The testimony of Earle V. Brown was taken at 4:40 p.m., on April 7, 1964, in the
office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Street,
Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel
of the President's Commission.
Mr. BALL. Would you please rise, raise your right hand and be sworn?
Mr. BROWN. All right.
Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give will be the the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. BROWN. I do.
Mr. BALL. Sit down. State your name and address, please.
Mr. BROWN. Earle V. Brown, 618 North Rosemont.
Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?
Mr. BROWN. Policeman.
Mr. BALL With the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How long have you been a policeman?
Mr. BROWN. Fourteen years.
Mr. BALL. Where were you born and what is your education and training?
Mr. BROWN. I was born on a farm near Lyons, Nebraska, in 1917, and I completed
12 years of schooling, high school.
Mr. BALL. High school?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. BROWN. Well, I stayed on the farm until 1939, then I moved to Ohio; Lima,
Ohio. I was inducted into the Army and was in there 4 years, 5 months,
discharged 1945, August 15, and I was here in Dallas actually when I was
discharged and then back to Ohio for about 4 years. Then, let's see, that would
be August of 1949, we came back to Dallas and then February 27, 1950, 1 joined
the police force.
Mr BALL. Now, you are a patrolman, aren't you?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1964, were you assigned to a certain post on duty?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. BROWN. That would be the railroad overpass over Stemmons Expressway service
road.
Mr. BALL. Is that the one that leads off Elm?
Mr. BROWN. You mean that crosses Elm?
Mr. BALL. That crosses Elm, yes; the overpass across Elm. Mr. Brown. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. What does it cross?
Mr. BROWN. It's over Stemmons Expressway; in other words, they make that turn
off Elm and go up.
Mr. BALL. You know where Elm, the corner of Elm and Houston is?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
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Mr. BALL. Then there is a road, the highway continues on to the west, a little
south, is that what you call the Stemmons Expressway?
Mr. BROWN. There's one there, too, but that overpass is actually a road. Where I
was was the railroad overpass.
Mr. BALL. The railroad overpass itself?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How far were you from the place where the continuation of Elm goes
under the overpass?
Mr. BROWN. Oh, approximately 100 yards.
Mr. BALL. Let me see if we can get something in the record that will be our
position. You were appointed to this particular spot?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was there another patrolman on the overpass also?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; James Lomax.
Mr. BALL. Now, this is the place where the railroad yards run over the highway?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And you are on the Stemmons Freeway end of it?
Mr. BROWN. That's right; in other words, Stemmons Freeway and the service road
both go under the underpass.
Mr. BALL. What is his name?
Mr. BROWN. James Lomax.
Mr. BALL. How far were you from the point where Elm Street goes under the
underpass?
Mr. BROWN. I would say approximately 100 yards.
Mr. BALL. Approximately 100 yards in what direction?
Mr. BROWN. That would be---wouldn't be straight east, but it would be to
easterly, kind of off at an angle---I would say about from us about a 20° angle
to the right.
Mr. BALL. You would be east or west?
Mr. BROWN. We would be to the southwest of that.
Mr. BALL. You would be to the southwest of that?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, I would say that's about right.
Mr. BALL. Did you have the corner of Houston and Elm Street in sight from where
you were located?
Mr. BROWN. Actually, we could see cars moving there, you know, coming and making
the turn, but the intersection, that would be about all we probably could see
would be cars.
Mr. BALL. Could you see cars going down after they made the turn and going down
toward the underpass south?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You could see those?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you have any instructions when you were assigned to this location?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What were they?
Mr. BROWN. Not allow anyone on the overpass whatever and walk forward and make
both ends-in other words, check both ends of the overpass.
Mr. BALL. That was you and Mr. Lomax?
Mr. BROWN. That's right.
Mr. BALL. Was there an E. V. Brown?
Mr. BROWN. That's me.
Mr. BALL. That's you, and was there also a Joe Murphy?
Mr. BROWN. Joe Murphy is a three-wheeler.
Mr. BALL. Yes; where was he?
Mr. BROWN. I don't know, sir; he was, I believe he was on his three-wheeler.
Mr. BALL. On his motor?
Mr. BROWN. I believe; I wouldn't say for sure but I don't know.
Mr. BALL. Did you people keep people off the overpass?
Mr. BROWN. We made no contact with anyone except one of the railroad detectives
come up there and talked to us.
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Mr. BALL. Did you keep the underpass free of people?
Mr. BROWN. Underneath?
Mr. BALL. No; up above.
Mr. BROWN. Up above; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What about underneath?
Mr. BROWN. Well, that was roadway there; people wouldn't be able to walk.
Mr. BALL. On the top of the overpass you kept that free of people?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you have the railroad yards in sight?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir:
Mr. BALL. They would be what direction from where you were standing?
Mr. BROWN. That would be east; that would be east of us.
Mr. BALL. East, maybe a little north?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, the whole thing kind of in that general direction, you know.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any people over in the railroad yards?
Mr. BROWN. Not that I recall; now they were moving trains in and out.
Mr. BALL But you did not see people standing?
Mr. BROWN. No, .sir; sure didn't.
Mr. BALL. Everything was in clear view?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. I withdraw the question. Was there any obstruction of your vision to
the railroad yards?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What?
Mr. BROWN. Not the direction of the railroad yard, but at ground level we didn't
have very good view. Mr. Lomax and I remarked that we didn't have a very good
view.
Mr. BALL. Was that because of the moving trains?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's motorcade come on to Houston Street from
Elm; were you able to see that?
Mr. BROWN. Now they came down Main, didn't they to Houston?
Mr. BALL Yes.
Mr. BROWN. No, sir; actually, the first I noticed the car was when it stopped.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. BROWN. After it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped.
Mr. BALL. Did it come to a complete stop?
Mr. BROWN. That, I couldn't swear to.
Mr. BALL It appeared to be slowed down some?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; slowed down.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear the shots?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How many?
Mr. BROWN. Three.
Mr. BALL. Where did they seem to come from?
Mr. BROWN. Well, they seemed high to me, actually; if you .want, would you like
me to tell you?
Mr. BALL Sure, tell it in your own words.
Mr. BROWN. Well, down in that river bottom there, there's a whole lot of pigeons
this particular day, and they heard the shots before we did because I saw them
flying up--must have been 50, 75 of them.
Mr. BALL. Where was the river bottom?
Mr. BROWN. You know, actually off to the---between us and the, this overpass you
are talking about there's kind of a levee along there. It's really a grade of
the railroad, is what it is; that's where they were and then I heard these shots
and then I smelled this gun powder.
Mr. BALL. You did?
Mr. BROWN. It come on it would be maybe a couple minutes later so---at least it
smelled like it to me.
Mr. BALL. What direction did the sound seem to come from?
Mr. BROWN. It came it seemed the direction of that building, that Texas---
Mr. BALL. School Book Depository?
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Mr. BROWN. School Book Depository.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any pigeons flying around the building?
Mr. BROWN. I just don't recall that; no, sir.
Mr. BALL. Which way did you look when .you heard the sound?
Mr. BROWN. When I first heard. that sound I looked up toward that building
because actually it seemed to come from there.
Mr. BALL. Where was it you saw the pigeons rise?
Mr. BROWN. They must have been down there feeding at that time because they just
seemed to all take off.
Mr. BALL. Where were they from where you were standing?
Mr. BROWN. From where I was standing they would be about half way between---no,
they would be up more toward that other overpass, what they call the triple
underpass.
Mr. BALL. The triple underpass?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You were about 100 yards from the triple underpass?
Mr. BROWN. Approximately; yes.
Mr. BALL. Was there anybody standing on the triple underpass?
Mr. BROWN. On the triple underpass?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; they had at least two officers.
Mr. BALL. Anybody but police officers?
Mr. BROWN. Not that I know of. I didn't recall anyone.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after you heard the shots?
Mr. BROWN. Well, let me see, by that time the escort as to the motorcycles, we
could see them coming, the front part of the motorcade, I don't think they
probably realized what happened; they had come on ahead. And then we saw the car
coming with the President, and as it passed underneath me I looked right down
and I could see this officer in the back; he had this gun and he was swinging it
around, looked like a machinegun, and the President was all sprawled out, his
foot on the back cushion. Of course, you couldn't conceive anything that
happened; of course, we knew something had happened, but we couldn't conceive
the fact it did.
Mr. BALL. Did you move out of there in any direction?
Mr. BROWN. No, sir; we, well, we checked there; the area, we kept checking that
area through there and, of course, there were people all over the place but we
didn't allow anybody up on the railroad right-of-way through there.
Mr. BALL. Was there anybody standing on the triple underpass at the point where
Elm goes underneath?
Mr. BROWN. Uh-uh, I couldn't recall; no one except police officers.
Mr. BALL. More than one?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you search any part of the area?
Mr. BROWN. We were instructed to stay at our posts, which we did, and later we
got instructions to check the area around the Depository, Book Depository
Building, and to obtain the license numbers of all those cars parked around
there, which we did.
Mr. BALL. Where were any cars parked?
Mr. BROWN. Well, there's a parking lot around that building and there was
several cars parked all around that building.
Mr. BALL. You took the license numbers?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; in fact, I think there must have been four or five officers
taking license numbers.
Mr. BALL. How long were you around there?
Mr. BROWN. Well, we stayed and then they sent us back to the overpass and we
stayed there until, let's see, I don't believe we left there until about 3:30 or
4 in the afternoon, and then we came up to the half and Mr. Sorrels, I believe
talked to us.
Mr. BALL. I think that's all, officer. This will be written up and you can take
it, read it, and sign it if you wish, or you can waive your signature, just as
you wish. Which do you wish?
Mr. BROWN. You mean today?
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Mr. BALL. It will be a week or so.
Mr. BROWN. Oh, yes.
Mr. BALL. Which do you prefer?
Mr. BROWN. What preference do I have?
Mr. BALL. Well, it will be written up and you can come in and sign it---
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL Or you can waive signature and you don't need to come in and sign is
your option; you can do either way.
Mr. BROWN. I will be glad to come in and sign it.
Mr. BALL. She will notify you. Thanks very much.
TESTIMONY OF EARLE V. BROWN RESUMED
The testimony of Earle V. Brown was taken at 2:15 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the
office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets,
Dallas, Tex, by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Mr. BALL. You have been sworn, so we will just continue with your deposition,
and your name is Earle V. Brown?
Mr. BROWN. Right; E-a-r-l-e (spelling).
Mr. BALL. Mr. Brown, I have had a map made here which I would like to have you
inspect here. The railroad overpass is shown---that runs in a north and south
direction?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And Stemmons Freeway overpass is shown---that runs north and south,
doesn't it?
Mr. BROWN. Right.
Mr. BALL. Were you on either one of those overpasses?
Mr. BROWN. Either one of those two there?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. BROWN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where were you?
Mr. BROWN. On this overpass here this TP Railroad overpass.
Mr. BALL. The overpass that runs in an east and west direction?
Mr. BROWN. Right-yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, will you take this pen and draw on there your position on the
overpass?
Mr. BROWN. Well, you see, on this overpass, of course, there are the tracks and
then there is a railing and then there is a catwalk on each side and we walked
the catwalk, and we would come around on each end and we would walk the tracks
and come around there.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw the President's car turn on Houston and
Elm Street?
Mr. BROWN. I was on the catwalk.
Mr. BALL. Can you mark your position?
Mr. BROWN. I would be approximately in the center. (Instrument marked by the
witness, as requested by Counsel Ball.)
Mr. BALL. Have you marked the place where you were?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; it would be about the center of that.
Mr. BALL. Is that where you were when you heard the shots?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And did you see anybody out on the railroad overpass?
Mr. BROWN. No, sir; I didn't see anybody there.
Mr. BALL. You don't recall seeing anybody that would either be where Elm goes
under the overpass or where Main goes under the overpass---you don't recall
seeing anybody?
Mr. BROWN. No; I don't recall seeing anyone there.
Mr. BALL. You told me yesterday you saw some officers.
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Mr. BROWN. Well, that would be the police officers---would be the only ones saw.
Mr. BALL. Do you know who those officers were?
Mr. BROWN. No, sir; at the time I did, but I wouldn't know now.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any officer on Stemmons Freeway where we have positioned
(1), (2), and (3) on this diagram?
Mr. BROWN. No, I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Now, the place where you marked your location---we will mark that as
Brown Exhibits---the X marks the position of Brown, is that correct?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. That's all. Thank you very much.
Mr. BROWN. All right.
(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Brown Exhibit A," for identification.)
Mr. BALL. Thank you very much for coming.
Mr. BROWN. All right.
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