Home

 

 

KLEINíS-SCIBOR Volume VII 370

 

TESTIMONY OF MITCHELL J. SCIBOR

The testimony of Mitchell J. Scibor was taken on May, 20, 1964, at 4540 West Madison Street, ChicagKLEIN, SCIBOR,WALDMAN,MICHAELISo, Ill., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mitchell J. Scibor, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name for the record?

Mr. SCIBOR. Mitchell J. Scibor.

Mr. BELIN. And where do you live?

Mr. SCIBOR. 2942 North Sayre Avenue, Chicago, Ill.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. SCIBOR. Employed by Klein's Sporting Goods.

Mr. BELIN. In what capacity?

Mr. SCIBOR. General operating manager.

Mr. BELIN. Were you so employed on or about November 22, 1963?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you at any time on that date contacted by any law enforcement agency with regard to a particular rifle, Serial No. C-2766?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And could you tell us the circumstances surrounding this?

Mr. SCIBOR. I got a call Friday evening, November 22, asking if it would be possible to get at the records---at our records to see if that gun had been in our possession or sold by us. I got permission from one of the executives to open the store and view our records, and I came down here somewhere between 10 and 11 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. And what did you do when you got down here?

Mr. SCIBOR. We went in with the Government men and--just before we went in, Mr. Waldman came down and we came in and he took over as far as getting-- trying to find the information that we needed.

Mr. BELIN. How did you try to find that information?

Mr. SCIBOR. By looking in our microfilm records of sales of merchandise for that particular gun.

The FBI furnished us with information stating that we had received the gun from Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. Well, did you look at the microfilms of your purchasers or your sales or what?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; we used two machines and looked at the microfilms of our sales until we had found that particular gun with the serial number.

Mr. BELIN. You were upstairs when Mr. Waldman was looking at the microfilm of which a printed copy is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7; is that correct?

Mr. SCIBOR. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. And on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7, there is a Serial No C-2766?

Mr. SCIBOR. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. Was this serial number on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 the first contact you had on Friday evening that led you to believe that you had shipped this particular rifle?

Mr. SCIBOR. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. When did you discover or find out this information, if you know--strike the question.

I believe you said you got down here about 10 o'clock that night?

Mr. SCIBOR. Between 10 and 11.

Mr. BELIN. And then you started going through your microfilm records?

Mr. SCIBOR. Right.

Mr. BELIN. About when did you actually find the microfilm of which Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 is a print?

Mr. SCIBOR. About 4 o'clock in the roaming, as far as I can remember.

Mr. BELIN. You then turned this information over to the FBI?

Mr. SCIBOR. Mr. Waldman did.

370

 

Page 371

Mr. BELIN. Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; it's a copy of our receiving record which we use to identify firearms or guns by assigning a weapon a particular booking number or control number along with the serial number so at a future date we can identify that particular gun.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 before?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I notice the date and the notations in the upper lefthand corner, RR-1243; underneath that, the date 2-22-63. Do you know what that has reference to?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; the "RR" stands for receiving record No. 1243, and that merchandise was booked or actually received by our receiving-department on 2-22-63.

Mr. BELIN. Does it show from whom it was received?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. And underneath the "Crescent Firearms," what does it say?

Mr. SCIBOR. Italian Carcano T38, 6.5 Italian caliber rifle.

Mr. BELIN. Now, there are some notations in the upper righthand corner, what does that have reference to?

Mr. SCIBOR. Those are notations strictly for the receiving department. I have the men back there keep these in rotation so that I can always fill--in the same rotation as they come out of.

Mr. BELIN. And did you do any of that writing at all?

Mr. SCIBOR. No.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not these serial numbers are assigned by people under your supervision?

Mr. SCIBOR. Repeat that.

Mr. BELIN. Well, do you have any supervision or control over the people making the entries on the serial numbers and your control numbers?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I don't believe we went into your background, general background. You might state where you were born and what educational background you have, for the record.

Mr. SCIBOR. I was born in Chicago, November 27, 1920. I finished 4 years of high school, 6 1/2 years in the Marine Corps, and Klein's Sporting Goods.

Mr. BELIN. You're married?

Mr. SCIBOR. I have been with Klein's for 18 years.

Mr. BELIN. You have been with Klein's for 18----

Mr. SCIBOR. Approximately 18 years.

Mr. BELIN. And you're married?

Mr. SCIBOR. Married and two children.

Mr. BELIN. Where is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 filed customarily?

Mr. SCIBOR. That is filed in a ,desk drawer back in the receiving department, which I designated that those should be filed.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any master control ledger or book of any kind that has these control numbers on them?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes. One copy is sent to what we call the booking department, and those are put into a master book, control book.

Mr. BELIN. Are you required by law to keep records of serial numbers of guns?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And do you find on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 your control number for a rifle with the serial number C-2766?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is your control number?

Mr. SCIBOR. VC-836.

Mr. BELIN. How are these serial numbers obtained for placement on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4?

Mr. SCIBOR. Directly off the guns.

Mr. BELIN. Does someone actually look at the gun?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; someone looks; visually they are taken off the guns.

371

KLEINíS SCIBOR Volume VII

Mitchell J. Scibor

Page 370

TESTIMONY OF MITCHELL J. SCIBOR

The testimony of Mitchell J. Scibor was taken on May, 20, 1964, at 4540 West Madison Street, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mitchell J. Scibor, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name for the record?

Mr. SCIBOR. Mitchell J. Scibor.

Mr. BELIN. And where do you live?

Mr. SCIBOR. 2942 North Sayre Avenue, Chicago, Ill.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. SCIBOR. Employed by Klein's Sporting Goods.

Mr. BELIN. In what capacity?

Mr. SCIBOR. General operating manager.

Mr. BELIN. Were you so employed on or about November 22, 1963?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you at any time on that date contacted by any law enforcement agency with regard to a particular rifle, Serial No. C-2766?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And could you tell us the circumstances surrounding this?

Mr. SCIBOR. I got a call Friday evening, November 22, asking if it would be possible to get at the records---at our records to see if that gun had been in our possession or sold by us. I got permission from one of the executives to open the store and view our records, and I came down here somewhere between 10 and 11 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. And what did you do when you got down here?

Mr. SCIBOR. We went in with the Government men and--just before we went in, Mr. Waldman came down and we came in and he took over as far as getting-- trying to find the information that we needed.

Mr. BELIN. How did you try to find that information?

Mr. SCIBOR. By looking in our microfilm records of sales of merchandise for that particular gun.

The FBI furnished us with information stating that we had received the gun from Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. Well, did you look at the microfilms of your purchasers or your sales or what?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; we used two machines and looked at the microfilms of our sales until we had found that particular gun with the serial number.

Mr. BELIN. You were upstairs when Mr. Waldman was looking at the microfilm of which a printed copy is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7; is that correct?

Mr. SCIBOR. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. And on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7, there is a Serial No C-2766?

Mr. SCIBOR. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. Was this serial number on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 the first contact you had on Friday evening that led you to believe that you had shipped this particular rifle?

Mr. SCIBOR. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. When did you discover or find out this information, if you know--strike the question.

I believe you said you got down here about 10 o'clock that night?

Mr. SCIBOR. Between 10 and 11.

Mr. BELIN. And then you started going through your microfilm records?

Mr. SCIBOR. Right.

Mr. BELIN. About when did you actually find the microfilm of which Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 is a print?

Mr. SCIBOR. About 4 o'clock in the roaming, as far as I can remember.

Mr. BELIN. You then turned this information over to the FBI?

Mr. SCIBOR. Mr. Waldman did.

370

 

Page 371

Mr. BELIN. Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; it's a copy of our receiving record which we use to identify firearms or guns by assigning a weapon a particular booking number or control number along with the serial number so at a future date we can identify that particular gun.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 before?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I notice the date and the notations in the upper lefthand corner, RR-1243; underneath that, the date 2-22-63. Do you know what that has reference to?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; the "RR" stands for receiving record No. 1243, and that merchandise was booked or actually received by our receiving-department on 2-22-63.

Mr. BELIN. Does it show from whom it was received?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. And underneath the "Crescent Firearms," what does it say?

Mr. SCIBOR. Italian Carcano T38, 6.5 Italian caliber rifle.

Mr. BELIN. Now, there are some notations in the upper righthand corner, what does that have reference to?

Mr. SCIBOR. Those are notations strictly for the receiving department. I have the men back there keep these in rotation so that I can always fill--in the same rotation as they come out of.

Mr. BELIN. And did you do any of that writing at all?

Mr. SCIBOR. No.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not these serial numbers are assigned by people under your supervision?

Mr. SCIBOR. Repeat that.

Mr. BELIN. Well, do you have any supervision or control over the people making the entries on the serial numbers and your control numbers?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I don't believe we went into your background, general background. You might state where you were born and what educational background you have, for the record.

Mr. SCIBOR. I was born in Chicago, November 27, 1920. I finished 4 years of high school, 6 1/2 years in the Marine Corps, and Klein's Sporting Goods.

Mr. BELIN. You're married?

Mr. SCIBOR. I have been with Klein's for 18 years.

Mr. BELIN. You have been with Klein's for 18----

Mr. SCIBOR. Approximately 18 years.

Mr. BELIN. And you're married?

Mr. SCIBOR. Married and two children.

Mr. BELIN. Where is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 filed customarily?

Mr. SCIBOR. That is filed in a ,desk drawer back in the receiving department, which I designated that those should be filed.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any master control ledger or book of any kind that has these control numbers on them?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes. One copy is sent to what we call the booking department, and those are put into a master book, control book.

Mr. BELIN. Are you required by law to keep records of serial numbers of guns?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And do you find on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 your control number for a rifle with the serial number C-2766?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is your control number?

Mr. SCIBOR. VC-836.

Mr. BELIN. How are these serial numbers obtained for placement on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4?

Mr. SCIBOR. Directly off the guns.

Mr. BELIN. Does someone actually look at the gun?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; someone looks; visually they are taken off the guns.

371

Page 372

Mr. BELIN. We want to thank you very much, sir, for your cooperation in helping obtaining this information.


 

KLEINíS MICHAELLIS Volume VII

TESTIMONY OF HEINZ W. MICHAELIS

The testimony of Heinz W. Michaelis was taken at 10 a.m., on May 11, 1964, at 1200 North Soto Street, Los Angeles, Calif., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Mr. George A. Rose, President of George Rose & Co., was present.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Heinz W. Michaelis, M-i-c-h-a-e-l-i-s.

Mr. BALL What is your first name?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Heinz, H-e-i-n-z.

Mr. BALL. Heinz Michaelis.

Mr. Michaelis, you received a letter last week from Mr. Rankin, counsel for the Commission, did you not?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That was what date that you received it?

Mr. MICHAELIS. I received it on Thursday.

Mr. BALL That would be----

Mr. MICHAELIS. 11---the 7th.

Mr. BALL. The 7th of May. And you were invited to give your testimony today by way of this deposition, weren't you?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You are willing to do so, are you not?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you understand that the purpose of the inquiry is to inquire into the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy in Dallas on November 22, 1963?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What is your address?

Mr. MICHAELIS. 5227 West Olympic Boulevard.

Mr. BALL. In Los Angeles?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Los Angeles.

Mr. BALL. And your business address?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Pardon me. Correction. 5755 I am sorry.

Mr. BALL. And your business address?

Mr. MICHAELIS. 1200 North Soto, Los Angeles.

Mr. BALL. Have you recently changed your business address?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. From what address?

Mr. MICHAELIS. From 1225 South Grand Avenue.

Mr. BALL. Are you employed, self-employed, or do you work for some company?

Mr. MICHAELIS. I work for the George Rose & Co.

Mr. BALL. What business is the George Rose & Co. engaged in?

Mr. ROSE. You work for Merchanteers.

Mr. MICHAELIS. Oh, pardon me; Merchanteers, Inc.

Mr. BALL. Your immediate employer is Merchanteers, Inc.?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Merchanteers, Inc.

Mr. BALL. Is that associated with the George Rose & Co.?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. In what business is Merchanteers, Inc., engaged?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Merchanteers, Inc. has mail order----

Mr. ROSE. Mail order and management.

Mr. MICHAELIS. And management.

Mr. BALL. And does it do work for George Rose & Co.?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Do I work for George Rose & Co.?

Mr. ROSE. Yes.

372

Page 373

Mr. BALL. Well, Merchanteers, Inc.---it is the mail order agency for George Rose & Co., is it?

Mr. ROSE. No; may I clarify it?

Mr. BALL. Yes; well, I better have him, and then I may ask you to clarify it.

Mr. ROSE. Yes; all right.

Mr. BALL. Tell me what you know of the relationship between George Rose & Co. and Merchanteers?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Well, Merchanteers, Inc. is a mail-order business. But, it is also a management company and makes out the paychecks for employees from the George Rose & Co.

Mr. BALL. I see. Now, what business is George Rose & Co. engaged in?

Mr. MICHAELIS. George Rose & Co. are wholesalers and sell to retail stores.

Mr. BALL. What do they sell?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Musical instruments, cutlery, firearms, watches, clocks, and various others.

Mr. BALL. Does George Rose & Co. engage in any mail-order business?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yeah; we get mail orders, too.

Mr. BALL. You take mail orders as George Rose & Co.?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. ROSE. Wholesale.

Mr. BALL. At wholesale?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Wholesale, yeah.

Mr. BALL. Now, there is also a company called Seaport Traders, isn't there?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Seaport Traders is another mail-order business.

Mr. BALL. It is another mail-order business?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. Do you work for them?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Only in a supervisory position.

Mr. BALL. That is the company that you work for, Merchanteers, you say?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Merchanteers; yes.

Mr. BALL. Is it Merchanteers, Inc.?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Merchanteers, Inc.; yes.

Mr. BALL. They manage the business of Seaport Traders?

Mr. MICHAELIS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. Now, last fall did the Federal Bureau of Investigation visit your place of business and inquire as to the sale of a certain Smith & Wesson revolver?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. About what date?

Mr. MICHAELIS. I believe it was November the 30th, a Saturday.

Mr. BALL. And in searching your records for any such sale, to what particular record did you first look?

Mr. MICHAELIS. We started first, after having received the serial number, through our serial number book for this particular type of gun.

Mr. BALL. Now, what serial number did the FBI give you?

Mr. MICHAELIS. V, as in victory, 510210-65248.

Mr. BALL. Now, those two numbers signify what?

Mr. MICHAELIS. The first number, V510210, is commonly described as the butt number, while the second number, 65248, usually is described as the crane number.

Mr. BALL. Now, the serial numbers are stamped where on the gun?

Mr. MICHAELIS. As mentioned before, the first number is on the butt of the gun.

Mr. BALL. I see.

Mr. MICHAELIS. And also it appears on the lower part of the barrel.

Furthermore, it appears also on the outside rim of the cylinder of the gun. In other words, the first number, 510210, appears three times on the gun.

Mr. BALL. And that is usually known as the serial number of the gun; is that right?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. But, we are---it is required that since Smith & Wesson revolvers carry two kinds of serial numbers, also to list the so-called crane number.

Mr. BALL. Is that also known as the assembly number, the crane number?

373

Page 374

Mr. MICHAELIS. I am not familiar with the word assembly number, but it might be possible.

Mr. BALL. What is the meaning of the word crane?

Mr. MICHAELIS. The crane is when you flip off the cylinder, inside is a crane and there is a number on the stem, which is the second number.

Mr. BALL. Do you maintain a record of all sales of guns in a book?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; in this book here.

Mr. BALL. You have the book before you, do you not?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That is a black, looseleaf notebook; looseleaf notebook with a black cover. Is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. And you keep that in handwriting, or by typewriting?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Handwriting.

Mr. BALL. Do you keep a typewritten or handwritten record?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Handwritten.

Mr. BALL. When the agent from the Federal Bureau of Investigation called on you on Saturday, November 30, 1963, you looked to your book that carries a record in handwriting of your sales?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And did you find this record of this particular gun?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I hand you here a document which is identified as FBI Laboratory No. D-191, being a photostat. Do you recognize this?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Will you compare that with the page in your notebook?

Mr. MICHAELIS. It is the same.

Mr. BALL. And that is identified in your notebook as Case No. 3?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Case No. 3.

Mr. BALL. What is the significance of the words "Case No. 3"?

Mr. MICHAELIS. It is a listing of a case which we received.

Mr. BALL. Of a case, a particular case, of guns; is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. It also has a 99 enclosed in a circle. What is the significance of that?

Mr. MICHAELIS. I presume that is the contents, the piece contents of the case.

Mr. BALL. You found, therefore, a record in your notebook, and that would indicate what? That you had sold the gun at some time?

Mr. MICHAELIS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. Now, I would like to offer and have marked this photostat of a page of the looseleaf notebook, which is identified as Case No. 3, as Exhibit No. 1 to this deposition of Mr. Michaelis.

(Whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the Michaelis deposition as Commission Exhibit No. 1 for identification by the notary public.)

Mr. BALL. Now, from that looseleaf notebook were you able to determine from what source you bought the gun?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me now where you bought the gun and when?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And from whom?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Excuse me.

Mr. BALL. Now, you have before you now a file?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And does it refer to this particular purchase of 99 guns?

Mr. MICHAELIS. No. We bought altogether 500 guns.

Mr. BALL. 500? And what is the file, the title, that you are now showing?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Empire Wholesale.

Mr. BALL. All right. Now, tell me what you found as to the source of this gun; where you bought it and from whom.

Mr. MICHAELIS. We bought it from Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, Ltd., 360 Craig Street West, Montreal 1, Quebec.

374

Page 375

Mr. BALL. And what date did you buy it?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Invoice No. 1181 dated October 13, 1962.

Mr. BALL. And it was shipped to you by the Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, Ltd., on what date?

Mr. MICHAELIS. It went---it was on 10/19/62, in St. Albans, Vt., and from then on it was directed to our place of business, which was at that time 1225 South Grand Avenue. However, the merchandise in question did not arrive before January 3, 1963.

Mr. BALL. Is that the date it did arrive?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. It was received January 3, 1963.

Mr. BALL. Off the record.

(Discussion held off the record.)

Mr. BALL. Now, when this gun was first received, what was the length of its barrel?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Five inches.

Mr. BALL. And was it changed?

Mr. MICHAELIS. It was changed.

Mr. BALL. To what?

Mr. MICHAELIS. To a 2 1/4-inch barrel.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to do that?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Well, we gave the guns out to Mr. L. M. Johnson and instructed him to make up the guns as far as barrel lengths are concerned to our specifications.

Mr. BALL. Why did you shorten them from 5 to 2 1/4 inches? Explain to me for the record.

Mr. MICHAELIS. Because we have quite frequently calls for the Smith & Wesson revolvers with shorter barrels such as 2 1/4 inch or 4 inch.

Mr. BALL. Did you shorten all of the consignment that you received?

Mr. MICHAELIS. No.

Mr. BALL. Just a certain number?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, this particular gun was shortened, then, from 5 to 2 1/4?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Johnson's number--and is that M. L. Johnson?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; just a minute. Or L. M. It is M. L.

Mr. BALL. And what is his address?

Mr. MICHAELIS. At that time, 13440 Burbank Boulevard, Van Nuys, Calif.

Mr. BALL. Now, that gun was sold, was it not, pursuant to a mail order?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; mail order.

Mr. BALL. I hand you a document which has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 135. Will you examine that and tell me whether or not you ever saw that before?

Mr. MICHAELIS. I saw it the first time on November the 30th.

Mr. BALL. The first time?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And where did you find that? Where was it when you saw it on November 30?

Mr. MICHAELIS. It was attached to our invoice No. 5371, in the records, the red copy.

Mr. BALL. Now, this particular mail order, did you have anything to do with filling that order?

Mr. MICHAELIS. No.

Mr. BALL. What is your position here? Do you have charge of the office?

Mr. MICHAELIS. I am manager.

Mr. BALL. You are manager of the office?

Mr. MICHAELIS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. And all of these records are under your control, are they?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Well, not particularly at that time because my actual supervision of the Seaport Traders, Inc., activities started later during the year. mean in September and October, when the girl in charge left.

Mr. BALL. At least in November you were in charge and in possession of all of the records of the Seaport Traders?

375

Page 376

Mr. MICHAELIS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. You have no personal knowledge, then, of the transaction by which the gun was shipped and sold?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Not prior to the first investigation.

Mr. BALL. But you are providing me with records which were under your control as of November 1963?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; correct.

Mr. BALL. Now, can you tell me who would have actually received the mail order through the mail and who would have filled the order and shipped it? Do you know what person would have done this?

Mr. MICHAELIS. There are various operations. The order was received by----

Mr. ROSE. I probably would have opened it.

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; Mr. Rose usually opens the mail and distributes the mail. This particular order would have gone to the person in charge at that time of the Seaport Traders, who was Emma Vaughn.

Mr. BALL. Who?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Emma Vaughn, V-a-u-g-h-n.

Mr. BALL. Then what would have happened?

Mr. MICHAELIS. She would have processed the order in writing up invoice No. 5371. After 1 week she gave out the order to the order filler and packer.

Mr. BALL. What is the name?

Mr. MICHAELIS. This is a title, order filler and packer. She is one person.

Mr. BALL. What is that last word?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Packer.

Mr. BALL. Packer. I see.

Mr. MICHAELIS. And the order was shipped on March the 20th, 1963.

Mr. BALL. You have been testifying from a record which you have before you?

Mr. MICHAELIS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. And that is a paper which has been marked for identification by the Federal Bureau of Investigation DL-28, Seaport Traders, Inc., No. A-5371. Is that correct? You have been testifying from information contained on that?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. That was in your records, was it, as of November 30, 1963?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; it was.

Mr. BALL. Will you tell me, describe that document and tell me its significance in your business?

Mr. MICHAELIS. This particular document is, after the order is processed, filed in our records under the name of the respective customer.

Mr. BALL. You mean after the revolver that was ordered by this mail order coupon, 135, has been packed and shipped, this invoice A-5371, is filed as a permanent record, is it, of the shipment?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct; filed under the name of the respective customer.

Mr. BALL. Now, this shows the words A. J. Hidell, P.O. Box 2915, Dallas, Tex. This appears on this invoice A-5371, does it not?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. It is described as an S. & W. .38 special, 2-inch Commando. What is the meaning of that?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Two inch is the barrel length. Commando is a description which we more or less gave because we have another 2-inch gun at a higher price and, in order that the order filler is able to identify between the two types, we have this type described as Commando.

Mr. BALL. Now, the No. 510210. What is the significance of that number?

Mr. MICHAELIS. It is the serial number of the gun in question

Mr. BALL. And it shows deposit, $10. Balance c.o.d., $19.95. What is the significance of that?

Mr. MICHAELIS. We received, together with the order, the amount of $10 in cash. Since the sales price is $29.95, the merchandise was shipped with a c.o.d for the balance of $19.95.

Mr. BALL. Does this invoice show the date it was shipped?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What was that?

376

 

Page 377

Mr. MICHAELIS. March 20.

Mr. BALL. 1963?

Mr. MICHAELIS. 1963.

Mr. BALL. Does it also show which one of your companies shipped it?

Mr. MICHAELIS. The Seaport Traders, Inc.

Mr. BALL. I would like to have this document marked, Invoice No. A-5371, as the Exhibit No. 2 to the deposition of Mr. Michaelis.

(Whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the Michaelis deposition as Commission Exhibit No. 2 for identification by the notary public.)

Mr. BALL. Now I also show you a white copy of invoice No. A-5371 which has been marked on the face as DL-27. Can you tell me what that document is?

Mr. MICHAELIS. This document is the first copy of the invoice No. 5371 which is kept in the office as permanent record and is filed in the numerical order.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me what your business custom was in March of 1963 with reference to the preparing of invoices, original invoice and copies, and shipping an item which had been ordered by mail?

Mr. MICHAELIS. The order received by mail is written up and invoiced in quadruplicate on a snap-out form. The first white copy remains in the office and is filed on a numerical order.

The second copy is used as a packing slip whereby the upper part of the invoice is torn off and used as a shipping label and the lower part used as a packing slip.

The third copy is filed permanently in the office under the name of the respective customer after the order has been shipped.

The fourth copy is the acknowledgment of the order copy and lists on the back side a statement which has to be signed by the respective customer.

Mr. BALL. What statement?

Mr. MICHAELIS. A statement to the effect, I believe that it said that the buyer states that he is a citizen of the United States, and that he has never been convicted in any court of the United States, territories, possessions, et cetera. Do you want me----

Mr. BALL. Well, now, this fourth copy that has on the back this statement by the customer, is that mailed to the customer?

Mr. MICHAELIS. It is mailed to the customer, but not .in this particular case. Indicated on the invoice are three X's, which indicates that we have already a statement to this effect on file because this particular mail order coupon has already the statement, and the name of the witness.

Mr. BALL. Now, the particular mail-order coupon that you refer to is Commission No. 135, and it has on it the statement required together with the witness?

Mr. MICHAELIS. With the witness; that's right.

Mr. BALL. And that witness' name is what?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Well, I identify it as D-r-i-t-t-a-l.

Mr. BALL. That's right. You are right.

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Then in this instance the fourth copy did not go to the purchaser?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Did not go to the purchaser; that is correct.

Mr. BALL. And the first copy is in white and is the one which you have identified?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And we will mark that as Exhibit 3.

(Whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the Michaelis deposition as Commission Exhibit No. 3 for identification by the notary public.)

Mr. BALL. The second copy is in red, is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. The second copy is in yellow.

Mr. BALL Yellow. That is the packing slip copy?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. The third copy is in red?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

377

Page 378

Mr. BALL. And that is the one you have identified as Exhibit 2, is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; that's correct.

Mr. BALL. And in this instance the fourth copy was not used, is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. Exhibits 2 and 3 were also found as a part of your original records when you investigated, or looked through your records at the request of the Federal Bureau of Investigation on November 30, 1963. Is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. I will show you another document here which is a slip of red paper marked "Railway Express Agency" which has been heretofore identified with an FBI Exhibit No. DL-29. What is that document?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Just a minute, I have to get the original. Now, this exhibit number-----

Mr. BALL. It is given a No. DL-29. Will you describe it, please?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; that is a copy of the receipt which we got from the Railway Express Agency showing that on March 20, 1963, one carton with a pistol was shipped to A. Hidell, P.O. Box 2915, Dallas, Tex. It shows, furthermore, that Railway Express is instructed to collect a c.o.d. fee of $19.95. And it shows furthermore the number of the original receipt, which is 70638.

Mr. BALL. Number of original receipt? Which receipt?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Of the Railway Express receipt.

Mr. BALL. IS this it here?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Original receipt, Railway Express receipt, is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes

Mr. BALL. Does it identify the invoice in any way?

Mr. MICHAELIS. No.

Mr. BALL. Except by name is that right?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Except by name.

Mr. BALL. And does it describe the article shipped?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Only in broad terms.

Mr. BALL. What?

Mr. MICHAELIS. One carton consisting of a pistol.

Mr. BALL. One carton, pistol. I see. I would like to have this marked as Exhibit 4, being the pink copy of a Railway Express receipt.

(Whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the Michaelis deposition as Commission Exhibit No. 4 for identification by the notary public.)

Mr. BALL. Now, a document identified as No. DL-30 by the Bureau of Investigation, receipt No. 70638. Will you describe that for me, please?

Mr. MICHAELIS. This document is required in addition by the Railway Express Agency for all c.o.d. shipments, and indicates again the name of the consignee, his address, and lists our invoice number which is, in this case, No. 5371. It directs the Railway Express Agency to remit the amount to be collected to Seaport Traders, Inc. The amount of the c.o.d. is $19.95, and the service charge has to be collected from the consignee.

Mr. BALL. I would like to have that marked as Exhibit 5.

(Whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the Michaelis deposition as Commission Exhibit No. 5 for identification by the notary public.)

Mr. BALL. Now, Exhibit 4 has been described as a Railway Express Agency receipt. Exhibit 5, which is an additional document entitled "A brief of information for c.o.d. shipment, Railway Express Agency," those were in your files when you searched for information regarding the sale of this' pistol as of November 30, 1963. Is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. Is there anything in your files which shows that the Railway Express did remit to you the $19.95?

Mr. MICHAELIS. The fact that the exhibit number--may I see this green one?

Mr. BALL. Five.

Mr. MICHAELIS. Was attached to the red copy of the invoice.

378

Page 379

Mr. BALL. Red copy of the invoice being----

Mr. MICHAELIS. No; was attached to the red copy of the invoice, exhibit number----

Mr. BALL. Two.

Mr. MICHAELIS. Indicates that the money was received.

Mr. BALL. I see. Now, these documents were delivered to the Federal Bureau of Investigation by you, were they not?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Through Mr. Wood; yes.

Mr. BALL. And these documents, Exhibits 2 to 5, inclusive, are original documents, are they not?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Exhibit 1 being a photostat of the page in your looseleaf notebook?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. Which carries the record of the sale, record of the item?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. And does anybody in your organization that you know of have any personal knowledge of packing this particular gun and shipping it?

Mr. MICHAELIS. I doubt very much that the packer would remember this particular parcel.

Mr. BALL. About how many guns of this type do you sell and ship out of here in a year?

Mr. MICHAELIS. In I year?

Mr. BALL. Yes; just a general estimate.

Mr. MICHAELIS. For Seaport Traders?

Mr. ROSE. That type of gun--we sell more .22's.

Mr. BALL. Well, about how many?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Seaport Traders, I would say that--this is a rough guess.

Mr. BALL. This particular type, that Seaport Traders might have sold maybe 120 in a year; 120, 150 in a year.

Mr. BALL. Would that be sold through mail order, or both mail order----

Mr. MICHAELIS. I am talking about particularly mail-order business from Seaport Traders.

Mr. BALL. 120 or 125?

Mr. MICHAELIS. 120, 150, Of this particular type of gun.

Mr. BALL. Is there anything else that you know about this particular transaction that you would like to tell me?

Mr. MICHAELIS. No, sir; I believe I answered all the questions of this transaction.


 

KLEINíS-WALDMAN Volume VII

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM J. WALDMAN

The testimony of William J. Waldman was taken on May 20, 1964, at 4540 West Madison Street, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

William J. Waldman, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your full name?

Mr. WALDMAN. William J. Waldman.

Mr. BELIN. And where do you live, Mr. Waldman?

Mr. WALDMAN. 335 Central Avenue, Wilmette, Ill.

Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Chicago?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's a suburb of Chicago.

360

Page 361

Mr. BELIN. And what is your occupation?

Mr. WALDMAN. Vice president of Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with Klein's?

Mr. WALDMAN. Approximately 12 years.

Mr. BELIN. And in your capacity as vice president, what are your general areas of work?

Mr. WALDMAN. Supervising office, warehouse, and retail operations, participating in the merchandising and advertising.

Mr. BELIN. What kinds of products does Klein's sell?

Mr. WALDMAN. Sporting goods in the majority, with some few specialty items which appeal to the male consumer.

Mr. BELIN. Would these include goods such as fishing items or hunting items?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not included in the products handled by Klein's are rifles?

Mr. WALDMAN. Would you restate the question?

Mr. BELIN. Does Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., handle rifles in their line of sporting goods?

Mr. WALDMAN. They do.

Mr. BELIN. For the record, we would like to have a little bit more of your overall background. Were you originally born in Chicago?

Mr. WALDMAN. No; I was born in Sedalia, Mo., November 16, 1912. Education: I don't know just what you're after.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you went through high school?

Mr. WALDMAN. I completed high school, attended Carnegie Institute of Technology, New York University. I don't know the nature of how far you want this developed.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you had some college work then?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And after you got out of college, what did you do?

Mr. WALDMAN. I got out of college and I was employed by Sears and Roebuck, Spiegel's, Inc., and various other employment, served in the U.S. Army, Air Corps branch.

Mr. BELIN. This is during World War II?

Mr. WALDMAN. During World War II. Following which I was employed for a brief period in a family business, and subsequently by Klein's Sporting Goods.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, I hand you what is being marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit I and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Could you please tell us what that statement constitutes?

Mr. WALDMAN. This constitutes a purchase order of Klein's directed to Crescent Firearms Co. for Italian Carcano rifles prepared on January 2, 19--, oh, wait a minute; hold that a moment, January 24, 1963, calling for 200 units at a cost of $8.50.

Mr. BELIN. Now----

Mr. WALDMAN. I haven't finished.

Mr. BELIN. Let me just ask you this preliminary question: This is a photostatic copy of a document, is it not?

Mr. WALDMAN. It is.

Mr. BELIN. And is the original copy, or was the original copy prepared by someone under your direction or supervision?

Mr. WALDMAN. The original was prepared under a system which I originated and this particular order was not prepared at my direction. It would be--the merchandise was ordered in a routine basis at a time in which it was needed, and----

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who the person is that filled out this order?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; his initials are so indicated as "M.W."

Mr. BELIN. Would that be the name at the lower lefthand corner of Exhibit 1?

Mr. WALDMAN. It is.

Mr. BELIN. And that is who?

Mr. WALDMAN. Mitchell W. Westra.

361

Page 362

Mr. BELIN. At that time was he an employee of your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. He was.

Mr. BELIN. Was he under your jurisdiction and supervision?

Mr. WALDMAN. He was not under my direct supervision, no. He was under the supervision of Sam Kasper.

Mr. BELIN. And where is Sam Kasper now?

Mr. WALDMAN. He may or may not be here.

Mr. BELIN. I don't mean this afternoon. Is he with the company?

Mr. WALDMAN. He is the vice president of our company.

Mr. BELIN. He is the other vice president of the company?

Mr. WALDMAN. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you started to go into the detail of what Deposition Exhibit I constituted. I just wonder if you will pick up where you left off here.

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; on the same form we show a record of the receipt of the rifles in question, specifically this extreme right-hand column which is filled in, indicating that on February 22, delivery was made to us by Lifschultz Trucking Co. I might explain the difference in the two dates here.

Mr. BELIN. Go ahead.

Mr. WALDMAN. The February 21 date is the date in which the merchandise came to our premises whereas the date of February 22, is the date in which they were officially received by our receiving department.

Mr. BELIN. Your receiving department checks each order to see that the physical contents match the stated shipment on the invoice; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. They don't necessarily see that they match because they frequently do not match, but they determine actually how much was received by us.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I notice on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. I a date well, I might read everything under the column of description; it says Italian Mannlicher-Carcano, Model 91TS, bolt action 6-shot rifle; and then cal.--that's for caliber--6.5, and then there is an "X" and 52 mm Italian-select, clean, and test-fired, changed to Beretta Terni M19, then a slash line 38 EFF, and then the date of 4/16/62. Explain that date and that description.

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; this general style of rifle was made by a number of different manufacturers over a period of time and there were minor modifications made by---developed by each of the manufacturers.

Mr. BELIN. Would this be similar to a number of manufacturers making the Springfield rifle in this country?

Mr. WALDMAN. As for example, the different manufacturers making the Springfield rifle. Basically, the weapons were of the same general design, but as I say, there were details that were different.

We originally had ordered one style of Carcano rifle, one that was known as the Model 91TS. As time went on, we changed to another model known as the Model 91/38EFF, this on April 13, 1962.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I also note on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, under the item number--some letters here or numbers----

Mr. WALDMAN. C20-T749.

Mr. BELIN. What does that signify?

Mr. WALDMAN. This is an identification number assigned by us for internal operating purposes.

Mr. BELIN. Would this be something akin to a catalog number?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Off the record now. Can I speak without being----

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

(Whereupon, discussion was had off the record.)

Mr. BELIN. On the record.

Now, Mr. Waldman, you just requested to go off the record and told me that this is, the number that you read is not necessarily the only number that is assigned to one of these model rifles. Do you ever have any other numbers assigned to them?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What would be the occasion for assigning a different number?

Mr. WALDMAN. When the rifle is offered and sold together with a scope and

362

Page 363

mount, we assign a different catalog number which describes the rifle, the scope and the mount.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever sell any of these particular rifles with scopes and mounts?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were these scopes and mounts purchased from the same source as the rifle itself?

Mr. WALDMAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, does the date April 13, 1962, have anything to do with the time with which you received orders from customers of Klein's for any of these rifles?

Mr. WALDMAN. That date has no reference to our activity with consumers as such. It only indicates in our buying of these rifles we changed from one model to another, both models being very similar.

Mr. BELIN. Both being the Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 caliber rifle?

Mr. WALDMAN. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit 2 and ask you to state if you know what that is.

Mr. WALDMAN. I do.

Mr. BELIN. What is it?

Mr. WALDMAN. This is a delivery receipt from the Lifschultz Fast Freight covering 10 cases of guns delivered to Klein's on February 21, 1963, from Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. I note that there is some handwriting on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 2 that says, "Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., J. A. Mueller, 2--21-63." Would that be one of your employees at that time?

Mr. WALDMAN. He was. Mr. Mueller was in charge of our receiving department at that time.

Mr. BELIN. And do you know how many guns or rifles would have been packed in each carton or case?

Mr. WALDMAN. Referring to the various delivery receipts, copies of which we have, these are packing slips, incidentally, not receipts; these were packing receipts included in each case. It was indicated there were 10 rifles in each case.

Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; these are memos prepared by Crescent Firearms showing serial numbers of rifles that were shipped to us and each one of these represents those rifles that were contained in a case.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you earlier mentioned that these were packed with the case.

Mr. WALDMAN. Well, I would like to correct that. This particular company does not include these with the cases, but sends these memos separately with their invoice.

Mr. BELIN. Now, again, Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 is a photostatic copy. Do you have the actual copies that came to you in front of you at this time?

Mr. WALDMAN. I do.

Mr. BELIN. And is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 an accurate photostat of these other copies?

Mr. WALDMAN. It is.

Mr. BELIN. I notice that there are numbers on each of these papers with 10 serial numbers each. I see here No. 3672, 3504 on the first photostat of Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3. Do you see that?

Mr. WALDMAN. I do.

Mr. BELIN. I'm going to ask you to search through these 10 photostats and see if you find any invoice number that has on it a serial number, C-2766.

Mr. WALDMAN. Crescent Firearms delivery memo No. 3620 covering carton or case No. 3376 does have a--indicate a rifle bearing serial No. 2766.

Mr. BELIN. Well, is it 2766 or is there a prefix to it?

Mr. WALDMAN. There is a prefix, C-2766.

Mr. BELIN. And you see that as also a part of Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3; I believe you are reading from the actual document in your possession

363

Page 364

which Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 is a photostat of; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. When a shipment of rifles is received, what is your procedure with regard to record keeping on the serial numbers of the rifles?

Mr. WALDMAN. We assign to each rifle a control number which is a number used by us to record the history of the gun while it is in our possession and until it is sold, thus each rifle will be tagged with both this control number and with the serial number of the rifle which is stamped on the--imprinted on the gun by the manufacturer.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have the same--does the same manufacturer give different serial numbers for each weapon that the manufacturer makes?

Mr. WALDMAN. The gun manufacturers imprint a different number on each gun. It's stamped into the frame of the gun and serves as a unique identification for each gun.

Mr. BELIN. Well, I hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is the record created by us showing the control number we have assigned to the gun together with the serial number that is imprinted in the frame of the gun.

Mr. BELIN. Now, this is a photostat, I believe, of records you have in front of you on your desk right now?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Do you find anywhere on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 the serial number C--2766?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And what is your control number for that?

Mr. WALDMAN. Our control number for that is VC-836.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 5 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is an invoice rendered us by Crescent Firearms on their date February 7, 1963, for one hundred each 6.5 Italian rifles.

Mr. BELIN. Is there, anything on that invoice that shows how the rifles were shipped to you?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's indicated as having been shipped by the North Penn Transfer-Lifschultz and that there were 10 cases or cartons.

Mr. BELIN. Does it show whether or not this invoice was paid?

Mr. WALDMAN. It shows that payment was made on March 4, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, were you ever contacted by any law enforcement agency about the disposition of this Mannlicher-Carcano rifle that had the serial number C-2766 on it?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; on the night of November 22, 1963, the FBI contacted our company in an effort to determine whether the gun had been in our possession and, if so, what disposition we had made of it.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know how the FBI happened to contact you or your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. The FBI had a record of a gun of this type and with this serial number having been shipped to us by Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. Do you mean that Crescent Firearms gave the FBI this information?

Mr. WALDMAN. Well, I--I must assume that's the case. I don't know it for a fact.

Mr. BELIN. All right. What did you and your company do when you were contacted by the FBI?

Mr. WALDMAN. We met with the FBI in our offices.

Mr. BELIN. Was this on Friday evening, November 22?

Mr. WALDMAN. On Friday evening, November 22.

Mr. BELIN. Did the FBI indicate at what time, what period that they felt you might have received this rifle originally?

Mr. WALDMAN. We were able to determine from our purchase records the date in which the rifle had been received, and they also had a record of when it had

364

Page 365

been shipped, so we knew the approximate date of receipt by us, and from that we made---let's see, we examined our microfilm records which show orders from mail order customers and related papers, and from this determined to whom the gun had been shipped by us.

Mr. BELIN. Are these microfilm records part of your customary recording of transactions of your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; they are.

Mr. BELIN. I'm handing you what has been marked as an FBI Exhibit D-77 and ask you if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is a microfilm record that---of mail order transactions for a given period of time. It was turned over by us to the FBI.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know when it was turned over to the FBI?

Mr. WALDMAN. It was turned over to them on November 23, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you are reading from the carton containing that microfilm. Do you know whose initials are on there?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the initials on here are mine and they were put on the date on which this was turned over to the FBI concerned with the investigation.

Mr. BELIN. You have on your premises a machine for looking at the microfilm prints?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And you can make copies of the microfilm prints?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if we can adjourn the deposition upstairs to take a look at these records in the microfilm and get copies of the appropriate records that you found on the evening of November 22.

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the microfilm machine.)

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, you have just put the microfilm which we call D-77 into your viewer which is marked a Microfilm Reader-Printer, and you have identified this as No. 270502, according to your records. Is this just a record number of yours on this particular shipment?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's a number which we assign for identification purposes.

Mr. BELIN. And on the microfilm record, would you please state who it shows this particular rifle was shipped

Mr. WALDMAN. Shipped to a Mr. A.--last name H-i-d-e-l-l, Post Office Box 2915, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. And does it show arts' serial number or control number?

Mr. WALDMAN. It shows shipment of a rifle bearing our control number VC-836 and serial number C-2766.

Mr. BELIN. Is there a price shown for that?

Mr. WALDMAN. Price is $19.95, plus $1.50 postage and handling, or a total of $21.45.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I see another number off to the left. What is this number?

Mr. WALDMAN. The number that you referred to, C20-T750 is a catalog number.

Mr. BELIN. And after that, there appears some words of identification or description. Can you state what that is?

Mr. WALDMAN. The number designates an item which we sell, namely, an Italian carbine, 6.5 caliber rifle with the 4X scope.

Mr. BELIN. Is there a date of shipment which appears on this microfilm record?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the date of shipment was March 20, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. Does it show by what means it was shipped?

Mr. WALDMAN. It was shipped by parcel post as indicated by this circle around the letters "PP."

Mr. BELIN. Does it show if any amount was enclosed with the order itself?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the amount that was enclosed with the order was $21.45, as designated on the right-hand side of this order blank here.

Mr. BELIN. Opposite the words "total amount enclosed"?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

365

Page 366

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything which indicates in what form you received the money?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; below the amount is shown the letters "MO" designating money order.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I see the extreme top of this microfilm, the date, March 13, 1963; to what does that refer?

Mr. WALDMAN. This is an imprint made by our cash register indicating that the remittance received from the customer was passed through our register on that date.

Mr. BELIN. And to the right of that, I see $21.45. Is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any other record that you have in connection with the shipment of this rifle other than the particular microfilm negative frame that we are looking at right now?

Mr. WALDMAN. We have a--this microfilm record of a coupon clipped from a portion of one of our advertisements, which indicates by writing of the customer on the coupon that he ordered our catalog No. C20-T750; and he has shown the price of the item, $19.95, and gives as his name A. Hidell, and his address as Post Office Box 2915, in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else on that negative microfilm frame?

Mr. WALDMAN. The coupon overlays the envelope in which the order was mailed and this shows in the upper left-hand corner .the return address of A. Hidell, Post Office Box 2915, in Dallas, Tex.

There is a postmark of Dallas, Tex., and a postdate of March 12, 1963, indicating that the order was mailed by airmail.

Mr. BELIN. Can you see the actual cancelled stamp in the upper right-hand corner?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And the stamp itself says "United States Airmail"?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And underneath that, someone has written "airmail"; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's true.

Mr. BELIN. And someone has written it addressed to you; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. And is it possible on this machine to make prints of these negatives?

(Whereupon, it was attempted to make copies of said documents.)

Mr. BELIN. I think the record should show that all of this testimony has been taken upstairs with the court reporter present in front of the actual microfilm machine itself; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, let us adjourn to your office and continue the taking of this testimony, please.

(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the office where the deposition originally commenced)

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, I'm going to mark what has FBI Exhibit D-77 on it as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 6, being the container with your initials and the microfilm record itself, which you placed on the microfilm reader and about which you have just testified upstairs.

Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is a cops made from our microfilm reader-printer of Dallas, Tex. I want to clarify that this is not the order, itself, received from Mr. Hidell, but it's a form created by us internally from an order received from Mr. Hidell on a small coupon taken from an advertisement of ours in a magazine.

Mr. BELIN. This Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 is a print from the micro- film negative which we just viewed upstair; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 8 is also a print from the

366

Page 367

microfilm record we viewed upstairs showing the actual coupon and the envelope in which the coupon was enclosed; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And do you have any general advertising program whereby you advertise in gun magazines?

Mr. WALDMAN. We do.

Mr. BELIN. Can you just give us one or more of the magazines in which this coupon might have been taken?

Mr. WALDMAN. Well, this coupon was specifically taken from American Rifleman Magazine, issue of February 1963. It's identified by the department number which is shown as--now, if I can read this--shown as Department 358 on the coupon.

Mr. BELIN. And that number also appears in the address on the envelope to you, is that correct, or to your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I believe that you said the total amount was $19.95, plus $1.50 for shipping charges, or $21.45; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. The $1.50 is for both shipping charges and handling.

Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 788, which appears to be a U.S. postal money order payable to the order of Klein's Sporting Goods, and marked that it's from a purchaser named A. Hidell, and as the purchaser's street address is Post Office Box No. 2915, and the purchaser's City, Dallas, Tex.; March 12, 1963: and underneath the amount of $21.45, the number 2,202,130,462. And on the reverse side there appears to be an endorsement of a bank.

I wonder if you would read that endorsement, if you would, and examine it, please.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is a stamped endorsement reading "Pay to the order of the First National Bank of Chicago," followed by our account No. 50 space 91144, and that, in turn, followed by "Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc."

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not that is your company's endorsement on that money order?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's identical to our endorsement.

Mr. BELIN. And I hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 9 and ask you if you can state what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is our endorsement stamp which reads the same as that shown on the money order in question.

Mr. BELIN. You have just now stamped Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 9 with your endorsement stamp?

Mr. WALDMAN. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any way of knowing when exactly this money order was deposited by your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. I cannot specifically say when this money order was deposited by our company; however, as previously stated, a money order for $21.45 passed through our cash register on March 13, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. You're reading from Waldman---

Mr. WALDMAN. From a Mr. A. Hidell of Post Office Box No. 2915, from Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. And you are now reading from Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7?

Mr. WALDMAN. As indicated on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7. Now, we cannot specifically say when this money order was deposited, but on our deposit of March 13, 1963, we show an item of $21.45, as indicated on the Xerox copy of our deposit slip marked, or identified by--as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 10.

Mr. BELIN. And I have just marked as a document what you are reading from, which appears to be a deposit with the First National Bank of Chicago by your company; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And on that deposit, one of the items is $21.45, out of a total deposit that day of $13,827.98; is that correct?

367

Page 368

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when we examined. Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, had a control number of which the last four numbers were T749, and when you shipped the rifle, you had the control number with the last four numbers as T750; otherwise the control number is the same. Could you tell us what accounts for the difference?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; these numbers that you referred to are not control numbers, as previously stated. These are known as catalog numbers. The number C20-T749 describes a rifle only, whereas the catalog No. C20-T750 describes the Italian carbine rifle with a four-power scope, which is sold as a package unit.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what the rifle would have cost without the scope?

Mr. WALDMAN. As I recall, it was either $12.78 or $12.95.

Mr. BELIN. Would the advertisement run in the Rifleman's Magazine of February 1963, have given the purchaser the option to buy with or without the if you remember?

Mr. WALDMAN. Without specific reference to the ad, I would say that it Most usually we did.

Mr. BELIN. And the purchaser would signify his preference in what manner?

Mr. WALDMAN. The customer designates whether he wants the rifle only or whether he wants the rifle with the scope by his selection of catalog numbers.

Mr. BELIN. When this rifle came to your company, was the scope already mounted on it when you got it from Crescent?

Mr. WALDMAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. Who put the scope on the rifle?

Mr. WALDMAN. The scope was mounted on the rifle in our gun ,shop, most probably by a gunsmith named William Sharp.

Mr. BELIN. Would Mr. Sharp drill whatever holes were necessary for the mounting and do the actual mounting then himself?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Would Mr. Sharp or anyone else in your company in any way sight in the sight, whether it would be boresighting or actual firing with the sight?

Mr. WALDMAN. No; it's very unlikely in an inexpensive rifle of this sort that he would do anything other than roughly aline the scope with the rifle.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any records which show where you purchased the scope?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's reasonably certain the scope was purchased from Martin B. Retting, Inc., 1129 Washington Boulevard, Culver City, Calif.

Mr. BELIN. Would it have any identification on the scope itself, if you know?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's most probable it carried the name "Ordnance Optics."

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Waldman, perhaps we'd better further identify the microfilm which show your control numbers. We marked the microfilm as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 6. Do you have any control numbers on this at all which indicate which microfilm this is?

Mr. WALDMAN. This is our film No. 38, which covers our transactions Nos. 269688 through 270596.

Mr. BELIN. And I believe that you already testified to the control number or transaction number that appears on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 as being number what?

Mr. WALDMAN. 270502.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, referring to Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3, which are the serial numbers of the 100 rifles which were made in this shipment from Crescent Firearms to you, and Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 5, which is the invoice from Crescent Firearms which has stamped on it that it was paid by your company on March 4, is there any way to verify that this payment pertained to rifles which are shown on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3?

Mr. WALDMAN. The forms submitted by Crescent Firearms showing serial numbers of rifles included in the shipment covered by their invoice No. 3178 indicate that the rifle carrying serial No. C-2766 was included in that shipment.

Mr. BELIN. Now, those forms----

368

Page 369

Mr. WALDMAN. Those forms are your exhibit captioned Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3. Now, our payment voucher No. 28966 of March 1, 1963, which is your Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 5 shows in the lower portion, second column from the left, the number 3178, which ties in with Crescent Firearms invoice No. 3178.

Mr. BELIN. And you have before you a carbon copy of a check that was written by your company to Crescent Firearms in the amount of $850, and attached to it, the attachment that shows it's for invoice No. 3178?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, do your records show whether or not the rifle was shipped with the scope mounted on it or is there any way that you know whether or not it was?

Mr. WALDMAN. Our catalog No. C20-T750, which was the number indicated on the coupon prepared by A. Hidell, designates a rifle with scope attached. And we would have so shipped it unless the customer specifically specified that he did not wish to have it attached. There is nothing in our records to indicate that there was any request made by the customer, and therefore we would have every reason to believe that it was shipped as a rifle with scope-mounted.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not the rifle would have been broken down in shipment or whether or not it would have been shipped fully assembled?

Mr. WALDMAN. It was customary for us to ship all of these rifles and scopes fully assembled, and I would have no reason to believe that this particular one would have been shipped otherwise.

Mr. BELIN. And do you know in what kind of a container it would have been shipped?

Mr. WALDMAN. It was customary for us to ship these rifles with scopes attached in a corrugated cardboard carton made for us by the Rudd Container Corporation of Chicago.

Mr. BELIN. About how long would that carton be in size, if you know?

Mr. WALDMAN. Approximately 60 inches.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever furnish any samples of this carton or any wrapping paper or tape to the FBI?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; we did furnish a sample of the carton together with the type of sealing tape that was generally used and such craft paper that may have been used for inner cushioning packing.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, when we testified upstairs in front of the microfilm machine, was the microfilm itself more clear or less clear than the photostats or prints that have been made from it?

Mr. WALDMAN. More clear.

Mr. BELIN. So it would be possible to read items on the microfilm itself that might not come out clear on the printed copies?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy appreciates all the cooperation which your company, and in particular you, have given to this situation. And we know that it's not a happy situation to you, and that the gun could have been purchased anywhere. As it happens, this particular gun was purchased with your company, and we want to thank you very much for your cooperation.

Mr. WALDMAN. Thank you.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to see the deposition before you sign it? Mr. Waldman, you have the right to read the deposition and sign it before anything further is done with it, or you can waive the signing of it, whatever you like.

Mr. WALDMAN. It would be well for me to read this because of the possibility of a transposition of numbers or other errors in the recording.

Mr. BELIN. All right. (To reporter.) Perhaps you can keep the original copy here, if you would, and give it to Mr. Waldman and mail the other copies directly to us in Washington, and then could you make whatever corrections there are and send it directly to us in Washington, and I'll give you my name if you would mail it to my attention.

369

 

 

KLEINíS-WALDMAN-SHARP-SCIBOR

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM J. WALDMAN

The testimony of William J. Waldman was taken on May 20, 1964, at 4540 West Madison Street, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

William J. Waldman, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your full name?

Mr. WALDMAN. William J. Waldman.

Mr. BELIN. And where do you live, Mr. Waldman?

Mr. WALDMAN. 335 Central Avenue, Wilmette, Ill.

Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Chicago?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's a suburb of Chicago.

360

Page 361

Mr. BELIN. And what is your occupation?

Mr. WALDMAN. Vice president of Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with Klein's?

Mr. WALDMAN. Approximately 12 years.

Mr. BELIN. And in your capacity as vice president, what are your general areas of work?

Mr. WALDMAN. Supervising office, warehouse, and retail operations, participating in the merchandising and advertising.

Mr. BELIN. What kinds of products does Klein's sell?

Mr. WALDMAN. Sporting goods in the majority, with some few specialty items which appeal to the male consumer.

Mr. BELIN. Would these include goods such as fishing items or hunting items?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not included in the products handled by Klein's are rifles?

Mr. WALDMAN. Would you restate the question?

Mr. BELIN. Does Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., handle rifles in their line of sporting goods?

Mr. WALDMAN. They do.

Mr. BELIN. For the record, we would like to have a little bit more of your overall background. Were you originally born in Chicago?

Mr. WALDMAN. No; I was born in Sedalia, Mo., November 16, 1912. Education: I don't know just what you're after.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you went through high school?

Mr. WALDMAN. I completed high school, attended Carnegie Institute of Technology, New York University. I don't know the nature of how far you want this developed.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you had some college work then?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And after you got out of college, what did you do?

Mr. WALDMAN. I got out of college and I was employed by Sears and Roebuck, Spiegel's, Inc., and various other employment, served in the U.S. Army, Air Corps branch.

Mr. BELIN. This is during World War II?

Mr. WALDMAN. During World War II. Following which I was employed for a brief period in a family business, and subsequently by Klein's Sporting Goods.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, I hand you what is being marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit I and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Could you please tell us what that statement constitutes?

Mr. WALDMAN. This constitutes a purchase order of Klein's directed to Crescent Firearms Co. for Italian Carcano rifles prepared on January 2, 19--, oh, wait a minute; hold that a moment, January 24, 1963, calling for 200 units at a cost of $8.50.

Mr. BELIN. Now----

Mr. WALDMAN. I haven't finished.

Mr. BELIN. Let me just ask you this preliminary question: This is a photostatic copy of a document, is it not?

Mr. WALDMAN. It is.

Mr. BELIN. And is the original copy, or was the original copy prepared by someone under your direction or supervision?

Mr. WALDMAN. The original was prepared under a system which I originated and this particular order was not prepared at my direction. It would be--the merchandise was ordered in a routine basis at a time in which it was needed, and----

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who the person is that filled out this order?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; his initials are so indicated as "M.W."

Mr. BELIN. Would that be the name at the lower lefthand corner of Exhibit 1?

Mr. WALDMAN. It is.

Mr. BELIN. And that is who?

Mr. WALDMAN. Mitchell W. Westra.

361

Page 362

Mr. BELIN. At that time was he an employee of your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. He was.

Mr. BELIN. Was he under your jurisdiction and supervision?

Mr. WALDMAN. He was not under my direct supervision, no. He was under the supervision of Sam Kasper.

Mr. BELIN. And where is Sam Kasper now?

Mr. WALDMAN. He may or may not be here.

Mr. BELIN. I don't mean this afternoon. Is he with the company?

Mr. WALDMAN. He is the vice president of our company.

Mr. BELIN. He is the other vice president of the company?

Mr. WALDMAN. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you started to go into the detail of what Deposition Exhibit I constituted. I just wonder if you will pick up where you left off here.

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; on the same form we show a record of the receipt of the rifles in question, specifically this extreme right-hand column which is filled in, indicating that on February 22, delivery was made to us by Lifschultz Trucking Co. I might explain the difference in the two dates here.

Mr. BELIN. Go ahead.

Mr. WALDMAN. The February 21 date is the date in which the merchandise came to our premises whereas the date of February 22, is the date in which they were officially received by our receiving department.

Mr. BELIN. Your receiving department checks each order to see that the physical contents match the stated shipment on the invoice; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. They don't necessarily see that they match because they frequently do not match, but they determine actually how much was received by us.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I notice on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. I a date well, I might read everything under the column of description; it says Italian Mannlicher-Carcano, Model 91TS, bolt action 6-shot rifle; and then cal.--that's for caliber--6.5, and then there is an "X" and 52 mm Italian-select, clean, and test-fired, changed to Beretta Terni M19, then a slash line 38 EFF, and then the date of 4/16/62. Explain that date and that description.

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; this general style of rifle was made by a number of different manufacturers over a period of time and there were minor modifications made by---developed by each of the manufacturers.

Mr. BELIN. Would this be similar to a number of manufacturers making the Springfield rifle in this country?

Mr. WALDMAN. As for example, the different manufacturers making the Springfield rifle. Basically, the weapons were of the same general design, but as I say, there were details that were different.

We originally had ordered one style of Carcano rifle, one that was known as the Model 91TS. As time went on, we changed to another model known as the Model 91/38EFF, this on April 13, 1962.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I also note on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, under the item number--some letters here or numbers----

Mr. WALDMAN. C20-T749.

Mr. BELIN. What does that signify?

Mr. WALDMAN. This is an identification number assigned by us for internal operating purposes.

Mr. BELIN. Would this be something akin to a catalog number?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Off the record now. Can I speak without being----

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

(Whereupon, discussion was had off the record.)

Mr. BELIN. On the record.

Now, Mr. Waldman, you just requested to go off the record and told me that this is, the number that you read is not necessarily the only number that is assigned to one of these model rifles. Do you ever have any other numbers assigned to them?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What would be the occasion for assigning a different number?

Mr. WALDMAN. When the rifle is offered and sold together with a scope and

362

Page 363

mount, we assign a different catalog number which describes the rifle, the scope and the mount.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever sell any of these particular rifles with scopes and mounts?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were these scopes and mounts purchased from the same source as the rifle itself?

Mr. WALDMAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, does the date April 13, 1962, have anything to do with the time with which you received orders from customers of Klein's for any of these rifles?

Mr. WALDMAN. That date has no reference to our activity with consumers as such. It only indicates in our buying of these rifles we changed from one model to another, both models being very similar.

Mr. BELIN. Both being the Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 caliber rifle?

Mr. WALDMAN. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit 2 and ask you to state if you know what that is.

Mr. WALDMAN. I do.

Mr. BELIN. What is it?

Mr. WALDMAN. This is a delivery receipt from the Lifschultz Fast Freight covering 10 cases of guns delivered to Klein's on February 21, 1963, from Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. I note that there is some handwriting on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 2 that says, "Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., J. A. Mueller, 2--21-63." Would that be one of your employees at that time?

Mr. WALDMAN. He was. Mr. Mueller was in charge of our receiving department at that time.

Mr. BELIN. And do you know how many guns or rifles would have been packed in each carton or case?

Mr. WALDMAN. Referring to the various delivery receipts, copies of which we have, these are packing slips, incidentally, not receipts; these were packing receipts included in each case. It was indicated there were 10 rifles in each case.

Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; these are memos prepared by Crescent Firearms showing serial numbers of rifles that were shipped to us and each one of these represents those rifles that were contained in a case.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you earlier mentioned that these were packed with the case.

Mr. WALDMAN. Well, I would like to correct that. This particular company does not include these with the cases, but sends these memos separately with their invoice.

Mr. BELIN. Now, again, Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 is a photostatic copy. Do you have the actual copies that came to you in front of you at this time?

Mr. WALDMAN. I do.

Mr. BELIN. And is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 an accurate photostat of these other copies?

Mr. WALDMAN. It is.

Mr. BELIN. I notice that there are numbers on each of these papers with 10 serial numbers each. I see here No. 3672, 3504 on the first photostat of Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3. Do you see that?

Mr. WALDMAN. I do.

Mr. BELIN. I'm going to ask you to search through these 10 photostats and see if you find any invoice number that has on it a serial number, C-2766.

Mr. WALDMAN. Crescent Firearms delivery memo No. 3620 covering carton or case No. 3376 does have a--indicate a rifle bearing serial No. 2766.

Mr. BELIN. Well, is it 2766 or is there a prefix to it?

Mr. WALDMAN. There is a prefix, C-2766.

Mr. BELIN. And you see that as also a part of Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3; I believe you are reading from the actual document in your possession

363

Page 364

which Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 is a photostat of; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. When a shipment of rifles is received, what is your procedure with regard to record keeping on the serial numbers of the rifles?

Mr. WALDMAN. We assign to each rifle a control number which is a number used by us to record the history of the gun while it is in our possession and until it is sold, thus each rifle will be tagged with both this control number and with the serial number of the rifle which is stamped on the--imprinted on the gun by the manufacturer.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have the same--does the same manufacturer give different serial numbers for each weapon that the manufacturer makes?

Mr. WALDMAN. The gun manufacturers imprint a different number on each gun. It's stamped into the frame of the gun and serves as a unique identification for each gun.

Mr. BELIN. Well, I hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is the record created by us showing the control number we have assigned to the gun together with the serial number that is imprinted in the frame of the gun.

Mr. BELIN. Now, this is a photostat, I believe, of records you have in front of you on your desk right now?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Do you find anywhere on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 the serial number C--2766?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And what is your control number for that?

Mr. WALDMAN. Our control number for that is VC-836.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 5 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is an invoice rendered us by Crescent Firearms on their date February 7, 1963, for one hundred each 6.5 Italian rifles.

Mr. BELIN. Is there, anything on that invoice that shows how the rifles were shipped to you?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's indicated as having been shipped by the North Penn Transfer-Lifschultz and that there were 10 cases or cartons.

Mr. BELIN. Does it show whether or not this invoice was paid?

Mr. WALDMAN. It shows that payment was made on March 4, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, were you ever contacted by any law enforcement agency about the disposition of this Mannlicher-Carcano rifle that had the serial number C-2766 on it?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; on the night of November 22, 1963, the FBI contacted our company in an effort to determine whether the gun had been in our possession and, if so, what disposition we had made of it.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know how the FBI happened to contact you or your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. The FBI had a record of a gun of this type and with this serial number having been shipped to us by Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. Do you mean that Crescent Firearms gave the FBI this information?

Mr. WALDMAN. Well, I--I must assume that's the case. I don't know it for a fact.

Mr. BELIN. All right. What did you and your company do when you were contacted by the FBI?

Mr. WALDMAN. We met with the FBI in our offices.

Mr. BELIN. Was this on Friday evening, November 22?

Mr. WALDMAN. On Friday evening, November 22.

Mr. BELIN. Did the FBI indicate at what time, what period that they felt you might have received this rifle originally?

Mr. WALDMAN. We were able to determine from our purchase records the date in which the rifle had been received, and they also had a record of when it had

364

Page 365

been shipped, so we knew the approximate date of receipt by us, and from that we made---let's see, we examined our microfilm records which show orders from mail order customers and related papers, and from this determined to whom the gun had been shipped by us.

Mr. BELIN. Are these microfilm records part of your customary recording of transactions of your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; they are.

Mr. BELIN. I'm handing you what has been marked as an FBI Exhibit D-77 and ask you if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is a microfilm record that---of mail order transactions for a given period of time. It was turned over by us to the FBI.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know when it was turned over to the FBI?

Mr. WALDMAN. It was turned over to them on November 23, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you are reading from the carton containing that microfilm. Do you know whose initials are on there?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the initials on here are mine and they were put on the date on which this was turned over to the FBI concerned with the investigation.

Mr. BELIN. You have on your premises a machine for looking at the microfilm prints?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And you can make copies of the microfilm prints?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if we can adjourn the deposition upstairs to take a look at these records in the microfilm and get copies of the appropriate records that you found on the evening of November 22.

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the microfilm machine.)

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, you have just put the microfilm which we call D-77 into your viewer which is marked a Microfilm Reader-Printer, and you have identified this as No. 270502, according to your records. Is this just a record number of yours on this particular shipment?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's a number which we assign for identification purposes.

Mr. BELIN. And on the microfilm record, would you please state who it shows this particular rifle was shipped

Mr. WALDMAN. Shipped to a Mr. A.--last name H-i-d-e-l-l, Post Office Box 2915, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. And does it show arts' serial number or control number?

Mr. WALDMAN. It shows shipment of a rifle bearing our control number VC-836 and serial number C-2766.

Mr. BELIN. Is there a price shown for that?

Mr. WALDMAN. Price is $19.95, plus $1.50 postage and handling, or a total of $21.45.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I see another number off to the left. What is this number?

Mr. WALDMAN. The number that you referred to, C20-T750 is a catalog number.

Mr. BELIN. And after that, there appears some words of identification or description. Can you state what that is?

Mr. WALDMAN. The number designates an item which we sell, namely, an Italian carbine, 6.5 caliber rifle with the 4X scope.

Mr. BELIN. Is there a date of shipment which appears on this microfilm record?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the date of shipment was March 20, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. Does it show by what means it was shipped?

Mr. WALDMAN. It was shipped by parcel post as indicated by this circle around the letters "PP."

Mr. BELIN. Does it show if any amount was enclosed with the order itself?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the amount that was enclosed with the order was $21.45, as designated on the right-hand side of this order blank here.

Mr. BELIN. Opposite the words "total amount enclosed"?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

365

Page 366

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything which indicates in what form you received the money?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; below the amount is shown the letters "MO" designating money order.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I see the extreme top of this microfilm, the date, March 13, 1963; to what does that refer?

Mr. WALDMAN. This is an imprint made by our cash register indicating that the remittance received from the customer was passed through our register on that date.

Mr. BELIN. And to the right of that, I see $21.45. Is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any other record that you have in connection with the shipment of this rifle other than the particular microfilm negative frame that we are looking at right now?

Mr. WALDMAN. We have a--this microfilm record of a coupon clipped from a portion of one of our advertisements, which indicates by writing of the customer on the coupon that he ordered our catalog No. C20-T750; and he has shown the price of the item, $19.95, and gives as his name A. Hidell, and his address as Post Office Box 2915, in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else on that negative microfilm frame?

Mr. WALDMAN. The coupon overlays the envelope in which the order was mailed and this shows in the upper left-hand corner .the return address of A. Hidell, Post Office Box 2915, in Dallas, Tex.

There is a postmark of Dallas, Tex., and a postdate of March 12, 1963, indicating that the order was mailed by airmail.

Mr. BELIN. Can you see the actual cancelled stamp in the upper right-hand corner?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And the stamp itself says "United States Airmail"?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And underneath that, someone has written "airmail"; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's true.

Mr. BELIN. And someone has written it addressed to you; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. And is it possible on this machine to make prints of these negatives?

(Whereupon, it was attempted to make copies of said documents.)

Mr. BELIN. I think the record should show that all of this testimony has been taken upstairs with the court reporter present in front of the actual microfilm machine itself; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, let us adjourn to your office and continue the taking of this testimony, please.

(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the office where the deposition originally commenced)

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, I'm going to mark what has FBI Exhibit D-77 on it as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 6, being the container with your initials and the microfilm record itself, which you placed on the microfilm reader and about which you have just testified upstairs.

Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is a cops made from our microfilm reader-printer of Dallas, Tex. I want to clarify that this is not the order, itself, received from Mr. Hidell, but it's a form created by us internally from an order received from Mr. Hidell on a small coupon taken from an advertisement of ours in a magazine.

Mr. BELIN. This Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 is a print from the micro- film negative which we just viewed upstairs; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 8 is also a print from the

366

Page 367

microfilm record we viewed upstairs showing the actual coupon and the envelope in which the coupon was enclosed; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And do you have any general advertising program whereby you advertise in gun magazines?

Mr. WALDMAN. We do.

Mr. BELIN. Can you just give us one or more of the magazines in which this coupon might have been taken?

Mr. WALDMAN. Well, this coupon was specifically taken from American Rifleman Magazine, issue of February 1963. It's identified by the department number which is shown as--now, if I can read this--shown as Department 358 on the coupon.

Mr. BELIN. And that number also appears in the address on the envelope to you, is that correct, or to your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I believe that you said the total amount was $19.95, plus $1.50 for shipping charges, or $21.45; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. The $1.50 is for both shipping charges and handling.

Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 788, which appears to be a U.S. postal money order payable to the order of Klein's Sporting Goods, and marked that it's from a purchaser named A. Hidell, and as the purchaser's street address is Post Office Box No. 2915, and the purchaser's City, Dallas, Tex.; March 12, 1963: and underneath the amount of $21.45, the number 2,202,130,462. And on the reverse side there appears to be an endorsement of a bank.

I wonder if you would read that endorsement, if you would, and examine it, please.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is a stamped endorsement reading "Pay to the order of the First National Bank of Chicago," followed by our account No. 50 space 91144, and that, in turn, followed by "Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc."

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not that is your company's endorsement on that money order?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's identical to our endorsement.

Mr. BELIN. And I hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 9 and ask you if you can state what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is our endorsement stamp which reads the same as that shown on the money order in question.

Mr. BELIN. You have just now stamped Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 9 with your endorsement stamp?

Mr. WALDMAN. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any way of knowing when exactly this money order was deposited by your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. I cannot specifically say when this money order was deposited by our company; however, as previously stated, a money order for $21.45 passed through our cash register on March 13, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. You're reading from Waldman---

Mr. WALDMAN. From a Mr. A. Hidell of Post Office Box No. 2915, from Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. And you are now reading from Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7?

Mr. WALDMAN. As indicated on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7. Now, we cannot specifically say when this money order was deposited, but on our deposit of March 13, 1963, we show an item of $21.45, as indicated on the Xerox copy of our deposit slip marked, or identified by--as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 10.

Mr. BELIN. And I have just marked as a document what you are reading from, which appears to be a deposit with the First National Bank of Chicago by your company; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And on that deposit, one of the items is $21.45, out of a total deposit that day of $13,827.98; is that correct?

367

Page 368

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when we examined. Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, had a control number of which the last four numbers were T749, and when you shipped the rifle, you had the control number with the last four numbers as T750; otherwise the control number is the same. Could you tell us what accounts for the difference?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; these numbers that you referred to are not control numbers, as previously stated. These are known as catalog numbers. The number C20-T749 describes a rifle only, whereas the catalog No. C20-T750 describes the Italian carbine rifle with a four-power scope, which is sold as a package unit.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what the rifle would have cost without the scope?

Mr. WALDMAN. As I recall, it was either $12.78 or $12.95.

Mr. BELIN. Would the advertisement run in the Rifleman's Magazine of February 1963, have given the purchaser the option to buy with or without the if you remember?

Mr. WALDMAN. Without specific reference to the ad, I would say that it Most usually we did.

Mr. BELIN. And the purchaser would signify his preference in what manner?

Mr. WALDMAN. The customer designates whether he wants the rifle only or whether he wants the rifle with the scope by his selection of catalog numbers.

Mr. BELIN. When this rifle came to your company, was the scope already mounted on it when you got it from Crescent?

Mr. WALDMAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. Who put the scope on the rifle?

Mr. WALDMAN. The scope was mounted on the rifle in our gun ,shop, most probably by a gunsmith named William Sharp.

Mr. BELIN. Would Mr. Sharp drill whatever holes were necessary for the mounting and do the actual mounting then himself?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Would Mr. Sharp or anyone else in your company in any way sight in the sight, whether it would be boresighting or actual firing with the sight?

Mr. WALDMAN. No; it's very unlikely in an inexpensive rifle of this sort that he would do anything other than roughly aline the scope with the rifle.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any records which show where you purchased the scope?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's reasonably certain the scope was purchased from Martin B. Retting, Inc., 1129 Washington Boulevard, Culver City, Calif.

Mr. BELIN. Would it have any identification on the scope itself, if you know?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's most probable it carried the name "Ordnance Optics."

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Waldman, perhaps we'd better further identify the microfilm which show your control numbers. We marked the microfilm as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 6. Do you have any control numbers on this at all which indicate which microfilm this is?

Mr. WALDMAN. This is our film No. 38, which covers our transactions Nos. 269688 through 270596.

Mr. BELIN. And I believe that you already testified to the control number or transaction number that appears on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 as being number what?

Mr. WALDMAN. 270502.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, referring to Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3, which are the serial numbers of the 100 rifles which were made in this shipment from Crescent Firearms to you, and Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 5, which is the invoice from Crescent Firearms which has stamped on it that it was paid by your company on March 4, is there any way to verify that this payment pertained to rifles which are shown on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3?

Mr. WALDMAN. The forms submitted by Crescent Firearms showing serial numbers of rifles included in the shipment covered by their invoice No. 3178 indicate that the rifle carrying serial No. C-2766 was included in that shipment.

Mr. BELIN. Now, those forms----

368

Page 369

Mr. WALDMAN. Those forms are your exhibit captioned Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3. Now, our payment voucher No. 28966 of March 1, 1963, which is your Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 5 shows in the lower portion, second column from the left, the number 3178, which ties in with Crescent Firearms invoice No. 3178.

Mr. BELIN. And you have before you a carbon copy of a check that was written by your company to Crescent Firearms in the amount of $850, and attached to it, the attachment that shows it's for invoice No. 3178?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, do your records show whether or not the rifle was shipped with the scope mounted on it or is there any way that you know whether or not it was?

Mr. WALDMAN. Our catalog No. C20-T750, which was the number indicated on the coupon prepared by A. Hidell, designates a rifle with scope attached. And we would have so shipped it unless the customer specifically specified that he did not wish to have it attached. There is nothing in our records to indicate that there was any request made by the customer, and therefore we would have every reason to believe that it was shipped as a rifle with scope-mounted.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not the rifle would have been broken down in shipment or whether or not it would have been shipped fully assembled?

Mr. WALDMAN. It was customary for us to ship all of these rifles and scopes fully assembled, and I would have no reason to believe that this particular one would have been shipped otherwise.

Mr. BELIN. And do you know in what kind of a container it would have been shipped?

Mr. WALDMAN. It was customary for us to ship these rifles with scopes attached in a corrugated cardboard carton made for us by the Rudd Container Corporation of Chicago.

Mr. BELIN. About how long would that carton be in size, if you know?

Mr. WALDMAN. Approximately 60 inches.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever furnish any samples of this carton or any wrapping paper or tape to the FBI?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; we did furnish a sample of the carton together with the type of sealing tape that was generally used and such craft paper that may have been used for inner cushioning packing.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, when we testified upstairs in front of the microfilm machine, was the microfilm itself more clear or less clear than the photostats or prints that have been made from it?

Mr. WALDMAN. More clear.

Mr. BELIN. So it would be possible to read items on the microfilm itself that might not come out clear on the printed copies?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy appreciates all the cooperation which your company, and in particular you, have given to this situation. And we know that it's not a happy situation to you, and that the gun could have been purchased anywhere. As it happens, this particular gun was purchased with your company, and we want to thank you very much for your cooperation.

Mr. WALDMAN. Thank you.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to see the deposition before you sign it? Mr. Waldman, you have the right to read the deposition and sign it before anything further is done with it, or you can waive the signing of it, whatever you like.

Mr. WALDMAN. It would be well for me to read this because of the possibility of a transposition of numbers or other errors in the recording.

Mr. BELIN. All right. (To reporter.) Perhaps you can keep the original copy here, if you would, and give it to Mr. Waldman and mail the other copies directly to us in Washington, and then could you make whatever corrections there are and send it directly to us in Washington, and I'll give you my name if you would mail it to my attention.

369

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mitchell J. Scibor

Page 370

TESTIMONY OF MITCHELL J. SCIBOR

The testimony of Mitchell J. Scibor was taken on May, 20, 1964, at 4540 West Madison Street, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mitchell J. Scibor, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name for the record?

Mr. SCIBOR. Mitchell J. Scibor.

Mr. BELIN. And where do you live?

Mr. SCIBOR. 2942 North Sayre Avenue, Chicago, Ill.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. SCIBOR. Employed by Klein's Sporting Goods.

Mr. BELIN. In what capacity?

Mr. SCIBOR. General operating manager.

Mr. BELIN. Were you so employed on or about November 22, 1963?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you at any time on that date contacted by any law enforcement agency with regard to a particular rifle, Serial No. C-2766?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And could you tell us the circumstances surrounding this?

Mr. SCIBOR. I got a call Friday evening, November 22, asking if it would be possible to get at the records---at our records to see if that gun had been in our possession or sold by us. I got permission from one of the executives to open the store and view our records, and I came down here somewhere between 10 and 11 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. And what did you do when you got down here?

Mr. SCIBOR. We went in with the Government men and--just before we went in, Mr. Waldman came down and we came in and he took over as far as getting-- trying to find the information that we needed.

Mr. BELIN. How did you try to find that information?

Mr. SCIBOR. By looking in our microfilm records of sales of merchandise for that particular gun.

The FBI furnished us with information stating that we had received the gun from Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. Well, did you look at the microfilms of your purchasers or your sales or what?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; we used two machines and looked at the microfilms of our sales until we had found that particular gun with the serial number.

Mr. BELIN. You were upstairs when Mr. Waldman was looking at the microfilm of which a printed copy is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7; is that correct?

Mr. SCIBOR. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. And on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7, there is a Serial No C-2766?

Mr. SCIBOR. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. Was this serial number on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 the first contact you had on Friday evening that led you to believe that you had shipped this particular rifle?

Mr. SCIBOR. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. When did you discover or find out this information, if you know--strike the question.

I believe you said you got down here about 10 o'clock that night?

Mr. SCIBOR. Between 10 and 11.

Mr. BELIN. And then you started going through your microfilm records?

Mr. SCIBOR. Right.

Mr. BELIN. About when did you actually find the microfilm of which Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 is a print?

Mr. SCIBOR. About 4 o'clock in the roaming, as far as I can remember.

Mr. BELIN. You then turned this information over to the FBI?

Mr. SCIBOR. Mr. Waldman did.

370

 

Page 371

Mr. BELIN. Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; it's a copy of our receiving record which we use to identify firearms or guns by assigning a weapon a particular booking number or control number along with the serial number so at a future date we can identify that particular gun.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 before?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I notice the date and the notations in the upper lefthand corner, RR-1243; underneath that, the date 2-22-63. Do you know what that has reference to?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; the "RR" stands for receiving record No. 1243, and that merchandise was booked or actually received by our receiving-department on 2-22-63.

Mr. BELIN. Does it show from whom it was received?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. And underneath the "Crescent Firearms," what does it say?

Mr. SCIBOR. Italian Carcano T38, 6.5 Italian caliber rifle.

Mr. BELIN. Now, there are some notations in the upper righthand corner, what does that have reference to?

Mr. SCIBOR. Those are notations strictly for the receiving department. I have the men back there keep these in rotation so that I can always fill--in the same rotation as they come out of.

Mr. BELIN. And did you do any of that writing at all?

Mr. SCIBOR. No.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not these serial numbers are assigned by people under your supervision?

Mr. SCIBOR. Repeat that.

Mr. BELIN. Well, do you have any supervision or control over the people making the entries on the serial numbers and your control numbers?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I don't believe we went into your background, general background. You might state where you were born and what educational background you have, for the record.

Mr. SCIBOR. I was born in Chicago, November 27, 1920. I finished 4 years of high school, 6 1/2 years in the Marine Corps, and Klein's Sporting Goods.

Mr. BELIN. You're married?

Mr. SCIBOR. I have been with Klein's for 18 years.

Mr. BELIN. You have been with Klein's for 18----

Mr. SCIBOR. Approximately 18 years.

Mr. BELIN. And you're married?

Mr. SCIBOR. Married and two children.

Mr. BELIN. Where is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 filed customarily?

Mr. SCIBOR. That is filed in a ,desk drawer back in the receiving department, which I designated that those should be filed.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any master control ledger or book of any kind that has these control numbers on them?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes. One copy is sent to what we call the booking department, and those are put into a master book, control book.

Mr. BELIN. Are you required by law to keep records of serial numbers of guns?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And do you find on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 your control number for a rifle with the serial number C-2766?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is your control number?

Mr. SCIBOR. VC-836.

Mr. BELIN. How are these serial numbers obtained for placement on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4?

Mr. SCIBOR. Directly off the guns.

Mr. BELIN. Does someone actually look at the gun?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; someone looks; visually they are taken off the guns.

371

Page 372

Mr. BELIN. We want to thank you very much, sir, for your cooperation in helping obtaining this information.

KLEINíS-SCIBOR Volume VII 370

 

TESTIMONY OF MITCHELL J. SCIBOR

The testimony of Mitchell J. Scibor was taken on May, 20, 1964, at 4540 West Madison Street, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mitchell J. Scibor, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name for the record?

Mr. SCIBOR. Mitchell J. Scibor.

Mr. BELIN. And where do you live?

Mr. SCIBOR. 2942 North Sayre Avenue, Chicago, Ill.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. SCIBOR. Employed by Klein's Sporting Goods.

Mr. BELIN. In what capacity?

Mr. SCIBOR. General operating manager.

Mr. BELIN. Were you so employed on or about November 22, 1963?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you at any time on that date contacted by any law enforcement agency with regard to a particular rifle, Serial No. C-2766?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And could you tell us the circumstances surrounding this?

Mr. SCIBOR. I got a call Friday evening, November 22, asking if it would be possible to get at the records---at our records to see if that gun had been in our possession or sold by us. I got permission from one of the executives to open the store and view our records, and I came down here somewhere between 10 and 11 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. And what did you do when you got down here?

Mr. SCIBOR. We went in with the Government men and--just before we went in, Mr. Waldman came down and we came in and he took over as far as getting-- trying to find the information that we needed.

Mr. BELIN. How did you try to find that information?

Mr. SCIBOR. By looking in our microfilm records of sales of merchandise for that particular gun.

The FBI furnished us with information stating that we had received the gun from Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. Well, did you look at the microfilms of your purchasers or your sales or what?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; we used two machines and looked at the microfilms of our sales until we had found that particular gun with the serial number.

Mr. BELIN. You were upstairs when Mr. Waldman was looking at the microfilm of which a printed copy is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7; is that correct?

Mr. SCIBOR. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. And on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7, there is a Serial No C-2766?

Mr. SCIBOR. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. Was this serial number on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 the first contact you had on Friday evening that led you to believe that you had shipped this particular rifle?

Mr. SCIBOR. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. When did you discover or find out this information, if you know--strike the question.

I believe you said you got down here about 10 o'clock that night?

Mr. SCIBOR. Between 10 and 11.

Mr. BELIN. And then you started going through your microfilm records?

Mr. SCIBOR. Right.

Mr. BELIN. About when did you actually find the microfilm of which Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 is a print?

Mr. SCIBOR. About 4 o'clock in the roaming, as far as I can remember.

Mr. BELIN. You then turned this information over to the FBI?

Mr. SCIBOR. Mr. Waldman did.

370

 

Page 371

Mr. BELIN. Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; it's a copy of our receiving record which we use to identify firearms or guns by assigning a weapon a particular booking number or control number along with the serial number so at a future date we can identify that particular gun.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 before?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I notice the date and the notations in the upper lefthand corner, RR-1243; underneath that, the date 2-22-63. Do you know what that has reference to?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; the "RR" stands for receiving record No. 1243, and that merchandise was booked or actually received by our receiving-department on 2-22-63.

Mr. BELIN. Does it show from whom it was received?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. And underneath the "Crescent Firearms," what does it say?

Mr. SCIBOR. Italian Carcano T38, 6.5 Italian caliber rifle.

Mr. BELIN. Now, there are some notations in the upper righthand corner, what does that have reference to?

Mr. SCIBOR. Those are notations strictly for the receiving department. I have the men back there keep these in rotation so that I can always fill--in the same rotation as they come out of.

Mr. BELIN. And did you do any of that writing at all?

Mr. SCIBOR. No.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not these serial numbers are assigned by people under your supervision?

Mr. SCIBOR. Repeat that.

Mr. BELIN. Well, do you have any supervision or control over the people making the entries on the serial numbers and your control numbers?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I don't believe we went into your background, general background. You might state where you were born and what educational background you have, for the record.

Mr. SCIBOR. I was born in Chicago, November 27, 1920. I finished 4 years of high school, 6 1/2 years in the Marine Corps, and Klein's Sporting Goods.

Mr. BELIN. You're married?

Mr. SCIBOR. I have been with Klein's for 18 years.

Mr. BELIN. You have been with Klein's for 18----

Mr. SCIBOR. Approximately 18 years.

Mr. BELIN. And you're married?

Mr. SCIBOR. Married and two children.

Mr. BELIN. Where is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 filed customarily?

Mr. SCIBOR. That is filed in a ,desk drawer back in the receiving department, which I designated that those should be filed.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any master control ledger or book of any kind that has these control numbers on them?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes. One copy is sent to what we call the booking department, and those are put into a master book, control book.

Mr. BELIN. Are you required by law to keep records of serial numbers of guns?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And do you find on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 your control number for a rifle with the serial number C-2766?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is your control number?

Mr. SCIBOR. VC-836.

Mr. BELIN. How are these serial numbers obtained for placement on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4?

Mr. SCIBOR. Directly off the guns.

Mr. BELIN. Does someone actually look at the gun?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; someone looks; visually they are taken off the guns.

371

KLEINíS SCIBOR Volume VII

Mitchell J. Scibor

Page 370

TESTIMONY OF MITCHELL J. SCIBOR

The testimony of Mitchell J. Scibor was taken on May, 20, 1964, at 4540 West Madison Street, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mitchell J. Scibor, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name for the record?

Mr. SCIBOR. Mitchell J. Scibor.

Mr. BELIN. And where do you live?

Mr. SCIBOR. 2942 North Sayre Avenue, Chicago, Ill.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. SCIBOR. Employed by Klein's Sporting Goods.

Mr. BELIN. In what capacity?

Mr. SCIBOR. General operating manager.

Mr. BELIN. Were you so employed on or about November 22, 1963?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you at any time on that date contacted by any law enforcement agency with regard to a particular rifle, Serial No. C-2766?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And could you tell us the circumstances surrounding this?

Mr. SCIBOR. I got a call Friday evening, November 22, asking if it would be possible to get at the records---at our records to see if that gun had been in our possession or sold by us. I got permission from one of the executives to open the store and view our records, and I came down here somewhere between 10 and 11 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. And what did you do when you got down here?

Mr. SCIBOR. We went in with the Government men and--just before we went in, Mr. Waldman came down and we came in and he took over as far as getting-- trying to find the information that we needed.

Mr. BELIN. How did you try to find that information?

Mr. SCIBOR. By looking in our microfilm records of sales of merchandise for that particular gun.

The FBI furnished us with information stating that we had received the gun from Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. Well, did you look at the microfilms of your purchasers or your sales or what?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; we used two machines and looked at the microfilms of our sales until we had found that particular gun with the serial number.

Mr. BELIN. You were upstairs when Mr. Waldman was looking at the microfilm of which a printed copy is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7; is that correct?

Mr. SCIBOR. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. And on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7, there is a Serial No C-2766?

Mr. SCIBOR. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. Was this serial number on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 the first contact you had on Friday evening that led you to believe that you had shipped this particular rifle?

Mr. SCIBOR. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. When did you discover or find out this information, if you know--strike the question.

I believe you said you got down here about 10 o'clock that night?

Mr. SCIBOR. Between 10 and 11.

Mr. BELIN. And then you started going through your microfilm records?

Mr. SCIBOR. Right.

Mr. BELIN. About when did you actually find the microfilm of which Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 is a print?

Mr. SCIBOR. About 4 o'clock in the roaming, as far as I can remember.

Mr. BELIN. You then turned this information over to the FBI?

Mr. SCIBOR. Mr. Waldman did.

370

 

Page 371

Mr. BELIN. Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; it's a copy of our receiving record which we use to identify firearms or guns by assigning a weapon a particular booking number or control number along with the serial number so at a future date we can identify that particular gun.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 before?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I notice the date and the notations in the upper lefthand corner, RR-1243; underneath that, the date 2-22-63. Do you know what that has reference to?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; the "RR" stands for receiving record No. 1243, and that merchandise was booked or actually received by our receiving-department on 2-22-63.

Mr. BELIN. Does it show from whom it was received?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. And underneath the "Crescent Firearms," what does it say?

Mr. SCIBOR. Italian Carcano T38, 6.5 Italian caliber rifle.

Mr. BELIN. Now, there are some notations in the upper righthand corner, what does that have reference to?

Mr. SCIBOR. Those are notations strictly for the receiving department. I have the men back there keep these in rotation so that I can always fill--in the same rotation as they come out of.

Mr. BELIN. And did you do any of that writing at all?

Mr. SCIBOR. No.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not these serial numbers are assigned by people under your supervision?

Mr. SCIBOR. Repeat that.

Mr. BELIN. Well, do you have any supervision or control over the people making the entries on the serial numbers and your control numbers?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I don't believe we went into your background, general background. You might state where you were born and what educational background you have, for the record.

Mr. SCIBOR. I was born in Chicago, November 27, 1920. I finished 4 years of high school, 6 1/2 years in the Marine Corps, and Klein's Sporting Goods.

Mr. BELIN. You're married?

Mr. SCIBOR. I have been with Klein's for 18 years.

Mr. BELIN. You have been with Klein's for 18----

Mr. SCIBOR. Approximately 18 years.

Mr. BELIN. And you're married?

Mr. SCIBOR. Married and two children.

Mr. BELIN. Where is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 filed customarily?

Mr. SCIBOR. That is filed in a ,desk drawer back in the receiving department, which I designated that those should be filed.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any master control ledger or book of any kind that has these control numbers on them?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes. One copy is sent to what we call the booking department, and those are put into a master book, control book.

Mr. BELIN. Are you required by law to keep records of serial numbers of guns?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And do you find on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 your control number for a rifle with the serial number C-2766?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is your control number?

Mr. SCIBOR. VC-836.

Mr. BELIN. How are these serial numbers obtained for placement on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4?

Mr. SCIBOR. Directly off the guns.

Mr. BELIN. Does someone actually look at the gun?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; someone looks; visually they are taken off the guns.

371

Page 372

Mr. BELIN. We want to thank you very much, sir, for your cooperation in helping obtaining this information.

KLEINíS MICHAELLIS Volume VII

TESTIMONY OF HEINZ W. MICHAELIS

The testimony of Heinz W. Michaelis was taken at 10 a.m., on May 11, 1964, at 1200 North Soto Street, Los Angeles, Calif., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Mr. George A. Rose, President of George Rose & Co., was present.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Heinz W. Michaelis, M-i-c-h-a-e-l-i-s.

Mr. BALL What is your first name?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Heinz, H-e-i-n-z.

Mr. BALL. Heinz Michaelis.

Mr. Michaelis, you received a letter last week from Mr. Rankin, counsel for the Commission, did you not?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That was what date that you received it?

Mr. MICHAELIS. I received it on Thursday.

Mr. BALL That would be----

Mr. MICHAELIS. 11---the 7th.

Mr. BALL. The 7th of May. And you were invited to give your testimony today by way of this deposition, weren't you?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You are willing to do so, are you not?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you understand that the purpose of the inquiry is to inquire into the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy in Dallas on November 22, 1963?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What is your address?

Mr. MICHAELIS. 5227 West Olympic Boulevard.

Mr. BALL. In Los Angeles?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Los Angeles.

Mr. BALL. And your business address?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Pardon me. Correction. 5755 I am sorry.

Mr. BALL. And your business address?

Mr. MICHAELIS. 1200 North Soto, Los Angeles.

Mr. BALL. Have you recently changed your business address?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. From what address?

Mr. MICHAELIS. From 1225 South Grand Avenue.

Mr. BALL. Are you employed, self-employed, or do you work for some company?

Mr. MICHAELIS. I work for the George Rose & Co.

Mr. BALL. What business is the George Rose & Co. engaged in?

Mr. ROSE. You work for Merchanteers.

Mr. MICHAELIS. Oh, pardon me; Merchanteers, Inc.

Mr. BALL. Your immediate employer is Merchanteers, Inc.?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Merchanteers, Inc.

Mr. BALL. Is that associated with the George Rose & Co.?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. In what business is Merchanteers, Inc., engaged?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Merchanteers, Inc. has mail order----

Mr. ROSE. Mail order and management.

Mr. MICHAELIS. And management.

Mr. BALL. And does it do work for George Rose & Co.?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Do I work for George Rose & Co.?

Mr. ROSE. Yes.

372

Page 373

Mr. BALL. Well, Merchanteers, Inc.---it is the mail order agency for George Rose & Co., is it?

Mr. ROSE. No; may I clarify it?

Mr. BALL. Yes; well, I better have him, and then I may ask you to clarify it.

Mr. ROSE. Yes; all right.

Mr. BALL. Tell me what you know of the relationship between George Rose & Co. and Merchanteers?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Well, Merchanteers, Inc. is a mail-order business. But, it is also a management company and makes out the paychecks for employees from the George Rose & Co.

Mr. BALL. I see. Now, what business is George Rose & Co. engaged in?

Mr. MICHAELIS. George Rose & Co. are wholesalers and sell to retail stores.

Mr. BALL. What do they sell?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Musical instruments, cutlery, firearms, watches, clocks, and various others.

Mr. BALL. Does George Rose & Co. engage in any mail-order business?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yeah; we get mail orders, too.

Mr. BALL. You take mail orders as George Rose & Co.?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. ROSE. Wholesale.

Mr. BALL. At wholesale?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Wholesale, yeah.

Mr. BALL. Now, there is also a company called Seaport Traders, isn't there?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Seaport Traders is another mail-order business.

Mr. BALL. It is another mail-order business?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. Do you work for them?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Only in a supervisory position.

Mr. BALL. That is the company that you work for, Merchanteers, you say?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Merchanteers; yes.

Mr. BALL. Is it Merchanteers, Inc.?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Merchanteers, Inc.; yes.

Mr. BALL. They manage the business of Seaport Traders?

Mr. MICHAELIS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. Now, last fall did the Federal Bureau of Investigation visit your place of business and inquire as to the sale of a certain Smith & Wesson revolver?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. About what date?

Mr. MICHAELIS. I believe it was November the 30th, a Saturday.

Mr. BALL. And in searching your records for any such sale, to what particular record did you first look?

Mr. MICHAELIS. We started first, after having received the serial number, through our serial number book for this particular type of gun.

Mr. BALL. Now, what serial number did the FBI give you?

Mr. MICHAELIS. V, as in victory, 510210-65248.

Mr. BALL. Now, those two numbers signify what?

Mr. MICHAELIS. The first number, V510210, is commonly described as the butt number, while the second number, 65248, usually is described as the crane number.

Mr. BALL. Now, the serial numbers are stamped where on the gun?

Mr. MICHAELIS. As mentioned before, the first number is on the butt of the gun.

Mr. BALL. I see.

Mr. MICHAELIS. And also it appears on the lower part of the barrel.

Furthermore, it appears also on the outside rim of the cylinder of the gun. In other words, the first number, 510210, appears three times on the gun.

Mr. BALL. And that is usually known as the serial number of the gun; is that right?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. But, we are---it is required that since Smith & Wesson revolvers carry two kinds of serial numbers, also to list the so-called crane number.

Mr. BALL. Is that also known as the assembly number, the crane number?

373

Page 374

Mr. MICHAELIS. I am not familiar with the word assembly number, but it might be possible.

Mr. BALL. What is the meaning of the word crane?

Mr. MICHAELIS. The crane is when you flip off the cylinder, inside is a crane and there is a number on the stem, which is the second number.

Mr. BALL. Do you maintain a record of all sales of guns in a book?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; in this book here.

Mr. BALL. You have the book before you, do you not?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That is a black, looseleaf notebook; looseleaf notebook with a black cover. Is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. And you keep that in handwriting, or by typewriting?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Handwriting.

Mr. BALL. Do you keep a typewritten or handwritten record?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Handwritten.

Mr. BALL. When the agent from the Federal Bureau of Investigation called on you on Saturday, November 30, 1963, you looked to your book that carries a record in handwriting of your sales?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And did you find this record of this particular gun?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I hand you here a document which is identified as FBI Laboratory No. D-191, being a photostat. Do you recognize this?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Will you compare that with the page in your notebook?

Mr. MICHAELIS. It is the same.

Mr. BALL. And that is identified in your notebook as Case No. 3?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Case No. 3.

Mr. BALL. What is the significance of the words "Case No. 3"?

Mr. MICHAELIS. It is a listing of a case which we received.

Mr. BALL. Of a case, a particular case, of guns; is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. It also has a 99 enclosed in a circle. What is the significance of that?

Mr. MICHAELIS. I presume that is the contents, the piece contents of the case.

Mr. BALL. You found, therefore, a record in your notebook, and that would indicate what? That you had sold the gun at some time?

Mr. MICHAELIS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. Now, I would like to offer and have marked this photostat of a page of the looseleaf notebook, which is identified as Case No. 3, as Exhibit No. 1 to this deposition of Mr. Michaelis.

(Whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the Michaelis deposition as Commission Exhibit No. 1 for identification by the notary public.)

Mr. BALL. Now, from that looseleaf notebook were you able to determine from what source you bought the gun?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me now where you bought the gun and when?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And from whom?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Excuse me.

Mr. BALL. Now, you have before you now a file?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And does it refer to this particular purchase of 99 guns?

Mr. MICHAELIS. No. We bought altogether 500 guns.

Mr. BALL. 500? And what is the file, the title, that you are now showing?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Empire Wholesale.

Mr. BALL. All right. Now, tell me what you found as to the source of this gun; where you bought it and from whom.

Mr. MICHAELIS. We bought it from Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, Ltd., 360 Craig Street West, Montreal 1, Quebec.

374

Page 375

Mr. BALL. And what date did you buy it?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Invoice No. 1181 dated October 13, 1962.

Mr. BALL. And it was shipped to you by the Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, Ltd., on what date?

Mr. MICHAELIS. It went---it was on 10/19/62, in St. Albans, Vt., and from then on it was directed to our place of business, which was at that time 1225 South Grand Avenue. However, the merchandise in question did not arrive before January 3, 1963.

Mr. BALL. Is that the date it did arrive?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. It was received January 3, 1963.

Mr. BALL. Off the record.

(Discussion held off the record.)

Mr. BALL. Now, when this gun was first received, what was the length of its barrel?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Five inches.

Mr. BALL. And was it changed?

Mr. MICHAELIS. It was changed.

Mr. BALL. To what?

Mr. MICHAELIS. To a 2 1/4-inch barrel.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to do that?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Well, we gave the guns out to Mr. L. M. Johnson and instructed him to make up the guns as far as barrel lengths are concerned to our specifications.

Mr. BALL. Why did you shorten them from 5 to 2 1/4 inches? Explain to me for the record.

Mr. MICHAELIS. Because we have quite frequently calls for the Smith & Wesson revolvers with shorter barrels such as 2 1/4 inch or 4 inch.

Mr. BALL. Did you shorten all of the consignment that you received?

Mr. MICHAELIS. No.

Mr. BALL. Just a certain number?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, this particular gun was shortened, then, from 5 to 2 1/4?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Johnson's number--and is that M. L. Johnson?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; just a minute. Or L. M. It is M. L.

Mr. BALL. And what is his address?

Mr. MICHAELIS. At that time, 13440 Burbank Boulevard, Van Nuys, Calif.

Mr. BALL. Now, that gun was sold, was it not, pursuant to a mail order?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; mail order.

Mr. BALL. I hand you a document which has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 135. Will you examine that and tell me whether or not you ever saw that before?

Mr. MICHAELIS. I saw it the first time on November the 30th.

Mr. BALL. The first time?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And where did you find that? Where was it when you saw it on November 30?

Mr. MICHAELIS. It was attached to our invoice No. 5371, in the records, the red copy.

Mr. BALL. Now, this particular mail order, did you have anything to do with filling that order?

Mr. MICHAELIS. No.

Mr. BALL. What is your position here? Do you have charge of the office?

Mr. MICHAELIS. I am manager.

Mr. BALL. You are manager of the office?

Mr. MICHAELIS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. And all of these records are under your control, are they?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Well, not particularly at that time because my actual supervision of the Seaport Traders, Inc., activities started later during the year. mean in September and October, when the girl in charge left.

Mr. BALL. At least in November you were in charge and in possession of all of the records of the Seaport Traders?

375

Page 376

Mr. MICHAELIS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. You have no personal knowledge, then, of the transaction by which the gun was shipped and sold?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Not prior to the first investigation.

Mr. BALL. But you are providing me with records which were under your control as of November 1963?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; correct.

Mr. BALL. Now, can you tell me who would have actually received the mail order through the mail and who would have filled the order and shipped it? Do you know what person would have done this?

Mr. MICHAELIS. There are various operations. The order was received by----

Mr. ROSE. I probably would have opened it.

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; Mr. Rose usually opens the mail and distributes the mail. This particular order would have gone to the person in charge at that time of the Seaport Traders, who was Emma Vaughn.

Mr. BALL. Who?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Emma Vaughn, V-a-u-g-h-n.

Mr. BALL. Then what would have happened?

Mr. MICHAELIS. She would have processed the order in writing up invoice No. 5371. After 1 week she gave out the order to the order filler and packer.

Mr. BALL. What is the name?

Mr. MICHAELIS. This is a title, order filler and packer. She is one person.

Mr. BALL. What is that last word?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Packer.

Mr. BALL. Packer. I see.

Mr. MICHAELIS. And the order was shipped on March the 20th, 1963.

Mr. BALL. You have been testifying from a record which you have before you?

Mr. MICHAELIS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. And that is a paper which has been marked for identification by the Federal Bureau of Investigation DL-28, Seaport Traders, Inc., No. A-5371. Is that correct? You have been testifying from information contained on that?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. That was in your records, was it, as of November 30, 1963?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; it was.

Mr. BALL. Will you tell me, describe that document and tell me its significance in your business?

Mr. MICHAELIS. This particular document is, after the order is processed, filed in our records under the name of the respective customer.

Mr. BALL. You mean after the revolver that was ordered by this mail order coupon, 135, has been packed and shipped, this invoice A-5371, is filed as a permanent record, is it, of the shipment?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct; filed under the name of the respective customer.

Mr. BALL. Now, this shows the words A. J. Hidell, P.O. Box 2915, Dallas, Tex. This appears on this invoice A-5371, does it not?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. It is described as an S. & W. .38 special, 2-inch Commando. What is the meaning of that?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Two inch is the barrel length. Commando is a description which we more or less gave because we have another 2-inch gun at a higher price and, in order that the order filler is able to identify between the two types, we have this type described as Commando.

Mr. BALL. Now, the No. 510210. What is the significance of that number?

Mr. MICHAELIS. It is the serial number of the gun in question

Mr. BALL. And it shows deposit, $10. Balance c.o.d., $19.95. What is the significance of that?

Mr. MICHAELIS. We received, together with the order, the amount of $10 in cash. Since the sales price is $29.95, the merchandise was shipped with a c.o.d for the balance of $19.95.

Mr. BALL. Does this invoice show the date it was shipped?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What was that?

376

 

Page 377

Mr. MICHAELIS. March 20.

Mr. BALL. 1963?

Mr. MICHAELIS. 1963.

Mr. BALL. Does it also show which one of your companies shipped it?

Mr. MICHAELIS. The Seaport Traders, Inc.

Mr. BALL. I would like to have this document marked, Invoice No. A-5371, as the Exhibit No. 2 to the deposition of Mr. Michaelis.

(Whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the Michaelis deposition as Commission Exhibit No. 2 for identification by the notary public.)

Mr. BALL. Now I also show you a white copy of invoice No. A-5371 which has been marked on the face as DL-27. Can you tell me what that document is?

Mr. MICHAELIS. This document is the first copy of the invoice No. 5371 which is kept in the office as permanent record and is filed in the numerical order.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me what your business custom was in March of 1963 with reference to the preparing of invoices, original invoice and copies, and shipping an item which had been ordered by mail?

Mr. MICHAELIS. The order received by mail is written up and invoiced in quadruplicate on a snap-out form. The first white copy remains in the office and is filed on a numerical order.

The second copy is used as a packing slip whereby the upper part of the invoice is torn off and used as a shipping label and the lower part used as a packing slip.

The third copy is filed permanently in the office under the name of the respective customer after the order has been shipped.

The fourth copy is the acknowledgment of the order copy and lists on the back side a statement which has to be signed by the respective customer.

Mr. BALL. What statement?

Mr. MICHAELIS. A statement to the effect, I believe that it said that the buyer states that he is a citizen of the United States, and that he has never been convicted in any court of the United States, territories, possessions, et cetera. Do you want me----

Mr. BALL. Well, now, this fourth copy that has on the back this statement by the customer, is that mailed to the customer?

Mr. MICHAELIS. It is mailed to the customer, but not .in this particular case. Indicated on the invoice are three X's, which indicates that we have already a statement to this effect on file because this particular mail order coupon has already the statement, and the name of the witness.

Mr. BALL. Now, the particular mail-order coupon that you refer to is Commission No. 135, and it has on it the statement required together with the witness?

Mr. MICHAELIS. With the witness; that's right.

Mr. BALL. And that witness' name is what?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Well, I identify it as D-r-i-t-t-a-l.

Mr. BALL. That's right. You are right.

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Then in this instance the fourth copy did not go to the purchaser?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Did not go to the purchaser; that is correct.

Mr. BALL. And the first copy is in white and is the one which you have identified?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And we will mark that as Exhibit 3.

(Whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the Michaelis deposition as Commission Exhibit No. 3 for identification by the notary public.)

Mr. BALL. The second copy is in red, is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. The second copy is in yellow.

Mr. BALL Yellow. That is the packing slip copy?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. The third copy is in red?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

377

Page 378

Mr. BALL. And that is the one you have identified as Exhibit 2, is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; that's correct.

Mr. BALL. And in this instance the fourth copy was not used, is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. Exhibits 2 and 3 were also found as a part of your original records when you investigated, or looked through your records at the request of the Federal Bureau of Investigation on November 30, 1963. Is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. I will show you another document here which is a slip of red paper marked "Railway Express Agency" which has been heretofore identified with an FBI Exhibit No. DL-29. What is that document?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Just a minute, I have to get the original. Now, this exhibit number-----

Mr. BALL. It is given a No. DL-29. Will you describe it, please?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; that is a copy of the receipt which we got from the Railway Express Agency showing that on March 20, 1963, one carton with a pistol was shipped to A. Hidell, P.O. Box 2915, Dallas, Tex. It shows, furthermore, that Railway Express is instructed to collect a c.o.d. fee of $19.95. And it shows furthermore the number of the original receipt, which is 70638.

Mr. BALL. Number of original receipt? Which receipt?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Of the Railway Express receipt.

Mr. BALL. IS this it here?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Original receipt, Railway Express receipt, is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes

Mr. BALL. Does it identify the invoice in any way?

Mr. MICHAELIS. No.

Mr. BALL. Except by name is that right?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Except by name.

Mr. BALL. And does it describe the article shipped?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Only in broad terms.

Mr. BALL. What?

Mr. MICHAELIS. One carton consisting of a pistol.

Mr. BALL. One carton, pistol. I see. I would like to have this marked as Exhibit 4, being the pink copy of a Railway Express receipt.

(Whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the Michaelis deposition as Commission Exhibit No. 4 for identification by the notary public.)

Mr. BALL. Now, a document identified as No. DL-30 by the Bureau of Investigation, receipt No. 70638. Will you describe that for me, please?

Mr. MICHAELIS. This document is required in addition by the Railway Express Agency for all c.o.d. shipments, and indicates again the name of the consignee, his address, and lists our invoice number which is, in this case, No. 5371. It directs the Railway Express Agency to remit the amount to be collected to Seaport Traders, Inc. The amount of the c.o.d. is $19.95, and the service charge has to be collected from the consignee.

Mr. BALL. I would like to have that marked as Exhibit 5.

(Whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the Michaelis deposition as Commission Exhibit No. 5 for identification by the notary public.)

Mr. BALL. Now, Exhibit 4 has been described as a Railway Express Agency receipt. Exhibit 5, which is an additional document entitled "A brief of information for c.o.d. shipment, Railway Express Agency," those were in your files when you searched for information regarding the sale of this' pistol as of November 30, 1963. Is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. Is there anything in your files which shows that the Railway Express did remit to you the $19.95?

Mr. MICHAELIS. The fact that the exhibit number--may I see this green one?

Mr. BALL. Five.

Mr. MICHAELIS. Was attached to the red copy of the invoice.

378

Page 379

Mr. BALL. Red copy of the invoice being----

Mr. MICHAELIS. No; was attached to the red copy of the invoice, exhibit number----

Mr. BALL. Two.

Mr. MICHAELIS. Indicates that the money was received.

Mr. BALL. I see. Now, these documents were delivered to the Federal Bureau of Investigation by you, were they not?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Through Mr. Wood; yes.

Mr. BALL. And these documents, Exhibits 2 to 5, inclusive, are original documents, are they not?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Exhibit 1 being a photostat of the page in your looseleaf notebook?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. Which carries the record of the sale, record of the item?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. And does anybody in your organization that you know of have any personal knowledge of packing this particular gun and shipping it?

Mr. MICHAELIS. I doubt very much that the packer would remember this particular parcel.

Mr. BALL. About how many guns of this type do you sell and ship out of here in a year?

Mr. MICHAELIS. In I year?

Mr. BALL. Yes; just a general estimate.

Mr. MICHAELIS. For Seaport Traders?

Mr. ROSE. That type of gun--we sell more .22's.

Mr. BALL. Well, about how many?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Seaport Traders, I would say that--this is a rough guess.

Mr. BALL. This particular type, that Seaport Traders might have sold maybe 120 in a year; 120, 150 in a year.

Mr. BALL. Would that be sold through mail order, or both mail order----

Mr. MICHAELIS. I am talking about particularly mail-order business from Seaport Traders.

Mr. BALL. 120 or 125?

Mr. MICHAELIS. 120, 150, Of this particular type of gun.

Mr. BALL. Is there anything else that you know about this particular transaction that you would like to tell me?

Mr. MICHAELIS. No, sir; I believe I answered all the questions of this transaction.

KLEINíS-WALDMAN Volume VII

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM J. WALDMAN

The testimony of William J. Waldman was taken on May 20, 1964, at 4540 West Madison Street, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

William J. Waldman, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your full name?

Mr. WALDMAN. William J. Waldman.

Mr. BELIN. And where do you live, Mr. Waldman?

Mr. WALDMAN. 335 Central Avenue, Wilmette, Ill.

Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Chicago?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's a suburb of Chicago.

360

Page 361

Mr. BELIN. And what is your occupation?

Mr. WALDMAN. Vice president of Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with Klein's?

Mr. WALDMAN. Approximately 12 years.

Mr. BELIN. And in your capacity as vice president, what are your general areas of work?

Mr. WALDMAN. Supervising office, warehouse, and retail operations, participating in the merchandising and advertising.

Mr. BELIN. What kinds of products does Klein's sell?

Mr. WALDMAN. Sporting goods in the majority, with some few specialty items which appeal to the male consumer.

Mr. BELIN. Would these include goods such as fishing items or hunting items?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not included in the products handled by Klein's are rifles?

Mr. WALDMAN. Would you restate the question?

Mr. BELIN. Does Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., handle rifles in their line of sporting goods?

Mr. WALDMAN. They do.

Mr. BELIN. For the record, we would like to have a little bit more of your overall background. Were you originally born in Chicago?

Mr. WALDMAN. No; I was born in Sedalia, Mo., November 16, 1912. Education: I don't know just what you're after.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you went through high school?

Mr. WALDMAN. I completed high school, attended Carnegie Institute of Technology, New York University. I don't know the nature of how far you want this developed.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you had some college work then?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And after you got out of college, what did you do?

Mr. WALDMAN. I got out of college and I was employed by Sears and Roebuck, Spiegel's, Inc., and various other employment, served in the U.S. Army, Air Corps branch.

Mr. BELIN. This is during World War II?

Mr. WALDMAN. During World War II. Following which I was employed for a brief period in a family business, and subsequently by Klein's Sporting Goods.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, I hand you what is being marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit I and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Could you please tell us what that statement constitutes?

Mr. WALDMAN. This constitutes a purchase order of Klein's directed to Crescent Firearms Co. for Italian Carcano rifles prepared on January 2, 19--, oh, wait a minute; hold that a moment, January 24, 1963, calling for 200 units at a cost of $8.50.

Mr. BELIN. Now----

Mr. WALDMAN. I haven't finished.

Mr. BELIN. Let me just ask you this preliminary question: This is a photostatic copy of a document, is it not?

Mr. WALDMAN. It is.

Mr. BELIN. And is the original copy, or was the original copy prepared by someone under your direction or supervision?

Mr. WALDMAN. The original was prepared under a system which I originated and this particular order was not prepared at my direction. It would be--the merchandise was ordered in a routine basis at a time in which it was needed, and----

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who the person is that filled out this order?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; his initials are so indicated as "M.W."

Mr. BELIN. Would that be the name at the lower lefthand corner of Exhibit 1?

Mr. WALDMAN. It is.

Mr. BELIN. And that is who?

Mr. WALDMAN. Mitchell W. Westra.

361

Page 362

Mr. BELIN. At that time was he an employee of your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. He was.

Mr. BELIN. Was he under your jurisdiction and supervision?

Mr. WALDMAN. He was not under my direct supervision, no. He was under the supervision of Sam Kasper.

Mr. BELIN. And where is Sam Kasper now?

Mr. WALDMAN. He may or may not be here.

Mr. BELIN. I don't mean this afternoon. Is he with the company?

Mr. WALDMAN. He is the vice president of our company.

Mr. BELIN. He is the other vice president of the company?

Mr. WALDMAN. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you started to go into the detail of what Deposition Exhibit I constituted. I just wonder if you will pick up where you left off here.

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; on the same form we show a record of the receipt of the rifles in question, specifically this extreme right-hand column which is filled in, indicating that on February 22, delivery was made to us by Lifschultz Trucking Co. I might explain the difference in the two dates here.

Mr. BELIN. Go ahead.

Mr. WALDMAN. The February 21 date is the date in which the merchandise came to our premises whereas the date of February 22, is the date in which they were officially received by our receiving department.

Mr. BELIN. Your receiving department checks each order to see that the physical contents match the stated shipment on the invoice; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. They don't necessarily see that they match because they frequently do not match, but they determine actually how much was received by us.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I notice on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. I a date well, I might read everything under the column of description; it says Italian Mannlicher-Carcano, Model 91TS, bolt action 6-shot rifle; and then cal.--that's for caliber--6.5, and then there is an "X" and 52 mm Italian-select, clean, and test-fired, changed to Beretta Terni M19, then a slash line 38 EFF, and then the date of 4/16/62. Explain that date and that description.

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; this general style of rifle was made by a number of different manufacturers over a period of time and there were minor modifications made by---developed by each of the manufacturers.

Mr. BELIN. Would this be similar to a number of manufacturers making the Springfield rifle in this country?

Mr. WALDMAN. As for example, the different manufacturers making the Springfield rifle. Basically, the weapons were of the same general design, but as I say, there were details that were different.

We originally had ordered one style of Carcano rifle, one that was known as the Model 91TS. As time went on, we changed to another model known as the Model 91/38EFF, this on April 13, 1962.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I also note on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, under the item number--some letters here or numbers----

Mr. WALDMAN. C20-T749.

Mr. BELIN. What does that signify?

Mr. WALDMAN. This is an identification number assigned by us for internal operating purposes.

Mr. BELIN. Would this be something akin to a catalog number?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Off the record now. Can I speak without being----

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

(Whereupon, discussion was had off the record.)

Mr. BELIN. On the record.

Now, Mr. Waldman, you just requested to go off the record and told me that this is, the number that you read is not necessarily the only number that is assigned to one of these model rifles. Do you ever have any other numbers assigned to them?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What would be the occasion for assigning a different number?

Mr. WALDMAN. When the rifle is offered and sold together with a scope and

362

Page 363

mount, we assign a different catalog number which describes the rifle, the scope and the mount.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever sell any of these particular rifles with scopes and mounts?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were these scopes and mounts purchased from the same source as the rifle itself?

Mr. WALDMAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, does the date April 13, 1962, have anything to do with the time with which you received orders from customers of Klein's for any of these rifles?

Mr. WALDMAN. That date has no reference to our activity with consumers as such. It only indicates in our buying of these rifles we changed from one model to another, both models being very similar.

Mr. BELIN. Both being the Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 caliber rifle?

Mr. WALDMAN. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit 2 and ask you to state if you know what that is.

Mr. WALDMAN. I do.

Mr. BELIN. What is it?

Mr. WALDMAN. This is a delivery receipt from the Lifschultz Fast Freight covering 10 cases of guns delivered to Klein's on February 21, 1963, from Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. I note that there is some handwriting on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 2 that says, "Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., J. A. Mueller, 2--21-63." Would that be one of your employees at that time?

Mr. WALDMAN. He was. Mr. Mueller was in charge of our receiving department at that time.

Mr. BELIN. And do you know how many guns or rifles would have been packed in each carton or case?

Mr. WALDMAN. Referring to the various delivery receipts, copies of which we have, these are packing slips, incidentally, not receipts; these were packing receipts included in each case. It was indicated there were 10 rifles in each case.

Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; these are memos prepared by Crescent Firearms showing serial numbers of rifles that were shipped to us and each one of these represents those rifles that were contained in a case.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you earlier mentioned that these were packed with the case.

Mr. WALDMAN. Well, I would like to correct that. This particular company does not include these with the cases, but sends these memos separately with their invoice.

Mr. BELIN. Now, again, Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 is a photostatic copy. Do you have the actual copies that came to you in front of you at this time?

Mr. WALDMAN. I do.

Mr. BELIN. And is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 an accurate photostat of these other copies?

Mr. WALDMAN. It is.

Mr. BELIN. I notice that there are numbers on each of these papers with 10 serial numbers each. I see here No. 3672, 3504 on the first photostat of Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3. Do you see that?

Mr. WALDMAN. I do.

Mr. BELIN. I'm going to ask you to search through these 10 photostats and see if you find any invoice number that has on it a serial number, C-2766.

Mr. WALDMAN. Crescent Firearms delivery memo No. 3620 covering carton or case No. 3376 does have a--indicate a rifle bearing serial No. 2766.

Mr. BELIN. Well, is it 2766 or is there a prefix to it?

Mr. WALDMAN. There is a prefix, C-2766.

Mr. BELIN. And you see that as also a part of Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3; I believe you are reading from the actual document in your possession

363

Page 364

which Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 is a photostat of; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. When a shipment of rifles is received, what is your procedure with regard to record keeping on the serial numbers of the rifles?

Mr. WALDMAN. We assign to each rifle a control number which is a number used by us to record the history of the gun while it is in our possession and until it is sold, thus each rifle will be tagged with both this control number and with the serial number of the rifle which is stamped on the--imprinted on the gun by the manufacturer.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have the same--does the same manufacturer give different serial numbers for each weapon that the manufacturer makes?

Mr. WALDMAN. The gun manufacturers imprint a different number on each gun. It's stamped into the frame of the gun and serves as a unique identification for each gun.

Mr. BELIN. Well, I hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is the record created by us showing the control number we have assigned to the gun together with the serial number that is imprinted in the frame of the gun.

Mr. BELIN. Now, this is a photostat, I believe, of records you have in front of you on your desk right now?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Do you find anywhere on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 the serial number C--2766?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And what is your control number for that?

Mr. WALDMAN. Our control number for that is VC-836.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 5 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is an invoice rendered us by Crescent Firearms on their date February 7, 1963, for one hundred each 6.5 Italian rifles.

Mr. BELIN. Is there, anything on that invoice that shows how the rifles were shipped to you?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's indicated as having been shipped by the North Penn Transfer-Lifschultz and that there were 10 cases or cartons.

Mr. BELIN. Does it show whether or not this invoice was paid?

Mr. WALDMAN. It shows that payment was made on March 4, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, were you ever contacted by any law enforcement agency about the disposition of this Mannlicher-Carcano rifle that had the serial number C-2766 on it?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; on the night of November 22, 1963, the FBI contacted our company in an effort to determine whether the gun had been in our possession and, if so, what disposition we had made of it.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know how the FBI happened to contact you or your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. The FBI had a record of a gun of this type and with this serial number having been shipped to us by Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. Do you mean that Crescent Firearms gave the FBI this information?

Mr. WALDMAN. Well, I--I must assume that's the case. I don't know it for a fact.

Mr. BELIN. All right. What did you and your company do when you were contacted by the FBI?

Mr. WALDMAN. We met with the FBI in our offices.

Mr. BELIN. Was this on Friday evening, November 22?

Mr. WALDMAN. On Friday evening, November 22.

Mr. BELIN. Did the FBI indicate at what time, what period that they felt you might have received this rifle originally?

Mr. WALDMAN. We were able to determine from our purchase records the date in which the rifle had been received, and they also had a record of when it had

364

Page 365

been shipped, so we knew the approximate date of receipt by us, and from that we made---let's see, we examined our microfilm records which show orders from mail order customers and related papers, and from this determined to whom the gun had been shipped by us.

Mr. BELIN. Are these microfilm records part of your customary recording of transactions of your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; they are.

Mr. BELIN. I'm handing you what has been marked as an FBI Exhibit D-77 and ask you if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is a microfilm record that---of mail order transactions for a given period of time. It was turned over by us to the FBI.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know when it was turned over to the FBI?

Mr. WALDMAN. It was turned over to them on November 23, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you are reading from the carton containing that microfilm. Do you know whose initials are on there?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the initials on here are mine and they were put on the date on which this was turned over to the FBI concerned with the investigation.

Mr. BELIN. You have on your premises a machine for looking at the microfilm prints?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And you can make copies of the microfilm prints?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if we can adjourn the deposition upstairs to take a look at these records in the microfilm and get copies of the appropriate records that you found on the evening of November 22.

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the microfilm machine.)

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, you have just put the microfilm which we call D-77 into your viewer which is marked a Microfilm Reader-Printer, and you have identified this as No. 270502, according to your records. Is this just a record number of yours on this particular shipment?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's a number which we assign for identification purposes.

Mr. BELIN. And on the microfilm record, would you please state who it shows this particular rifle was shipped

Mr. WALDMAN. Shipped to a Mr. A.--last name H-i-d-e-l-l, Post Office Box 2915, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. And does it show arts' serial number or control number?

Mr. WALDMAN. It shows shipment of a rifle bearing our control number VC-836 and serial number C-2766.

Mr. BELIN. Is there a price shown for that?

Mr. WALDMAN. Price is $19.95, plus $1.50 postage and handling, or a total of $21.45.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I see another number off to the left. What is this number?

Mr. WALDMAN. The number that you referred to, C20-T750 is a catalog number.

Mr. BELIN. And after that, there appears some words of identification or description. Can you state what that is?

Mr. WALDMAN. The number designates an item which we sell, namely, an Italian carbine, 6.5 caliber rifle with the 4X scope.

Mr. BELIN. Is there a date of shipment which appears on this microfilm record?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the date of shipment was March 20, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. Does it show by what means it was shipped?

Mr. WALDMAN. It was shipped by parcel post as indicated by this circle around the letters "PP."

Mr. BELIN. Does it show if any amount was enclosed with the order itself?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the amount that was enclosed with the order was $21.45, as designated on the right-hand side of this order blank here.

Mr. BELIN. Opposite the words "total amount enclosed"?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

365

Page 366

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything which indicates in what form you received the money?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; below the amount is shown the letters "MO" designating money order.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I see the extreme top of this microfilm, the date, March 13, 1963; to what does that refer?

Mr. WALDMAN. This is an imprint made by our cash register indicating that the remittance received from the customer was passed through our register on that date.

Mr. BELIN. And to the right of that, I see $21.45. Is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any other record that you have in connection with the shipment of this rifle other than the particular microfilm negative frame that we are looking at right now?

Mr. WALDMAN. We have a--this microfilm record of a coupon clipped from a portion of one of our advertisements, which indicates by writing of the customer on the coupon that he ordered our catalog No. C20-T750; and he has shown the price of the item, $19.95, and gives as his name A. Hidell, and his address as Post Office Box 2915, in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else on that negative microfilm frame?

Mr. WALDMAN. The coupon overlays the envelope in which the order was mailed and this shows in the upper left-hand corner .the return address of A. Hidell, Post Office Box 2915, in Dallas, Tex.

There is a postmark of Dallas, Tex., and a postdate of March 12, 1963, indicating that the order was mailed by airmail.

Mr. BELIN. Can you see the actual cancelled stamp in the upper right-hand corner?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And the stamp itself says "United States Airmail"?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And underneath that, someone has written "airmail"; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's true.

Mr. BELIN. And someone has written it addressed to you; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. And is it possible on this machine to make prints of these negatives?

(Whereupon, it was attempted to make copies of said documents.)

Mr. BELIN. I think the record should show that all of this testimony has been taken upstairs with the court reporter present in front of the actual microfilm machine itself; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, let us adjourn to your office and continue the taking of this testimony, please.

(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the office where the deposition originally commenced)

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, I'm going to mark what has FBI Exhibit D-77 on it as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 6, being the container with your initials and the microfilm record itself, which you placed on the microfilm reader and about which you have just testified upstairs.

Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is a cops made from our microfilm reader-printer of Dallas, Tex. I want to clarify that this is not the order, itself, received from Mr. Hidell, but it's a form created by us internally from an order received from Mr. Hidell on a small coupon taken from an advertisement of ours in a magazine.

Mr. BELIN. This Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 is a print from the micro- film negative which we just viewed upstair; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 8 is also a print from the

366

Page 367

microfilm record we viewed upstairs showing the actual coupon and the envelope in which the coupon was enclosed; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And do you have any general advertising program whereby you advertise in gun magazines?

Mr. WALDMAN. We do.

Mr. BELIN. Can you just give us one or more of the magazines in which this coupon might have been taken?

Mr. WALDMAN. Well, this coupon was specifically taken from American Rifleman Magazine, issue of February 1963. It's identified by the department number which is shown as--now, if I can read this--shown as Department 358 on the coupon.

Mr. BELIN. And that number also appears in the address on the envelope to you, is that correct, or to your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I believe that you said the total amount was $19.95, plus $1.50 for shipping charges, or $21.45; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. The $1.50 is for both shipping charges and handling.

Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 788, which appears to be a U.S. postal money order payable to the order of Klein's Sporting Goods, and marked that it's from a purchaser named A. Hidell, and as the purchaser's street address is Post Office Box No. 2915, and the purchaser's City, Dallas, Tex.; March 12, 1963: and underneath the amount of $21.45, the number 2,202,130,462. And on the reverse side there appears to be an endorsement of a bank.

I wonder if you would read that endorsement, if you would, and examine it, please.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is a stamped endorsement reading "Pay to the order of the First National Bank of Chicago," followed by our account No. 50 space 91144, and that, in turn, followed by "Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc."

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not that is your company's endorsement on that money order?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's identical to our endorsement.

Mr. BELIN. And I hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 9 and ask you if you can state what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is our endorsement stamp which reads the same as that shown on the money order in question.

Mr. BELIN. You have just now stamped Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 9 with your endorsement stamp?

Mr. WALDMAN. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any way of knowing when exactly this money order was deposited by your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. I cannot specifically say when this money order was deposited by our company; however, as previously stated, a money order for $21.45 passed through our cash register on March 13, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. You're reading from Waldman---

Mr. WALDMAN. From a Mr. A. Hidell of Post Office Box No. 2915, from Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. And you are now reading from Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7?

Mr. WALDMAN. As indicated on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7. Now, we cannot specifically say when this money order was deposited, but on our deposit of March 13, 1963, we show an item of $21.45, as indicated on the Xerox copy of our deposit slip marked, or identified by--as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 10.

Mr. BELIN. And I have just marked as a document what you are reading from, which appears to be a deposit with the First National Bank of Chicago by your company; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And on that deposit, one of the items is $21.45, out of a total deposit that day of $13,827.98; is that correct?

367

Page 368

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when we examined. Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, had a control number of which the last four numbers were T749, and when you shipped the rifle, you had the control number with the last four numbers as T750; otherwise the control number is the same. Could you tell us what accounts for the difference?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; these numbers that you referred to are not control numbers, as previously stated. These are known as catalog numbers. The number C20-T749 describes a rifle only, whereas the catalog No. C20-T750 describes the Italian carbine rifle with a four-power scope, which is sold as a package unit.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what the rifle would have cost without the scope?

Mr. WALDMAN. As I recall, it was either $12.78 or $12.95.

Mr. BELIN. Would the advertisement run in the Rifleman's Magazine of February 1963, have given the purchaser the option to buy with or without the if you remember?

Mr. WALDMAN. Without specific reference to the ad, I would say that it Most usually we did.

Mr. BELIN. And the purchaser would signify his preference in what manner?

Mr. WALDMAN. The customer designates whether he wants the rifle only or whether he wants the rifle with the scope by his selection of catalog numbers.

Mr. BELIN. When this rifle came to your company, was the scope already mounted on it when you got it from Crescent?

Mr. WALDMAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. Who put the scope on the rifle?

Mr. WALDMAN. The scope was mounted on the rifle in our gun ,shop, most probably by a gunsmith named William Sharp.

Mr. BELIN. Would Mr. Sharp drill whatever holes were necessary for the mounting and do the actual mounting then himself?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Would Mr. Sharp or anyone else in your company in any way sight in the sight, whether it would be boresighting or actual firing with the sight?

Mr. WALDMAN. No; it's very unlikely in an inexpensive rifle of this sort that he would do anything other than roughly aline the scope with the rifle.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any records which show where you purchased the scope?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's reasonably certain the scope was purchased from Martin B. Retting, Inc., 1129 Washington Boulevard, Culver City, Calif.

Mr. BELIN. Would it have any identification on the scope itself, if you know?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's most probable it carried the name "Ordnance Optics."

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Waldman, perhaps we'd better further identify the microfilm which show your control numbers. We marked the microfilm as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 6. Do you have any control numbers on this at all which indicate which microfilm this is?

Mr. WALDMAN. This is our film No. 38, which covers our transactions Nos. 269688 through 270596.

Mr. BELIN. And I believe that you already testified to the control number or transaction number that appears on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 as being number what?

Mr. WALDMAN. 270502.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, referring to Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3, which are the serial numbers of the 100 rifles which were made in this shipment from Crescent Firearms to you, and Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 5, which is the invoice from Crescent Firearms which has stamped on it that it was paid by your company on March 4, is there any way to verify that this payment pertained to rifles which are shown on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3?

Mr. WALDMAN. The forms submitted by Crescent Firearms showing serial numbers of rifles included in the shipment covered by their invoice No. 3178 indicate that the rifle carrying serial No. C-2766 was included in that shipment.

Mr. BELIN. Now, those forms----

368

Page 369

Mr. WALDMAN. Those forms are your exhibit captioned Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3. Now, our payment voucher No. 28966 of March 1, 1963, which is your Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 5 shows in the lower portion, second column from the left, the number 3178, which ties in with Crescent Firearms invoice No. 3178.

Mr. BELIN. And you have before you a carbon copy of a check that was written by your company to Crescent Firearms in the amount of $850, and attached to it, the attachment that shows it's for invoice No. 3178?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, do your records show whether or not the rifle was shipped with the scope mounted on it or is there any way that you know whether or not it was?

Mr. WALDMAN. Our catalog No. C20-T750, which was the number indicated on the coupon prepared by A. Hidell, designates a rifle with scope attached. And we would have so shipped it unless the customer specifically specified that he did not wish to have it attached. There is nothing in our records to indicate that there was any request made by the customer, and therefore we would have every reason to believe that it was shipped as a rifle with scope-mounted.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not the rifle would have been broken down in shipment or whether or not it would have been shipped fully assembled?

Mr. WALDMAN. It was customary for us to ship all of these rifles and scopes fully assembled, and I would have no reason to believe that this particular one would have been shipped otherwise.

Mr. BELIN. And do you know in what kind of a container it would have been shipped?

Mr. WALDMAN. It was customary for us to ship these rifles with scopes attached in a corrugated cardboard carton made for us by the Rudd Container Corporation of Chicago.

Mr. BELIN. About how long would that carton be in size, if you know?

Mr. WALDMAN. Approximately 60 inches.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever furnish any samples of this carton or any wrapping paper or tape to the FBI?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; we did furnish a sample of the carton together with the type of sealing tape that was generally used and such craft paper that may have been used for inner cushioning packing.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, when we testified upstairs in front of the microfilm machine, was the microfilm itself more clear or less clear than the photostats or prints that have been made from it?

Mr. WALDMAN. More clear.

Mr. BELIN. So it would be possible to read items on the microfilm itself that might not come out clear on the printed copies?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy appreciates all the cooperation which your company, and in particular you, have given to this situation. And we know that it's not a happy situation to you, and that the gun could have been purchased anywhere. As it happens, this particular gun was purchased with your company, and we want to thank you very much for your cooperation.

Mr. WALDMAN. Thank you.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to see the deposition before you sign it? Mr. Waldman, you have the right to read the deposition and sign it before anything further is done with it, or you can waive the signing of it, whatever you like.

Mr. WALDMAN. It would be well for me to read this because of the possibility of a transposition of numbers or other errors in the recording.

Mr. BELIN. All right. (To reporter.) Perhaps you can keep the original copy here, if you would, and give it to Mr. Waldman and mail the other copies directly to us in Washington, and then could you make whatever corrections there are and send it directly to us in Washington, and I'll give you my name if you would mail it to my attention.

369

 

 

KLEINíS-WALDMAN-SHARP-SCIBOR

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM J. WALDMAN

The testimony of William J. Waldman was taken on May 20, 1964, at 4540 West Madison Street, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

William J. Waldman, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your full name?

Mr. WALDMAN. William J. Waldman.

Mr. BELIN. And where do you live, Mr. Waldman?

Mr. WALDMAN. 335 Central Avenue, Wilmette, Ill.

Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Chicago?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's a suburb of Chicago.

360

Page 361

Mr. BELIN. And what is your occupation?

Mr. WALDMAN. Vice president of Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with Klein's?

Mr. WALDMAN. Approximately 12 years.

Mr. BELIN. And in your capacity as vice president, what are your general areas of work?

Mr. WALDMAN. Supervising office, warehouse, and retail operations, participating in the merchandising and advertising.

Mr. BELIN. What kinds of products does Klein's sell?

Mr. WALDMAN. Sporting goods in the majority, with some few specialty items which appeal to the male consumer.

Mr. BELIN. Would these include goods such as fishing items or hunting items?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not included in the products handled by Klein's are rifles?

Mr. WALDMAN. Would you restate the question?

Mr. BELIN. Does Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., handle rifles in their line of sporting goods?

Mr. WALDMAN. They do.

Mr. BELIN. For the record, we would like to have a little bit more of your overall background. Were you originally born in Chicago?

Mr. WALDMAN. No; I was born in Sedalia, Mo., November 16, 1912. Education: I don't know just what you're after.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you went through high school?

Mr. WALDMAN. I completed high school, attended Carnegie Institute of Technology, New York University. I don't know the nature of how far you want this developed.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you had some college work then?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And after you got out of college, what did you do?

Mr. WALDMAN. I got out of college and I was employed by Sears and Roebuck, Spiegel's, Inc., and various other employment, served in the U.S. Army, Air Corps branch.

Mr. BELIN. This is during World War II?

Mr. WALDMAN. During World War II. Following which I was employed for a brief period in a family business, and subsequently by Klein's Sporting Goods.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, I hand you what is being marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit I and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Could you please tell us what that statement constitutes?

Mr. WALDMAN. This constitutes a purchase order of Klein's directed to Crescent Firearms Co. for Italian Carcano rifles prepared on January 2, 19--, oh, wait a minute; hold that a moment, January 24, 1963, calling for 200 units at a cost of $8.50.

Mr. BELIN. Now----

Mr. WALDMAN. I haven't finished.

Mr. BELIN. Let me just ask you this preliminary question: This is a photostatic copy of a document, is it not?

Mr. WALDMAN. It is.

Mr. BELIN. And is the original copy, or was the original copy prepared by someone under your direction or supervision?

Mr. WALDMAN. The original was prepared under a system which I originated and this particular order was not prepared at my direction. It would be--the merchandise was ordered in a routine basis at a time in which it was needed, and----

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who the person is that filled out this order?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; his initials are so indicated as "M.W."

Mr. BELIN. Would that be the name at the lower lefthand corner of Exhibit 1?

Mr. WALDMAN. It is.

Mr. BELIN. And that is who?

Mr. WALDMAN. Mitchell W. Westra.

361

Page 362

Mr. BELIN. At that time was he an employee of your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. He was.

Mr. BELIN. Was he under your jurisdiction and supervision?

Mr. WALDMAN. He was not under my direct supervision, no. He was under the supervision of Sam Kasper.

Mr. BELIN. And where is Sam Kasper now?

Mr. WALDMAN. He may or may not be here.

Mr. BELIN. I don't mean this afternoon. Is he with the company?

Mr. WALDMAN. He is the vice president of our company.

Mr. BELIN. He is the other vice president of the company?

Mr. WALDMAN. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you started to go into the detail of what Deposition Exhibit I constituted. I just wonder if you will pick up where you left off here.

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; on the same form we show a record of the receipt of the rifles in question, specifically this extreme right-hand column which is filled in, indicating that on February 22, delivery was made to us by Lifschultz Trucking Co. I might explain the difference in the two dates here.

Mr. BELIN. Go ahead.

Mr. WALDMAN. The February 21 date is the date in which the merchandise came to our premises whereas the date of February 22, is the date in which they were officially received by our receiving department.

Mr. BELIN. Your receiving department checks each order to see that the physical contents match the stated shipment on the invoice; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. They don't necessarily see that they match because they frequently do not match, but they determine actually how much was received by us.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I notice on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. I a date well, I might read everything under the column of description; it says Italian Mannlicher-Carcano, Model 91TS, bolt action 6-shot rifle; and then cal.--that's for caliber--6.5, and then there is an "X" and 52 mm Italian-select, clean, and test-fired, changed to Beretta Terni M19, then a slash line 38 EFF, and then the date of 4/16/62. Explain that date and that description.

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; this general style of rifle was made by a number of different manufacturers over a period of time and there were minor modifications made by---developed by each of the manufacturers.

Mr. BELIN. Would this be similar to a number of manufacturers making the Springfield rifle in this country?

Mr. WALDMAN. As for example, the different manufacturers making the Springfield rifle. Basically, the weapons were of the same general design, but as I say, there were details that were different.

We originally had ordered one style of Carcano rifle, one that was known as the Model 91TS. As time went on, we changed to another model known as the Model 91/38EFF, this on April 13, 1962.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I also note on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, under the item number--some letters here or numbers----

Mr. WALDMAN. C20-T749.

Mr. BELIN. What does that signify?

Mr. WALDMAN. This is an identification number assigned by us for internal operating purposes.

Mr. BELIN. Would this be something akin to a catalog number?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Off the record now. Can I speak without being----

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

(Whereupon, discussion was had off the record.)

Mr. BELIN. On the record.

Now, Mr. Waldman, you just requested to go off the record and told me that this is, the number that you read is not necessarily the only number that is assigned to one of these model rifles. Do you ever have any other numbers assigned to them?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What would be the occasion for assigning a different number?

Mr. WALDMAN. When the rifle is offered and sold together with a scope and

362

Page 363

mount, we assign a different catalog number which describes the rifle, the scope and the mount.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever sell any of these particular rifles with scopes and mounts?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were these scopes and mounts purchased from the same source as the rifle itself?

Mr. WALDMAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, does the date April 13, 1962, have anything to do with the time with which you received orders from customers of Klein's for any of these rifles?

Mr. WALDMAN. That date has no reference to our activity with consumers as such. It only indicates in our buying of these rifles we changed from one model to another, both models being very similar.

Mr. BELIN. Both being the Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 caliber rifle?

Mr. WALDMAN. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit 2 and ask you to state if you know what that is.

Mr. WALDMAN. I do.

Mr. BELIN. What is it?

Mr. WALDMAN. This is a delivery receipt from the Lifschultz Fast Freight covering 10 cases of guns delivered to Klein's on February 21, 1963, from Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. I note that there is some handwriting on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 2 that says, "Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., J. A. Mueller, 2--21-63." Would that be one of your employees at that time?

Mr. WALDMAN. He was. Mr. Mueller was in charge of our receiving department at that time.

Mr. BELIN. And do you know how many guns or rifles would have been packed in each carton or case?

Mr. WALDMAN. Referring to the various delivery receipts, copies of which we have, these are packing slips, incidentally, not receipts; these were packing receipts included in each case. It was indicated there were 10 rifles in each case.

Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; these are memos prepared by Crescent Firearms showing serial numbers of rifles that were shipped to us and each one of these represents those rifles that were contained in a case.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you earlier mentioned that these were packed with the case.

Mr. WALDMAN. Well, I would like to correct that. This particular company does not include these with the cases, but sends these memos separately with their invoice.

Mr. BELIN. Now, again, Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 is a photostatic copy. Do you have the actual copies that came to you in front of you at this time?

Mr. WALDMAN. I do.

Mr. BELIN. And is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 an accurate photostat of these other copies?

Mr. WALDMAN. It is.

Mr. BELIN. I notice that there are numbers on each of these papers with 10 serial numbers each. I see here No. 3672, 3504 on the first photostat of Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3. Do you see that?

Mr. WALDMAN. I do.

Mr. BELIN. I'm going to ask you to search through these 10 photostats and see if you find any invoice number that has on it a serial number, C-2766.

Mr. WALDMAN. Crescent Firearms delivery memo No. 3620 covering carton or case No. 3376 does have a--indicate a rifle bearing serial No. 2766.

Mr. BELIN. Well, is it 2766 or is there a prefix to it?

Mr. WALDMAN. There is a prefix, C-2766.

Mr. BELIN. And you see that as also a part of Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3; I believe you are reading from the actual document in your possession

363

Page 364

which Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 is a photostat of; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. When a shipment of rifles is received, what is your procedure with regard to record keeping on the serial numbers of the rifles?

Mr. WALDMAN. We assign to each rifle a control number which is a number used by us to record the history of the gun while it is in our possession and until it is sold, thus each rifle will be tagged with both this control number and with the serial number of the rifle which is stamped on the--imprinted on the gun by the manufacturer.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have the same--does the same manufacturer give different serial numbers for each weapon that the manufacturer makes?

Mr. WALDMAN. The gun manufacturers imprint a different number on each gun. It's stamped into the frame of the gun and serves as a unique identification for each gun.

Mr. BELIN. Well, I hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is the record created by us showing the control number we have assigned to the gun together with the serial number that is imprinted in the frame of the gun.

Mr. BELIN. Now, this is a photostat, I believe, of records you have in front of you on your desk right now?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Do you find anywhere on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 the serial number C--2766?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And what is your control number for that?

Mr. WALDMAN. Our control number for that is VC-836.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 5 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is an invoice rendered us by Crescent Firearms on their date February 7, 1963, for one hundred each 6.5 Italian rifles.

Mr. BELIN. Is there, anything on that invoice that shows how the rifles were shipped to you?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's indicated as having been shipped by the North Penn Transfer-Lifschultz and that there were 10 cases or cartons.

Mr. BELIN. Does it show whether or not this invoice was paid?

Mr. WALDMAN. It shows that payment was made on March 4, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, were you ever contacted by any law enforcement agency about the disposition of this Mannlicher-Carcano rifle that had the serial number C-2766 on it?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; on the night of November 22, 1963, the FBI contacted our company in an effort to determine whether the gun had been in our possession and, if so, what disposition we had made of it.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know how the FBI happened to contact you or your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. The FBI had a record of a gun of this type and with this serial number having been shipped to us by Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. Do you mean that Crescent Firearms gave the FBI this information?

Mr. WALDMAN. Well, I--I must assume that's the case. I don't know it for a fact.

Mr. BELIN. All right. What did you and your company do when you were contacted by the FBI?

Mr. WALDMAN. We met with the FBI in our offices.

Mr. BELIN. Was this on Friday evening, November 22?

Mr. WALDMAN. On Friday evening, November 22.

Mr. BELIN. Did the FBI indicate at what time, what period that they felt you might have received this rifle originally?

Mr. WALDMAN. We were able to determine from our purchase records the date in which the rifle had been received, and they also had a record of when it had

364

Page 365

been shipped, so we knew the approximate date of receipt by us, and from that we made---let's see, we examined our microfilm records which show orders from mail order customers and related papers, and from this determined to whom the gun had been shipped by us.

Mr. BELIN. Are these microfilm records part of your customary recording of transactions of your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; they are.

Mr. BELIN. I'm handing you what has been marked as an FBI Exhibit D-77 and ask you if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is a microfilm record that---of mail order transactions for a given period of time. It was turned over by us to the FBI.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know when it was turned over to the FBI?

Mr. WALDMAN. It was turned over to them on November 23, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you are reading from the carton containing that microfilm. Do you know whose initials are on there?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the initials on here are mine and they were put on the date on which this was turned over to the FBI concerned with the investigation.

Mr. BELIN. You have on your premises a machine for looking at the microfilm prints?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And you can make copies of the microfilm prints?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if we can adjourn the deposition upstairs to take a look at these records in the microfilm and get copies of the appropriate records that you found on the evening of November 22.

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the microfilm machine.)

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, you have just put the microfilm which we call D-77 into your viewer which is marked a Microfilm Reader-Printer, and you have identified this as No. 270502, according to your records. Is this just a record number of yours on this particular shipment?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's a number which we assign for identification purposes.

Mr. BELIN. And on the microfilm record, would you please state who it shows this particular rifle was shipped

Mr. WALDMAN. Shipped to a Mr. A.--last name H-i-d-e-l-l, Post Office Box 2915, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. And does it show arts' serial number or control number?

Mr. WALDMAN. It shows shipment of a rifle bearing our control number VC-836 and serial number C-2766.

Mr. BELIN. Is there a price shown for that?

Mr. WALDMAN. Price is $19.95, plus $1.50 postage and handling, or a total of $21.45.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I see another number off to the left. What is this number?

Mr. WALDMAN. The number that you referred to, C20-T750 is a catalog number.

Mr. BELIN. And after that, there appears some words of identification or description. Can you state what that is?

Mr. WALDMAN. The number designates an item which we sell, namely, an Italian carbine, 6.5 caliber rifle with the 4X scope.

Mr. BELIN. Is there a date of shipment which appears on this microfilm record?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the date of shipment was March 20, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. Does it show by what means it was shipped?

Mr. WALDMAN. It was shipped by parcel post as indicated by this circle around the letters "PP."

Mr. BELIN. Does it show if any amount was enclosed with the order itself?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the amount that was enclosed with the order was $21.45, as designated on the right-hand side of this order blank here.

Mr. BELIN. Opposite the words "total amount enclosed"?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

365

Page 366

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything which indicates in what form you received the money?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; below the amount is shown the letters "MO" designating money order.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I see the extreme top of this microfilm, the date, March 13, 1963; to what does that refer?

Mr. WALDMAN. This is an imprint made by our cash register indicating that the remittance received from the customer was passed through our register on that date.

Mr. BELIN. And to the right of that, I see $21.45. Is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any other record that you have in connection with the shipment of this rifle other than the particular microfilm negative frame that we are looking at right now?

Mr. WALDMAN. We have a--this microfilm record of a coupon clipped from a portion of one of our advertisements, which indicates by writing of the customer on the coupon that he ordered our catalog No. C20-T750; and he has shown the price of the item, $19.95, and gives as his name A. Hidell, and his address as Post Office Box 2915, in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else on that negative microfilm frame?

Mr. WALDMAN. The coupon overlays the envelope in which the order was mailed and this shows in the upper left-hand corner .the return address of A. Hidell, Post Office Box 2915, in Dallas, Tex.

There is a postmark of Dallas, Tex., and a postdate of March 12, 1963, indicating that the order was mailed by airmail.

Mr. BELIN. Can you see the actual cancelled stamp in the upper right-hand corner?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And the stamp itself says "United States Airmail"?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And underneath that, someone has written "airmail"; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's true.

Mr. BELIN. And someone has written it addressed to you; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. And is it possible on this machine to make prints of these negatives?

(Whereupon, it was attempted to make copies of said documents.)

Mr. BELIN. I think the record should show that all of this testimony has been taken upstairs with the court reporter present in front of the actual microfilm machine itself; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, let us adjourn to your office and continue the taking of this testimony, please.

(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the office where the deposition originally commenced)

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, I'm going to mark what has FBI Exhibit D-77 on it as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 6, being the container with your initials and the microfilm record itself, which you placed on the microfilm reader and about which you have just testified upstairs.

Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is a cops made from our microfilm reader-printer of Dallas, Tex. I want to clarify that this is not the order, itself, received from Mr. Hidell, but it's a form created by us internally from an order received from Mr. Hidell on a small coupon taken from an advertisement of ours in a magazine.

Mr. BELIN. This Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 is a print from the micro- film negative which we just viewed upstairs; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 8 is also a print from the

366

Page 367

microfilm record we viewed upstairs showing the actual coupon and the envelope in which the coupon was enclosed; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And do you have any general advertising program whereby you advertise in gun magazines?

Mr. WALDMAN. We do.

Mr. BELIN. Can you just give us one or more of the magazines in which this coupon might have been taken?

Mr. WALDMAN. Well, this coupon was specifically taken from American Rifleman Magazine, issue of February 1963. It's identified by the department number which is shown as--now, if I can read this--shown as Department 358 on the coupon.

Mr. BELIN. And that number also appears in the address on the envelope to you, is that correct, or to your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I believe that you said the total amount was $19.95, plus $1.50 for shipping charges, or $21.45; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. The $1.50 is for both shipping charges and handling.

Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 788, which appears to be a U.S. postal money order payable to the order of Klein's Sporting Goods, and marked that it's from a purchaser named A. Hidell, and as the purchaser's street address is Post Office Box No. 2915, and the purchaser's City, Dallas, Tex.; March 12, 1963: and underneath the amount of $21.45, the number 2,202,130,462. And on the reverse side there appears to be an endorsement of a bank.

I wonder if you would read that endorsement, if you would, and examine it, please.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is a stamped endorsement reading "Pay to the order of the First National Bank of Chicago," followed by our account No. 50 space 91144, and that, in turn, followed by "Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc."

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not that is your company's endorsement on that money order?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's identical to our endorsement.

Mr. BELIN. And I hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 9 and ask you if you can state what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is our endorsement stamp which reads the same as that shown on the money order in question.

Mr. BELIN. You have just now stamped Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 9 with your endorsement stamp?

Mr. WALDMAN. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any way of knowing when exactly this money order was deposited by your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. I cannot specifically say when this money order was deposited by our company; however, as previously stated, a money order for $21.45 passed through our cash register on March 13, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. You're reading from Waldman---

Mr. WALDMAN. From a Mr. A. Hidell of Post Office Box No. 2915, from Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. And you are now reading from Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7?

Mr. WALDMAN. As indicated on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7. Now, we cannot specifically say when this money order was deposited, but on our deposit of March 13, 1963, we show an item of $21.45, as indicated on the Xerox copy of our deposit slip marked, or identified by--as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 10.

Mr. BELIN. And I have just marked as a document what you are reading from, which appears to be a deposit with the First National Bank of Chicago by your company; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And on that deposit, one of the items is $21.45, out of a total deposit that day of $13,827.98; is that correct?

367

Page 368

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when we examined. Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, had a control number of which the last four numbers were T749, and when you shipped the rifle, you had the control number with the last four numbers as T750; otherwise the control number is the same. Could you tell us what accounts for the difference?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; these numbers that you referred to are not control numbers, as previously stated. These are known as catalog numbers. The number C20-T749 describes a rifle only, whereas the catalog No. C20-T750 describes the Italian carbine rifle with a four-power scope, which is sold as a package unit.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what the rifle would have cost without the scope?

Mr. WALDMAN. As I recall, it was either $12.78 or $12.95.

Mr. BELIN. Would the advertisement run in the Rifleman's Magazine of February 1963, have given the purchaser the option to buy with or without the if you remember?

Mr. WALDMAN. Without specific reference to the ad, I would say that it Most usually we did.

Mr. BELIN. And the purchaser would signify his preference in what manner?

Mr. WALDMAN. The customer designates whether he wants the rifle only or whether he wants the rifle with the scope by his selection of catalog numbers.

Mr. BELIN. When this rifle came to your company, was the scope already mounted on it when you got it from Crescent?

Mr. WALDMAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. Who put the scope on the rifle?

Mr. WALDMAN. The scope was mounted on the rifle in our gun ,shop, most probably by a gunsmith named William Sharp.

Mr. BELIN. Would Mr. Sharp drill whatever holes were necessary for the mounting and do the actual mounting then himself?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Would Mr. Sharp or anyone else in your company in any way sight in the sight, whether it would be boresighting or actual firing with the sight?

Mr. WALDMAN. No; it's very unlikely in an inexpensive rifle of this sort that he would do anything other than roughly aline the scope with the rifle.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any records which show where you purchased the scope?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's reasonably certain the scope was purchased from Martin B. Retting, Inc., 1129 Washington Boulevard, Culver City, Calif.

Mr. BELIN. Would it have any identification on the scope itself, if you know?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's most probable it carried the name "Ordnance Optics."

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Waldman, perhaps we'd better further identify the microfilm which show your control numbers. We marked the microfilm as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 6. Do you have any control numbers on this at all which indicate which microfilm this is?

Mr. WALDMAN. This is our film No. 38, which covers our transactions Nos. 269688 through 270596.

Mr. BELIN. And I believe that you already testified to the control number or transaction number that appears on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 as being number what?

Mr. WALDMAN. 270502.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, referring to Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3, which are the serial numbers of the 100 rifles which were made in this shipment from Crescent Firearms to you, and Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 5, which is the invoice from Crescent Firearms which has stamped on it that it was paid by your company on March 4, is there any way to verify that this payment pertained to rifles which are shown on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3?

Mr. WALDMAN. The forms submitted by Crescent Firearms showing serial numbers of rifles included in the shipment covered by their invoice No. 3178 indicate that the rifle carrying serial No. C-2766 was included in that shipment.

Mr. BELIN. Now, those forms----

368

Page 369

Mr. WALDMAN. Those forms are your exhibit captioned Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3. Now, our payment voucher No. 28966 of March 1, 1963, which is your Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 5 shows in the lower portion, second column from the left, the number 3178, which ties in with Crescent Firearms invoice No. 3178.

Mr. BELIN. And you have before you a carbon copy of a check that was written by your company to Crescent Firearms in the amount of $850, and attached to it, the attachment that shows it's for invoice No. 3178?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, do your records show whether or not the rifle was shipped with the scope mounted on it or is there any way that you know whether or not it was?

Mr. WALDMAN. Our catalog No. C20-T750, which was the number indicated on the coupon prepared by A. Hidell, designates a rifle with scope attached. And we would have so shipped it unless the customer specifically specified that he did not wish to have it attached. There is nothing in our records to indicate that there was any request made by the customer, and therefore we would have every reason to believe that it was shipped as a rifle with scope-mounted.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not the rifle would have been broken down in shipment or whether or not it would have been shipped fully assembled?

Mr. WALDMAN. It was customary for us to ship all of these rifles and scopes fully assembled, and I would have no reason to believe that this particular one would have been shipped otherwise.

Mr. BELIN. And do you know in what kind of a container it would have been shipped?

Mr. WALDMAN. It was customary for us to ship these rifles with scopes attached in a corrugated cardboard carton made for us by the Rudd Container Corporation of Chicago.

Mr. BELIN. About how long would that carton be in size, if you know?

Mr. WALDMAN. Approximately 60 inches.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever furnish any samples of this carton or any wrapping paper or tape to the FBI?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; we did furnish a sample of the carton together with the type of sealing tape that was generally used and such craft paper that may have been used for inner cushioning packing.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, when we testified upstairs in front of the microfilm machine, was the microfilm itself more clear or less clear than the photostats or prints that have been made from it?

Mr. WALDMAN. More clear.

Mr. BELIN. So it would be possible to read items on the microfilm itself that might not come out clear on the printed copies?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy appreciates all the cooperation which your company, and in particular you, have given to this situation. And we know that it's not a happy situation to you, and that the gun could have been purchased anywhere. As it happens, this particular gun was purchased with your company, and we want to thank you very much for your cooperation.

Mr. WALDMAN. Thank you.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to see the deposition before you sign it? Mr. Waldman, you have the right to read the deposition and sign it before anything further is done with it, or you can waive the signing of it, whatever you like.

Mr. WALDMAN. It would be well for me to read this because of the possibility of a transposition of numbers or other errors in the recording.

Mr. BELIN. All right. (To reporter.) Perhaps you can keep the original copy here, if you would, and give it to Mr. Waldman and mail the other copies directly to us in Washington, and then could you make whatever corrections there are and send it directly to us in Washington, and I'll give you my name if you would mail it to my attention.

369

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mitchell J. Scibor

Page 370

TESTIMONY OF MITCHELL J. SCIBOR

The testimony of Mitchell J. Scibor was taken on May, 20, 1964, at 4540 West Madison Street, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mitchell J. Scibor, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name for the record?

Mr. SCIBOR. Mitchell J. Scibor.

Mr. BELIN. And where do you live?

Mr. SCIBOR. 2942 North Sayre Avenue, Chicago, Ill.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. SCIBOR. Employed by Klein's Sporting Goods.

Mr. BELIN. In what capacity?

Mr. SCIBOR. General operating manager.

Mr. BELIN. Were you so employed on or about November 22, 1963?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you at any time on that date contacted by any law enforcement agency with regard to a particular rifle, Serial No. C-2766?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And could you tell us the circumstances surrounding this?

Mr. SCIBOR. I got a call Friday evening, November 22, asking if it would be possible to get at the records---at our records to see if that gun had been in our possession or sold by us. I got permission from one of the executives to open the store and view our records, and I came down here somewhere between 10 and 11 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. And what did you do when you got down here?

Mr. SCIBOR. We went in with the Government men and--just before we went in, Mr. Waldman came down and we came in and he took over as far as getting-- trying to find the information that we needed.

Mr. BELIN. How did you try to find that information?

Mr. SCIBOR. By looking in our microfilm records of sales of merchandise for that particular gun.

The FBI furnished us with information stating that we had received the gun from Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. Well, did you look at the microfilms of your purchasers or your sales or what?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; we used two machines and looked at the microfilms of our sales until we had found that particular gun with the serial number.

Mr. BELIN. You were upstairs when Mr. Waldman was looking at the microfilm of which a printed copy is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7; is that correct?

Mr. SCIBOR. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. And on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7, there is a Serial No C-2766?

Mr. SCIBOR. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. Was this serial number on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 the first contact you had on Friday evening that led you to believe that you had shipped this particular rifle?

Mr. SCIBOR. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. When did you discover or find out this information, if you know--strike the question.

I believe you said you got down here about 10 o'clock that night?

Mr. SCIBOR. Between 10 and 11.

Mr. BELIN. And then you started going through your microfilm records?

Mr. SCIBOR. Right.

Mr. BELIN. About when did you actually find the microfilm of which Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 is a print?

Mr. SCIBOR. About 4 o'clock in the roaming, as far as I can remember.

Mr. BELIN. You then turned this information over to the FBI?

Mr. SCIBOR. Mr. Waldman did.

370

 

Page 371

Mr. BELIN. Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; it's a copy of our receiving record which we use to identify firearms or guns by assigning a weapon a particular booking number or control number along with the serial number so at a future date we can identify that particular gun.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 before?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I notice the date and the notations in the upper lefthand corner, RR-1243; underneath that, the date 2-22-63. Do you know what that has reference to?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; the "RR" stands for receiving record No. 1243, and that merchandise was booked or actually received by our receiving-department on 2-22-63.

Mr. BELIN. Does it show from whom it was received?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. And underneath the "Crescent Firearms," what does it say?

Mr. SCIBOR. Italian Carcano T38, 6.5 Italian caliber rifle.

Mr. BELIN. Now, there are some notations in the upper righthand corner, what does that have reference to?

Mr. SCIBOR. Those are notations strictly for the receiving department. I have the men back there keep these in rotation so that I can always fill--in the same rotation as they come out of.

Mr. BELIN. And did you do any of that writing at all?

Mr. SCIBOR. No.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not these serial numbers are assigned by people under your supervision?

Mr. SCIBOR. Repeat that.

Mr. BELIN. Well, do you have any supervision or control over the people making the entries on the serial numbers and your control numbers?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I don't believe we went into your background, general background. You might state where you were born and what educational background you have, for the record.

Mr. SCIBOR. I was born in Chicago, November 27, 1920. I finished 4 years of high school, 6 1/2 years in the Marine Corps, and Klein's Sporting Goods.

Mr. BELIN. You're married?

Mr. SCIBOR. I have been with Klein's for 18 years.

Mr. BELIN. You have been with Klein's for 18----

Mr. SCIBOR. Approximately 18 years.

Mr. BELIN. And you're married?

Mr. SCIBOR. Married and two children.

Mr. BELIN. Where is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 filed customarily?

Mr. SCIBOR. That is filed in a ,desk drawer back in the receiving department, which I designated that those should be filed.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any master control ledger or book of any kind that has these control numbers on them?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes. One copy is sent to what we call the booking department, and those are put into a master book, control book.

Mr. BELIN. Are you required by law to keep records of serial numbers of guns?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And do you find on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 your control number for a rifle with the serial number C-2766?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is your control number?

Mr. SCIBOR. VC-836.

Mr. BELIN. How are these serial numbers obtained for placement on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4?

Mr. SCIBOR. Directly off the guns.

Mr. BELIN. Does someone actually look at the gun?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; someone looks; visually they are taken off the guns.

371

Page 372

Mr. BELIN. We want to thank you very much, sir, for your cooperation in helping obtaining this information.

KLEINíS SCIBOR Volume VII

Mitchell J. Scibor

Page 370

TESTIMONY OF MITCHELL J. SCIBOR

The testimony of Mitchell J. Scibor was taken on May, 20, 1964, at 4540 West Madison Street, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mitchell J. Scibor, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name for the record?

Mr. SCIBOR. Mitchell J. Scibor.

Mr. BELIN. And where do you live?

Mr. SCIBOR. 2942 North Sayre Avenue, Chicago, Ill.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. SCIBOR. Employed by Klein's Sporting Goods.

Mr. BELIN. In what capacity?

Mr. SCIBOR. General operating manager.

Mr. BELIN. Were you so employed on or about November 22, 1963?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you at any time on that date contacted by any law enforcement agency with regard to a particular rifle, Serial No. C-2766?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And could you tell us the circumstances surrounding this?

Mr. SCIBOR. I got a call Friday evening, November 22, asking if it would be possible to get at the records---at our records to see if that gun had been in our possession or sold by us. I got permission from one of the executives to open the store and view our records, and I came down here somewhere between 10 and 11 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. And what did you do when you got down here?

Mr. SCIBOR. We went in with the Government men and--just before we went in, Mr. Waldman came down and we came in and he took over as far as getting-- trying to find the information that we needed.

Mr. BELIN. How did you try to find that information?

Mr. SCIBOR. By looking in our microfilm records of sales of merchandise for that particular gun.

The FBI furnished us with information stating that we had received the gun from Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. Well, did you look at the microfilms of your purchasers or your sales or what?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; we used two machines and looked at the microfilms of our sales until we had found that particular gun with the serial number.

Mr. BELIN. You were upstairs when Mr. Waldman was looking at the microfilm of which a printed copy is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7; is that correct?

Mr. SCIBOR. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. And on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7, there is a Serial No C-2766?

Mr. SCIBOR. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. Was this serial number on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 the first contact you had on Friday evening that led you to believe that you had shipped this particular rifle?

Mr. SCIBOR. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. When did you discover or find out this information, if you know--strike the question.

I believe you said you got down here about 10 o'clock that night?

Mr. SCIBOR. Between 10 and 11.

Mr. BELIN. And then you started going through your microfilm records?

Mr. SCIBOR. Right.

Mr. BELIN. About when did you actually find the microfilm of which Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 is a print?

Mr. SCIBOR. About 4 o'clock in the roaming, as far as I can remember.

Mr. BELIN. You then turned this information over to the FBI?

Mr. SCIBOR. Mr. Waldman did.

370

 

Page 371

Mr. BELIN. Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; it's a copy of our receiving record which we use to identify firearms or guns by assigning a weapon a particular booking number or control number along with the serial number so at a future date we can identify that particular gun.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 before?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I notice the date and the notations in the upper lefthand corner, RR-1243; underneath that, the date 2-22-63. Do you know what that has reference to?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; the "RR" stands for receiving record No. 1243, and that merchandise was booked or actually received by our receiving-department on 2-22-63.

Mr. BELIN. Does it show from whom it was received?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. And underneath the "Crescent Firearms," what does it say?

Mr. SCIBOR. Italian Carcano T38, 6.5 Italian caliber rifle.

Mr. BELIN. Now, there are some notations in the upper righthand corner, what does that have reference to?

Mr. SCIBOR. Those are notations strictly for the receiving department. I have the men back there keep these in rotation so that I can always fill--in the same rotation as they come out of.

Mr. BELIN. And did you do any of that writing at all?

Mr. SCIBOR. No.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not these serial numbers are assigned by people under your supervision?

Mr. SCIBOR. Repeat that.

Mr. BELIN. Well, do you have any supervision or control over the people making the entries on the serial numbers and your control numbers?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I don't believe we went into your background, general background. You might state where you were born and what educational background you have, for the record.

Mr. SCIBOR. I was born in Chicago, November 27, 1920. I finished 4 years of high school, 6 1/2 years in the Marine Corps, and Klein's Sporting Goods.

Mr. BELIN. You're married?

Mr. SCIBOR. I have been with Klein's for 18 years.

Mr. BELIN. You have been with Klein's for 18----

Mr. SCIBOR. Approximately 18 years.

Mr. BELIN. And you're married?

Mr. SCIBOR. Married and two children.

Mr. BELIN. Where is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 filed customarily?

Mr. SCIBOR. That is filed in a ,desk drawer back in the receiving department, which I designated that those should be filed.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any master control ledger or book of any kind that has these control numbers on them?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes. One copy is sent to what we call the booking department, and those are put into a master book, control book.

Mr. BELIN. Are you required by law to keep records of serial numbers of guns?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And do you find on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 your control number for a rifle with the serial number C-2766?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is your control number?

Mr. SCIBOR. VC-836.

Mr. BELIN. How are these serial numbers obtained for placement on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4?

Mr. SCIBOR. Directly off the guns.

Mr. BELIN. Does someone actually look at the gun?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; someone looks; visually they are taken off the guns.

371

Page 372

Mr. BELIN. We want to thank you very much, sir, for your cooperation in helping obtaining this information.

KLEINíS MICHAELLIS Volume VII

TESTIMONY OF HEINZ W. MICHAELIS

The testimony of Heinz W. Michaelis was taken at 10 a.m., on May 11, 1964, at 1200 North Soto Street, Los Angeles, Calif., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Mr. George A. Rose, President of George Rose & Co., was present.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Heinz W. Michaelis, M-i-c-h-a-e-l-i-s.

Mr. BALL What is your first name?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Heinz, H-e-i-n-z.

Mr. BALL. Heinz Michaelis.

Mr. Michaelis, you received a letter last week from Mr. Rankin, counsel for the Commission, did you not?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That was what date that you received it?

Mr. MICHAELIS. I received it on Thursday.

Mr. BALL That would be----

Mr. MICHAELIS. 11---the 7th.

Mr. BALL. The 7th of May. And you were invited to give your testimony today by way of this deposition, weren't you?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You are willing to do so, are you not?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you understand that the purpose of the inquiry is to inquire into the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy in Dallas on November 22, 1963?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What is your address?

Mr. MICHAELIS. 5227 West Olympic Boulevard.

Mr. BALL. In Los Angeles?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Los Angeles.

Mr. BALL. And your business address?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Pardon me. Correction. 5755 I am sorry.

Mr. BALL. And your business address?

Mr. MICHAELIS. 1200 North Soto, Los Angeles.

Mr. BALL. Have you recently changed your business address?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. From what address?

Mr. MICHAELIS. From 1225 South Grand Avenue.

Mr. BALL. Are you employed, self-employed, or do you work for some company?

Mr. MICHAELIS. I work for the George Rose & Co.

Mr. BALL. What business is the George Rose & Co. engaged in?

Mr. ROSE. You work for Merchanteers.

Mr. MICHAELIS. Oh, pardon me; Merchanteers, Inc.

Mr. BALL. Your immediate employer is Merchanteers, Inc.?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Merchanteers, Inc.

Mr. BALL. Is that associated with the George Rose & Co.?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. In what business is Merchanteers, Inc., engaged?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Merchanteers, Inc. has mail order----

Mr. ROSE. Mail order and management.

Mr. MICHAELIS. And management.

Mr. BALL. And does it do work for George Rose & Co.?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Do I work for George Rose & Co.?

Mr. ROSE. Yes.

372

Page 373

Mr. BALL. Well, Merchanteers, Inc.---it is the mail order agency for George Rose & Co., is it?

Mr. ROSE. No; may I clarify it?

Mr. BALL. Yes; well, I better have him, and then I may ask you to clarify it.

Mr. ROSE. Yes; all right.

Mr. BALL. Tell me what you know of the relationship between George Rose & Co. and Merchanteers?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Well, Merchanteers, Inc. is a mail-order business. But, it is also a management company and makes out the paychecks for employees from the George Rose & Co.

Mr. BALL. I see. Now, what business is George Rose & Co. engaged in?

Mr. MICHAELIS. George Rose & Co. are wholesalers and sell to retail stores.

Mr. BALL. What do they sell?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Musical instruments, cutlery, firearms, watches, clocks, and various others.

Mr. BALL. Does George Rose & Co. engage in any mail-order business?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yeah; we get mail orders, too.

Mr. BALL. You take mail orders as George Rose & Co.?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. ROSE. Wholesale.

Mr. BALL. At wholesale?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Wholesale, yeah.

Mr. BALL. Now, there is also a company called Seaport Traders, isn't there?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Seaport Traders is another mail-order business.

Mr. BALL. It is another mail-order business?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. Do you work for them?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Only in a supervisory position.

Mr. BALL. That is the company that you work for, Merchanteers, you say?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Merchanteers; yes.

Mr. BALL. Is it Merchanteers, Inc.?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Merchanteers, Inc.; yes.

Mr. BALL. They manage the business of Seaport Traders?

Mr. MICHAELIS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. Now, last fall did the Federal Bureau of Investigation visit your place of business and inquire as to the sale of a certain Smith & Wesson revolver?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. About what date?

Mr. MICHAELIS. I believe it was November the 30th, a Saturday.

Mr. BALL. And in searching your records for any such sale, to what particular record did you first look?

Mr. MICHAELIS. We started first, after having received the serial number, through our serial number book for this particular type of gun.

Mr. BALL. Now, what serial number did the FBI give you?

Mr. MICHAELIS. V, as in victory, 510210-65248.

Mr. BALL. Now, those two numbers signify what?

Mr. MICHAELIS. The first number, V510210, is commonly described as the butt number, while the second number, 65248, usually is described as the crane number.

Mr. BALL. Now, the serial numbers are stamped where on the gun?

Mr. MICHAELIS. As mentioned before, the first number is on the butt of the gun.

Mr. BALL. I see.

Mr. MICHAELIS. And also it appears on the lower part of the barrel.

Furthermore, it appears also on the outside rim of the cylinder of the gun. In other words, the first number, 510210, appears three times on the gun.

Mr. BALL. And that is usually known as the serial number of the gun; is that right?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. But, we are---it is required that since Smith & Wesson revolvers carry two kinds of serial numbers, also to list the so-called crane number.

Mr. BALL. Is that also known as the assembly number, the crane number?

373

Page 374

Mr. MICHAELIS. I am not familiar with the word assembly number, but it might be possible.

Mr. BALL. What is the meaning of the word crane?

Mr. MICHAELIS. The crane is when you flip off the cylinder, inside is a crane and there is a number on the stem, which is the second number.

Mr. BALL. Do you maintain a record of all sales of guns in a book?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; in this book here.

Mr. BALL. You have the book before you, do you not?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That is a black, looseleaf notebook; looseleaf notebook with a black cover. Is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. And you keep that in handwriting, or by typewriting?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Handwriting.

Mr. BALL. Do you keep a typewritten or handwritten record?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Handwritten.

Mr. BALL. When the agent from the Federal Bureau of Investigation called on you on Saturday, November 30, 1963, you looked to your book that carries a record in handwriting of your sales?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And did you find this record of this particular gun?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I hand you here a document which is identified as FBI Laboratory No. D-191, being a photostat. Do you recognize this?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Will you compare that with the page in your notebook?

Mr. MICHAELIS. It is the same.

Mr. BALL. And that is identified in your notebook as Case No. 3?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Case No. 3.

Mr. BALL. What is the significance of the words "Case No. 3"?

Mr. MICHAELIS. It is a listing of a case which we received.

Mr. BALL. Of a case, a particular case, of guns; is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. It also has a 99 enclosed in a circle. What is the significance of that?

Mr. MICHAELIS. I presume that is the contents, the piece contents of the case.

Mr. BALL. You found, therefore, a record in your notebook, and that would indicate what? That you had sold the gun at some time?

Mr. MICHAELIS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. Now, I would like to offer and have marked this photostat of a page of the looseleaf notebook, which is identified as Case No. 3, as Exhibit No. 1 to this deposition of Mr. Michaelis.

(Whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the Michaelis deposition as Commission Exhibit No. 1 for identification by the notary public.)

Mr. BALL. Now, from that looseleaf notebook were you able to determine from what source you bought the gun?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me now where you bought the gun and when?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And from whom?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Excuse me.

Mr. BALL. Now, you have before you now a file?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And does it refer to this particular purchase of 99 guns?

Mr. MICHAELIS. No. We bought altogether 500 guns.

Mr. BALL. 500? And what is the file, the title, that you are now showing?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Empire Wholesale.

Mr. BALL. All right. Now, tell me what you found as to the source of this gun; where you bought it and from whom.

Mr. MICHAELIS. We bought it from Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, Ltd., 360 Craig Street West, Montreal 1, Quebec.

374

Page 375

Mr. BALL. And what date did you buy it?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Invoice No. 1181 dated October 13, 1962.

Mr. BALL. And it was shipped to you by the Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, Ltd., on what date?

Mr. MICHAELIS. It went---it was on 10/19/62, in St. Albans, Vt., and from then on it was directed to our place of business, which was at that time 1225 South Grand Avenue. However, the merchandise in question did not arrive before January 3, 1963.

Mr. BALL. Is that the date it did arrive?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes. It was received January 3, 1963.

Mr. BALL. Off the record.

(Discussion held off the record.)

Mr. BALL. Now, when this gun was first received, what was the length of its barrel?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Five inches.

Mr. BALL. And was it changed?

Mr. MICHAELIS. It was changed.

Mr. BALL. To what?

Mr. MICHAELIS. To a 2 1/4-inch barrel.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to do that?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Well, we gave the guns out to Mr. L. M. Johnson and instructed him to make up the guns as far as barrel lengths are concerned to our specifications.

Mr. BALL. Why did you shorten them from 5 to 2 1/4 inches? Explain to me for the record.

Mr. MICHAELIS. Because we have quite frequently calls for the Smith & Wesson revolvers with shorter barrels such as 2 1/4 inch or 4 inch.

Mr. BALL. Did you shorten all of the consignment that you received?

Mr. MICHAELIS. No.

Mr. BALL. Just a certain number?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, this particular gun was shortened, then, from 5 to 2 1/4?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Johnson's number--and is that M. L. Johnson?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; just a minute. Or L. M. It is M. L.

Mr. BALL. And what is his address?

Mr. MICHAELIS. At that time, 13440 Burbank Boulevard, Van Nuys, Calif.

Mr. BALL. Now, that gun was sold, was it not, pursuant to a mail order?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; mail order.

Mr. BALL. I hand you a document which has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 135. Will you examine that and tell me whether or not you ever saw that before?

Mr. MICHAELIS. I saw it the first time on November the 30th.

Mr. BALL. The first time?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And where did you find that? Where was it when you saw it on November 30?

Mr. MICHAELIS. It was attached to our invoice No. 5371, in the records, the red copy.

Mr. BALL. Now, this particular mail order, did you have anything to do with filling that order?

Mr. MICHAELIS. No.

Mr. BALL. What is your position here? Do you have charge of the office?

Mr. MICHAELIS. I am manager.

Mr. BALL. You are manager of the office?

Mr. MICHAELIS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. And all of these records are under your control, are they?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Well, not particularly at that time because my actual supervision of the Seaport Traders, Inc., activities started later during the year. mean in September and October, when the girl in charge left.

Mr. BALL. At least in November you were in charge and in possession of all of the records of the Seaport Traders?

375

Page 376

Mr. MICHAELIS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. You have no personal knowledge, then, of the transaction by which the gun was shipped and sold?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Not prior to the first investigation.

Mr. BALL. But you are providing me with records which were under your control as of November 1963?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; correct.

Mr. BALL. Now, can you tell me who would have actually received the mail order through the mail and who would have filled the order and shipped it? Do you know what person would have done this?

Mr. MICHAELIS. There are various operations. The order was received by----

Mr. ROSE. I probably would have opened it.

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; Mr. Rose usually opens the mail and distributes the mail. This particular order would have gone to the person in charge at that time of the Seaport Traders, who was Emma Vaughn.

Mr. BALL. Who?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Emma Vaughn, V-a-u-g-h-n.

Mr. BALL. Then what would have happened?

Mr. MICHAELIS. She would have processed the order in writing up invoice No. 5371. After 1 week she gave out the order to the order filler and packer.

Mr. BALL. What is the name?

Mr. MICHAELIS. This is a title, order filler and packer. She is one person.

Mr. BALL. What is that last word?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Packer.

Mr. BALL. Packer. I see.

Mr. MICHAELIS. And the order was shipped on March the 20th, 1963.

Mr. BALL. You have been testifying from a record which you have before you?

Mr. MICHAELIS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. And that is a paper which has been marked for identification by the Federal Bureau of Investigation DL-28, Seaport Traders, Inc., No. A-5371. Is that correct? You have been testifying from information contained on that?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. That was in your records, was it, as of November 30, 1963?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; it was.

Mr. BALL. Will you tell me, describe that document and tell me its significance in your business?

Mr. MICHAELIS. This particular document is, after the order is processed, filed in our records under the name of the respective customer.

Mr. BALL. You mean after the revolver that was ordered by this mail order coupon, 135, has been packed and shipped, this invoice A-5371, is filed as a permanent record, is it, of the shipment?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct; filed under the name of the respective customer.

Mr. BALL. Now, this shows the words A. J. Hidell, P.O. Box 2915, Dallas, Tex. This appears on this invoice A-5371, does it not?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. It is described as an S. & W. .38 special, 2-inch Commando. What is the meaning of that?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Two inch is the barrel length. Commando is a description which we more or less gave because we have another 2-inch gun at a higher price and, in order that the order filler is able to identify between the two types, we have this type described as Commando.

Mr. BALL. Now, the No. 510210. What is the significance of that number?

Mr. MICHAELIS. It is the serial number of the gun in question

Mr. BALL. And it shows deposit, $10. Balance c.o.d., $19.95. What is the significance of that?

Mr. MICHAELIS. We received, together with the order, the amount of $10 in cash. Since the sales price is $29.95, the merchandise was shipped with a c.o.d for the balance of $19.95.

Mr. BALL. Does this invoice show the date it was shipped?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What was that?

376

 

Page 377

Mr. MICHAELIS. March 20.

Mr. BALL. 1963?

Mr. MICHAELIS. 1963.

Mr. BALL. Does it also show which one of your companies shipped it?

Mr. MICHAELIS. The Seaport Traders, Inc.

Mr. BALL. I would like to have this document marked, Invoice No. A-5371, as the Exhibit No. 2 to the deposition of Mr. Michaelis.

(Whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the Michaelis deposition as Commission Exhibit No. 2 for identification by the notary public.)

Mr. BALL. Now I also show you a white copy of invoice No. A-5371 which has been marked on the face as DL-27. Can you tell me what that document is?

Mr. MICHAELIS. This document is the first copy of the invoice No. 5371 which is kept in the office as permanent record and is filed in the numerical order.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me what your business custom was in March of 1963 with reference to the preparing of invoices, original invoice and copies, and shipping an item which had been ordered by mail?

Mr. MICHAELIS. The order received by mail is written up and invoiced in quadruplicate on a snap-out form. The first white copy remains in the office and is filed on a numerical order.

The second copy is used as a packing slip whereby the upper part of the invoice is torn off and used as a shipping label and the lower part used as a packing slip.

The third copy is filed permanently in the office under the name of the respective customer after the order has been shipped.

The fourth copy is the acknowledgment of the order copy and lists on the back side a statement which has to be signed by the respective customer.

Mr. BALL. What statement?

Mr. MICHAELIS. A statement to the effect, I believe that it said that the buyer states that he is a citizen of the United States, and that he has never been convicted in any court of the United States, territories, possessions, et cetera. Do you want me----

Mr. BALL. Well, now, this fourth copy that has on the back this statement by the customer, is that mailed to the customer?

Mr. MICHAELIS. It is mailed to the customer, but not .in this particular case. Indicated on the invoice are three X's, which indicates that we have already a statement to this effect on file because this particular mail order coupon has already the statement, and the name of the witness.

Mr. BALL. Now, the particular mail-order coupon that you refer to is Commission No. 135, and it has on it the statement required together with the witness?

Mr. MICHAELIS. With the witness; that's right.

Mr. BALL. And that witness' name is what?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Well, I identify it as D-r-i-t-t-a-l.

Mr. BALL. That's right. You are right.

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Then in this instance the fourth copy did not go to the purchaser?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Did not go to the purchaser; that is correct.

Mr. BALL. And the first copy is in white and is the one which you have identified?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And we will mark that as Exhibit 3.

(Whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the Michaelis deposition as Commission Exhibit No. 3 for identification by the notary public.)

Mr. BALL. The second copy is in red, is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. The second copy is in yellow.

Mr. BALL Yellow. That is the packing slip copy?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. The third copy is in red?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

377

Page 378

Mr. BALL. And that is the one you have identified as Exhibit 2, is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; that's correct.

Mr. BALL. And in this instance the fourth copy was not used, is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. Exhibits 2 and 3 were also found as a part of your original records when you investigated, or looked through your records at the request of the Federal Bureau of Investigation on November 30, 1963. Is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. I will show you another document here which is a slip of red paper marked "Railway Express Agency" which has been heretofore identified with an FBI Exhibit No. DL-29. What is that document?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Just a minute, I have to get the original. Now, this exhibit number-----

Mr. BALL. It is given a No. DL-29. Will you describe it, please?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; that is a copy of the receipt which we got from the Railway Express Agency showing that on March 20, 1963, one carton with a pistol was shipped to A. Hidell, P.O. Box 2915, Dallas, Tex. It shows, furthermore, that Railway Express is instructed to collect a c.o.d. fee of $19.95. And it shows furthermore the number of the original receipt, which is 70638.

Mr. BALL. Number of original receipt? Which receipt?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Of the Railway Express receipt.

Mr. BALL. IS this it here?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Original receipt, Railway Express receipt, is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes

Mr. BALL. Does it identify the invoice in any way?

Mr. MICHAELIS. No.

Mr. BALL. Except by name is that right?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Except by name.

Mr. BALL. And does it describe the article shipped?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Only in broad terms.

Mr. BALL. What?

Mr. MICHAELIS. One carton consisting of a pistol.

Mr. BALL. One carton, pistol. I see. I would like to have this marked as Exhibit 4, being the pink copy of a Railway Express receipt.

(Whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the Michaelis deposition as Commission Exhibit No. 4 for identification by the notary public.)

Mr. BALL. Now, a document identified as No. DL-30 by the Bureau of Investigation, receipt No. 70638. Will you describe that for me, please?

Mr. MICHAELIS. This document is required in addition by the Railway Express Agency for all c.o.d. shipments, and indicates again the name of the consignee, his address, and lists our invoice number which is, in this case, No. 5371. It directs the Railway Express Agency to remit the amount to be collected to Seaport Traders, Inc. The amount of the c.o.d. is $19.95, and the service charge has to be collected from the consignee.

Mr. BALL. I would like to have that marked as Exhibit 5.

(Whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the Michaelis deposition as Commission Exhibit No. 5 for identification by the notary public.)

Mr. BALL. Now, Exhibit 4 has been described as a Railway Express Agency receipt. Exhibit 5, which is an additional document entitled "A brief of information for c.o.d. shipment, Railway Express Agency," those were in your files when you searched for information regarding the sale of this' pistol as of November 30, 1963. Is that correct?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. Is there anything in your files which shows that the Railway Express did remit to you the $19.95?

Mr. MICHAELIS. The fact that the exhibit number--may I see this green one?

Mr. BALL. Five.

Mr. MICHAELIS. Was attached to the red copy of the invoice.

378

Page 379

Mr. BALL. Red copy of the invoice being----

Mr. MICHAELIS. No; was attached to the red copy of the invoice, exhibit number----

Mr. BALL. Two.

Mr. MICHAELIS. Indicates that the money was received.

Mr. BALL. I see. Now, these documents were delivered to the Federal Bureau of Investigation by you, were they not?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Through Mr. Wood; yes.

Mr. BALL. And these documents, Exhibits 2 to 5, inclusive, are original documents, are they not?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Exhibit 1 being a photostat of the page in your looseleaf notebook?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. Which carries the record of the sale, record of the item?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Correct.

Mr. BALL. And does anybody in your organization that you know of have any personal knowledge of packing this particular gun and shipping it?

Mr. MICHAELIS. I doubt very much that the packer would remember this particular parcel.

Mr. BALL. About how many guns of this type do you sell and ship out of here in a year?

Mr. MICHAELIS. In I year?

Mr. BALL. Yes; just a general estimate.

Mr. MICHAELIS. For Seaport Traders?

Mr. ROSE. That type of gun--we sell more .22's.

Mr. BALL. Well, about how many?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Seaport Traders, I would say that--this is a rough guess.

Mr. BALL. This particular type, that Seaport Traders might have sold maybe 120 in a year; 120, 150 in a year.

Mr. BALL. Would that be sold through mail order, or both mail order----

Mr. MICHAELIS. I am talking about particularly mail-order business from Seaport Traders.

Mr. BALL. 120 or 125?

Mr. MICHAELIS. 120, 150, Of this particular type of gun.

Mr. BALL. Is there anything else that you know about this particular transaction that you would like to tell me?

Mr. MICHAELIS. No, sir; I believe I answered all the questions of this transaction.

KLEINíS-WALDMAN Volume VII

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM J. WALDMAN

The testimony of William J. Waldman was taken on May 20, 1964, at 4540 West Madison Street, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

William J. Waldman, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your full name?

Mr. WALDMAN. William J. Waldman.

Mr. BELIN. And where do you live, Mr. Waldman?

Mr. WALDMAN. 335 Central Avenue, Wilmette, Ill.

Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Chicago?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's a suburb of Chicago.

360

Page 361

Mr. BELIN. And what is your occupation?

Mr. WALDMAN. Vice president of Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with Klein's?

Mr. WALDMAN. Approximately 12 years.

Mr. BELIN. And in your capacity as vice president, what are your general areas of work?

Mr. WALDMAN. Supervising office, warehouse, and retail operations, participating in the merchandising and advertising.

Mr. BELIN. What kinds of products does Klein's sell?

Mr. WALDMAN. Sporting goods in the majority, with some few specialty items which appeal to the male consumer.

Mr. BELIN. Would these include goods such as fishing items or hunting items?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not included in the products handled by Klein's are rifles?

Mr. WALDMAN. Would you restate the question?

Mr. BELIN. Does Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., handle rifles in their line of sporting goods?

Mr. WALDMAN. They do.

Mr. BELIN. For the record, we would like to have a little bit more of your overall background. Were you originally born in Chicago?

Mr. WALDMAN. No; I was born in Sedalia, Mo., November 16, 1912. Education: I don't know just what you're after.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you went through high school?

Mr. WALDMAN. I completed high school, attended Carnegie Institute of Technology, New York University. I don't know the nature of how far you want this developed.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you had some college work then?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And after you got out of college, what did you do?

Mr. WALDMAN. I got out of college and I was employed by Sears and Roebuck, Spiegel's, Inc., and various other employment, served in the U.S. Army, Air Corps branch.

Mr. BELIN. This is during World War II?

Mr. WALDMAN. During World War II. Following which I was employed for a brief period in a family business, and subsequently by Klein's Sporting Goods.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, I hand you what is being marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit I and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Could you please tell us what that statement constitutes?

Mr. WALDMAN. This constitutes a purchase order of Klein's directed to Crescent Firearms Co. for Italian Carcano rifles prepared on January 2, 19--, oh, wait a minute; hold that a moment, January 24, 1963, calling for 200 units at a cost of $8.50.

Mr. BELIN. Now----

Mr. WALDMAN. I haven't finished.

Mr. BELIN. Let me just ask you this preliminary question: This is a photostatic copy of a document, is it not?

Mr. WALDMAN. It is.

Mr. BELIN. And is the original copy, or was the original copy prepared by someone under your direction or supervision?

Mr. WALDMAN. The original was prepared under a system which I originated and this particular order was not prepared at my direction. It would be--the merchandise was ordered in a routine basis at a time in which it was needed, and----

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who the person is that filled out this order?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; his initials are so indicated as "M.W."

Mr. BELIN. Would that be the name at the lower lefthand corner of Exhibit 1?

Mr. WALDMAN. It is.

Mr. BELIN. And that is who?

Mr. WALDMAN. Mitchell W. Westra.

361

Page 362

Mr. BELIN. At that time was he an employee of your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. He was.

Mr. BELIN. Was he under your jurisdiction and supervision?

Mr. WALDMAN. He was not under my direct supervision, no. He was under the supervision of Sam Kasper.

Mr. BELIN. And where is Sam Kasper now?

Mr. WALDMAN. He may or may not be here.

Mr. BELIN. I don't mean this afternoon. Is he with the company?

Mr. WALDMAN. He is the vice president of our company.

Mr. BELIN. He is the other vice president of the company?

Mr. WALDMAN. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you started to go into the detail of what Deposition Exhibit I constituted. I just wonder if you will pick up where you left off here.

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; on the same form we show a record of the receipt of the rifles in question, specifically this extreme right-hand column which is filled in, indicating that on February 22, delivery was made to us by Lifschultz Trucking Co. I might explain the difference in the two dates here.

Mr. BELIN. Go ahead.

Mr. WALDMAN. The February 21 date is the date in which the merchandise came to our premises whereas the date of February 22, is the date in which they were officially received by our receiving department.

Mr. BELIN. Your receiving department checks each order to see that the physical contents match the stated shipment on the invoice; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. They don't necessarily see that they match because they frequently do not match, but they determine actually how much was received by us.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I notice on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. I a date well, I might read everything under the column of description; it says Italian Mannlicher-Carcano, Model 91TS, bolt action 6-shot rifle; and then cal.--that's for caliber--6.5, and then there is an "X" and 52 mm Italian-select, clean, and test-fired, changed to Beretta Terni M19, then a slash line 38 EFF, and then the date of 4/16/62. Explain that date and that description.

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; this general style of rifle was made by a number of different manufacturers over a period of time and there were minor modifications made by---developed by each of the manufacturers.

Mr. BELIN. Would this be similar to a number of manufacturers making the Springfield rifle in this country?

Mr. WALDMAN. As for example, the different manufacturers making the Springfield rifle. Basically, the weapons were of the same general design, but as I say, there were details that were different.

We originally had ordered one style of Carcano rifle, one that was known as the Model 91TS. As time went on, we changed to another model known as the Model 91/38EFF, this on April 13, 1962.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I also note on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, under the item number--some letters here or numbers----

Mr. WALDMAN. C20-T749.

Mr. BELIN. What does that signify?

Mr. WALDMAN. This is an identification number assigned by us for internal operating purposes.

Mr. BELIN. Would this be something akin to a catalog number?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Off the record now. Can I speak without being----

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

(Whereupon, discussion was had off the record.)

Mr. BELIN. On the record.

Now, Mr. Waldman, you just requested to go off the record and told me that this is, the number that you read is not necessarily the only number that is assigned to one of these model rifles. Do you ever have any other numbers assigned to them?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What would be the occasion for assigning a different number?

Mr. WALDMAN. When the rifle is offered and sold together with a scope and

362

Page 363

mount, we assign a different catalog number which describes the rifle, the scope and the mount.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever sell any of these particular rifles with scopes and mounts?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were these scopes and mounts purchased from the same source as the rifle itself?

Mr. WALDMAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, does the date April 13, 1962, have anything to do with the time with which you received orders from customers of Klein's for any of these rifles?

Mr. WALDMAN. That date has no reference to our activity with consumers as such. It only indicates in our buying of these rifles we changed from one model to another, both models being very similar.

Mr. BELIN. Both being the Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 caliber rifle?

Mr. WALDMAN. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit 2 and ask you to state if you know what that is.

Mr. WALDMAN. I do.

Mr. BELIN. What is it?

Mr. WALDMAN. This is a delivery receipt from the Lifschultz Fast Freight covering 10 cases of guns delivered to Klein's on February 21, 1963, from Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. I note that there is some handwriting on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 2 that says, "Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., J. A. Mueller, 2--21-63." Would that be one of your employees at that time?

Mr. WALDMAN. He was. Mr. Mueller was in charge of our receiving department at that time.

Mr. BELIN. And do you know how many guns or rifles would have been packed in each carton or case?

Mr. WALDMAN. Referring to the various delivery receipts, copies of which we have, these are packing slips, incidentally, not receipts; these were packing receipts included in each case. It was indicated there were 10 rifles in each case.

Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; these are memos prepared by Crescent Firearms showing serial numbers of rifles that were shipped to us and each one of these represents those rifles that were contained in a case.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you earlier mentioned that these were packed with the case.

Mr. WALDMAN. Well, I would like to correct that. This particular company does not include these with the cases, but sends these memos separately with their invoice.

Mr. BELIN. Now, again, Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 is a photostatic copy. Do you have the actual copies that came to you in front of you at this time?

Mr. WALDMAN. I do.

Mr. BELIN. And is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 an accurate photostat of these other copies?

Mr. WALDMAN. It is.

Mr. BELIN. I notice that there are numbers on each of these papers with 10 serial numbers each. I see here No. 3672, 3504 on the first photostat of Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3. Do you see that?

Mr. WALDMAN. I do.

Mr. BELIN. I'm going to ask you to search through these 10 photostats and see if you find any invoice number that has on it a serial number, C-2766.

Mr. WALDMAN. Crescent Firearms delivery memo No. 3620 covering carton or case No. 3376 does have a--indicate a rifle bearing serial No. 2766.

Mr. BELIN. Well, is it 2766 or is there a prefix to it?

Mr. WALDMAN. There is a prefix, C-2766.

Mr. BELIN. And you see that as also a part of Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3; I believe you are reading from the actual document in your possession

363

Page 364

which Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 is a photostat of; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. When a shipment of rifles is received, what is your procedure with regard to record keeping on the serial numbers of the rifles?

Mr. WALDMAN. We assign to each rifle a control number which is a number used by us to record the history of the gun while it is in our possession and until it is sold, thus each rifle will be tagged with both this control number and with the serial number of the rifle which is stamped on the--imprinted on the gun by the manufacturer.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have the same--does the same manufacturer give different serial numbers for each weapon that the manufacturer makes?

Mr. WALDMAN. The gun manufacturers imprint a different number on each gun. It's stamped into the frame of the gun and serves as a unique identification for each gun.

Mr. BELIN. Well, I hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is the record created by us showing the control number we have assigned to the gun together with the serial number that is imprinted in the frame of the gun.

Mr. BELIN. Now, this is a photostat, I believe, of records you have in front of you on your desk right now?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Do you find anywhere on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 the serial number C--2766?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And what is your control number for that?

Mr. WALDMAN. Our control number for that is VC-836.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 5 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is an invoice rendered us by Crescent Firearms on their date February 7, 1963, for one hundred each 6.5 Italian rifles.

Mr. BELIN. Is there, anything on that invoice that shows how the rifles were shipped to you?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's indicated as having been shipped by the North Penn Transfer-Lifschultz and that there were 10 cases or cartons.

Mr. BELIN. Does it show whether or not this invoice was paid?

Mr. WALDMAN. It shows that payment was made on March 4, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, were you ever contacted by any law enforcement agency about the disposition of this Mannlicher-Carcano rifle that had the serial number C-2766 on it?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; on the night of November 22, 1963, the FBI contacted our company in an effort to determine whether the gun had been in our possession and, if so, what disposition we had made of it.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know how the FBI happened to contact you or your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. The FBI had a record of a gun of this type and with this serial number having been shipped to us by Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. Do you mean that Crescent Firearms gave the FBI this information?

Mr. WALDMAN. Well, I--I must assume that's the case. I don't know it for a fact.

Mr. BELIN. All right. What did you and your company do when you were contacted by the FBI?

Mr. WALDMAN. We met with the FBI in our offices.

Mr. BELIN. Was this on Friday evening, November 22?

Mr. WALDMAN. On Friday evening, November 22.

Mr. BELIN. Did the FBI indicate at what time, what period that they felt you might have received this rifle originally?

Mr. WALDMAN. We were able to determine from our purchase records the date in which the rifle had been received, and they also had a record of when it had

364

Page 365

been shipped, so we knew the approximate date of receipt by us, and from that we made---let's see, we examined our microfilm records which show orders from mail order customers and related papers, and from this determined to whom the gun had been shipped by us.

Mr. BELIN. Are these microfilm records part of your customary recording of transactions of your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; they are.

Mr. BELIN. I'm handing you what has been marked as an FBI Exhibit D-77 and ask you if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is a microfilm record that---of mail order transactions for a given period of time. It was turned over by us to the FBI.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know when it was turned over to the FBI?

Mr. WALDMAN. It was turned over to them on November 23, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you are reading from the carton containing that microfilm. Do you know whose initials are on there?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the initials on here are mine and they were put on the date on which this was turned over to the FBI concerned with the investigation.

Mr. BELIN. You have on your premises a machine for looking at the microfilm prints?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And you can make copies of the microfilm prints?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if we can adjourn the deposition upstairs to take a look at these records in the microfilm and get copies of the appropriate records that you found on the evening of November 22.

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the microfilm machine.)

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, you have just put the microfilm which we call D-77 into your viewer which is marked a Microfilm Reader-Printer, and you have identified this as No. 270502, according to your records. Is this just a record number of yours on this particular shipment?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's a number which we assign for identification purposes.

Mr. BELIN. And on the microfilm record, would you please state who it shows this particular rifle was shipped

Mr. WALDMAN. Shipped to a Mr. A.--last name H-i-d-e-l-l, Post Office Box 2915, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. And does it show arts' serial number or control number?

Mr. WALDMAN. It shows shipment of a rifle bearing our control number VC-836 and serial number C-2766.

Mr. BELIN. Is there a price shown for that?

Mr. WALDMAN. Price is $19.95, plus $1.50 postage and handling, or a total of $21.45.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I see another number off to the left. What is this number?

Mr. WALDMAN. The number that you referred to, C20-T750 is a catalog number.

Mr. BELIN. And after that, there appears some words of identification or description. Can you state what that is?

Mr. WALDMAN. The number designates an item which we sell, namely, an Italian carbine, 6.5 caliber rifle with the 4X scope.

Mr. BELIN. Is there a date of shipment which appears on this microfilm record?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the date of shipment was March 20, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. Does it show by what means it was shipped?

Mr. WALDMAN. It was shipped by parcel post as indicated by this circle around the letters "PP."

Mr. BELIN. Does it show if any amount was enclosed with the order itself?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the amount that was enclosed with the order was $21.45, as designated on the right-hand side of this order blank here.

Mr. BELIN. Opposite the words "total amount enclosed"?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

365

Page 366

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything which indicates in what form you received the money?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; below the amount is shown the letters "MO" designating money order.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I see the extreme top of this microfilm, the date, March 13, 1963; to what does that refer?

Mr. WALDMAN. This is an imprint made by our cash register indicating that the remittance received from the customer was passed through our register on that date.

Mr. BELIN. And to the right of that, I see $21.45. Is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any other record that you have in connection with the shipment of this rifle other than the particular microfilm negative frame that we are looking at right now?

Mr. WALDMAN. We have a--this microfilm record of a coupon clipped from a portion of one of our advertisements, which indicates by writing of the customer on the coupon that he ordered our catalog No. C20-T750; and he has shown the price of the item, $19.95, and gives as his name A. Hidell, and his address as Post Office Box 2915, in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else on that negative microfilm frame?

Mr. WALDMAN. The coupon overlays the envelope in which the order was mailed and this shows in the upper left-hand corner .the return address of A. Hidell, Post Office Box 2915, in Dallas, Tex.

There is a postmark of Dallas, Tex., and a postdate of March 12, 1963, indicating that the order was mailed by airmail.

Mr. BELIN. Can you see the actual cancelled stamp in the upper right-hand corner?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And the stamp itself says "United States Airmail"?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And underneath that, someone has written "airmail"; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's true.

Mr. BELIN. And someone has written it addressed to you; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. And is it possible on this machine to make prints of these negatives?

(Whereupon, it was attempted to make copies of said documents.)

Mr. BELIN. I think the record should show that all of this testimony has been taken upstairs with the court reporter present in front of the actual microfilm machine itself; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, let us adjourn to your office and continue the taking of this testimony, please.

(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the office where the deposition originally commenced)

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, I'm going to mark what has FBI Exhibit D-77 on it as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 6, being the container with your initials and the microfilm record itself, which you placed on the microfilm reader and about which you have just testified upstairs.

Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is a cops made from our microfilm reader-printer of Dallas, Tex. I want to clarify that this is not the order, itself, received from Mr. Hidell, but it's a form created by us internally from an order received from Mr. Hidell on a small coupon taken from an advertisement of ours in a magazine.

Mr. BELIN. This Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 is a print from the micro- film negative which we just viewed upstair; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 8 is also a print from the

366

Page 367

microfilm record we viewed upstairs showing the actual coupon and the envelope in which the coupon was enclosed; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And do you have any general advertising program whereby you advertise in gun magazines?

Mr. WALDMAN. We do.

Mr. BELIN. Can you just give us one or more of the magazines in which this coupon might have been taken?

Mr. WALDMAN. Well, this coupon was specifically taken from American Rifleman Magazine, issue of February 1963. It's identified by the department number which is shown as--now, if I can read this--shown as Department 358 on the coupon.

Mr. BELIN. And that number also appears in the address on the envelope to you, is that correct, or to your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I believe that you said the total amount was $19.95, plus $1.50 for shipping charges, or $21.45; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. The $1.50 is for both shipping charges and handling.

Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 788, which appears to be a U.S. postal money order payable to the order of Klein's Sporting Goods, and marked that it's from a purchaser named A. Hidell, and as the purchaser's street address is Post Office Box No. 2915, and the purchaser's City, Dallas, Tex.; March 12, 1963: and underneath the amount of $21.45, the number 2,202,130,462. And on the reverse side there appears to be an endorsement of a bank.

I wonder if you would read that endorsement, if you would, and examine it, please.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is a stamped endorsement reading "Pay to the order of the First National Bank of Chicago," followed by our account No. 50 space 91144, and that, in turn, followed by "Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc."

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not that is your company's endorsement on that money order?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's identical to our endorsement.

Mr. BELIN. And I hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 9 and ask you if you can state what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is our endorsement stamp which reads the same as that shown on the money order in question.

Mr. BELIN. You have just now stamped Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 9 with your endorsement stamp?

Mr. WALDMAN. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any way of knowing when exactly this money order was deposited by your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. I cannot specifically say when this money order was deposited by our company; however, as previously stated, a money order for $21.45 passed through our cash register on March 13, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. You're reading from Waldman---

Mr. WALDMAN. From a Mr. A. Hidell of Post Office Box No. 2915, from Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. And you are now reading from Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7?

Mr. WALDMAN. As indicated on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7. Now, we cannot specifically say when this money order was deposited, but on our deposit of March 13, 1963, we show an item of $21.45, as indicated on the Xerox copy of our deposit slip marked, or identified by--as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 10.

Mr. BELIN. And I have just marked as a document what you are reading from, which appears to be a deposit with the First National Bank of Chicago by your company; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And on that deposit, one of the items is $21.45, out of a total deposit that day of $13,827.98; is that correct?

367

Page 368

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when we examined. Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, had a control number of which the last four numbers were T749, and when you shipped the rifle, you had the control number with the last four numbers as T750; otherwise the control number is the same. Could you tell us what accounts for the difference?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; these numbers that you referred to are not control numbers, as previously stated. These are known as catalog numbers. The number C20-T749 describes a rifle only, whereas the catalog No. C20-T750 describes the Italian carbine rifle with a four-power scope, which is sold as a package unit.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what the rifle would have cost without the scope?

Mr. WALDMAN. As I recall, it was either $12.78 or $12.95.

Mr. BELIN. Would the advertisement run in the Rifleman's Magazine of February 1963, have given the purchaser the option to buy with or without the if you remember?

Mr. WALDMAN. Without specific reference to the ad, I would say that it Most usually we did.

Mr. BELIN. And the purchaser would signify his preference in what manner?

Mr. WALDMAN. The customer designates whether he wants the rifle only or whether he wants the rifle with the scope by his selection of catalog numbers.

Mr. BELIN. When this rifle came to your company, was the scope already mounted on it when you got it from Crescent?

Mr. WALDMAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. Who put the scope on the rifle?

Mr. WALDMAN. The scope was mounted on the rifle in our gun ,shop, most probably by a gunsmith named William Sharp.

Mr. BELIN. Would Mr. Sharp drill whatever holes were necessary for the mounting and do the actual mounting then himself?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Would Mr. Sharp or anyone else in your company in any way sight in the sight, whether it would be boresighting or actual firing with the sight?

Mr. WALDMAN. No; it's very unlikely in an inexpensive rifle of this sort that he would do anything other than roughly aline the scope with the rifle.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any records which show where you purchased the scope?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's reasonably certain the scope was purchased from Martin B. Retting, Inc., 1129 Washington Boulevard, Culver City, Calif.

Mr. BELIN. Would it have any identification on the scope itself, if you know?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's most probable it carried the name "Ordnance Optics."

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Waldman, perhaps we'd better further identify the microfilm which show your control numbers. We marked the microfilm as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 6. Do you have any control numbers on this at all which indicate which microfilm this is?

Mr. WALDMAN. This is our film No. 38, which covers our transactions Nos. 269688 through 270596.

Mr. BELIN. And I believe that you already testified to the control number or transaction number that appears on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 as being number what?

Mr. WALDMAN. 270502.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, referring to Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3, which are the serial numbers of the 100 rifles which were made in this shipment from Crescent Firearms to you, and Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 5, which is the invoice from Crescent Firearms which has stamped on it that it was paid by your company on March 4, is there any way to verify that this payment pertained to rifles which are shown on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3?

Mr. WALDMAN. The forms submitted by Crescent Firearms showing serial numbers of rifles included in the shipment covered by their invoice No. 3178 indicate that the rifle carrying serial No. C-2766 was included in that shipment.

Mr. BELIN. Now, those forms----

368

Page 369

Mr. WALDMAN. Those forms are your exhibit captioned Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3. Now, our payment voucher No. 28966 of March 1, 1963, which is your Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 5 shows in the lower portion, second column from the left, the number 3178, which ties in with Crescent Firearms invoice No. 3178.

Mr. BELIN. And you have before you a carbon copy of a check that was written by your company to Crescent Firearms in the amount of $850, and attached to it, the attachment that shows it's for invoice No. 3178?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, do your records show whether or not the rifle was shipped with the scope mounted on it or is there any way that you know whether or not it was?

Mr. WALDMAN. Our catalog No. C20-T750, which was the number indicated on the coupon prepared by A. Hidell, designates a rifle with scope attached. And we would have so shipped it unless the customer specifically specified that he did not wish to have it attached. There is nothing in our records to indicate that there was any request made by the customer, and therefore we would have every reason to believe that it was shipped as a rifle with scope-mounted.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not the rifle would have been broken down in shipment or whether or not it would have been shipped fully assembled?

Mr. WALDMAN. It was customary for us to ship all of these rifles and scopes fully assembled, and I would have no reason to believe that this particular one would have been shipped otherwise.

Mr. BELIN. And do you know in what kind of a container it would have been shipped?

Mr. WALDMAN. It was customary for us to ship these rifles with scopes attached in a corrugated cardboard carton made for us by the Rudd Container Corporation of Chicago.

Mr. BELIN. About how long would that carton be in size, if you know?

Mr. WALDMAN. Approximately 60 inches.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever furnish any samples of this carton or any wrapping paper or tape to the FBI?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; we did furnish a sample of the carton together with the type of sealing tape that was generally used and such craft paper that may have been used for inner cushioning packing.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, when we testified upstairs in front of the microfilm machine, was the microfilm itself more clear or less clear than the photostats or prints that have been made from it?

Mr. WALDMAN. More clear.

Mr. BELIN. So it would be possible to read items on the microfilm itself that might not come out clear on the printed copies?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy appreciates all the cooperation which your company, and in particular you, have given to this situation. And we know that it's not a happy situation to you, and that the gun could have been purchased anywhere. As it happens, this particular gun was purchased with your company, and we want to thank you very much for your cooperation.

Mr. WALDMAN. Thank you.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to see the deposition before you sign it? Mr. Waldman, you have the right to read the deposition and sign it before anything further is done with it, or you can waive the signing of it, whatever you like.

Mr. WALDMAN. It would be well for me to read this because of the possibility of a transposition of numbers or other errors in the recording.

Mr. BELIN. All right. (To reporter.) Perhaps you can keep the original copy here, if you would, and give it to Mr. Waldman and mail the other copies directly to us in Washington, and then could you make whatever corrections there are and send it directly to us in Washington, and I'll give you my name if you would mail it to my attention.

369

 

 

KLEINíS-WALDMAN-SHARP-SCIBOR

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM J. WALDMAN

The testimony of William J. Waldman was taken on May 20, 1964, at 4540 West Madison Street, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

William J. Waldman, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your full name?

Mr. WALDMAN. William J. Waldman.

Mr. BELIN. And where do you live, Mr. Waldman?

Mr. WALDMAN. 335 Central Avenue, Wilmette, Ill.

Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Chicago?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's a suburb of Chicago.

360

Page 361

Mr. BELIN. And what is your occupation?

Mr. WALDMAN. Vice president of Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with Klein's?

Mr. WALDMAN. Approximately 12 years.

Mr. BELIN. And in your capacity as vice president, what are your general areas of work?

Mr. WALDMAN. Supervising office, warehouse, and retail operations, participating in the merchandising and advertising.

Mr. BELIN. What kinds of products does Klein's sell?

Mr. WALDMAN. Sporting goods in the majority, with some few specialty items which appeal to the male consumer.

Mr. BELIN. Would these include goods such as fishing items or hunting items?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not included in the products handled by Klein's are rifles?

Mr. WALDMAN. Would you restate the question?

Mr. BELIN. Does Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., handle rifles in their line of sporting goods?

Mr. WALDMAN. They do.

Mr. BELIN. For the record, we would like to have a little bit more of your overall background. Were you originally born in Chicago?

Mr. WALDMAN. No; I was born in Sedalia, Mo., November 16, 1912. Education: I don't know just what you're after.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you went through high school?

Mr. WALDMAN. I completed high school, attended Carnegie Institute of Technology, New York University. I don't know the nature of how far you want this developed.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you had some college work then?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And after you got out of college, what did you do?

Mr. WALDMAN. I got out of college and I was employed by Sears and Roebuck, Spiegel's, Inc., and various other employment, served in the U.S. Army, Air Corps branch.

Mr. BELIN. This is during World War II?

Mr. WALDMAN. During World War II. Following which I was employed for a brief period in a family business, and subsequently by Klein's Sporting Goods.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, I hand you what is being marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit I and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Could you please tell us what that statement constitutes?

Mr. WALDMAN. This constitutes a purchase order of Klein's directed to Crescent Firearms Co. for Italian Carcano rifles prepared on January 2, 19--, oh, wait a minute; hold that a moment, January 24, 1963, calling for 200 units at a cost of $8.50.

Mr. BELIN. Now----

Mr. WALDMAN. I haven't finished.

Mr. BELIN. Let me just ask you this preliminary question: This is a photostatic copy of a document, is it not?

Mr. WALDMAN. It is.

Mr. BELIN. And is the original copy, or was the original copy prepared by someone under your direction or supervision?

Mr. WALDMAN. The original was prepared under a system which I originated and this particular order was not prepared at my direction. It would be--the merchandise was ordered in a routine basis at a time in which it was needed, and----

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who the person is that filled out this order?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; his initials are so indicated as "M.W."

Mr. BELIN. Would that be the name at the lower lefthand corner of Exhibit 1?

Mr. WALDMAN. It is.

Mr. BELIN. And that is who?

Mr. WALDMAN. Mitchell W. Westra.

361

Page 362

Mr. BELIN. At that time was he an employee of your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. He was.

Mr. BELIN. Was he under your jurisdiction and supervision?

Mr. WALDMAN. He was not under my direct supervision, no. He was under the supervision of Sam Kasper.

Mr. BELIN. And where is Sam Kasper now?

Mr. WALDMAN. He may or may not be here.

Mr. BELIN. I don't mean this afternoon. Is he with the company?

Mr. WALDMAN. He is the vice president of our company.

Mr. BELIN. He is the other vice president of the company?

Mr. WALDMAN. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you started to go into the detail of what Deposition Exhibit I constituted. I just wonder if you will pick up where you left off here.

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; on the same form we show a record of the receipt of the rifles in question, specifically this extreme right-hand column which is filled in, indicating that on February 22, delivery was made to us by Lifschultz Trucking Co. I might explain the difference in the two dates here.

Mr. BELIN. Go ahead.

Mr. WALDMAN. The February 21 date is the date in which the merchandise came to our premises whereas the date of February 22, is the date in which they were officially received by our receiving department.

Mr. BELIN. Your receiving department checks each order to see that the physical contents match the stated shipment on the invoice; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. They don't necessarily see that they match because they frequently do not match, but they determine actually how much was received by us.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I notice on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. I a date well, I might read everything under the column of description; it says Italian Mannlicher-Carcano, Model 91TS, bolt action 6-shot rifle; and then cal.--that's for caliber--6.5, and then there is an "X" and 52 mm Italian-select, clean, and test-fired, changed to Beretta Terni M19, then a slash line 38 EFF, and then the date of 4/16/62. Explain that date and that description.

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; this general style of rifle was made by a number of different manufacturers over a period of time and there were minor modifications made by---developed by each of the manufacturers.

Mr. BELIN. Would this be similar to a number of manufacturers making the Springfield rifle in this country?

Mr. WALDMAN. As for example, the different manufacturers making the Springfield rifle. Basically, the weapons were of the same general design, but as I say, there were details that were different.

We originally had ordered one style of Carcano rifle, one that was known as the Model 91TS. As time went on, we changed to another model known as the Model 91/38EFF, this on April 13, 1962.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I also note on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, under the item number--some letters here or numbers----

Mr. WALDMAN. C20-T749.

Mr. BELIN. What does that signify?

Mr. WALDMAN. This is an identification number assigned by us for internal operating purposes.

Mr. BELIN. Would this be something akin to a catalog number?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Off the record now. Can I speak without being----

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

(Whereupon, discussion was had off the record.)

Mr. BELIN. On the record.

Now, Mr. Waldman, you just requested to go off the record and told me that this is, the number that you read is not necessarily the only number that is assigned to one of these model rifles. Do you ever have any other numbers assigned to them?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What would be the occasion for assigning a different number?

Mr. WALDMAN. When the rifle is offered and sold together with a scope and

362

Page 363

mount, we assign a different catalog number which describes the rifle, the scope and the mount.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever sell any of these particular rifles with scopes and mounts?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were these scopes and mounts purchased from the same source as the rifle itself?

Mr. WALDMAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, does the date April 13, 1962, have anything to do with the time with which you received orders from customers of Klein's for any of these rifles?

Mr. WALDMAN. That date has no reference to our activity with consumers as such. It only indicates in our buying of these rifles we changed from one model to another, both models being very similar.

Mr. BELIN. Both being the Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 caliber rifle?

Mr. WALDMAN. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit 2 and ask you to state if you know what that is.

Mr. WALDMAN. I do.

Mr. BELIN. What is it?

Mr. WALDMAN. This is a delivery receipt from the Lifschultz Fast Freight covering 10 cases of guns delivered to Klein's on February 21, 1963, from Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. I note that there is some handwriting on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 2 that says, "Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., J. A. Mueller, 2--21-63." Would that be one of your employees at that time?

Mr. WALDMAN. He was. Mr. Mueller was in charge of our receiving department at that time.

Mr. BELIN. And do you know how many guns or rifles would have been packed in each carton or case?

Mr. WALDMAN. Referring to the various delivery receipts, copies of which we have, these are packing slips, incidentally, not receipts; these were packing receipts included in each case. It was indicated there were 10 rifles in each case.

Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; these are memos prepared by Crescent Firearms showing serial numbers of rifles that were shipped to us and each one of these represents those rifles that were contained in a case.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you earlier mentioned that these were packed with the case.

Mr. WALDMAN. Well, I would like to correct that. This particular company does not include these with the cases, but sends these memos separately with their invoice.

Mr. BELIN. Now, again, Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 is a photostatic copy. Do you have the actual copies that came to you in front of you at this time?

Mr. WALDMAN. I do.

Mr. BELIN. And is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 an accurate photostat of these other copies?

Mr. WALDMAN. It is.

Mr. BELIN. I notice that there are numbers on each of these papers with 10 serial numbers each. I see here No. 3672, 3504 on the first photostat of Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3. Do you see that?

Mr. WALDMAN. I do.

Mr. BELIN. I'm going to ask you to search through these 10 photostats and see if you find any invoice number that has on it a serial number, C-2766.

Mr. WALDMAN. Crescent Firearms delivery memo No. 3620 covering carton or case No. 3376 does have a--indicate a rifle bearing serial No. 2766.

Mr. BELIN. Well, is it 2766 or is there a prefix to it?

Mr. WALDMAN. There is a prefix, C-2766.

Mr. BELIN. And you see that as also a part of Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3; I believe you are reading from the actual document in your possession

363

Page 364

which Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 is a photostat of; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. When a shipment of rifles is received, what is your procedure with regard to record keeping on the serial numbers of the rifles?

Mr. WALDMAN. We assign to each rifle a control number which is a number used by us to record the history of the gun while it is in our possession and until it is sold, thus each rifle will be tagged with both this control number and with the serial number of the rifle which is stamped on the--imprinted on the gun by the manufacturer.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have the same--does the same manufacturer give different serial numbers for each weapon that the manufacturer makes?

Mr. WALDMAN. The gun manufacturers imprint a different number on each gun. It's stamped into the frame of the gun and serves as a unique identification for each gun.

Mr. BELIN. Well, I hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is the record created by us showing the control number we have assigned to the gun together with the serial number that is imprinted in the frame of the gun.

Mr. BELIN. Now, this is a photostat, I believe, of records you have in front of you on your desk right now?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Do you find anywhere on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 the serial number C--2766?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And what is your control number for that?

Mr. WALDMAN. Our control number for that is VC-836.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 5 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is an invoice rendered us by Crescent Firearms on their date February 7, 1963, for one hundred each 6.5 Italian rifles.

Mr. BELIN. Is there, anything on that invoice that shows how the rifles were shipped to you?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's indicated as having been shipped by the North Penn Transfer-Lifschultz and that there were 10 cases or cartons.

Mr. BELIN. Does it show whether or not this invoice was paid?

Mr. WALDMAN. It shows that payment was made on March 4, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, were you ever contacted by any law enforcement agency about the disposition of this Mannlicher-Carcano rifle that had the serial number C-2766 on it?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; on the night of November 22, 1963, the FBI contacted our company in an effort to determine whether the gun had been in our possession and, if so, what disposition we had made of it.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know how the FBI happened to contact you or your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. The FBI had a record of a gun of this type and with this serial number having been shipped to us by Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. Do you mean that Crescent Firearms gave the FBI this information?

Mr. WALDMAN. Well, I--I must assume that's the case. I don't know it for a fact.

Mr. BELIN. All right. What did you and your company do when you were contacted by the FBI?

Mr. WALDMAN. We met with the FBI in our offices.

Mr. BELIN. Was this on Friday evening, November 22?

Mr. WALDMAN. On Friday evening, November 22.

Mr. BELIN. Did the FBI indicate at what time, what period that they felt you might have received this rifle originally?

Mr. WALDMAN. We were able to determine from our purchase records the date in which the rifle had been received, and they also had a record of when it had

364

Page 365

been shipped, so we knew the approximate date of receipt by us, and from that we made---let's see, we examined our microfilm records which show orders from mail order customers and related papers, and from this determined to whom the gun had been shipped by us.

Mr. BELIN. Are these microfilm records part of your customary recording of transactions of your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; they are.

Mr. BELIN. I'm handing you what has been marked as an FBI Exhibit D-77 and ask you if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is a microfilm record that---of mail order transactions for a given period of time. It was turned over by us to the FBI.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know when it was turned over to the FBI?

Mr. WALDMAN. It was turned over to them on November 23, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you are reading from the carton containing that microfilm. Do you know whose initials are on there?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the initials on here are mine and they were put on the date on which this was turned over to the FBI concerned with the investigation.

Mr. BELIN. You have on your premises a machine for looking at the microfilm prints?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And you can make copies of the microfilm prints?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if we can adjourn the deposition upstairs to take a look at these records in the microfilm and get copies of the appropriate records that you found on the evening of November 22.

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the microfilm machine.)

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, you have just put the microfilm which we call D-77 into your viewer which is marked a Microfilm Reader-Printer, and you have identified this as No. 270502, according to your records. Is this just a record number of yours on this particular shipment?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's a number which we assign for identification purposes.

Mr. BELIN. And on the microfilm record, would you please state who it shows this particular rifle was shipped

Mr. WALDMAN. Shipped to a Mr. A.--last name H-i-d-e-l-l, Post Office Box 2915, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. And does it show arts' serial number or control number?

Mr. WALDMAN. It shows shipment of a rifle bearing our control number VC-836 and serial number C-2766.

Mr. BELIN. Is there a price shown for that?

Mr. WALDMAN. Price is $19.95, plus $1.50 postage and handling, or a total of $21.45.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I see another number off to the left. What is this number?

Mr. WALDMAN. The number that you referred to, C20-T750 is a catalog number.

Mr. BELIN. And after that, there appears some words of identification or description. Can you state what that is?

Mr. WALDMAN. The number designates an item which we sell, namely, an Italian carbine, 6.5 caliber rifle with the 4X scope.

Mr. BELIN. Is there a date of shipment which appears on this microfilm record?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the date of shipment was March 20, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. Does it show by what means it was shipped?

Mr. WALDMAN. It was shipped by parcel post as indicated by this circle around the letters "PP."

Mr. BELIN. Does it show if any amount was enclosed with the order itself?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the amount that was enclosed with the order was $21.45, as designated on the right-hand side of this order blank here.

Mr. BELIN. Opposite the words "total amount enclosed"?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

365

Page 366

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything which indicates in what form you received the money?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; below the amount is shown the letters "MO" designating money order.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I see the extreme top of this microfilm, the date, March 13, 1963; to what does that refer?

Mr. WALDMAN. This is an imprint made by our cash register indicating that the remittance received from the customer was passed through our register on that date.

Mr. BELIN. And to the right of that, I see $21.45. Is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any other record that you have in connection with the shipment of this rifle other than the particular microfilm negative frame that we are looking at right now?

Mr. WALDMAN. We have a--this microfilm record of a coupon clipped from a portion of one of our advertisements, which indicates by writing of the customer on the coupon that he ordered our catalog No. C20-T750; and he has shown the price of the item, $19.95, and gives as his name A. Hidell, and his address as Post Office Box 2915, in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else on that negative microfilm frame?

Mr. WALDMAN. The coupon overlays the envelope in which the order was mailed and this shows in the upper left-hand corner .the return address of A. Hidell, Post Office Box 2915, in Dallas, Tex.

There is a postmark of Dallas, Tex., and a postdate of March 12, 1963, indicating that the order was mailed by airmail.

Mr. BELIN. Can you see the actual cancelled stamp in the upper right-hand corner?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And the stamp itself says "United States Airmail"?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And underneath that, someone has written "airmail"; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's true.

Mr. BELIN. And someone has written it addressed to you; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. And is it possible on this machine to make prints of these negatives?

(Whereupon, it was attempted to make copies of said documents.)

Mr. BELIN. I think the record should show that all of this testimony has been taken upstairs with the court reporter present in front of the actual microfilm machine itself; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, let us adjourn to your office and continue the taking of this testimony, please.

(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the office where the deposition originally commenced)

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, I'm going to mark what has FBI Exhibit D-77 on it as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 6, being the container with your initials and the microfilm record itself, which you placed on the microfilm reader and about which you have just testified upstairs.

Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is a cops made from our microfilm reader-printer of Dallas, Tex. I want to clarify that this is not the order, itself, received from Mr. Hidell, but it's a form created by us internally from an order received from Mr. Hidell on a small coupon taken from an advertisement of ours in a magazine.

Mr. BELIN. This Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 is a print from the micro- film negative which we just viewed upstairs; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 8 is also a print from the

366

Page 367

microfilm record we viewed upstairs showing the actual coupon and the envelope in which the coupon was enclosed; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And do you have any general advertising program whereby you advertise in gun magazines?

Mr. WALDMAN. We do.

Mr. BELIN. Can you just give us one or more of the magazines in which this coupon might have been taken?

Mr. WALDMAN. Well, this coupon was specifically taken from American Rifleman Magazine, issue of February 1963. It's identified by the department number which is shown as--now, if I can read this--shown as Department 358 on the coupon.

Mr. BELIN. And that number also appears in the address on the envelope to you, is that correct, or to your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I believe that you said the total amount was $19.95, plus $1.50 for shipping charges, or $21.45; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. The $1.50 is for both shipping charges and handling.

Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 788, which appears to be a U.S. postal money order payable to the order of Klein's Sporting Goods, and marked that it's from a purchaser named A. Hidell, and as the purchaser's street address is Post Office Box No. 2915, and the purchaser's City, Dallas, Tex.; March 12, 1963: and underneath the amount of $21.45, the number 2,202,130,462. And on the reverse side there appears to be an endorsement of a bank.

I wonder if you would read that endorsement, if you would, and examine it, please.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is a stamped endorsement reading "Pay to the order of the First National Bank of Chicago," followed by our account No. 50 space 91144, and that, in turn, followed by "Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc."

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not that is your company's endorsement on that money order?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's identical to our endorsement.

Mr. BELIN. And I hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 9 and ask you if you can state what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. This is our endorsement stamp which reads the same as that shown on the money order in question.

Mr. BELIN. You have just now stamped Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 9 with your endorsement stamp?

Mr. WALDMAN. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any way of knowing when exactly this money order was deposited by your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. I cannot specifically say when this money order was deposited by our company; however, as previously stated, a money order for $21.45 passed through our cash register on March 13, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. You're reading from Waldman---

Mr. WALDMAN. From a Mr. A. Hidell of Post Office Box No. 2915, from Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. And you are now reading from Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7?

Mr. WALDMAN. As indicated on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7. Now, we cannot specifically say when this money order was deposited, but on our deposit of March 13, 1963, we show an item of $21.45, as indicated on the Xerox copy of our deposit slip marked, or identified by--as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 10.

Mr. BELIN. And I have just marked as a document what you are reading from, which appears to be a deposit with the First National Bank of Chicago by your company; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And on that deposit, one of the items is $21.45, out of a total deposit that day of $13,827.98; is that correct?

367

Page 368

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when we examined. Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, had a control number of which the last four numbers were T749, and when you shipped the rifle, you had the control number with the last four numbers as T750; otherwise the control number is the same. Could you tell us what accounts for the difference?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; these numbers that you referred to are not control numbers, as previously stated. These are known as catalog numbers. The number C20-T749 describes a rifle only, whereas the catalog No. C20-T750 describes the Italian carbine rifle with a four-power scope, which is sold as a package unit.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what the rifle would have cost without the scope?

Mr. WALDMAN. As I recall, it was either $12.78 or $12.95.

Mr. BELIN. Would the advertisement run in the Rifleman's Magazine of February 1963, have given the purchaser the option to buy with or without the if you remember?

Mr. WALDMAN. Without specific reference to the ad, I would say that it Most usually we did.

Mr. BELIN. And the purchaser would signify his preference in what manner?

Mr. WALDMAN. The customer designates whether he wants the rifle only or whether he wants the rifle with the scope by his selection of catalog numbers.

Mr. BELIN. When this rifle came to your company, was the scope already mounted on it when you got it from Crescent?

Mr. WALDMAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. Who put the scope on the rifle?

Mr. WALDMAN. The scope was mounted on the rifle in our gun ,shop, most probably by a gunsmith named William Sharp.

Mr. BELIN. Would Mr. Sharp drill whatever holes were necessary for the mounting and do the actual mounting then himself?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Would Mr. Sharp or anyone else in your company in any way sight in the sight, whether it would be boresighting or actual firing with the sight?

Mr. WALDMAN. No; it's very unlikely in an inexpensive rifle of this sort that he would do anything other than roughly aline the scope with the rifle.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any records which show where you purchased the scope?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's reasonably certain the scope was purchased from Martin B. Retting, Inc., 1129 Washington Boulevard, Culver City, Calif.

Mr. BELIN. Would it have any identification on the scope itself, if you know?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's most probable it carried the name "Ordnance Optics."

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Waldman, perhaps we'd better further identify the microfilm which show your control numbers. We marked the microfilm as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 6. Do you have any control numbers on this at all which indicate which microfilm this is?

Mr. WALDMAN. This is our film No. 38, which covers our transactions Nos. 269688 through 270596.

Mr. BELIN. And I believe that you already testified to the control number or transaction number that appears on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 as being number what?

Mr. WALDMAN. 270502.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, referring to Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3, which are the serial numbers of the 100 rifles which were made in this shipment from Crescent Firearms to you, and Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 5, which is the invoice from Crescent Firearms which has stamped on it that it was paid by your company on March 4, is there any way to verify that this payment pertained to rifles which are shown on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3?

Mr. WALDMAN. The forms submitted by Crescent Firearms showing serial numbers of rifles included in the shipment covered by their invoice No. 3178 indicate that the rifle carrying serial No. C-2766 was included in that shipment.

Mr. BELIN. Now, those forms----

368

Page 369

Mr. WALDMAN. Those forms are your exhibit captioned Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3. Now, our payment voucher No. 28966 of March 1, 1963, which is your Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 5 shows in the lower portion, second column from the left, the number 3178, which ties in with Crescent Firearms invoice No. 3178.

Mr. BELIN. And you have before you a carbon copy of a check that was written by your company to Crescent Firearms in the amount of $850, and attached to it, the attachment that shows it's for invoice No. 3178?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, do your records show whether or not the rifle was shipped with the scope mounted on it or is there any way that you know whether or not it was?

Mr. WALDMAN. Our catalog No. C20-T750, which was the number indicated on the coupon prepared by A. Hidell, designates a rifle with scope attached. And we would have so shipped it unless the customer specifically specified that he did not wish to have it attached. There is nothing in our records to indicate that there was any request made by the customer, and therefore we would have every reason to believe that it was shipped as a rifle with scope-mounted.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not the rifle would have been broken down in shipment or whether or not it would have been shipped fully assembled?

Mr. WALDMAN. It was customary for us to ship all of these rifles and scopes fully assembled, and I would have no reason to believe that this particular one would have been shipped otherwise.

Mr. BELIN. And do you know in what kind of a container it would have been shipped?

Mr. WALDMAN. It was customary for us to ship these rifles with scopes attached in a corrugated cardboard carton made for us by the Rudd Container Corporation of Chicago.

Mr. BELIN. About how long would that carton be in size, if you know?

Mr. WALDMAN. Approximately 60 inches.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever furnish any samples of this carton or any wrapping paper or tape to the FBI?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; we did furnish a sample of the carton together with the type of sealing tape that was generally used and such craft paper that may have been used for inner cushioning packing.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, when we testified upstairs in front of the microfilm machine, was the microfilm itself more clear or less clear than the photostats or prints that have been made from it?

Mr. WALDMAN. More clear.

Mr. BELIN. So it would be possible to read items on the microfilm itself that might not come out clear on the printed copies?

Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy appreciates all the cooperation which your company, and in particular you, have given to this situation. And we know that it's not a happy situation to you, and that the gun could have been purchased anywhere. As it happens, this particular gun was purchased with your company, and we want to thank you very much for your cooperation.

Mr. WALDMAN. Thank you.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to see the deposition before you sign it? Mr. Waldman, you have the right to read the deposition and sign it before anything further is done with it, or you can waive the signing of it, whatever you like.

Mr. WALDMAN. It would be well for me to read this because of the possibility of a transposition of numbers or other errors in the recording.

Mr. BELIN. All right. (To reporter.) Perhaps you can keep the original copy here, if you would, and give it to Mr. Waldman and mail the other copies directly to us in Washington, and then could you make whatever corrections there are and send it directly to us in Washington, and I'll give you my name if you would mail it to my attention.

369

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mitchell J. Scibor

Page 370

TESTIMONY OF MITCHELL J. SCIBOR

The testimony of Mitchell J. Scibor was taken on May, 20, 1964, at 4540 West Madison Street, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mitchell J. Scibor, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name for the record?

Mr. SCIBOR. Mitchell J. Scibor.

Mr. BELIN. And where do you live?

Mr. SCIBOR. 2942 North Sayre Avenue, Chicago, Ill.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. SCIBOR. Employed by Klein's Sporting Goods.

Mr. BELIN. In what capacity?

Mr. SCIBOR. General operating manager.

Mr. BELIN. Were you so employed on or about November 22, 1963?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you at any time on that date contacted by any law enforcement agency with regard to a particular rifle, Serial No. C-2766?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And could you tell us the circumstances surrounding this?

Mr. SCIBOR. I got a call Friday evening, November 22, asking if it would be possible to get at the records---at our records to see if that gun had been in our possession or sold by us. I got permission from one of the executives to open the store and view our records, and I came down here somewhere between 10 and 11 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. And what did you do when you got down here?

Mr. SCIBOR. We went in with the Government men and--just before we went in, Mr. Waldman came down and we came in and he took over as far as getting-- trying to find the information that we needed.

Mr. BELIN. How did you try to find that information?

Mr. SCIBOR. By looking in our microfilm records of sales of merchandise for that particular gun.

The FBI furnished us with information stating that we had received the gun from Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. Well, did you look at the microfilms of your purchasers or your sales or what?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; we used two machines and looked at the microfilms of our sales until we had found that particular gun with the serial number.

Mr. BELIN. You were upstairs when Mr. Waldman was looking at the microfilm of which a printed copy is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7; is that correct?

Mr. SCIBOR. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. And on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7, there is a Serial No C-2766?

Mr. SCIBOR. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. Was this serial number on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 the first contact you had on Friday evening that led you to believe that you had shipped this particular rifle?

Mr. SCIBOR. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. When did you discover or find out this information, if you know--strike the question.

I believe you said you got down here about 10 o'clock that night?

Mr. SCIBOR. Between 10 and 11.

Mr. BELIN. And then you started going through your microfilm records?

Mr. SCIBOR. Right.

Mr. BELIN. About when did you actually find the microfilm of which Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 is a print?

Mr. SCIBOR. About 4 o'clock in the roaming, as far as I can remember.

Mr. BELIN. You then turned this information over to the FBI?

Mr. SCIBOR. Mr. Waldman did.

370

 

Page 371

Mr. BELIN. Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; it's a copy of our receiving record which we use to identify firearms or guns by assigning a weapon a particular booking number or control number along with the serial number so at a future date we can identify that particular gun.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 before?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I notice the date and the notations in the upper lefthand corner, RR-1243; underneath that, the date 2-22-63. Do you know what that has reference to?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; the "RR" stands for receiving record No. 1243, and that merchandise was booked or actually received by our receiving-department on 2-22-63.

Mr. BELIN. Does it show from whom it was received?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. And underneath the "Crescent Firearms," what does it say?

Mr. SCIBOR. Italian Carcano T38, 6.5 Italian caliber rifle.

Mr. BELIN. Now, there are some notations in the upper righthand corner, what does that have reference to?

Mr. SCIBOR. Those are notations strictly for the receiving department. I have the men back there keep these in rotation so that I can always fill--in the same rotation as they come out of.

Mr. BELIN. And did you do any of that writing at all?

Mr. SCIBOR. No.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not these serial numbers are assigned by people under your supervision?

Mr. SCIBOR. Repeat that.

Mr. BELIN. Well, do you have any supervision or control over the people making the entries on the serial numbers and your control numbers?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I don't believe we went into your background, general background. You might state where you were born and what educational background you have, for the record.

Mr. SCIBOR. I was born in Chicago, November 27, 1920. I finished 4 years of high school, 6 1/2 years in the Marine Corps, and Klein's Sporting Goods.

Mr. BELIN. You're married?

Mr. SCIBOR. I have been with Klein's for 18 years.

Mr. BELIN. You have been with Klein's for 18----

Mr. SCIBOR. Approximately 18 years.

Mr. BELIN. And you're married?

Mr. SCIBOR. Married and two children.

Mr. BELIN. Where is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 filed customarily?

Mr. SCIBOR. That is filed in a ,desk drawer back in the receiving department, which I designated that those should be filed.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any master control ledger or book of any kind that has these control numbers on them?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes. One copy is sent to what we call the booking department, and those are put into a master book, control book.

Mr. BELIN. Are you required by law to keep records of serial numbers of guns?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And do you find on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 your control number for a rifle with the serial number C-2766?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is your control number?

Mr. SCIBOR. VC-836.

Mr. BELIN. How are these serial numbers obtained for placement on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4?

Mr. SCIBOR. Directly off the guns.

Mr. BELIN. Does someone actually look at the gun?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; someone looks; visually they are taken off the guns.

371

Page 372

Mr. BELIN. We want to thank you very much, sir, for your cooperation in helping obtaining this information.

KLEINíS-SCIBOR Volume VII 370

 

TESTIMONY OF MITCHELL J. SCIBOR

The testimony of Mitchell J. Scibor was taken on May, 20, 1964, at 4540 West Madison Street, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mitchell J. Scibor, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name for the record?

Mr. SCIBOR. Mitchell J. Scibor.

Mr. BELIN. And where do you live?

Mr. SCIBOR. 2942 North Sayre Avenue, Chicago, Ill.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. SCIBOR. Employed by Klein's Sporting Goods.

Mr. BELIN. In what capacity?

Mr. SCIBOR. General operating manager.

Mr. BELIN. Were you so employed on or about November 22, 1963?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you at any time on that date contacted by any law enforcement agency with regard to a particular rifle, Serial No. C-2766?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And could you tell us the circumstances surrounding this?

Mr. SCIBOR. I got a call Friday evening, November 22, asking if it would be possible to get at the records---at our records to see if that gun had been in our possession or sold by us. I got permission from one of the executives to open the store and view our records, and I came down here somewhere between 10 and 11 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. And what did you do when you got down here?

Mr. SCIBOR. We went in with the Government men and--just before we went in, Mr. Waldman came down and we came in and he took over as far as getting-- trying to find the information that we needed.

Mr. BELIN. How did you try to find that information?

Mr. SCIBOR. By looking in our microfilm records of sales of merchandise for that particular gun.

The FBI furnished us with information stating that we had received the gun from Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. Well, did you look at the microfilms of your purchasers or your sales or what?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; we used two machines and looked at the microfilms of our sales until we had found that particular gun with the serial number.

Mr. BELIN. You were upstairs when Mr. Waldman was looking at the microfilm of which a printed copy is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7; is that correct?

Mr. SCIBOR. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. And on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7, there is a Serial No C-2766?

Mr. SCIBOR. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. Was this serial number on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 the first contact you had on Friday evening that led you to believe that you had shipped this particular rifle?

Mr. SCIBOR. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. When did you discover or find out this information, if you know--strike the question.

I believe you said you got down here about 10 o'clock that night?

Mr. SCIBOR. Between 10 and 11.

Mr. BELIN. And then you started going through your microfilm records?

Mr. SCIBOR. Right.

Mr. BELIN. About when did you actually find the microfilm of which Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 is a print?

Mr. SCIBOR. About 4 o'clock in the roaming, as far as I can remember.

Mr. BELIN. You then turned this information over to the FBI?

Mr. SCIBOR. Mr. Waldman did.

370

 

Page 371

Mr. BELIN. Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; it's a copy of our receiving record which we use to identify firearms or guns by assigning a weapon a particular booking number or control number along with the serial number so at a future date we can identify that particular gun.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 before?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I notice the date and the notations in the upper lefthand corner, RR-1243; underneath that, the date 2-22-63. Do you know what that has reference to?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; the "RR" stands for receiving record No. 1243, and that merchandise was booked or actually received by our receiving-department on 2-22-63.

Mr. BELIN. Does it show from whom it was received?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. And underneath the "Crescent Firearms," what does it say?

Mr. SCIBOR. Italian Carcano T38, 6.5 Italian caliber rifle.

Mr. BELIN. Now, there are some notations in the upper righthand corner, what does that have reference to?

Mr. SCIBOR. Those are notations strictly for the receiving department. I have the men back there keep these in rotation so that I can always fill--in the same rotation as they come out of.

Mr. BELIN. And did you do any of that writing at all?

Mr. SCIBOR. No.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not these serial numbers are assigned by people under your supervision?

Mr. SCIBOR. Repeat that.

Mr. BELIN. Well, do you have any supervision or control over the people making the entries on the serial numbers and your control numbers?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I don't believe we went into your background, general background. You might state where you were born and what educational background you have, for the record.

Mr. SCIBOR. I was born in Chicago, November 27, 1920. I finished 4 years of high school, 6 1/2 years in the Marine Corps, and Klein's Sporting Goods.

Mr. BELIN. You're married?

Mr. SCIBOR. I have been with Klein's for 18 years.

Mr. BELIN. You have been with Klein's for 18----

Mr. SCIBOR. Approximately 18 years.

Mr. BELIN. And you're married?

Mr. SCIBOR. Married and two children.

Mr. BELIN. Where is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 filed customarily?

Mr. SCIBOR. That is filed in a ,desk drawer back in the receiving department, which I designated that those should be filed.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any master control ledger or book of any kind that has these control numbers on them?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes. One copy is sent to what we call the booking department, and those are put into a master book, control book.

Mr. BELIN. Are you required by law to keep records of serial numbers of guns?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And do you find on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 your control number for a rifle with the serial number C-2766?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is your control number?

Mr. SCIBOR. VC-836.

Mr. BELIN. How are these serial numbers obtained for placement on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4?

Mr. SCIBOR. Directly off the guns.

Mr. BELIN. Does someone actually look at the gun?

Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; someone looks; visually they are taken off the guns.

371