think I was that tight; no. I just don't remember where I navigated that day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you suggest again--and I keep throwing the same question back to you---can you think or suggest someone that you saw that day?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know if I saw--I keep on bringing up this attorney all the while, Jim Martin. I don't know if I saw him, called him, or went to his office that day or not. I used to meet him before all this here was going on, you know, for cocktail hour before I went home, between 5 to 6, and went home, but I don't know if I met him that day or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you have dinner that night?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't even think I had dinner that night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you attempt to get in touch with Jack Ruby that night?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that?
Mr. SENATOR. No particular reason why. I just didn't; that is all. I didn't even look for him. There was no special reason. You see, I have never, if I am out, gotten on the telephone to see if he was home or what he was going to do or things of that nature. In other words, when I am out I am free.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack wasn't somebody that you did things with; is that fair to say?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn't do much with him; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And part of the reason was Jack didn't drink? Wasn't that probably part of it?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack don't like me drinking and Jack don't like to see me go into joints. All right. Now the Burgundy Room; I don't know if you have ever been there while you were down there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I haven't.
Mr. SENATOR. It is a nice place. It gets fine transient trade and local people, and it is one of the nicest places, I feel as an open bar that you can go to.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does Jack somehow have the idea that you drink too much?
Mr. SENATOR. Not exactly drink too much. You know I can drink one beer and he will say, "You are drunk, aren't you?" He will pull this on me. He has pulled it many a time on me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he feel that way about other people?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know. I don't know about other people. But he didn't like me drinking. He said it to me many a time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you put up with a guy who criticized your personal habits as much as Jack appears to have done?
Mr. SENATOR. In all reality, it didn't bother me. I didn't care what he said.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He sort of treated you like you were his son?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; no. He just didn't like to have me drink; that is all. He felt I was wasting--believe it or not, here is a man with a club who felt I was throwing my money away, and he felt that I couldn't afford to be throwing my money away.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He took some sort of a brotherly or fatherly interest in you, or was this just Jack's desire to dominate people?
Mr. SENATOR. Dominate? I don't know if "dominate" would be the word. But as a friend he liked me; I will put it that way. He liked me as a friend.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that because of anything you had done for him?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, you know, I did a lot of things for him, and, of course, he has done things for me, you know. When I was down and out he helped me out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You showed him a certain amount of loyalty and confidence.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; you see, I don't argue back with him. I don't know if he likes this or not, you know. I don't want to argue with him. So I "Yes" him to get the argument over with, because when he hollers at me he hollers from the rooftops. But when you hear enough of it, it didn't bother me. It may have bothered a lot of people, but it didn't bother me because with me I knew there

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was no harm that would be done. But the shrill of his voice, you know he was around. You could hear it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. OK; let's go on there on page 298 from where we were.
Mr. SENATOR. It says, "Ruby and Senator arose on November 24, and Senator noticed Ruby had brought one of four dogs which he ordinarily keeps at the Carousel home with him." He brings this same dog home every night. And when it says, "Ruby and Senator arose," it is like we woke up at the same time. That is not so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This refers to Sunday morning, November 24; is that right?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the correct statement of this would be that----
Mr. SENATOR. I woke up before he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You woke up before he did, and that Jack always keeps Sheba----
Mr. SENATOR. Always brings Sheba home every night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it customary also for him to take Sheba down to the club every day?
Mr. SENATOR. Both forth and back, forth and back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Sheba with him wherever he goes?
Mr. SENATOR Yes; the dog is always with him. This was his pet. This was his favorite of a few dogs that he had.
Mr. GRIFFIN. OK; I think the record is clear enough on that; that we don't have to make any entry on the page.
Mr. SENATOR. Of course, the-other is what we discussed before about the signs that you have on this page.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is nothing in there about the signs, is there?
Mr. SENATOR. None. Elmer Moore has the one about the signs. This is page 299. I forgot to tell you. I went to this restaurant, it says, to eat. I just had that coffee. The morning when I went down to eat on Main Street, it says I went down to eat. I only had coffee. "He estimated as he arrived there at approximately 11:30 and as he walked in the door he overheard one of the waitresses saying Oswald has been shot." This is not so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was after you sat down?
Mr. SENATOR. I had been sitting already.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that on page 300 or page 299?
Mr. SENATOR. 299. Now he got this twisted.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you read the part that is twisted.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. "Shortly thereafter the waitress told Senator that Oswald had been shot by a local tavern operator, and a short while after that he learned the name of this individual to be Jack Ruby. He said he was dumfounded, and did not know what to do, but after a short while he went to the telephone and called Jim Martin on Gladiola Street, Dallas, as an attorney whom he knew." We went through that. Do you want to go through that again?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I want to know if you say now, of course, that that is not what happened. Now, what did you tell the agent? Could you have told the agent that?
Mr. SENATOR. No; when the waitress said that she heard .Oswald had been shot, I called Jim Martin, but nobody knew who. The daughter answered the phone and said her daddy was in church, and that he would be home in a short while.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It is your recollection that when you called Jim Martin, you couldn't get ahold of him, but you. talked to his daughter.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How old is his daughter?
Mr. SENATOR. He had three of them, and I don't remember which one answered. Of course, one is too young. I don't know which one he went to church with. One is 15 or 16 and the other is, I think, 10 or 11.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And is there one even younger than 10 or 11?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, an infant. Maybe she is 2 or 3 years old; something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell the daughter who you were; who was calling? Did you leave word?
Mr. SENATOR. I am not sure if I told her to tell her daddy that George called.

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I am not sure if I did or not. I don't want to say I did and I don't want to say I didn't, because I don't remember. No; I didn't leave right after that. I still had a cup of coffee yet. It says I left right after this call.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is incorrect; is that what you are saying?
Mr. SENATOR. "He said this attorney was not at home, so he got into his car and drove to the attorney's house to wait for his return." This I did not do. What I did was I still sat there and I had two cups of coffee, when this gift hollered out again, "the Carousel, Jack Ruby," which words were sort of mispronounced the way she said it; this is when I went. Of course, I sat there for a little bit, not knowing what the hell to do. This was stunning. I sort of froze right to the seat when I heard that. Page 300. I read too slow, don't I?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all right. Go ahead.
Mr. SENATOR. Let me run this through. I don't catch the last part of this: "He never heard Ruby say Oswald had ever visited either one of the clubs in which Ruby was interested." Does that mean, in other words, the clubs that Jack owned?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.
Mr. SENATOR. All right; OK.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you a few questions. You have had a chance to read that all over. Now on page 298 the FBI reports you in this fashion:
"Senator has no accurate idea as to where Ruby had been all day." That refers to Friday.
Mr. SENATOR. November 24.
Mr. GRIFFIN. November 22.
Mr. SENATOR. Twenty-second; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. "But does know that, because of the shooting of the President, Ruby has had many businessmen in Dallas close his business. Senator has some recollection Ruby said he had been at his sister's home for awhile." Is it fair then to draw the conclusion from that statement that, when you talked with the FBI on November 24, you did know what Ruby had done on Friday night, on Friday other than that he had closed his business, and that he had been at his sister's?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He went to the police station with sandwiches, I heard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But, you see, you told the FBI on November 24, when this presumably was as fresh in your mind as it is ever going to be, that you had no accurate idea where Ruby had been all day, and the only things that you could remember were that he closed his business and he had some recollection that he had been at his sister's home for awhile. You didn't mention, I take it, to the FBI on the 24th----
Mr. SENATOR. As a matter of fact, I probably forgot to mention it now, come to think of it, the synagogue and things like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't mention the synagogue. You didn't mention that he had been to the police station. You didn't mention----
Mr. SENATOR. You must understand, like I told you before, you know, when a man is in a shaken-up condition, it is true that you might say that this should be fresh in my mind, but when a man is in a shaken condition and nervous--and you can't help but be nervous--so I may have slipped up on some of the things that I probably couldn't think of momentarily when he was questioning me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible that the fact is that on the 24th you really didn't know, that it was sometime after the 24th that you learned that Jack had been to the police station with sandwiches, and that he had been to the synagogue, that Jack didn't even tell you this on Friday or Saturday?
Mr. SENATOR I didn't see him Friday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Saturday morning, that he didn't tell you Saturday morning that he had been to those places? Is it possible that Jack never told you that?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no; he did tell me that. How else would I know? How else-would I have known that?
Mr. GRIFFIN. You might have learned it since November 24, by talking with somebody or reading something.
Mr. SENATOR. Why would I want--let me ask you this--why would I want

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to leave out that he went to the police station--if I were able to think of it--or bringing sandwiches? Why would I want to leave out that he went to the synagogue?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is why I am suggesting that you didn't know that on the 24th, that it wasn't until later.
Mr. SENATOR. I didn't know it on the 24th. I didn't know it. I didn't see him. I didn't know it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, on November 24, up until the time you were interviewed by the FBI on November 24, you did not know that Jack had been to the police station, and you did not know that he had been to the synagogue.
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You learned about that sometime after the 24th.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I think I learned it before that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. See; what I am suggesting is that if you did learn it before the 24th, this would have been something you would have remembered.
Mr. SENATOR. You asked what makes something slip a man's mind.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Wouldn't you be more likely to remember he had been to the police station ,than he had been to visit his sister? If a man had told you on Saturday morning right after the President had been shot that he had been to the police station, and had said anything about what he had done there, wouldn't that have been something that you would have remembered as being important? You would have been curious, wouldn't you? You would have asked the man "What did you see down at the police station? Who did you talk to down there? After all, that was right down there where Oswald was, and where the investigation was going
Mr. SENATOR. It is befuddling. I still think it was Saturday. There is an incident I just happened to think of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Mr. SENATOR. After he had woken me up on Saturday morning, there was a bunch of sandwiches still wrapped that hadn't been distributed, and--I don't know--I had no idea how many he bought or how many he had made, but he still come home with maybe 6, 8, 10, or 12 of those sandwiches.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of sandwiches were they?
Mr. SENATOR. I think they were corn beef and pastrami on rye, if I remember right, on rye bread. This I do remember, and they were still on the kitchen table, and as a matter of fact they were in two bags, if I remember right. They were in two bags. I think he had some cake too, that he bought in the delicatessen.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw that Saturday morning when you got up?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that recall anything further to your mind?
Mr. SENATOR. No; now this here I never even told anybody. I never even told this to anybody. This is the first time that I have ever exposed this. It don't matter who is questioning me, this is the first time. Now why didn't I think of this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is not so extraordinary.
Mr. SENATOR. No; you may say it is trivial or it may be trivial to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the kind of a thing that you might forget and that is also the kind of thing that as you look back from this period of time----
Mr. SENATOR. I have been trying to think as much as I could. Now I gather I can remember this part, this one here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any discussion with Jack about those sandwiches?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he had been to the police station and .he had passed out a lot to various policemen or plainclothesmen. I don't know who. I don't know who he passed them out to. But it seems like I gather that he must have had an awful lot of these made, or whatever it might have been. He must have had a slew of them made. Now why I did it I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this possible, that all you would have learned from him, you asked him "Where did you get these sandwiches" and he said "I got them for

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the men at the police station but they didn't eat them"? Could that have been the conversation?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he passed out some; I know. He said he had passed out some sandwiches. As a matter of fact he even took some to his sister.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He took some sandwiches to his sister? When did he take the sandwiches to his sister?
Mr. SENATOR. That was sometime Friday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you learn that?
Mr. SENATOR. From Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I suggest again----
Mr. SENATOR. I didn't see his sister.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I suggest again that if Jack had told you that he actually got into the police station and distributed those sandwiches to policemen in the police station, it would have occurred to you to ask, well, you know, what was going on in the investigation.
Mr. SENATOR. I didn't ask him what was going on. As a matter of fact, I don't even know what part of the police station he was in, or any locale of the police station he was in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you anything about seeing anybody?
Mr. SENATOR. He mentioned that he had gone to the police station and gave out sandwiches. That is all I knew about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN Did he mention seeing anybody else except policemen at the police station?
Mr. SENATOR. I think he had a glance at Oswald in one of the rooms, or something like that, as he was going by or something of that nature. I am not sure of this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don't know whether you knew that on the 24th or not, do you, or whether this is something you read later on?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't remember. I just don't remember. I can't say "Yes" or say "No," or what rooms he was in. I don't know just where he went at the police station.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Whatever happened to all those sandwiches? Did you eat them up?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, if I didn't eat but one or two I would be a fool, wouldn't I? I mean look, I like corn beef and pastrami. I mean the windup was when he got around to home, he didn't have that many left already.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many did you see in those paper bags? You said you saw 8 or 10 in the paper bags.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but I can't eat 8 or 10 sandwiches.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's take a break.
(Short recess taken.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me now state for the record that we had a short break here for refreshments, and Mr. Senator has had an opportunity to read a document which is known as Exhibit 5402, which I had previously marked, and in reviewing the documents which I have marked today, I find that I have dated them April 23, 1964, when a look at the calendar tells me that the correct date is April 22, 1964, and I have inked over the date so that it now reads April 22, 1964, on Exhibits 5400, 5401, 5402, and I have marked a further "Exhibit 5403," which exhibit is a copy of an FBI report prepared by Mr. Rawlings and Mr. Glonek, of an interview that they had with Mr. Senator on December 19, 1963,
Now Mr. Senator, you have had an opportunity in this break period to read over Exhibit 5402, which is a copy of a report prepared by Secret Service Agent Elmer W. Moore which he had with you on December 3, 1963. Have you had an opportunity to read that exhibit through?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I ask you as we did with the previous exhibit to indicate if there are any changes or corrections or clarifications that you would want to make in Mr. Moore's report, and I specifically point out again that what I am directing my attention to here is whether Mr. Moore's report is an accurate report of what you told him on that day. I might also reiterate as we have at the beginning of every session which has been resumed here that, of course, we are taking this under the same procedures and formalities that we have

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had since the beginning here, and that the oath which you took on Tuesday morning is still in effect.
Mr. SENATOR. Now on this here, of course, this goes hack many, many years. This is just the location that is a location and not a name of a person.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Point out what it is.
Mr. SENATOR. "About 1934 he returned to Gloversville and left there with neighbors, the Sebring family to go to Florida." Now, Sebring, it is a city, not people.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn't leave with the Sebring family?
Mr. SENATOR No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You left to go to Sebring, Fla.?
Mr. SENATOR. Went to Sebring, Fla.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you go to Sebring, Fla. with?
Mr. SENATOR. The name was Eggens.
Mr. GRIFFIN. They were neighbors from Gloversville?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they were neighbors from Gloversville. They lived for many, many years in Lake Placid, N.Y., and I went with them and, of course, today their whereabouts--I know the mother is deceased--and where they are I don't know. I haven't seen them in a zillion years.
"On August 21, 1941, he entered the Army Air Force and was assigned serial number 12006042." I probably should comment is off there. It doesn't really make any difference. "He served mainly as an aerial armorer with the Fifth Bomber Command 33d Group in Australia and Pacific Theater during World War Second."
There is a correction on that. I was with the 22d Bomber Group 33d Bomb Squadron. That is the only correction on that, if you want that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; that is fine because we are happy to have that. In fact why don't you take your pen and make that correction right on the piece of paper?
Mr. SENATOR. How can I get it on there, they are so close together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Cross out something and write it in
Mr. SENATOR. To go through this whole thing I would have to say I was with the Fifth Air Force, Fifth Bomber Command. Well, the Fifth Bomber Command is there. Do you want Fifth Air Force?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there something that is inaccurate in there?
Mr. SENATOR. The only thing is I was with the 22d Bomb Group, 33d Bomb Squadron.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So what you want to do is write out in the margin.
Mr. SENATOR. Do you want me to cross this out?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you just change the 33d Group to 33d Squadron. Change group to squadron, and then add what the bomber group was.
Mr. SENATOR. 22d Bomber Group.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; with a little caret or asterisk being there to indicate where you want it to go.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know how important it is, if you want the Fifth Air Force before or we can eliminate it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In order to identify that group that you were in----
Mr. SENATOR. In other words, it relates this way. You start off Fifth Air Force, Fifth Bomber Command, if you want this whole thing, 22d Bomb Group when I was with the 33d Bomb Squadron if you want that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Write Fifth Air Force in.
Mr. SENATOR. Do you want that?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know where to put it. Do you want me to put it on top here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.
Mr. SENATOR. Fifth Air Force comes first.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So we have edited this to read "He served mainly as an aerial armorer with the Fifth Air Force, Fifth Bomber Command, 22d Bomb Group, 33d Squadron in Australia and Pacific Theater during World War II." Why don't you initial and date the changes?
Mr. SENATOR. Is one sufficient for the whole?

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Put a set of initials and date by each one and remember it is April 22.
Mr. SENATOR. I think there is one I put on the 23d come to think of it somewheres on something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We will try to find that. I think you did make that change. You didn't date the previous change made on Exhibit 5401.
Mr. SENATOR. I am writing 4-23 here. It is 4-22. Can I put in here and say "He was honorably discharged" or just "discharged satisfactory."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead, if you want to clarify it to say honorably discharged.
Mr. SENATOR. There is a difference.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; there is and I can understand why you would want that in there. Now you have made some other changes on here I notice. You have added on page 2 of Agent Moore's report in the first sentence the word "Honorably" so that that sentence reads "He was honorably."
Mr. SENATOR. I should say honorably discharged.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Honorably discharged as a staff sergeant on September 9, 1945. In the first full paragraph on this page, the last sentence you have changed the spelling of the name Wexler from W-e-x-l-e-r to W-e-c-h-s-l-e-r, and that is the name of the man to whom your former wife is now married.
Mr. SENATOR. I am the one who gave him that other spelling because I didn't spell it right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the second paragraph on that same page, the last sentence, you have added the words "Texas Postcards and Novelty, Dallas, Texas" before the words "Dexter Press, West Nyack, New York" so that that sentence reads: "He is presently a salesman of colored postcards for Texas Postcard and Novelty, Dallas, Texas, Dexter Press, West Nyack, New York." Now let me ask you this. Are the Texas Postcard and Novelty Company and Dexter Press----
Mr. SENATOR. Excuse me, they make the cards, they print the cards.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So what you really do is you sell these cards for Dexter Postcard?
Mr. SENATOR. No: I don't sell them for Dexter.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You sell them for Texas Postcard and Novelty?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. From Dexter Press?
Mr. SENATOR. Dexter are the ones who make prints.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me add the word "from." I have added the word "from." I will hand you back Mr. Moore's report. Why don't you continue on through it and read whatever it is that you think should be changed and then we will make the changes.
Mr. SENATOR. This "He made business calls and stopped for lunch at a place called Jacques," now shall I put in front of lunch----
Mr. GRIFFIN. It is understood you didn't have anything to eat but had something to drink. A cocktail or something?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I had two bottles of beer. Do you want that changed?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you cross out "lunch" and say "two bottles of beer."
Mr. SENATOR. Now maybe I said I had lunch. I don't even remember. I ain't going to question this. You know that I just changed that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You changed lunch to what? What did you write, two bottles of beer?
Mr. SENATOR. "Two beers." Just a misspelling of a street here. Do you want that corrected?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; if you would.
Mr. SENATOR. With the same category as the beer place, the name of the street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, correct the spelling. What is the name? You have changed the word Carol Street on page 3 from C-a-r-o-l to C-a-r-r-o-l-l. That is fine.
Mr. SENATOR. Do you want that initialed?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; if you would please.
Mr. SENATOR. "He returned to the apartment and went to bed approximately 10:30 p.m. He does not recall seeing Ruby again that day." It is not recall seeing him, I didn't see him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you change recall to didn't.
Mr. SENATOR. Now I stated here for the point of information before that

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"Jack told him" which is me "that he had been at his sister Eva's place," said that he had bought food for her." In other words, when he bought all this stuff there he bought her some too.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, it was your understanding when you talked with Agent Moore that Jack had bought the sandwiches and so forth before he went to Eva Grant's house on Friday night?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now let me ask you this. When I am talking to them, are they taking this word by word or what? Do you know? know myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It depends. Of course I wasn't at this interview.
Mr. SENATOR. I know that. This is why I asked you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. They are obviously not taking it down word for word as our court stenographer is here.
Mr. SENATOR. I know they do it in longhand which is tough. It is not easy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He is taking notes which hopefully are going to be accurate. After all, these men are highly trained people.
Mr. SENATOR. I am certain they are.
Mr. GRIFFIN. They are trained to take notes.
Mr. SENATOR. I am certain they are.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And to do it as accurately as they can. But there are mistakes that crop up.
Mr. SENATOR. Who isn't fallible somewhere or another. I think there is a misinterpretation of this word that "he had bought food for her." Brought food for her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it make any difference?
Mr. SENATOR. Not in all reality, I don't know, because when he bought all this food, if you asked me how much he bought I don't know but apparently, I have been under the impression that he bought quite a bit of things, because if he took food over to the police station, he couldn't go there with six or seven sandwiches I know if he was working of that nature, to bring food over there. So I assumed there must have been many, many sandwiches and pastries of some nature that he had brought over there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am interested, Mr. Senator, in this. That even in this interview with Mr. Moore on the 3d of December you don't make any reference about Jack telling you that he went to the police station.
Mr. SENATOR. Maybe I forgot that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And that is why I ask you again if it is not possible now this interview was not under the same kind of pressure?
Mr. SENATOR. No; that is right. You are right on that. All I can say is maybe it is just a thing that slipped my mind.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or is it possible that in fact all you remembered was that Jack had said that he bought food for Eva, and that he hadn't mentioned anything about going to the police station?
Mr. SENATOR. No; this is the same time when he bought all this stuff, when he bought these bags. Mind you, when I mentioned about these bags, this is the first time that I have even thought about this to anybody that I spoke to, see.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now keep in mind the distinction between what Jack----
Mr. SENATOR. Even though this thing slipped my mind all the way through completely.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but try to focus on this distinction, the difference between what Jack told you on Friday night or Saturday morning, and what you later learned some time afterward. I ask you if it isn't possible that you learned about Jack's going to the police station after you talked with Agent Moore, and that that is the reason that you didn't tell this to the police and you didn't tell it to the FBI and you didn't tell it to Agent Moore, because you knew about sandwiches when you talked with Moore, and when you talked with the FBI, and you knew about going to Eva's, but at that point you didn't know of any connection between the sandwiches and the police station.
Mr. SENATOR. The only way that I can really express this, it could be a probability and then it couldn't, in other words, I can't answer the question truthfully and be sure. I say I am not sure. What else could I say on that?
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, this is what we are trying to get at.

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Mr. SENATOR. I still ain't sure if I did or didn't mind you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Because the thing that I want to explore here is whether----
Mr. SENATOR. But I knew about' the sandwiches the next day because I saw them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You knew about the sandwiches, right?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But the thing I am trying to direct your attention at is whether you knew about Jack's visit to the police station and I am suggesting to you that if you had known on the 23d or the 24th about Jack's visit to the police station, you would have had some further conversation with Jack. If Jack had said, or if I had said to you, "George, I just was down to the police station and I took some sandwiches down there" on this particular day, why you would have said to me, "Did you see Oswald? What was going on? What kind of investigation?" That visit to the police station would have been a more important thing than the sandwiches. So that if Jack really told you this on Saturday, the 23d, I am suggesting that there might be some further conversation that you and he had, because you would ask him questions about what he saw, out of curiosity, and you don't seem. to recall any such conversation.
Mr. SENATOR It is not fresh in my mind right now. I am inclined to think that he did, but if I had to say 100 percent I really can't answer you now. I just don't remember now. I was sort of under the impression that I was told. It is hazy in my mind. I can't say yes or no. I am not going to say no and I am not going to say yes that he did or didn't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't have any clear recollection?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of any conversation about his being down at the police station?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don't remember, so in other words this is a thing I would have to leave in question. Here is a question that I am not even sure of. "Senator said that Ruby was very hot about this article and commented that Weissman did not spell his name as a Jew but if he were a Jew he should be ashamed of himself."
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your feeling about that now.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't" ever remember telling him that. Now I don't say that I did or didn't, but I don't know why I had the reason to say that he didn't spell his name as a Jew. Wait a minute "that he did not spell his name as a Jew" I just can't figure why I would say that because Bernard Weissman to me sounds Jewish no matter how I look at the name. This is the part I don't understand on this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it your recollection that Jack was hot under the collar about this ad?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; oh, yes. This I remember he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You found that ad independently of Jack as I understand it.
Mr. SENATOR. I found that ad Thursday night when I bought the paper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Thursday before the President arrived?
Mr. SENATOR. Or was it Friday? Thursday or Friday. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Something makes you think it was Thursday night?
Mr. SENATOR. Maybe, I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is that that makes you think that?
Mr. SENATOR. Wait a minute. I may have bought this paper Thursday night because it come out in the paper the day the President arrived when I read it. Or did it come out Friday? I don't remember. Was it Friday?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, I don't know.
Mr. SENATOR. It was a Friday's paper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the Friday morning news hits the newsstands on Thursday night, does it not?
Mr. SENATOR. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now are you in the habit of picking up a morning newspaper the night before?
Mr. SENATOR. It all depends the hour. If I am out at that hour and if the paper is out at that hour.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you did the night before the President came to Dallas?

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Mr. SENATOR. No; I don't know what I did Thursday at all. I don't know what I did. Now there is a little twist in the thing right now. After we saw the paper and the poster, he has just got this twisted around.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Read what he has and then let's talk about it.
Mr. SENATOR. "They went to the Southland Hotel Coffee Shop and had coffee, Ruby drinking grapefruit juice. While there Ruby reread the ad and made comments about it. They left the coffee shop and went to the main Dallas post office on Ervay where Ruby rang the night bell." Then it continues, but the thing is this is reversed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What you are saying is that you went to the post office before you had coffee?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. This is reversed. Now does the reversal mean anything?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. There is a bunch that you have to reverse in this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's get it straight then as to what actually happened there.
Mr. SENATOR. You want to reread it from here? It sounds all right except the reversal,
Mr. GRIFFIN. You read everything that is wrong, everything that is reversed and so forth and then we will try to put it in proper order.
Mr. SENATOR. The only thing I can do is read the reversal and leave the other as it is. In other words, when he is doing this he would have to say this was first and the other was last. I don't know how to do it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You read the text that is improper.
Mr. SENATOR. In other words, take these down in a line, is that what you mean?
Mr. GRIFFIN. From the point that it gets out of order.
Mr. SENATOR. What I just read where it was out of order?
Mr. GRIFFIN. The only two things out of order, let me understand this, are that you went to the post office before you went to the Southland Hotel?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And so the discussion you had at the Southland Hotel about the Weissman ad occurred after you saw the Earl Warren sign and after you went to the post office?
Mr. SENATOR. That is right. Now do you want some change in here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I think that is clear.
Mr. SENATOR. Let me finish the balance of this. That whole complete thing is right now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We have corrected it on the record?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. When he is quoting about a certain time, if it is an hour off or a half hour off, is there any difference?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if you have----
Mr. SENATOR. He says about which is all fight. He has got a time there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think your recollection now is more accurate.
Mr. SENATOR. No, no. All I want to know when it says about. In other words, that means approximately a certain time, in that area, is that right?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.
Mr. SENATOR. That is all. Let me ask you on something like this. Maybe I ain't reading this correct. "He said the fact that Ruby had the dog Sheba to which he was very attached in the car when he went to the police station alone would indicate that he intended to return soon."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. What is unclear about that?
Mr. SENATOR. It sounds like I was telling him that he went to the police station. This is the way it sounds to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; it sounds to me like you are saying to Agent Moore that because Jack had Sheba with him down there at the police station, you draw the conclusion that Jack just went down there on a casual basis and intended to come back.
Mr. SENATOR. All I know is that when he left the house he had Sheba with him. That I know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you draw any particular significance about his having Sheba with him? Does the fact that he had Sheba with him suggest something to you about Jack planning to kill Oswald and not planning----

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Mr. SENATOR. I'll tell you how this sounds to me like unless I'm not reading it. It sounds like I told him that when Jack went to the police office he had Sheba with him. That is the way it sounds to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; what Agent Moore, I think, is suggesting, at least the way I read it----
Mr. SENATOR. You read it. Start with "He said."
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, let's read the sentence before that.
"Senator said there were several things that may not have come to the attention of the authorities which would indicate to him that Ruby had not planned to shoot Oswald. He said the fact that Ruby had the dog Sheba to which he was very attached in the car when he went to the police station alone would indicate that he intended to return soon. Also, the fact that he had the cash receipts from the club in the car. Senator said he was convinced that Ruby had emotionally worked himself up to such a pitch that when he saw Oswald in the basement of the police station he went out of his head."
Now as I read those sentences, what you are saying is that if anybody were to learn of all of the facts that took place they should pay particular attention to the fact that Ruby had his dog Sheba in the car when he went to the police station, because that indicates that Ruby intended to come back from the police station before he went down there. Do you still feel that way?
Mr. SENATOR. That he intended to come hack?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That Ruby, if Ruby had intended--are you saying that if Ruby had intended to shoot Oswald before he drove down to the police station, he wouldn't have taken Sheba along?
Mr. SENATOR. That isn't what I said.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is not what you said?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I said I read that like it sounds to me. I must be reading it wrong but it sounds to me like I said he was going to the police station with Sheba.
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; we understand that you are not saying that at all. What I am asking you is if you mean to say that in your mind Jack Ruby would not have taken Sheba down to the police station with him if Jack Ruby ever intended to shoot Oswald.
Mr. SENATOR. I don't think he would; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But do you think he might have anyhow?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know. I couldn't answer that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you saying now as you think about this further, the fact that he had the dog with him is not an overriding fact in deciding whether Jack had any plan to shoot Oswald before he went down there?
Mr. SENATOR. To my knowledge I would say that he had definitely no plans. Now the money part----
Mr. GRIFFIN. But would you say this, that if Jack Ruby had planned, let's assume for the sake of argument that Jack Ruby planned to kill Oswald before he went down to the police station. Now if Jack had that plan in his mind, are you saying he never would have taken Sheba along with him?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I definitely don't think he would ever take the dog with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would he have done with the dog?
Mr. SENATOR. I assume he would have probably, wherever he was going with the dog, maybe he was going to the club or what it is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you say that?
Mr. SENATOR. What?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you say that?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, all I can say is I know how much he likes that dog, and the dog is always with him, no matter where he goes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any reason why Jack----
Mr. SENATOR. No particular reason.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack wouldn't figure that you or somebody else wouldn't have picked that dog up later and taken care of it?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or isn't it possible that Jack just at this point forgot about the consequences to the dog?

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Mr. SENATOR. I can't even answer that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then would you say that the mere fact that Jack had Sheba with him doesn't prove one way or another whether he planned to kill Oswald?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't think he planned nohow.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I know you don't think that, but I want to know what significance we should put on the fact that he had Sheba with him. As I understand what you have been saying now, one could draw the conclusion. that simply because he had Sheba with him doesn't prove conclusively one way or another that he had a plan or didn't have a plan.
Mr. SENATOR. I can't conceive anyhow that this man had any plans, nohow.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you knew that Jack Ruby had taken Sheba to the club and locked her in the club and left instructions for somebody to take care of Sheba, would that affect your attitude as to whether Jack planned to kill Oswald or not? Would you still say----
Mr. SENATOR. I would say it would still be of the same nature having the dog. I don't think he would do anything like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You just don't think he planned to kill Oswald?
Mr. SENATOR. No; definitely not. I just never could visualize it. I can't visualize anything like this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You also say in this, Moore also reports in this statement this language: "Also the fact that he had the cash receipts from the club in the car." Now I take it from that language that you are saying that you also think that Jack would have taken the cash receipts back to the club if he had planned to kill Oswald?
Mr. SENATOR. The only thing I can say is that I would have to guess on my own and say I can only surmise that he wouldn't have had any cash with him. That is what I would guess. I don't know. First of all, he carries money both ways, see. Now Jack has always been under the impression wherever he goes, daytime or nighttime, that money, I don't say all his money but a certain part of money, what ever he puts in, is safe in the trunk. He feels it is safe in the trunk.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's suppose Jack Ruby had done this. Let's suppose he had taken his dog Sheba to the Carousel Club, left a note for somebody as to how to take care of Sheba, and had taken all the money out of the back of his car and locked it in the safe at the Carousel Club.
Mr. SENATOR. What safe?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Didn't he have a safe there?
Mr. SENATOR. He bought a safe but it was never fixed. He bought a safe, I'll tell you the kind of a safe he bought. To my knowledge it has never been put to use. He bought a safe that fits into the ground. Did you ever see these little round things that fit into the----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Well, this thing never materialized because the structure was never made for the safe, never made into the ground. Now if he ever used the safe I don't even know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Jack ever put his money----
Mr. SENATOR. Excuse me. The reason I say I feel he didn't, which I really don't know, I don't think he did, because the safe was able to be carried. It wasn't that big thing but when you cement it' around you can't get to it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. Was Jack in the habit of putting his money in the bank?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, Jack's safe was his car?
Mr. SENATOR. Not necessarily. He had it in his car, he had it in his pocket, and he had it around the house.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you stated a while ago that Jack felt that if he had the money locked in the trunk of the car that was as good as being in the safe?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I did, but I didn't say all the monies. I said a certain part of the monies. Now what part of it I don't know, because I know he carried some in there. I know he carried some in his pocket. I know he leaves some at home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he leave any at home on the 24th?

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Mr. SENATOR. If he did I don't know. I'll tell you why, the reason I say that is because he has in the living room that has got one of these self-locks. Did you ever see these little locks on a door that you can lock. You know, you can sort of snip it off? It comes off, whatever kind of lock you call it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. He has one of them. He had one of them in the living room. See, his apartment that night was confiscated. I don't know if it was the local police. I don't know who got in there. Somebody got in there, see.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But it certainly wasn't unusual, was it, for Jack to carry all of his money on his person and in his car?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he has done that many times. But I'll tell you, when he is putting the money in his car he very seldom ever left it there for such a lengthy time like that. But this was his safest place as far as not carrying it all in his pocket.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And he felt that keeping it in the car was safer than keeping it in the house.
Mr. SENATOR. This I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you say this was the longest time that you can remember lot or that much money around with him?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; I never said that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you mean to say?
Mr. SENATOR. I never said that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, there have been times when Jack, I take it there have been periods of 3 days or more when Jack has carried $2,000 or $3,000?
Mr. SENATOR Or more. No; this is an every day occurrence with him. This is a thing that materialized 7 days a week.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So there is nothing unusual about Jack Ruby having all that money in his automobile.
Mr. SENATOR. No; it is always like that. Now if he has any money in the bank, I mean I can't quote that because I don't see that. See, he carries this money around 7 days a week. Now what he has in the bank, of course, I have quoted you that once before, I think that was yesterday, I don't know what he has got. Only when you ask what bank he has, when I mentioned the Merchants State Bank, I don't know if the guy has got $40 in there or $500, you know what I mean? I don't know.
Or whatever he has had in there or how he has had it. See, this is an unusual man when it comes to this money bit. I don't know how many times he asked me, "George, where is my money?" making me feel like I took it but he always misplaced it and always found it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this a large sum of money that he misplaced?
Mr. SENATOR. Sometimes it could be missing $200 or $300 or $400, I don't know. Whatever the stake is, he has about 4, 5 or 6 different stakes in different pockets. This man don't remember where the money is. This may sound crazy but it is true.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack own any real estate?
Mr. SENATOR No; what is he going to use for money for the real estate? A lot of people are under the impression that Jack had a lot of money. Jack didn't. Jack was, what would you classify him, as a walking bank?
Mr. GRIFFIN. He carried all his money on his person regardless of how much it was.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this man was making who knows, I don't know how much money he has got and I can't break it down and say he is carrying 10, 5 or whatever. Who knows what he has got or how much it is. But there has been 2, 3, 4, maybe more.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What, hundred or thousand dollars?
Mr. SENATOR Thousands, whatever it is. Of course, as I told you, this all goes to the rent, the help, the electricity, you know, all the utilities and things. But he is a walking bank.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this common knowledge that he carried all this money around?
Mr. SENATOR. That was common knowledge to me. How many other people knew it I don't know but I am certain other people knew it. Look, when the

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help all got paid off they were all paid off in cash. When they wanted to borrow money they were all paid off in cash. Just like here I can't quote how much money he had at any time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now .let me ask you to read over what I have marked as Washington, D.C., April 22, 1964, George Senator Deposition, Exhibit 5403, and I signed that. It is the report of Agents Rawlings and Glonek. Would you read that over, and tell me, go through that in the same fashion as we have with the others.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any additions, corrections, or explanations that you feel ought to be made to Exhibit 5403?
Mr. SENATOR. Let me go through this fast. I think there aren't but let me make sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you before we get into this, was that interview made at your request?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I was sent for. Why would I request it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't know. Some people call the FBI and tell them they have something more to tell them.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I was sent for. I have had a pretty good amount of questioning you know. I, like any other individual of the nature that I am, I don't think is too happy about all this. And who would be?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now that you raise that, we might get on the record the fact that I believe you have expressed to me at lunch during the last 2 days that you feel that this is an unfortunate circumstance in your life.
Mr. SENATOR. Certainly it is. It ain't going to do my life any good.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you explain? Would you want to convey some of the feelings here on the record that you gave to me?
Mr. SENATOR. I feel I will always be pointed at, if anybody knows my name of the nature of the conditions that surrounds me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You feel a certain amount of shame or disgrace?
Mr. SENATOR. No; let me say there will probably be a disturbance. They will always point to Jack Ruby's roommate, Jack Ruby's roommate, something of that nature, you know. What does phonetic mean?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That means that they don't know whether the spelling is correct, but without knowing how to correctly spell it that is the way they would write it, from the sound. Mr. Senator, as you read through that if you come to anything that you think ought to be modified or changed, why, point it out, because I assume that the two pages that you have read so far----
Mr. SENATOR. I am reading it pretty fast. I am a little bit on the punchy side, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you want us to walk out and sort of relieve your mind.
Mr. SENATOR. No; there is one item in here where it states "He carried his money in a sack." This is only partial. It was in his pockets, in the sack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The trunk of the car?
Mr. SENATOR. The trunk of the car. No, no; mind you if it is in the sack it goes in the trunk of the car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Anything else in that interview report that you would want to----
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don't know if this means anything, it is in his pocket, to you I mean. I don't know. This says here where he took the revolver and placed it on the bag on top of the money. This is not always----
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he place on the bag on top of the money?
Mr. SENATOR. The gun on top of the moneybag. "Placed it in the bag on top of the money." To me it is not important. The gun may be next to it or something like that, who knows where he put it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now let me ask you a couple of closing questions. One thing we haven't talked about here. That was, how many sets of keys did Jack Ruby have?
Mr. SENATOR. To the clubs?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have more than one key chain?
Mr. SENATOR. I think he had two small ones. I think one for the car, I'm not

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sure now. He had keys but I don't know what they all fit you know. I think he had one for the car and I think one for the place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he keep all of his car keys on one ring or did he have them on two different rings?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't know?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have one billfold or more than one billfold?
Mr. SENATOR. I have never seen a billfold.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have never seen his billfold?
Mr. SENATOR. You mean to carry his paper money in billfolds? No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Identification and things like that. Did he have a wallet?
Mr. SENATOR. I don't think he ever had a wallet. I don't recall seeing any.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see his driver's license?
Mr. SENATOR. Did I ever see his driver's license?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or social security.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When he got undressed at night did he put his billfold--what did he do with his----
Mr. SENATOR. I never seen his billfold. I think he carries them--what-he carried these things in, he had a little thing, you know a little thing that opened up and you slide it to one side or the other, sort of like what, a little money fold.
Mr. HUBERT. Sort of like an accordian?
Mr. SENATOR. No; it didn't even open up like that. In other words it opened up like a covered book or one of these little things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have identification in that?
Mr. SENATOR. I never seen into it. It could be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it the type of thing you could put identification in?
Mr. SENATOR. I am certain he probably could have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recognize it if you saw it?
Mr. SENATOR. The thing?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; that you describe.
Mr. SENATOR. I am not sure. I might. I couldn't say positive. As a matter of fact even the coloration, I wouldn't know if it was green or black.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any habit of leaving car keys in his automobile that you know of?
Mr. SENATOR. I think only at the garage. See, the garage is right downstairs from the club next door, which they watch his car constantly because he has rented this place on a monthly basis which he has had for I don't know how long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And where would he leave the keys then, in the ignition?
Mr. SENATOR. I think the keys were left in the ignition.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if you ever had occasion to look in the glove compartment of Jack's car?
Mr. SENATOR. I have looked at it but it is such a jingle-jangle there that it didn't mean anything as far as opening it up. There was so much gook in there, do you know what I mean?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Did you ever have any occasion to look in the trunk of his car?
Mr. SENATOR. I have seen the trunk open; yes, and that is another slophouse, with a bunch of garbage in there. I told him a thousand times "How can you open your trunk and not clean it up? How can you keep that garbage in there."
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things would he keep in there?
Mr. SENATOR. There would be papers. In other words, things weren't placed. You take a tire, you think the tire is in the right place? It could be any place in that thing there, and all the other garbage that he had in there, and papers, whatever it is. He kept his car like he kept his apartment.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't have any knowledge, or do you----
Mr. SENATOR. I have never gone through his trunk.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. As to what he had in there?
Mr. SENATOR. In the trunk?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No. To me it looked like a bunch of garbage he had in there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever had occasion to drive his automobile?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but very seldom because he didn't want me to handle it and I'll tell you why. No insurance. That is why he didn't want me to drive his car. Very seldom was I ever allowed to drive that car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the occasions when you drove his automobile, from where did you get the automobile keys?
Mr. SENATOR. From him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Off of his person?
Mr. SENATOR Yes; from the house, yes, when he was home. And sometimes I would drive for him when he is tired, like he feels he is going to fall asleep, and I have done this you know from the club to the apartment where he feels he maybe fall asleep at the wheel. This is one of the things where he wouldn't let me drive because he had no insurance, and I wasn't anxious to drive the car on account of that either.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you and I have had lunch together.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And we have had breaks here and on these occasions we have talked an