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LOUIS
NICHOLS Volume VII TESTIMONY OF H. LOUIS
NICHOLS
The testimony of H. Louis-Nichols was taken at 9:30 a.m., on April 8,
1964, in the office of the
325 Page 326
Mr. STERN. Good morning, Mr. Nichols. Will you stand and raise your right
and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. NICHOLS. I do.
Mr. STERN. Sit down, please. As
you know the President's Commission has been instructed by President Johnson to
inquire into all the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy.
This morning I would like to cover with you what you know about Lee Harvey
Oswald, whom I understand you interviewed at the
Would you state your name and business address?
Mr. NICHOLS. H. Louis Nichols, 1200
Mr. STERN. What is your profession?
Mr. NICHOLS. I am an attorney.
Mr. STERN. And how long have you been a member of the bar?
Mr. NICHOLS. Since 1939.
Mr. STERN. What bars are you a member of?
Mr. NICHOLS. State Bar of Texas, and admitted to practice in the Northern
District of Texas, Federal Court.
Mr. STERN. What position do you presently hold with the
Mr. NICHOLS. I am a member of the board of directors for the
Mr. STERN. During the calendar year, 1963?
Mr. NICHOLS. Yes.
Mr. STERN. I See. Would you relate for us, Mr. Nichols, in your own
words, what occurred respecting Lee Harvey Oswald and your inquiry whether he
had the opportunity to avail himself of counsel during the period of his
detention, which began on November 22, 1963?
Mr. NICHOLS. Sometime in the afternoon on Saturday the 23d of November,
as I best recall, in the neighborhood of about 2 o'clock, I received a phone
call from a lawyer friend of mine in
I told him I did not. He said he had received a phone call from an
eastern lawyer, dean of one of the law schools in the East, who told him that
the news media up there were saying that Oswald could not get a lawyer to
represent him in Dallas, and he wanted to know if I knew anything about the
situation. I told him I had not been following it too closely on television,
because I was out Friday and then out with my boy on Saturday morning and didn't
know really whether or not he had a lawyer.
And he said, well, that was the information he had received, and wanted
to know what I knew about it, and if he didn't have a lawyer, or wasn't able to
get one whether or not the bar association could, or would do anything about it.
I told him I didn't know what the situation was, but that I would be glad to
look into it, and--it had been less than 24 hours since Mr. Oswald had been
arrested. In order to refresh my memory as to what the requirement of the State
law is, and since I don't practice criminal law, I called a lawyer friend of
mine in Dallas who is a criminal lawyer and asked him just to tell me offhand
what the obligation was to appoint lawyers in criminal cases, if a person did
not have someone to represent him, and he told me that the obligation was only
to appoint counsel after a man had been indicted, and that, as he understood it,
since Mr. Oswald had not been indicted there was no legal obligation to appoint
an attorney.
I also received another call shortly thereafter from another lawyer
friend of mine in
326 Page 327 call from another
friend of mine, and that I had made some inquiry, and at this time I did not
know whether Oswald had a lawyer or was getting a lawyer, but that I was going
to make some inquiry to find out about it. After talking to the second friend
about it who called, I then called Mr. Henry Wade, the district attorney, to see
whether or not he knew whether or not Oswald was represented by a lawyer or not.
I did not know for sure at that time whether he was, simply because I had
no way of knowing whether he was represented or not.
I hadn't talked to anybody who was really informed, and I called Mr.
Wade. He said he didn't know for sure whether he was or not, as far as he knew
he hadn't been contacted by any lawyer who purported to represent Oswald. I
asked him whether or not either he or anybody in his office had been advised
that Oswald wanted a lawyer, or had made a request for a lawyer, and he said as
far as he knew he had not asked for a lawyer. I asked him too, as he was going
up there, and I asked him if Oswald requested a lawyer and didn't have a lawyer
would he tell him that the Dallas Bar Association would get a lawyer if he
needed one.
By that time I had time to think about what I thought my obligation
should be, and realizing that under the circumstances maybe some people might
overlook the fact that Oswald had rights that needed to be protected at the same
time, and if he didn't have a lawyer, regardless of what the legal obligation
was to appoint him a lawyer, we, the bar association, ought to look into the
matter.
Mr. Wade said he was going to go up there later on in the evening and he
would talk to his assistants who were in closer contact than he was, and if
Oswald wanted a lawyer--asked for a lawyer or wanted a lawyer appointed--he
would tell him of my conversation. I then called Glen King, and a captain on the
police force that I knew. I used to work for the city attorney's office, and
still represent, the city credit union and have a brother on the police force,
so, I have known many of these people for many years. I called Captain King and
asked him whether or not Oswald was represented by an attorney, if he knew if
there was an attorney up there, or anybody who had been up there representing
him, and Captain King said that as far as he knew there had been no one
representing him, and as far as he knew, Oswald had not asked for a lawyer. He
had not asked for the right to call a lawyer, and or had not asked that a lawyer
be furnished to him---and Captain King said, "If he does, I am certainly
going to call you and let you know, because we want to be sure if he wants a
lawyer he gets one. We don't want it to be a situation of anybody saying that we
deprived him of the right to have a lawyer."
I said, "Well, Glen, if you know at any time that he asks for a
lawyer, or wants a lawyer, or needs a lawyer, will you tell him that you have
talked to me, as president of the bar association, and that I have offered to
get him a lawyer if he wants one."
And Glen said, "Well, I'll just throw it back to you. You come down
and talk to him. I would be glad to have you talk to him."
I said, "I didn't know whether I wanted to or not at this
point." I hadn't quite decided at ,that point whether we could do something
about it, and I didn't know whether Oswald had his own attorney, but I told
Captain King if I decided to take him up on his offer I would come and see him.
It was about 3:30 or 4 o'clock. By that time I had talked to a criminal
lawyer, I had talked to Mr. Wade, I had talked to these two lawyer friends of
mine in trying to decide what, if anything I should do.
Up to that time I had not been told by any of these people that Oswald
had asked for a lawyer, or been denied a lawyer, or even knew whether he had a
lawyer. None of them knew for sure. I didn't--I then received a call from
another lawyer who was a professor out at S.M.U. and he wanted to know whether
or not the bar association was doing anything about getting a lawyer for Oswald.
I told him what had transpired, what I had done, and I hadn't decided what
should be done at this time, if anything by me, as president of the bar
association.
He seemed to think that it would be advisable and would be helpful if I
would go up and satisfy myself personally as to whether or not Oswald had any
lawyer, wanted a lawyer or was asking for a lawyer and hadn't been able to get
one, and I told him that I had not decided what to do, so, I sat around and
327 Page 328 Page 328 decided if it had to be
done. It seemed like enough time had gone by, and enough uncertainty among the
people I talked to as to whether or not he had a lawyer or had asked for a
lawyer that I decided I might as well go up and talk to him, so, I cleaned up
and went on up to the city hall. That was probably 5:30 or so in the afternoon.
Mr. STERN. City hall is where he was confined?
Mr. NICHOLS. City hall in
I knew Captain King, the administrative assistant to the chief, and his
office was in the same place so, I went to the third floor of the city hall, now
called the Police and
The building in which the police department is located and the jail is
located, and where I assumed Oswald was at that time. I went up to the third
floor, and when I got off the elevator there was just a whole mob of re-porters
and photographers and television cameras and cables and so forth stretched out
on that floor. Cables running in both directions, and I went down into the
chief's office, which is the eastern end of .the building, and when I went in
there, there were a number of people in his office, in the reception room, three
or four people back in the chief's office, Chief Curry's office, a number of
people, and I asked one of the officers in the reception room if Captain King
was there and he said, "Well, he didn't think so."
About that time Chief Curry looked up and saw me, and he knew me and
motioned me in, and I went in there and he introduced me to one of the FBI
agents who was there, and I told him I was up there as president of the bar
association looking for Captain King. I had talked to him earlier and I had come
up :there to see whether or not Mr. Oswald had a lawyer, or needed a lawyer, or
wanted the
The chief said that he was glad to see me and would take me up to see
Oswald himself and, so, we immediately left his office and started to another
part of the building, and he asked me where I wanted to talk to him. If I wanted
to be taken to a room or some place, or what would be convenient with me, and I
told him that any place would be all--I just wanted to visit with the man and
see what his situation was with regard to him having a lawyer. So, we then went
through a door on the third floor and got into the elevator and went up to the
sixth floor, and the chief again asked me where I wanted to talk to him. I said,
"Well, just any place."
By that time we had gotten to a portion of the jail that was separated by
bars and a door. Beyond that door were three separate cells, and there was an
officer seated outside one, and then we went through the first door and got to
that point and Mr. Oswald was in the center of the three cells, no one being in
the other two, and there was an officer seated outside there. The chief had the
officer open the door, and he introduced me to Oswald, and told him my name and
said that I was the president of the Dallas Bar Association and had come up to
see him about whether or not he needed or wanted a lawyer, and then the chief
stepped back and--I don't really know how far away. He was at least--he was far
enough removed where I couldn't observe him or see him there in the cell. The
officer stayed just right outside the door there. I reintroduced myself to
Oswald and told him my name, and that I was president of the Dallas bar, and
that I had come up to see him about whether or not he had a lawyer, or needed a
lawyer, or wanted a lawyer, and suggested that he sit down.
So, he sat on one bunk and I sat on the other. Maybe 3 or 4 feet apart.
When I got there he was lying on a bunk, and then he stood up when I came in and
then he sat on one bunk and I sat on the other, much as you and I are seated
here, only actually, a little bit closer, and I asked him if he had a lawyer,
and he said, "Well, he really didn't know what it was all about, that he
was--had been incarcerated, and kept incommunicado, and I said, "Well, I
have come up to see whether or not you want a lawyer, because as I
under-stand--" I am not exactly sure what I ,said there, or whether he said
some-thing about not knowing what happened to President Kennedy, or I said that
I understood that he was arrested for the shot that killed the President, and I
don't remember who said what after that. This is a little bit vague.
328 Page 329
I had covered that point in detail, and I don't recall exactly, but in
any event, our conversation was such that I informed him that I was there to see
whether or not he had a lawyer, or wanted a lawyer, and he said--he asked me
first did I know a lawyer in New York named John Abt, and I don't know if it is
A-b-t, or A-p-t.
Mr. STERN. I believe it is A-b-t.
Mr. NICHOLS. I believe it is. In New York City, I said I didn't know him,
and he said, "Well, I would like to have him to represent me," and at
some period I believe prior to that, either in talking to the police, or talking
to--must have been talking to either Captain King or the chief---I had been told
that some effort had been made to get hold of Mr. Abt, and that he was in
Connecticut at his home, and maybe, and I have forgotten who said who was trying
to get ahold of him. At least, I did vaguely know that someone was trying to get
ahold of him, but I told Mr. Oswald I didn't know him. He said, "Well, that
is the man he would like to have represent him." Then he asked me if I knew
any lawyers who were members of the American Civil Liberties Union, and he said,
"Well, I am a member of that organization, and I would like to have
somebody who is a member of that organization represent me." And I said,
"I'm sorry, I don't know anybody who is a member of that
organization."
Although, as it turned out later, a number of lawyers I know are members.
Two or three of them called me later. He said, "Well, if I can't get either
one of those, and if I can----"
Mr. STERN. That is either----
Mr. NICHOLS. "Either Mr. Abt or someone who is a member of the
American Civil Liberties Union, and if I can find a lawyer here who believes in
anything I believe in, and believes as I believe, and believes in my
innocence"-then paused a little bit, and went on a little bit and said,
"as much as he can, I might let him represent me."
I said, "What I am interested in knowing is right now, do you want
me or the Dallas Bar Association to try to get you a lawyer?"
He said, "No, not now."
He said, "You might come back next week, and if I don't get some of
these other people to represent me, I might ask you to get somebody to represent
me."
I said, "Well, now, all I want to do is to make it clear to you, and
to me, whether or not you want me or the
And he said, "No."
I was satisfied in my own mind that he knew what he was doing, and that
he didn't want me or the Dallas Bar Association to do anything right now. So, I
left, and as I left the chief asked me whether or not I wanted to make a
statement to the press, and I said, "Well, I don't know whether I do or
not. I don't know whether it is the thing to do or not." And he said,
"Well, they are going to be right outside the door there, and if you want
to say anything this would be an opportunity to do it."
He said, "Incidentally, I am very glad you came up here. We don't
want any question coming up about us refusing to let him have a lawyer.
As far as know, he has never asked for one. He has never asked to call
one."
And I believe the chief mentioned that Mr. Abt's name, but he said, has
never asked us to call him."
He said, "Do you think we have an obligation?" And I said,
"I don't know."
He said, "I am glad that you came down and talked to him.
At least that takes a problem off of us about not furnishing him a
lawyer."
And so, we about that time we stepped out of the door and there was just
a whole swam of photographers and cameramen standing right there. Right outside
the door on the third floor. They came out in the third floor, reached back down
in the third floor, and the chief told them who I was, and what I had been up
there for, and oh, for 4 or 5 minutes, what turned out to be live television
interview, whether or not--they asked me if I thought he was guilty, and if he
had admitted anything, and I told them that I didn't ask him, and he didn't tell
me, and they merely wanted to know the reason I was up here, and
329 Page 330 that interview is
something, I assume, that you have, or will be made available. I don't remember
exactly what transpired, and then--but they asked me what his attitude was,
whether he was belligerent and--or scared, and to me, he appeared to be neither
belligerent nor scared. He appeared to be a man that was pretty calm, I thought,
under the circumstances. He appeared to me that he knew where he was and pretty
much what his rights were with regard to being represented, and he knew
apparently--at least the conversation was that if he didn't get somebody to
represent him that he wanted that he could always fall back on the bar
association, or somebody, and I had told him that I would see him next week if
he wanted me to, and I satisfied myself at least, to the extent, that the man
appeared to know what he was doing. He did not appear to be irrational. He
appeared to be calm. He turned down my offer of help, and I felt like at that
point that was all I needed to do, and this was later Saturday afternoon, and I
had no inkling that anything else, except maybe that the next week if he didn't
get a lawyer I might hear from him, or check into it, and that's all I know
about Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. STERN. That's quite a complete statement.
Let's just cover a few details. What was his physical condition, as you
observed it?
Mr. NICHOLS. Well, he had a little scratch, or bruise over one eye. I
have forgotten whether over the left or right, ,but other than that, as I
recall, there were no indication of any other injuries or marks on him that I
could tell. He was dressed, I believe, in a white T-shirt and slacks, and
appeared to me to be in normal condition. I mean, there was nothing obviously
wrong with him from a physical standpoint, as I could observe.
Mr. STERN. Did he seem well rested, or tired?
Mr. NICHOLS. No; he seemed all right. When I went in there he was lying
on his back and he got up and he didn't--he looked like he was calm, and was
rested, and it---didn't appear to have now this is a guess, and my own
observation, did not appear to me to have been mistreated. I was interested in
observing whether or not he---it looked like he had been mistreated, because, as
a lawyer, I anticipate perhaps that he if he had been mistreated, or might claim
he had been mistreated it was something I should have observed at that time, and
I observed nothing to indicate that.
Mr. STERN. He, I gather, used the word "incommunicado" to
describe----
Mr. NICHOLS. Yes; that was his word.
Mr. STERN. Did he elaborate on that, or any---or indicate to you that he
had not been able to see members of his family or other people of his choice?
Mr. NICHOLS. No; he did not say that he had been refused anything.
Just didn't elaborate, and I really didn't ask him at that point.
My inquiry was intentionally very limited. I merely wanted to know
whether he had a lawyer, if he had a lawyer then I had no problems.
If he asked for a lawyer and they did not offer him one, that was
contrary to what I had been told, because I had been told, as far as the police
were concerned, and Mr. Wade, as he recalled, that the man had never asked for a
lawyer. Nor had he asked to call a lawyer, for the right to call a lawyer, so
that I was interested in knowing whether or not he had a lawyer and whether or
not he had requested a lawyer and been refused, because the story up east was
that he couldn't get a lawyer to represent him, and I knew that that wasn't
true, because I know Dallas lawyers, and I know that if the man had to have a
lawyer, we could have gotten one for him. So, I didn't go into the other
questions, or whether or not he wanted to see his family and hadn't been
permitted. I really was concerned about whether or not he had a lawyer or wanted
a lawyer, or whether we had any obligations to furnish him one.
Mr. STERN. Yes; I see. Did he elaborate on his statement to you that he
preferred a lawyer who believed in what he believed in, or was this as----
Mr. NICHOLS. Not at all. He said--I didn't ask him, because I didn't know
any lawyers--and I didn't know what he believed in, and I really wasn't
concerned at that stage in' the man's beliefs or what he had done or not done,
actually, I just wanted--the man was in jail, and it occurred to me that it
would be easy to overlook his fights at that time in view of the great emotion
and somebody ought to determine whether or not he wanted a lawyer, and I decided
330 Page 331 as president of the bar
association maybe that was my job to do it, so, I went up there to see about it.
Mr. STERN. You say he said he wanted a lawyer who believed in his
innocence?
Mr. NICHOLS. As much as he could.
Mr. STERN. As he could?
Mr. NICHOLS. Yes.
Mr. STERN. Did he elaborate?
Mr. NICHOLS. No; and I didn't ask him to elaborate on it because at that
stage I didn't know to what extent I would, or wanted to, or should become
embroiled in the facts. I wanted to know whether he needed a lawyer, and I
didn't anticipate that I would be his lawyer, because I don't practice criminal
law. They asked me, the newspapers did, and I honestly don't know what my answer
would have been if they had asked me, "Well, will you represent him?"
We can debate about that now until doomsday. All I know is when I went up
to talk to him I did not anticipate being the lawyer, because I don't practice
criminal law, although, when I talked to Henry Wade he said, jokingly, I hope it
was jokingly, and if the guy wants a lawyer he was going to request the judge
that he appoint me and the president of the criminal bar association to
represent him. I took that to be not a serious suggestion, because he knows that
I don't practice criminal law, although, on reflection that probably would have
been a good recommendation, since generally, I suppose, that if they appointed
the president of the bar association they couldn't say that he was getting
inferior representation. I am not bragging about that, but normally, I think
that would be the normal reaction that if they appointed the president of the
criminal bar association and the president of the local bar association then at
least the man would be represented.
Mr. STERN. What is the practice in this jurisdiction regarding the
appointment of counsel for indigents accused in criminal cases?
Mr. NICHOLS. Basically, I think that would follow the statutes which
provide that where it comes to the attention of the court, that a man charged
with a felony is not represented by an attorney that the court will appoint an
attorney to represent him. The statute further provides that the attorney
appointed to represent indigents be paid $25 a day for each day actually present
at the trial of the case in court, and not to exceed $100 for the handling of an
appeal. The usual procedure is, I believe, when it comes to the attention of the
judge that an accused in jail is not represented by an attorney--I am talking
about a felony case now---or a man, whether he is in jail or not, if he makes
requests of the court to appoint him a lawyer, the judges of the criminal
district court will, and do appoint lawyers to represent those people.
Mr. STERN. But, ordinarily, the appointment is handled by the judiciary?
Mr. NICHOLS. Yes.
Mr. STERN. And there is no, I take it, organized system of the bar
association to represent indigents?
Mr. NICHOLS. Well, the criminal--there are two bar associations in
331 Page 332 far as I know, none of
them have refused because it was too much of an imposition on them.
Mr. STERN. Your activities with respect to Oswald were unusual, though,
and not pursuant to any established arrangement?
Mr. NICHOLS. That's right.
Mr. STERN. Something you did because of the nature of the case, and the
questions that had been raised, and your own questions about his treatment?
Mr. NICHOLS. That's correct.
Mr. STERN. Did you, Mr. Nichols, make any notes of your activities on
November 23, 1963, either at the time, or did you at any later time have
occasion to prepare a written report of your activities?
Mr. NICHOLS. I did not make any notes at the time, and I didn't make any
notes as such, subsequently, after Mr. Oswald was killed. And why, I don't know.
It didn't, occur to me to do so. Later Mr. Leon Jaworski, a
Mr. STERN. I show you now a copy of the letter dated February 10, 1964,
to Mr. Jaworski. Is that the copy
you furnished to me?
Mr. NICHOLS. That is the copy I furnished to you, and the copy of the
letter which I wrote to Mr. Jaworski on that date.
Mr. STERN. Would you initial each of the four pages of that photostatic
copy, please, which we'll attach to your deposition as Exhibit A.
Thank you, sir. I believe that completes all the questions I have, Mr.
Nichols. Thank you very much for coming in today.
Mr. NICHOLS. You certainly are welcome.
Mr. STERN. The court reporter will transcribe the deposition and we can
furnish a copy of it to you for your review and signature, or the reporter can
send the transcript directly to the Commission without your review, if you care
to waive----
Mr. NICHOLS. I would like to have a copy of it, if I may do so, and I
understand that it will be available at some expense, whatever it costs--I want
to furnish it to the bar association for their records.
Mr. STERN. Fine. Forrest V. Sorrels -----------------------------
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