The testimony of Richard M. Sims was taken at 10:20 a.m., on April 6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John Hart Ely, and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.

Mr. BALL. Will you stand up and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. SIMS. I do.
Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?
Mr. SIMS. Richard M. Sims.
Mr. BALL. And what is your business or occupation?
Mr. SIMS. Police department, city of Dallas.
Mr. BALL. And what is your position with the police department?
Mr. SIMS. Detective in the homicide and robbery bureau since August 2, 1948.
Mr. BALL. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and educated and what you have done before you went with the police department?
Mr. SIMS. I was born and raised here in Dallas and I went to school--grade school in Dallas, but moved out to a little city called Hutchins, south of Dallas, and finished my education out there, and joined the Navy when I was 17, and was discharged when I was 21, and I came to work down here when I was 23.
Mr. BALL. With the police department?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you have been with them ever since?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And you have been with homicide how long?
Mr. SIMS. Since September 1957.
Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, what were your hours of duty?
Mr. SIMS. Well, actually, my hours of duty were from 4 to midnight, but because the President was going to be in Dallas, I came to work early because we was assigned with Captain Fritz to be down at the Trade Mart when the President arrived.
Mr. BALL. What time did you go to the Trade Mart?
Mr. SIMS. It was around 10 o'clock, I believe.
Mr. BALL. In the morning?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; 10 a.m.---Captain Fritz and Boyd and I.

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Mr. BALL Where were you when you heard the President had been shot?
Mr. SIMS. We were at the President's table. Chief Stevenson called Captain Fritz over and told him the President had been involved in an accident.
Mr. BALL. That was about what time of day?
Mr. SIMS. That was about 12:40, I believe, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you do then?
Mr. SIMS. Chief Stevenson told us to go to the hospital, Parkland Hospital, so we did.
Mr. BALL. Whom did you go with?
Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz and Boyd and I, and I drove.
Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz is the head of homicide squadron, isn't he?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And Boyd is your partner?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; Boyd is my partner since 1957.
Mr. BALL. And what did you do over there when you got to Parkland?
Mr. SIMS. Well, we arrived at Parkland and we saw that Chief Curry was there in front of the hospital, so he directed us back to the Depository Store, down to the Book Store.
Mr. BALL. Tell me this--what did he say--what did he tell you to do?
Mr. SIMS. I don't remember the exact words, but he told us to go back to the store at the triple underpass--I don't remember what it was--I couldn't say for sure.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody tell you at that time that there had been anyone in the Texas Depository Book Building that had done the shooting?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I think at that time it was strictly speculation from where the shot had been fired.
Mr. BALL. He just told you to go back to the scene of the shooting?
Mr. SIMS. Yes--as I said, I couldn't say for sure.
Mr. BALL. Did you go back there back to Elm and Houston?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we went directly to the Book Store and Sheriff Bill Decker rode back with us.
Mr. BALL. And you went right to the building?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; and pulled up in front of it there in front of the building.
Mr. BALL. On the way back, did you hear anything over the radio?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we heard them mention the Book Store.
Mr. BALL. What did they say--what did you hear?
Mr. SIMS. Well, now, I don't know.
Mr. BALL. You heard something about it?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we went there for some reason--I know that.
Mr. BALL. Was it something you heard over the radio that directed you to go there?
Mr. SIMS. We went directly to the store and parked there in front.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?
Mr. SIMS. Well, we took our rifles out of the car and shotgun, and proceeded to the building, went in the building.
Mr. BALL. What door of the building did you go in?
Mr. SIMS. The front door.
Mr. BALL. Who was with you?
Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz and Boyd and I.
Mr. BALL. Could you tell me about what time you got to the building?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I got it here--about 12:58--about 1 o'clock.
Mr. BALL. The radio log of that day at 12:36 shows that the following was broadcast from the police radio log: "The witness says shots came from the fifth floor of the Texas Book Depository Store at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building."
Do you think you heard that?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I wouldn't have heard that. We didn't hear about the shooting until 12:40, but we had to have heard something or we wouldn't have went directly to the Book Store like we did.
Mr. BALL. At 12:45, there was a broadcast that stated: "All the information we have received indicates it did come from the fifth floor of that building."
"Which building?"

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"The Texas Depository Building at Elm and Houston."
Do you know whether you could have heard that?
Mr. SIMS. Well, our radio was on--I could have heard, that; yes, sir. We got to the hospital, I guess, about that time and we did have our radio on.
Mr. BALL. When you went in the front door, who was with you?
Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz, Boyd, and I.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go?
Mr. SIMS. We went directly to the elevator.
Mr. BALL. Which elevator?
Mr. SIMS. The main passenger elevator.
Mr. BALL. It was a freight elevator, wasn't it?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I think the passenger elevator goes to about the third floor and then the freight elevator takes over.
Mr. BALL. You went up in the passenger elevator in the front of the building?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you went as far as it could go, did you?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you do then?
Mr. SIMS. Then, we caught the freight elevator.
Mr. BALL. That would be in another part of the building?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; I think it's on the north end of the building.
Mr. BALL. Did somebody direct you where to go to get the freight elevator?
Mr. SIMS. I believe--I'm not positive whether they did or not.
Mr. BALL. And where did you go from there?
Mr. SIMS. Well, we got off on the third floor and there were officers there, so we went all the way up and we started to the seventh floor, actually, and there was officers on every floor as we went up.
Mr. BALL. And where did you go first?
Mr. SIMS. Well, we stopped at the second floor, first.
Mr. BALL. Now, were you on the elevator at that time?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir--it was full of officers.
Mr. BALL. Do you know who some of the officers were?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; I don't know which ones I can remember, but Lieutenant Revill was there, I believe.
Mr. BALL. At 2:35, you mentioned two officers.
Mr. SIMS. Lieutenant Revill and Detective Westphal was over there with us.
Mr. BALL. Are they with homicide?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; they are with the special service bureau.
Mr. BALL. What is the special service bureau?
Mr. SIMS. Well, it's a combination of vice, narcotics, and undercover work.
Mr. BALL. Now, you got, you said, up to the third floor?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And where did you go then?
Mr. SIMS. Well, let's see, we got off--we stopped at the second floor and went to the third floor and some officer there had a key to a room and we made a hurried search of it and there was a bunch of officers on that floor and we went on to the fourth floor, and I don't know if we got off at the fourth or not, but anyway, we got off at the seventh floor each floor as we passed would have officers on it, and we hadn't been on the seventh floor very long--for just a while until someone hollered that they had found the hulls on the sixth floor, so we went back to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Someone on the seventh floor told you they had found the hulls?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; someone hollered from the sixth floor that the hulls had been found.
Mr. BALL. And you could hear them?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; you could hear them.
Mr. BALL. Did you go down the stairway?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; we went back down the elevator, as well as I remember.
Mr. BALL. And where did you go when you got off of the elevator?
Mr. SIMS. We may have had to climb the stairs from six to seven--I don't remember how high that elevator goes. I know we went back to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. And where did you go when you got off at the sixth floor?

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Mr. SIMS. We went over to the corner window there.
Mr. BALL. Which corner?
Mr. SIMS. It would be the one on Houston and Elm, that corner there--it would be the southeast corner.
Mr. BALL. It was the southeast corner?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And what did you see?
Mr. SIMS. We saw the boxes stacked up about--I don't know--three or four stacks high and found three empty hulls laying there next to the wall of the Elm Street side of the building, the front of the building.
Mr. BALL. Who was there when you saw them?
Mr. SIMS. Well, there was two or three officers was there when we got there, and I believe the officer that found them was still there. I have his name here someplace.
Mr. BALL. Was he a deputy sheriff?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, he was a deputy sheriff.
Mr. BALL. And who else--Luke Mooney?
Mr. SIMS. Yes--there was two or three officers there besides us--I don't know who all.
Mr. BALL. And did Luke tell you whether or not he had moved the hulls or not?
Mr. SIMS. He said he had left them like he had found them.
Mr. BALL. Did you take a picture of those hulls?
Mr. SIMS. Lieutenant Day did, I believe.
Mr. BALL. Was he there right at the time?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he didn't get there until a few minutes later.
Mr. BALL. Did you see the picture taken of the hulls?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You saw Day take the pictures, did you?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. He was the cameraman, was he?
Mr. SIMS. Well, there was another one there too. Actually, it was Detective Studebaker that works for him.
Mr. BALL. Studebaker and Day?
Mr. SIMS. I believe it was Studebaker.
Mr. BALL. Did they both have cameras?
Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if they both had cameras or not.
Mr. BALL. You saw one of them at least take a picture?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; I know pictures was being taken.
Mr. BALL. When the picture was taken, were the hulls in the same position as when you had first seen them?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; they were.
Mr. BALL. What else did you see that day?
Mr. SIMS. Well, someone then hollered--we started a search of the sixth floor then, going from east to west--all the officers, and someone had found the rifle over by the stairway.
Mr. BALL. That would be in what corner of the building?
Mr. SIMS. That would be in actually the northwest corner of the building.
Mr. BALL. And what happened then?
Mr. SIMS. Then, we went over to where the rifle was found.
Mr. BALL. Did you see the rifle?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; I saw the rifle.
Mr. BALL. Where was the rifle?
Mr. SIMS. It was laying there near a stairway, partially covered by some paper.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any pictures taken of that? Of the rifle at that location?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. Who took that picture?
Mr. SIMS. Well, it was either Studebaker or Lieutenant Day.
Mr. BALL. Who saw the picture taken---did you?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And then what did you do?
Mr. SIMS. Then we finished there and went--started to go to the city hall.

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Mr. BALL. You said you finished there, did you see anything of significance there besides these hulls and the rifle?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a paper bag?
Mr. SIMS. Well, we saw some wrappings--a brown wrapping there.
Mr. BALL. Where did you see it?
Mr. SIMS. It was there by the hulls.
Mr. BALL. Was it right there near the hulls?
Mr. SIMS. As well as I remember--of course, I didn't pay too much attention at that time, but it was, I believe, by the east side of where the boxes were piled up---that would be a guess--I believe that's where it was.
Mr. BALL. On the east side of where the boxes were would that be the east?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; it was right near the stack of boxes there. I know there was some loose paper there.
Mr. BALL. Was Johnson there?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; when the wrapper was found Captain Fritz stationed Montgomery to observe the scene there where the hulls were found.
Mr. BALL. To stay there?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. That was Marvin Johnson and L. D. Montgomery who stayed by the hulls?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; they did. I was going back and forth, from the wrapper to the hulls.
Mr. BALL. Was the window open in the southeast corner?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Were there any boxes near the window?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; there was enough room for someone to stand between the boxes and the window.
Mr. BALL. Were there any boxes anywhere near the window ledge?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; there was, I believe, I'm not positive about this, a couple of boxes, one stacked on the other right at the left of the window and then there was a stack of boxes directly behind the window about 3 or 4 feet high, I guess.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody take a picture of the boxes in the window--what position they were on the window ledge?
Mr. SIMS. Well, Lieutenant Day took a picture of all the surrounding area there.
Mr. BALL. How long were you on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. SIMS. Well, sir; let's see--at the time the hulls were found, I think the hulls were found about 1:15, so we were down there just a minute or two. Let's see we got back to the city hall at 2:15 and we went over and talked to Sheriff Decker 10 or 15 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Now, when you left, you say that Captain Fritz told Johnson and Montgomery to stay near the place where the hulls were located?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Was that after the picture had been taken of the hulls?
Mr. SIMS. I believe it was during--before Lieutenant Day got up there, I believe.
Mr. BALL. And it was after that that you went to the place where the rifle was found?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Then did you go back to the place where the hulls were located on the floor?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. That's when the picture was taken?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he was making pictures during that time.
Mr. BALL. Who picked up the hulls?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I assisted Lieutenant Day in picking the hulls up.
Mr. BALL. There were three hulls?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, what kind of a receptacle did you put them in?
Mr. SIMS. He had an envelope.

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Mr. BALL. Did he take charge of the hulls there?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know.
Mr. BALL. Did he take them in his possession, I mean?
Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if he took them in his possession then or not.
Mr. BALL. But you helped him pick them up?
Mr. SIMS. I picked them up from the floor and he had an envelope there and he held the envelope open.
Mr. BALL. You didn't take them in your possession, did you?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't believe I did.
Mr. BALL. When the rifle was found, were you there?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; we we still on the sixth floor where the hulls were, I believe.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone pick the rifle up off the floor?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I believe Lieutenant Day--he dusted the rifle there for fingerprints.
Mr. BALL. And did you see Fritz do anything?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he took it and ejected a live round of ammunition out of the rifle.
Mr. BALL. Do you know who took possession of that live round?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Now, you left the building about what time?
Mr. SIMS. Well, we arrived at the city hall around 2 o'clock--I'll have to look at the record---on this--about 2:15--we left there evidently about 2 o'clock.
Mr. BALL. You and who?
Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz and Boyd.
Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?
Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz went over and talked to Sheriff Decker. He sent word he wanted to talk to Captain Fritz, so we talked to the sheriff and then we went to the city hall.
Mr. BALL. Where was Decker when he said he wanted to talk to Fritz?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I didn't go inside the sheriff's office--I stayed out in the corridor there.
Mr. BALL. The sheriff's office is just a half a block from the Texas School Depository Building?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; it's across the street.
Mr. BALL. And the city hall where your office, the police offices are located, is how far from the corner of Elm and Houston?
Mr. SIMS. Well, that's the 500 block there and the city hall is, let's see, in the 2000 block, I believe, so it would be 15 blocks.
Mr. BALL. A couple of miles--a mile and a half?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know what it is.
Mr. BALL. When you went back to your offices, was Fritz there at that time?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he went back with Boyd and I.
Mr. BALL. After you left Decker's?
Mr. SIMS. He went back with Boyd and I.
Mr. BALL. What happened when you went back to your office?
Mr. SIMS. Well, sir; we got to the office and, of course, it was full of people and I think----
Mr. BALL. You say it was full of people?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You mean the floor was full of people?
Mr. SIMS. Our office was--I don't remember about the people.
Mr. BALL. What people?
Mr. SIMS. Officers--police officers, I don't know who all was up there, all I know is that there was a lot of people.
Mr. BALL. Had the press moved in and the television cameras at that time?
Mr. SIMS. I don't remember what time they had moved in--I don't remember.
Mr. BALL. Tell me what happened when you got back?
Mr. SIMS. Well, sir, I think he talked to a detective then--he's a lieutenant now--Captain Fritz talked to Baker and said, "While we was up in the Book Depository Store we heard Officer Tippit had been shot," and so Baker, I believe, told Captain Fritz that they had the man that had shot Officer Tippit, in the interrogation room.

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Mr. BALL. Who was that Baker?
Mr. SIMS. He was a detective then, but he's a lieutenant now. He has been in the office there for several years.
Mr. BALL. Baker told Fritz that Tippit had been shot?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; that we had heard that on the sixth floor of the Book Store, but he told Captain Fritz that the man that shot Officer Tippit was there in the interrogation room, or something to that effect.
Mr. BALL. What happened then?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know, let's see, we took Oswald at 2:20, Boyd and I, took Oswald from the interrogation room to Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. BALL. You and Boyd?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. At 2:20 took Oswald--that's the first time you saw Oswald?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; that's right, he was there in that interrogation room.
Mr. BALL. And who was in Fritz' office at that time?
Mr. SIMS. Well, let's see, during the interrogation, there was Mr. Bookhout, that's Jim Bookhout, and Mr. Hosty, and Boyd and I and Captain Fritz.
Mr. BALL. Did you make notes of what was said at that time?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did your partner, Boyd, make notes, do you think?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know if he did or not.
Mr. BALL. Do you have anything from which you can refresh your memory as to what was said in that interrogation?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. You have some memory of what was said, don't you?
Mr. SIMS. Well, not the exact wording or the exact questions.
Mr. BALL. Give us your memory of the substance of what was said there at that time.
Mr. SIMS. Well, I couldn't say that. I know that it consisted of his name and where he lived and things of that nature, and where he worked.
Mr. BALL. Now, tell us all you can remember, even though it is not complete, just tell us as much as you can remember?
Mr. SIMS. I don't remember--I know, like I say, he asked him his name and where he worked and things of that nature.
Mr. BALL. Did they ask him whether or not he had killed Tippit?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I believe he did.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. SIMS. He said, "No."
Mr. BALL. Did they ask him if he had shot the President?
Mr. SIMS. I don't remember now what--I wouldn't want to say for sure what questions he did ask him.
Mr. BALL. Who did the questioning?
Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz.
Mr. BALL. Did anyone else ask him questions?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know if they did or not.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him any questions?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Well----
Mr. SIMS. Not at this time here, I didn't but I talked to him later on that evening.
Mr. BALL. But you didn't ask him any questions at the time you were there then?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I never did actually do any interrogation myself then.
Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed at that time?
Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if he was or not.
Mr. BALL. Wasn't he handcuffed with his handcuffs behind his back, and didn't he ask to be more comfortable?
Mr. SIMS. I don't remember.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember any incident where Oswald said he would be more comfortable if he could get his hands from behind his back, or something of that sort?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

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Mr. BALL. Do you remember changing his handcuffs at any time so that he could put his hands in front of him.
Mr. SIMS. Of course, when he took the paraffin cast of his hands, he wasn't handcuffed?
Mr. BALL. But that was late that evening?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; it was around--it was after dark, I believe.
Mr. BALL. Now, I'm talking about--only about the interrogation that commenced about 2:20 in the afternoon of November 22.
Mr. SIMS. I just don't remember.
Mr. BALL. You don't remember changing the handcuffs?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. How long was he in Captain Fritz' office?
Mr. SIMS. Well, let's see, we first went in there at 2 and we stayed in there evidently--this says here that the Secret Service and the FBI took part in the interrogation of Oswald with Captain Fritz, and we took him down to the first showup at 4:05.
Mr. BALL. Then, would you say he was in Captain Fritz' office from about 2:20 until 4 o'clock?
Mr. SIMS. Well, he had to be either in Captain Fritz' office or the interrogation room--that's the only two places that he was kept.
Mr. BALL. All right, do you have any memory of how long he was in Captain Fritz' office the first time for the interrogation?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't recall if he stayed in there from 2:20 until showup time at 4:05 or not. He may have stayed in there all that time or he may have been put back in the interrogation room, which is right next door.
Mr. BALL. Where is the interrogation room from Captain Fritz' office?
Mr. SIMS. It's in the same office, but just a different room--there's just a hall separating them.
Mr. BALL. And in the interrogation room, were you with Oswald?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You and Boyd?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. When he was in the interrogation room for the first showup, did you ask him any questions?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; we talked to him.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you said to him?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't remember--it was just--I know I asked him his--later on I asked him about his life in Russia and about him being in the service and things of that nature.
Mr. BALL Did you ask him that at this time? Before the first showup at 4:05?
Mr. SIMS. I don't remember what time it was.
Mr. BALL. There was sometime then that you asked him about his life in Russia?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Are you able to tell us about what time that was?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I sure don't know what time it was.
Mr. BALL. Could it have been after he had been in Captain Fritz' office and and before the first showup?
Mr. SIMS. It was after he had been in Captain Fritz' office; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And it was in the interrogation room?
Mr. SIMS. I--well, I don't know--I have talked to him both places, and I don't know--I know he wouldn't talk at all about the assassination of the President or of Officer Tippit, but he would talk about his life in Russia and some things over here and about his family and things.
Mr. BALL. Now, you say he wouldn't talk about the assassination of the President, what do you mean?
Mr. SIMS. Well, he would just deny knowledge of it.
Mr. BALL. And you say he wouldn't talk about Officer Tippit's death, what do you mean by that; what would he say, if anything?
Mr. SIMS. Well, he would make some remark and he just wouldn't talk about it.

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Mr. BALL. Well, did he ever deny that he had anything to do with it?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. He did?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he ever make any admission to you that he had any knowledge of Officer Tippit's death?
Mr. SIMS. Not at all; no, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he ever make any admission to you that he had any knowledge of the shooting of the President at all?
Mr. SIMS. None at all.
Mr. BALL. When he did talk to you about his life in Russia, what did you say?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I would ask him where he lived and he told me.
Mr. BALL. What did he tell you?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I've forgotten the name of the town he said he lived in.
Mr. BALL. Irving, Tex.?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; in Russia.
Mr. BALL. Oh, in Russia--I see---what did he say?
Mr. SIMS. Well, it was some town I didn't know about it, but he did say he lived in Moscow, I believe it was.
Mr. BALL. Anything else?
Mr. SIMS. Well, he said he worked in a factory and he liked everything over there except the weather.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything else he said?
Mr. SIMS. Well, no, sir; we talked about--just a general discussion about the cars over there and the appliances, and just talked to him about it.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you about his wife?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. SIMS. I don't remember what he said about his wife--he wouldn't talk about her much.
Mr. BALL. Or his children?
Mr. SIMS. He said he had some children; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he say anything else except he had some children?
Mr. SIMS. I believe he said he had--I don't know if he told me he had a brother or not.
Mr. BALL There was one time there that you learned that he had a room at 1026 North Beckley--when did you learn that?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know when that was, now, that was found out that first day, I believe. Another officer went out and searched his room and also went to Irving, I believe.
Mr. BALL. The officers went out and searched the room sometime that afternoon, around 3:30.
Mr. SIMS. That's right, I believe so.
Mr. BALL. Can you tell me whether or not you are the one that found out he had a room at 1026 North Beckley?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. He didn't tell you that?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't believe he did.
Mr. BALL. All right. Did he tell you that his wife lived in Irving, Tex.?
Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if he told me that or not.
Mr. BALL. Now, the first showup was at what time?
Mr. SIMS. At 4:05.
Mr. BALL. How did you conduct that showup?
Mr. SIMS. Well, we took Oswald down with us with the two police officers.
Mr. BALL. What two police officers?
Mr. SIMS. Clark and Perry.
Mr. BALL. You say you took him down--where was he when you took him down?
Mr. SIMS. He was in our office, Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. BALL. That would be on the second floor?
Mr. SIMS. Third floor.
Mr. BALL. On the third floor?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

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Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir
Mr. BALL. And where did you take him?
Mr. SIMS. Well, we walked out of our door and turned left, and you go a few feet and go to the elevator--where the waiting room for the elevator is--it's a locked door, and then go from there to the basement of the city hall and then go from the elevator there to the holdover room next to the stage, the showup stage.
Mr. BALL. You have a special place for showups, do you?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And would you describe it?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; in front of it is the detail room, where the officers get their assignments every day before they go out in the squads, and the platform is a raised platform--I guess it's 2 or 2 1/2 or 3 feet raised above the floor and it has got a black--some type of a cloth screen with floodlights at the top and down at the bottom.
Mr. BALL. Is it a cloth screen between the----
Mr. SIMS. Between the suspects and the witnesses we have.
Mr. BALL. The stage and the outer part of the room?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Are there seats in the room?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What kind of seats?
Mr. SIMS. They are just a regular chair--with a long desk, something like this here.
Mr. BALL. You say you took Oswald down with a couple of the officers?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; two of the officers went with us--Perry and Clark.
Mr. BALL. And they are Dallas Police Department officers, are they?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And why did you have to have them come down with you?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know why they did.
Mr. BALL. Who instructed them to go with you?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know that. I know they said they were there for the showup so we went with them.
Mr. BALL. During the showup, were they part of the showup?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; they participated in the showup; they were with Oswald and this jailer.
Mr. BALL. How were they dressed?
Mr. SIMS. I believe one of them pulled his coat off, and I don't know how they were dressed, but one of them pulled his coat off I know.
Mr. BALL. Were they handcuffed?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. They were handcuffed together?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; all of them was handcuffed.
Mr. BALL. Now, there were four of them altogether?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. In the showup?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What were their names?
Mr. SIMS. They were well, it would be Clark and Perry and Oswald.
Mr. BALL. Give their full names, if you will.
Mr. SIMS. All right.
Mr. BALL. And what their position is with the Dallas Police Department.
Mr. SIMS. No. 1 was Bill Perry, W. E. Perry, he was No. 1, with the Dallas Police Department, and No. 2 was Lee Harvey Oswald, and No. 3 was R. L. Clark with the Dallas Police Department, and No. 4 was Don Ables, who is a civilian jail clerk.
Mr. BALL. And who selected Don Ables to be in the showup?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know who selected him.
Mr. BALL. Does he have his office in the jail?
Mr. SIMS. Well, yes, sir; the jail office he works in there.
Mr. BALL. Can you give me just a general description of what these fellows look like?

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Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; W. E. Perry, he is 34 years of age, 5'10 1/2" and about 170, I believe and that's a guess, now. He has brown hair, blue eyes, and dark complexion. Richard L. Clark is 31, 5'9 3/4", 170, has blond hair, blue eyes, and ruddy complexion.
Now, these weights could be different now--I don't know. Don Ables is 26, 5'9", 165, and brown hair.
Mr. BALL. What kind of complexion does Don Ables have?
Mr. SIMS. I don't have that here--I believe he's just ruddy complexion, I believe.
Mr. BALL. Now, in the showup, where were you, on the stage or in the audience?
Mr. SIMS. I was on the stage.
Mr. BALL. And did you hear anything that was said from the audience part of the showup?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you hear?
Mr. SIMS. Well, someone was asking each one in the showup a few questions.
Mr. BALL. Do you know who that was that asked the questions in the first showup?
Mr. SIMS. I'm not positive, but I believe it was Detective Leavelle in our office conducted the first showup.
Mr. BALL. And what questions did they ask?
Mr. SIMS. I couldn't say the exact questions, but as a rule, his age and address and where he went to school and where he was born and just a few questions like that, just to have them say a few words.
Mr. BALL. Did Leavelle ask all of the questions?
Mr. SIMS. He asked all four of the men in the showup.
Mr. BALL. How did Oswald act at this showup; tell me what he did and what he said?
Mr. Well, he just acted more or less like the other--acted natural.
Mr. BALL. Answered the questions?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he protest any?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he say that he had a T-shirt on and no one else had a T-shirt on?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; now, I think the showup that I didn't conduct the next day, I believe he refused to answer questions or said something about a T-shirt or something.
Mr. BALL He didn't say anything of that sort?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he acted normal, with the other showups I was in.
Mr. BALL. He answered the questions?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything else from the audience side of the showup?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of any witnesses that were out there?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't know who was out there.
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any of the witnesses that were out there?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Either before or after the showup, did you talk to any of the witnesses out there?
Mr. SIMS. I don't believe I did--I don't believe so.
Mr. BALL. Did you take any statements from any of the witnesses in this showup?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. After this showup, what did you do?
Mr. SIMS. We brought Oswald back to the office there.
Mr. BALL. To the interrogation room?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; back to Captain Fritz' office at 4:20.
Mr. BALL. At 4:20?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Who was present in Captain Fritz' office at that time?

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Mr. SIMS. The FBI agents and Secret Service agents talked to Oswald some more.
Mr. BALL. What were their names?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know their names.
Mr. BALL. You didn't record the names of the Secret Service officers?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, do you remember how long this interrogation of Oswald took place?
Mr. SIMS. Well, sir, we took him back to the second showup at 6:20, so that would be a matter of 2 hours. Now, whether he was in Captain Fritz' office all this time or in the interrogation room some of the time or Captain Fritz' office all the time, I don't remember.
Mr. BALL. Now, at this second interrogation at Captain Fritz' office beginning at 4:20, was Oswald handcuffed?
Mr. SIMS. Well, now, I can't tell you--I don't remember if he were handcuffed or not.
Mr. BALL. Did you make any notes of what was said at that time?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I never did make any notes of any of the interrogation.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything that was said at 4:20?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I couldn't.
Mr. BALL. Do you have any memory at all?
Mr. SIMS. No.
Mr. BALL. Could you make any kind of an attempt to testify to what you heard there?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I couldn't say for sure what was said or what he told Captain Fritz or the agents either.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask any questions?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; the only time I would talk to him would be when Captain Fritz would be out of the office and then Boyd and I, or whoever was in the office with him would talk to him.
Mr. BALL. But at this time when the Secret Service and the FBI were in Captain Fritz' office, did you ask any questions at that time?
Mr. SIMS. No.
Mr. BALL. Did anyone--any Secret Service man or any FBI man ask him questions at that time?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; they asked him questions.
Mr. BALL. Did you know those men?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I know a good many of them here--I didn't have their names--I don't remember who it was.
Mr. BALL. You don't remember who was in there at the time?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, at 6:20 there was another showup, was there?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And where was Oswald before you took him to that showup?
Mr. SIMS. He would be there in Captain Fritz' office there in the city hall.
Mr. BALL. And you took him where?
Mr. SIMS. Back down to the same stage--on the stage there.
Mr. BALL. Who was in this second showup?
Mr. SIMS. The same officers and the jail clerk that was with him on the first one.
Mr. BALL. Mention their names again.
Mr. SIMS. All right, the second showup was at 6:20, approximately, and there was W. E. Perry, police officer, Richard Clark, police department, and Don Ables, jail civilian clerk.
Mr. BALL. Were these men handcuffed at this time?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; they were handcuffed.
Mr. BALL. Were they dressed the same?
Mr. SIMS. I believe so; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Were they dressed differently than Oswald?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; I know they didn't have the color of clothes on or things like that.
Mr. BALL. Did they have ties on?

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Mr. SIMS. I don't recall if they did or not.
Mr. BALL. Oswald had a T-shirt on, didn't he?
Mr. SIMS. He had on a brown shirt, some kind of a brown shirt, and he had a white T-shirt on underneath that.
Mr. BALL. Underneath that?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; underneath that.
Mr. BALL. His clothes were rougher looking than the other men?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't imagine that he would be dressed as nice as the officers were, as far as their clothes.
Mr. BALL. Well, the other three men that were in the showup, did they have coats on--did anyone have a coat on?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't believe Mr. Ables--I'm pretty sure he didn't have a coat on and don't believe any of the officers had them on--I don't remember how they was dressed as far as their coats go.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not they had ties on?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Who conducted the showup?
Mr. SIMS. Well, the second showup, I'm not positive, but I believe I conducted the second showup.
Mr. BALL. How did you conduct it?
Mr. SIMS. Well, they are all under a number and I would have them---one, two, three, and four, and No. 1 stand on that center black square there and give their names and age and address and if they own a car, where they went to school, where they were born, where they were raised.
Mr. BALL. Did you know who was out in the audience with the witnesses?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of any of the witnesses?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear any conversation that came from the audience side of the showup?
Mr. SIMS. None that I can recall.
Mr. BALL. Now, did you give us in your first showup the numbers assigned to these people?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Nos. 1, 2, 3, and 4?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. All right.
Mr. SIMS. I'm sure I did.
Mr. BALL. Well, I wasn't sure you did, but give us the numbers assigned to the second showup.
Mr. SIMS. The first showup at 4:05 was No. 1, Bill Perry, Lee Oswald, R. L. Clark, and Don Ables.
Mr. BALL. That was the order---one, two, three, four?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; one, two, three, four.
Mr. BALL. Now, give us the order of the second showup?
Mr. SIMS. Numbered the same for the second showup.
Mr. BALL. The same numbers?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. The same men?
Mr. SIMS. Same men and same numbers.
Mr. BALL. After that showup, what did you do?
Mr. SIMS. We went back to Captain Fritz' office, and let me see, at 6:37, we left the showup and went back to Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. BALL. And what did you do then?
Mr. SIMS. We stayed with Oswald.
Mr. BALL. Now, in your report, you mentioned that a murder complaint was signed by Fritz that evening?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Were you present when that happened?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Was Oswald present also?

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Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. He was present when the murder complaint was signed?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where did this take place?
Mr. SIMS. In Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. BALL. And who was present?
Mr. SIMS. Well, let me see Justice of the Peace Dave Johnston, and Assistant District Attorney Bill Alexander, and I don't know who else was there--I don't know who else was present.
Mr. BALL. Was the judge there--the justice judge--the J.P., Dave Johnston?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And Bill Alexander and Fritz?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And you? And Boyd?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And Oswald was there?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was anything said to Oswald about the signing of a murder complaint?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What was said, and who said it?
Mr. SIMS. I don't remember what was said--I know Judge Johnston talked to him and Captain Fritz talked to him.
Mr. BALL. And did Alexander talk to him?
Mr. SIMS. I believe he did, but I'm not positive about that.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Judge Johnston said?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Oswald said?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did anyone tell him that a murder complaint was being filed against him?
Mr. SIMS. I believe so; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. For what murder?
Mr. SIMS. For Officer Tippit.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Oswald said?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Then what did you do with Oswald after that?
Mr. SIMS. At 7:40 we entered the third showup.
Mr. BALL. Now, at 7:30 an FBI agent came in, didn't he, according to your records?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; at 7:30--we sat in the office with Oswald and Mr. Clements of the FBI came in and interrogated Oswald.
Mr. BALL. You and Boyd were there?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did Clements ask him?
Mr. SIMS. I don't remember the questions he asked him.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear what Oswald said?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; but I don't remember what the answers were.
Mr. BALL. Then, when was the next showup?
Mr. SIMS. At 7:40.
Mr. BALL. And who were the men in the third showup?
Mr. SIMS. Well, the third showup was No. 1--a Richard Walker [spelling] B-o-r-c-h-g-a-r-d-t.
Mr. BALL. Borchgardt--what is his address; do you have that?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't have his address. He was a city prisoner.
Mr. BALL. Do you know what he was charged with at that time?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir--I have his arrest number and his I.D. number.
Mr. BALL. And then was he No. 1?
Mr. SIMS. No. 1---
Mr. BALL. And who else?
Mr. SIMS. No. 2 was Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. BALL. Who was there?

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Mr. SIMS. Ellis Carl Brazel.
Mr. BALL. Who was he?
Mr. SIMS. He was a city prisoner.
Mr. BALL. Do you know what he was charged with?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Do you know his address?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you know what happened to him?
Mr. SIMS. I believe he's in the penitentiary.
Mr. BALL. Brazel is in the penitentiary?
Mr. SIMS. I believe so--I'm not positive.
Mr. BALL. Who was No. 4?
Mr. SIMS. No. 4 was Don Ables.
Mr. BALL. That's the jail clerk?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember how these men were dressed?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't, I don't remember how they were dressed.
Mr. BALL. Did they have coats on?
Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if they had coats on or not.
Mr. BALL. Were they all handcuffed?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Together?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who conducted this showup?
Mr. SIMS. I don't remember who actually had the suspects to talk or who was out in front.
Mr. BALL. You were on the stage side?
Mr. SIMS. Still on the stage side; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And did someone from the audience side conduct the showup and ask the questions?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did Oswald answer the questions?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Was he dressed differently than the other three at that time?
Mr. SIMS. Well, he was dressed differently but I don't know--how differently he was dressed.
Mr. BALL. What did he have on?
Mr. SIMS. He still had on the same clothes he was arrested in, so far as I know.
Mr. BALL. In all three showups he had on the same clothes you described before?
Mr. SIMS. I believe he did.
Mr. BALL. Here is Commission No. 150, is that the shirt he had on?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; that's the color shirt he had on.
Mr. BALL. And then he had on a T-shirt?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Is that the shirt he had on?
Mr. SIMS. Well---one that color--yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, in this showup, did you know any of the witnesses that were in the audience side?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I knew about them, but I didn't know who was out there no, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to them?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever take a witness' statement from any of the witnesses at either of the three showups?
Mr. SIMS. Never did----
Mr. BALL. After that showup, what did you do?
Mr. SIMS. Well, we took him back up to Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. BALL. About what time was this?
Mr. SIMS. 7:55.
Mr. BALL. And who was there at that time?

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Mr. SIMS. Mr. Clements, and he continued his interrogation of Oswald for about another half hour.
Mr. BALL. And were you present?
Mr. SIMS. I probably was; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who was present besides you?
Mr. SIMS. I couldn't say--I know Boyd was and I was present, but I don't know if he was in there all the time or not.
Mr. BALL. Now, during this time, or sometime during this period--sometime between these three showups, you searched Oswald, didn't you?
Mr. SIMS. The first one; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And that was what time?
Mr. SIMS. It was 4:05, I believe, but I will have to check my record here and see [checking his record referred to].
Mr. BALL. That was after the second showup?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; the first one.
Mr. BALL. After the first showup?
Mr. SIMS. It was before the first showup.
Mr. BALL. It was before the first showup--the 4:05?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And that was after the first interrogation?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And where were you when you first searched him?
Mr. SIMS. We was in the holdover, in other words, the showup room.
Mr. BALL. When you took Oswald down for the first showup and waited in the room outside, the showup room, you searched him?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; Boyd and I.
Mr. BALL What did you find?
Mr. SIMS. I found a bus transfer slip in his shirt pocket.
Mr. BALL. And what else?
Mr. SIMS. Well, Boyd found some .38 cartridges in his pocket.
Mr. BALL. How many?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know--I have it here ---I believe it's five rounds of .38 caliber pistol shells in his left front pocket.
Mr. BALL. Left-front shirt pocket?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; they were in his pants pocket.
Mr. BALL. Left front?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where was the transfer?
Mr. SIMS. The transfer was in his shirt pocket.
Mr. BALL. Would that be on the left side, I suppose?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know if he's got two pockets or not.
Mr. BALL. Let's take a look at it.
Mr. SIMS. (Examined Exhibit hereinafter referred to).
Mr. BALL. Commission Exhibit 150 is being exhibited for the witness' examination.
Mr. SIMS. Well, he's got two pockets in here and let's see if I have it on here--what pocket it was--I didn't say--I don't remember what pocket he had that in.
Mr. BALL. What did you do with the transfer?
Mr. SIMS. I went back up to the office and I believe initialed it and placed it in an envelope for identification.
Mr. BALL. Who did you turn it over to?
Mr. SIMS. I don't remember.
Mr. BALL. You don't remember?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; it was either in the lieutenant's desk or Captain Fritz' desk.
Mr. BALL. Lieutenant who?
Mr. SIMS. We have two in there---Lieutenant Wells and Lieutenant Bohart.
Mr. BALL. And what about the five rounds of live ammunition, what did you do with those?
Mr. SIMS. It was also placed in the envelope.
Mr. BALL. And turned over to whom--Fritz?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know who that was turned over to.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to a busdriver named McWatters?

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Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I remember a busdriver coming up there but I don't think I talked with him.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever examine the transfer for the punchmark date?
Mr. SIMS. The busdriver did. He identified that as coming from his punch-card.
Mr. BALL. I know, but I want to know about you--did you look at the transfer?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I looked at it.
Mr. BALL. Did you look at the date and the time that it was punched on the transfer?
Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if I did or not. I'm sure I looked at it but I don't remember.
Mr. BALL. You say it was shown to a busdriver and he made some remarks about it; were you there when it was shown to the busdriver?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. So, you are just telling me what some other officer told you?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. All right.
Mr. SIMS. I didn't see actually the busdriver, I don't believe, identify his transfer.
Mr. BALL. Do you know the officer that showed the transfer to the busdriver?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any identification bracelet on Oswald?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he had an identification bracelet.
Mr. BALL. Did he have that on at the time of the showup?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever remove that?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; when they were getting his paraffin cast on his hands.
Mr. BALL. And what did you do with that identification bracelet?
Mr. SIMS. I placed it in the property room cardsheet.
Mr. BALL. Did you examine that identification bracelet?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did it have on it, if you remember?
Mr. SIMS. It had his name on it.
Mr. BALL. And what was it made out of? What material?
Mr. SIMS. It was, I guess, sterling silver. It was a regular G.I. identification bracelet with a chain and then his nameplate across the top.
Mr. BALL. Now, we are up to the time after the last showup when Mr. Clements interrogated Oswald for about half an hour; what happened after the interrogation by Mr. Clements?
Mr. SIMS. At 8:55 Detective Johnny Hicks and R. L. Studebaker of the crime lab came to Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. BALL. What did they do?
Mr. SIMS. Hicks fingerprinted Oswald and then Sgt. Pete Barnes came in.
Mr. BALL. What is his name?
Mr. SIMS. Pete Barnes. He is working with the crime lab also.
Mr. BALL.. And what did Barnes do?
Mr. SIMS. Well, he may have assisted in the fingerprinting--I don't know for sure.
Mr. BALL. Is he a crime lab man also?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir, and then shortly later, Capt. George Doughty came in, he's in charge of the crime lab.
Mr. BALL. And what did he do?
Mr. SIMS. He just stayed a few minutes.
Mr. BALL. How do you spell his name?
Mr. SIMS. (spelling). D-o-u-g-h-t-y--George Doughty.
Mr. BALL. Now, did they make paraffin tests?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. They made casts at that time?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Of what?

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Mr. SIMS. (reading from instrument in his possession). "He and Barnes made paraffin casts of both hands and also the right side of his face."
Mr. BALL. That "he and Barnes"--who is "he"?
Mr. SIMS. That would be Johnny Hicks, I think.
Mr. BALL. That was Johnny Hicks and Lieutenant Barnes?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; and Barnes is a sergeant.
Mr. BALL. Sergeant Barnes and Johnny Hicks made the paraffin casts?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Of both hands and what side of his face?
Mr. SIMS. And also the right side of his face.
Mr. BALL. Of whose face?
Mr. SIMS. Oswald's face.
Mr. BALL. Were you there when they were made?
Mr. SIMS. I was in the room--most of the time I was.
Mr. BALL. What time were these paraffin casts made?
Mr. SIMS. We started the fingerprinting at 8:55, I believe, they lasted a good long while I don't know how long.
Mr. BALL. What time were the paraffin casts made?
Mr. SIMS. I don't have any idea--it was sometime after 8:55.
Mr. BALL. Can you give me an outside limit on it?
Mr. SIMS. Well, sir, they started the fingerprinting at 8:55, I guess--that would take just a rough guess, 10 or 15 minutes to do that, and they had to heat their wax first and make the preparations then for the paraffin tests.
Mr. BALL. Would you say that the paraffin tests were made not later than 10 o'clock that day?
Mr. SIMS. Not later than 10?
Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I couldn't say. I know that they were in the office there all this time making these paraffin casts of his hands and his face.
Mr. BALL. Then what happened?
Mr. SIMS. Well, at 11:30 p.m. Barratt and I made out the arrest sheets on Oswald.
Mr. BALL. Where was Oswald then?
Mr. SIMS. He was there and he was still in the office there.
Mr. BALL. Did you make the arrest sheets out in front of him while he was there in the office?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know if he was present when we did it or not.
Mr. BALL. But he was still in the interrogation room of Captain Fritz' office?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he was in one or the other; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who had charge of him when you made out the arrest sheets?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know who that would be.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?
Mr. SIMS. We made out the arrest sheets on Oswald and shortly afterwards Chief Curry and Captain Fritz came into the office there, came back to the office, and told us to take Oswald down out in front of the stage at the showup room.
Mr. BALL. Why did you do that?
Mr. SIMS. Because we were told to.
Mr. BALL. Was that usual to do that?
Mr. SIMS. Is it usual?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. SIMS. Yes; it's unusual.
Mr. BALL. Unusual to do it?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. He didn't tell you why he did it?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you do it for?
Mr. SIMS. Just for the press, I believe.
Mr. SIMS. For the press?
Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SIMS. What did you do?
Mr. BALL. We--shortly before midnight--we took him down to the--they

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call it--it's where the officers meet there, where the showup room is--the assembly room.
Mr. BALL. And was he on the stage?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where was he?
Mr. SIMS. He was in front of the stage.
Mr. BALL. And--in front of the stage?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And what happened?
Mr. SIMS. Well, he had--the room was full of newspapermen.
Mr. BALL. And what did they do?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I believe they had a little short interview there with him.
Mr. BALL. Did they ask him questions?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did he answer?
Mr. SIMS. He answered; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Were the television cameras in there also?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And this was about what time?
Mr. SIMS. Well, it would be about 12--we kept him in there about 5 minutes and went to the jail office about 12:20, so that would have been about, I guess, about 12:15.
Mr. BALL. Tell me exactly what Chief Curry told you before you took him down there--what were his exact instructions?
Mr. SIMS. I don't believe Chief Curry said anything to me.
Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz told you to take him down there?
Mr. SIMS. We were told to take him down to the press--to the police assembly room.
Mr. BALL. Who gave you those specific orders?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I couldn't say who gave me those specific orders.
Mr. BALL. Do you think it was Fritz?
Mr. SIMS. I just don't remember who it was.
Mr. BALL. You have stated in your notes that Chief Curry came to Fritz' office and told you to take Oswald down in front of the stage at the showup room?
Mr. SIMS. Let's see (reading from instrument in his possession) "* * * shortly afterwards Chief Curry and Captain Fritz came to Captain Fritz' office and told us to take Oswald down out in front of the stage at the showup room."
Mr. BALL. Does that look like it was Curry that told you that?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know which one of them told us.
Mr. BALL. Did one of the two tell you?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; evidently they did.
Mr. BALL. And what else did they tell you?
Mr. SIMS. (Reading from instrument in his hand.) "Chief Curry gave us instructions not to let anyone touch Oswald, and if they attempted to do so, for us to take him to jail immediately."
Mr. BALL. This was in connection with the press interview with Oswald, wasn't it?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what questions were asked Oswald?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL Did they ask him whether or not he had shot the President?
Mr. SIMS. I believe that was asked--yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he tell them?
Mr. SIMS. He told them "no."
Mr. BALL. Did they ask him if he had killed Tippit or shot Tippit?
Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if they did or not--it was just a bunch of them hollering at him--that's all I remember.
Mr. BALL. A bunch of them doing what?
Mr. SIMS. A bunch of them hollering at him--talking to him.
Mr. BALL. Were they talking loud?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; it was pretty noisy.

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Mr. BALL. Now, you took him back to the jail office at 12:20?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; we took him back to the jail office at 12:20 a.m. on November the 23d.
Mr. BALL. And you turned him over to the jailer?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; we took him up to the fourth floor.
Mr. BALL. And what did you do then?
Mr. SIMS. We turned him over to the jailers there.
Mr. BALL. You turned him over to the jailers on the fourth floor?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, the next day, did you see him?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work?
Mr. SIMS. Well, let's see, I arrived for work at 9:30 a.m.
Mr. BALL. And when did you first see Oswald?
Mr. SIMS. We checked at 10:25 a.m.--we checked--Boyd and I checked Lee Harvey Oswald out of jail and brought him to Captain Fritz' office for questioning.
Mr. BALL. Who was present at that time?
Mr. SIMS. Let's see, Mr. Bookhout of the FBI and Robert Nash who is the U.S. marshal, Mr. Kelley of the Secret Service.
Mr. BALL. And who else?
Mr. SIMS. And that was all.
Mr. BALL. And yourself?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I believe it says here "Boyd and Hall stayed in the office during the interrogation."
Mr. BALL. You weren't in there?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you know why you left--did you have something else to do?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't know if I was called out or what.
Mr. BALL. And how long did that interrogation take?
Mr. SIMS. We returned him back to the jail at 11:30 a.m.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?
Mr. SIMS. Then, shortly afterward, myself and Boyd and Hall and Detective C. N. Dhority, (spelling) D-h-o-r-i-t-y--we went to Oswald's room at 1026 North Beckley.
Mr. BALL. Who told you to do that?
Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz.
Mr. BALL. And what did you do out there?
Mr. SIMS. We made another search of his room.
Mr. BALL. What do you mean by "search"--did you have a search warrant?
Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if we had a search warrant or not.
Mr. BALL. You went in the house, did you?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; we went in the house.
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to the owner, Mrs. Johnson?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; we talked to him.
Mr. BALL. Mr. or Mrs.--which one?
Mr. SIMS. I believe both of them was there; I'm not positive about that.
Mr. BALL. And you went into Oswald's room, didn't you?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And what did you see?
Mr. SIMS. I think all we found in there was a paper clip or something of that nature. I don't remember what it was.
Mr. BALL. A paper clip?
Mr. SIMS. We didn't find anything.
Mr. BALL. Did you take anything away with you?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we took the paper clip and a rubber band or something--I don't know what it was--it wasn't anything to speak of, I know, the room was clean.
Mr. BALL. What time did you arrive and what time did you leave?
Mr. SIMS. Well, shortly after 11:30 we left--we arrived at 11:59 and left at 12:30.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

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Mr. SIMS. Well----
Mr. BALL. In the afternoon, did you work on this case? On the Oswald case?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; I'm sure we did.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you did?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any witnesses?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't talk to any.
Mr. BALL. Did you take any statements?
Mr. SIMS. No.
Mr. BALL. When was the next time you saw Oswald?
Mr. SIMS. At 6 o'clock.
Mr. BALL. What did you do then?
Mr. SIMS. We brought him back to Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. BALL. Who are "we"?
Mr. SIMS. Myself, M. G. Hall, and Detective L. C. Graves.
Mr. BALL. Where was Boyd when you did that?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know.
Mr. BALL. He wasn't with you at that time?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where did you get Oswald?
Mr. SIMS.. From the jail.
Mr. BALL. You took him to Fritz' office?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there?
Mr. SIMS. We returned him at--myself, Hall, and Graves--returned him at 7 :15 to the jail.
Mr. BALL. Now, were you in Captain Fritz' office during that interrogation?
Mr. SIMS. No; I don't believe I was.
Mr. BALL. Do you know what you did after that?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't know what I did after that.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Oswald again?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I never did see him again.
Mr. BALL. Were you on duty on the 24th?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I was off that day.
Mr. BALL. And you heard of Oswald's death over the radio; is that right?
Mr. SIMS. Over the television.
Mr. BALL. You watched it over television, did you?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you fellows have any suggestions for questions--you might go ahead and ask him any questions if you have any?
Mr. STERN. Yes; I have a few things I would like to ask him with reference to this--I'm not sure that we identified his notes and I believe we ought to do that.
You were reading from or referring to a memorandum that you made when, Mr. Sims?
Mr. SIMS. In regards to the President's assassination and the killing of Officer Tippit.
Mr. STERN. When did you make the memorandum?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know--it was shortly after the 24th.
Mr. STERN. Within 3 or 4 days?
Mr. SIMS. The same week--yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. And you made it with your partner, Officer Boyd, the two of you?
Mr. SIMS. Yes sir.
Mr. STERN. You worked it out together?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Let the record show that this is a memorandum that appears as Commission Document 81-B, at pages 234 through 240. Was this memorandum made from notes that you noted at various times as the things occurred?
Mr. SIMS. Notes and memory.
Mr. STERN. They were made from your notes and memory?
Mr. SIMS. From my notes and memory.

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Mr. STERN. And those notes were destroyed when the memorandum was prepared?
Mr. SIMS. Mr. Boyd may have his--I don't have mine.
Mr. STERN. You don't have your notes?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't have mine.
Mr. STERN. The memorandum quotes a number of times--a very specific figure---is this because you had some record of these times?
Mr. SIMS. We keep records of the time that things happen.
Mr. STERN. To the nearest minutes?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. STERN. And that's why you can be so precise in your memorandum?
Mr. SIMS. That's right.
Mr. STERN. The information you gave us a little earlier describing the two police and the jail clerk that were in the first two lineups, your statement there was based upon notes that you brought here with you; is that right?
Mr. SIMS. You mean their descriptions?
Mr. STERN. Yes; their descriptions.
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I got the descriptions after I was notified to be over here.
Mr. STERN. Do you know these individuals?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; I know them.
Mr. STERN. And these descriptions are accurate?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know about the weight. I got this off of their descriptions we have up there in the ID bureau in the personnel file--that weight, I believe, Perry's--I just guessed at the weight.
Mr. STERN. Do you have the same descriptions available for the two city prisoners?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I have those.
Mr. STERN. Would you tell us what those are?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. Richard Walter Borchgardt, he is 23 years of age, 5' 9", 161 pounds, blue eyes, blond hair, and ruddy complexion.
Ellis Carl Brazel [spelling] B-r-a-z-e-1, he"s 22 years of age, 5' 10", 169 pounds. Now, this weight could be one way or the other because this was at the time that they were arrested when they got this description.
Mr. STERN. This information was obtained from police records?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. He has green eyes, blond hair, and ruddy complexion.
Mr. STERN. As far as you now remember, does it accurately describe the two?
Mr. SIMS. I couldn't say. I know it was what we had in our identification jacket--these are their descriptions.
Mr. STERN. But you have no independent recollection now of their description?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. STERN. At page 3 of your memorandum, in describing events at the School Book Depository, the memorandum states, and this occurred just after Lieutenant Day picked up the rifle and dusted it for fingerprints the memorandum states: "Some man then called Captain Fritz, and he walked over to where the man was. This man gave Captain Fritz the name of Lee Harvey Oswald and his home address in Irving, Tex."
Would you give me something more about that--how Oswald's name came up and in what context the name was given?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; this man, I believe, was some supervisor there at the store, and he gave Captain Fritz Oswald's name and address.
Mr. STERN. Do you know why he gave it to him? In what connection he gave it to him?
Mr. STERN. I'm not positive about this, but I believe that Oswald was missing.
Mr. STERN. I see.
Mr. SIMS. In other words, most of the employees returned back to their jobs after the assassination.
Mr. STERN. Do you know whether any other employees were missing?
Mr. SIMS. No; I don't.
Mr. STERN. But as far as you know, that was the only name mentioned? Mentioned by the supervisor at the Book Depository?
Mr. SIMS. As far as I know; yes.

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Mr. STERN. Now, the search in which you participated of Oswald at 4:05 on Friday, just before the first showup---you have told us that either you or Mr. Boyd found five live rounds of .38 caliber pistol shells, and a bus transfer slip, and an identification bracelet, according to your memorandum--Oswald took his ring off and gave it to you?
Mr. SIMS. That's right.
Mr. STERN. Do you recall that?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Do you remember anything else that was found on Oswald at that time?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't remember anything else.
Mr. STERN. A wallet or identification card?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; that had been taken off of him.
Mr. STERN. That had been taken off of him upon his arrest at the time of his arrest?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know when, but he didn't have it on.
Mr. STERN. Did you say anything to him at that time about the ownership of these things, about the ownership of the pistol shells---cartridges--did you comment on that?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. STERN. Did he say anything about it?
Mr. STERN. No, sir; there was no comment at all.
Mr. STERN. Or on the bus transfer slip?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he was asked something about it--I don't remember what I asked or what he said.
Mr. STERN. Mr. Sims, what was your impression of Oswald during Friday and Saturday, what kind of man did he seem to you--what was his demeanor like, what impression did you get about him and the way he was conducting himself?
Mr. SIMS. Well, he conducted himself, I believe, better than anyone I have ever seen during interrogation. He was calm and wasn't nervous.
Mr. STERN. He knew what questions he wanted to answer and what questions he didn't?
Mr. SIMS. He had the answers ready when you got through with the questions.
Mr. STERN. Did he complain at any point about his treatment during the course of the day?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I asked him if he wanted a cigarette, and I asked him if he wanted a drink of water or to go to the rest room and things of that nature, and I don't believe he ever accepted any of them.
Mr. STERN. But he was never complaining about his treatment?
Mr. SIMS. Oh, he complained two or three times---I don't know what it was about--about not having a lawyer or something. He said he wanted a lawyer, and things of that nature.
Mr. STERN. But not about his physical treatment?
Mr. SIMS. No; I believe he told us that--he was talking about his eye, and he told us that he deserved to get hit in the eye--I believe he said he deserved being hit in the eye.
Mr. STERN. Why was that?
Mr. SIMS. Because the officer had a right to do that--I believe that's what he told us.
Mr. STERN. What about obtaining a lawyer, what did he say about that?
Mr. SIMS. He said he wanted to obtain a lawyer. He named some lawyer up in New York.
Mr. STERN. He said that to you or to Captain Fritz in your presence?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I heard it--I don't know whether he said it to me-- whether he told it to Captain Fritz or he may have told it to me.
Mr. STERN. What was the response from the police officer in charge at any time he mentioned getting a lawyer?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know what it was. I believe he used the telephone.
Mr. STERN. Did he seem tired to you in the course of the interrogations? Or showups?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

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Mr. STERN. By the time of your last contact with him, a little after 12 that night, was he still in possession of his--have all his wits about him?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Would you still describe him the way you did before?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he was still alert---quick.
Mr. STERN. Calm?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Could you describe the conditions in the corridor and other areas around Captain Fritz' office and the room in which the interrogations were taking place? During the day Friday and Saturday.
Mr. SIMS. Well, of course, our office--Captain Fritz' office was crowded.
Mr. STERN. With officials?
Mr. SIMS. Official FBI, Secret Service, and Government officials and city officials--Texas Rangers and State officials.
Mr. STERN. Was this making interrogation more difficult?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know if it would or not. A number was in Captain Fritz' office during the interrogation--I believe during all of the interrogations.
Mr. STERN. Were the interrogations conducted so that one person asked all the questions, or were several people asking questions during the course of the same interrogation?
Mr. SIMS. Several people conducted the interrogation. Of course, there wasn't two or three speaking at one time--one of them would speak to him and more or less ask him questions.
Mr. STERN. How about the conditions outside the offices, in the corridor, as to people who were not officials?
Mr. SIMS. Well, it was a problem getting through. It was crowded.
Mr. STERN. Because of the----
Mr. SIMS. Photographers and newsmen.
Mr. SIMS. Were there television cameras in the corridor at that time?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. STERN. Do you know when they were brought in, were you present when they were installed?
Mr. SIMS. No; I don't know when they were installed.
Mr. STERN. As I understand it, you had to bring Oswald through part of this crowd of newspapermen to get him to the interrogation room, when you brought him to and from?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; the interrogation room was all in room 317, but when we would have to go through the crowd would be to take him to a showup, and the next day when we would bring him from the jail to Captain Fritz' office, it would be a matter of 20 or 30 feet there in the hall.
Mr. STERN. And in the course of those trips through the crowd, would people try to ask him questions?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. And tried to get him to make statements on the microphone?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; they would.
Mr. STERN. Would he respond--do you recall ever?
Mr. SIMS. Sometimes he would and sometimes he wouldn't.
Mr. STERN. Did this have any effect on him, did it seem to irritate him in any way, or did he also take this calmly?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I didn't notice anything different.
Mr. STERN. No noticeable difference?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. STERN. Would you describe his demeanor on Saturday as being the same as it was on Friday, was he still calm and in complete self-control?
Mr. SIMS. I was not around him a lot Saturday, I don't believe, but he still was calm and alert and everything.
Mr. STERN. How about his demeanor at the press conference Friday night when he was taken down to the showup room to meet the press?
Mr. SIMS. Well, he was--during the press interview---he was pretty snappy. He made some quick answers---I don't know what all it involved he denied knowledge of the President's assassination, I believe, and he denied knowledge of killing Officer Tippit.

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Mr. STERN. And he was snappy and arrogant and hostile?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; a form of arrogance, yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. But was he harassed by this or was he still calm and in control?
Mr. SIMS. Well, he had control of himself; yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. So that his snappiness was, would you say, his way of expressing his feelings?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know--I don't know, but he was snappy at that time--at that press interview.
Mr. STERN. That's all. Thank you.
That's all I have, Mr. Ball.
I believe Mr. Ely has a question or two.
Mr. ELY. There's one thing maybe you can help us clear up now. You took--I'm referring to late Friday night or let's say early Saturday morning.
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. ELY. You took Oswald up to the jail office on the fourth floor--about what time?
Mr. SIMS. I took him up to the jail office approximately 12:20.
Mr. ELY. And is that the last time you saw him before going home?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; and we turned him over to the jailers up there on the fourth floor at 12:23.
Mr. ELY. And about what time did you leave to go home for the night?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I believe I'm not positive about this, but I believe that night Boyd and I worked later than the other officers did.
Mr. ELY. Would you have any knowledge as to whether Oswald was checked out of the jail again after 12:23?
Mr. SIMS. Not to my knowledge. He was checked out later on in the day.
Mr. ELY. Right, but I'm speaking of now of sometime around 12:30 again---a quarter of 1 or something like that--you wouldn't know anything about that?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't know about that, but I checked him out later on that day. I don't know what time it was. I checked him out at 12:25 a.m.--I believe that's 10:25 a.m. is when I checked him out on the 23d.
Mr. ELY. That's all I have, Mr. Ball.
Mr. BALL. We have been attaching these as exhibits just for illustration, and do you mind if we mark it and make it part of your deposition?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; that will be fine.
Mr. BALL. All right. That will be Exhibit A of this deposition.
(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Sims Exhibit A," for identification.)
Mr. BALL. That is the written report you made to the police department of the events of the investigation on Friday, November 22, and Saturday, November 23?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; and the day of Oswald's murder on the 24th.
Mr. BALL. That was the 24th?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. This will be written up by the shorthand reporter and you can read it if you wish and make any changes you wish and sign it, or you can waive your signature and we will send it on to the Commission as you have here testified as she has taken it down.
Do you have any preference on that?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you want to waive your signature?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Fine. That will be all right. Thanks a lot.
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

-------------------------------------

TESTIMONY OF RICHARD M. SIMS RESUMED

The testimony of Richard M. Sims was taken at 10 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

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Mr. BELIN. Will you stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. SIMS. I do.
Mr. BELIN. You are Detective Richard M. Sims?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Of the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Detective Sims, the day before yesterday you gave testimony in front of or before Joseph A. Ball?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. At that time the matter came up concerning cartridge case hulls that were found on the southeast corner of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963. Do you remember that he asked about those?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Just for continuity of the record, would you tell us just how you came to see those hulls?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; Captain Fritz, Boyd, and I, my partner, were on the seventh floor, and someone called us to the sixth floor and said the hulls had been found.
So we took the freight elevator, I believe, or the stairs, and went to the sixth floor. Went to the southeast corner and three hulls were laying there by the window on the floor.
Mr. BELIN. Did you pick up the hulls at that time?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do?
Mr. SIMS. Waited for the arrival of Lieutenant Day with the crime lab to take pictures of the scene.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know who came with Lieutenant Day, if you can remember?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. I believe it was Studebaker. I am not positive about that.
Mr. BELIN. Did you watch that area up until the time the pictures were taken?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't stay there all the time.
Mr. BELIN. After the pictures were taken, what did you do?
Mr. SIMS. I was over there, I believe, when they finished up with the pictures, and I picked the three hulls up and laid them on what I believed to be a box of books there near the window, and Lieutenant Day dusted them for fingerprints.
Mr. BELIN. Then when your testimony was taken, did you specifically remember what you did with those hulls?
Mr. SIMS. I didn't remember who brought the hulls to the city hall.
Mr. BELIN. Since that time have you had an opportunity to refresh your recollection as to what happened to the hulls?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I talked to Captain Fritz and E. L. Boyd, my partner, and refreshed my memory.
Mr. BELIN. What was said, and what do you now say happened?
Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz told me to get the hulls after Lieutenant Day finished with them and to take possession of them.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do?
Mr. SIMS. I did that.
Mr. BELIN. How did you take possession of them?
Mr. SIMS. I placed them in an envelope and put them in my coat pocket.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember which pocket?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do with them?
Mr. SIMS. When we got to the city hall, I gave them to Captain Fritz in his office.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what time that was, possibly?

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Mr. SIMS. No, sir; they took my notes the other day. I couldn't say. Whenever we arrived back at the city hall, they have what time that was.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what the occasion was of your going down to the city hall there? Is that why you happened to go down to the city hall that afternoon?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we were going to get started on Oswald.
Mr. BELIN. Were you on your way down there to investigate whether or not he had any record?
Mr. SIMS. I didn't know what he had at the time. I don't remember. I was driving, and captain, we stopped at the sheriff's office for a few minutes, and then went directly from there to the city hall.
Mr. BELIN. Why were you going to get started on Oswald?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know. Captain Fritz said go to the city hall.
Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you that they were going to get started on Oswald?
Mr. SIMS. No. He said go to the city hall.
Mr. BELIN. And that is what you did?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. When you got to the city hall, did you go directly to Captain Fritz' office?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. When you got there, was anyone inside?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Who was there?
Mr. SIMS. His office was full of people.
Mr. BELIN. Was Lee Oswald one of them?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. In Captain Fritz' office?
Mr. SIMS. No. He was, I believe, now in the interrogation room. I am not positive. He wasn't in Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do with that envelope when you got to Captain Fritz' office?
Mr. SIMS. I laid it on his desk and told him there was the hulls, or either gave it to him.
Mr. BELIN. You don't remember which one?
Mr. SIMS. No.
Mr. BELIN. Now what caused you to remember now what you actually did with the hulls? I mean, what refreshed your recollection as to that?
Mr. SIMS. Talked to Captain Fritz, and I remember we was going over to where the rifle, someone had found the rifle in the meantime, and we was walking over to where the rifle was found, and he told me to be sure and get the hulls.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I went over to where the rifle was found, and went back later to where the hulls were.
Mr. BELIN. Were the hulls still in the location you left them for being dusted for fingerprints?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; they were still taking pictures.
Mr. BELIN. Were they still taking pictures, or dusting them?
Mr. SIMS. I hadn't picked them up. They were still, as far as I can remember, taking pictures, because Captain Fritz left two officers to preserve the scene.
Mr. BELIN. When you got back, what did you do after they got through with the pictures?
Mr. SIMS. When he got through with the scenery I picked the hulls up.
Mr. BELIN. Was it then that he dusted them, or what?
Mrs. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Now, did Captain Fritz tell you that this is what you did, or Boyd tell you?
Mr. SIMS. No, I remembered the other day when I testified I wasn't too sure who brought them down, and then after I talked to Captain Fritz and Boyd, I remembered definitely we were walking over to where the rifle was found, and he told me to be sure and get the hulls, so I did that.
Mr. BELIN. Did Captain Fritz tell you, or the other, Day, that you were the one that brought the hulls, or did you independently remember?


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Mr. SIMS. I remembered putting them in my coat pocket.
Mr. BELIN. Now, Detective Sims, just so that I can have a complete understanding of the process by which you refreshed your recollection, you talked to Captain Fritz about this after you testified here on Monday?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What did he say and what did you say, if you remember?
Mr. SIMS. I told him I couldn't remember for sure about who brought the hulls up there to his office or what happened to the hulls, and then I talked to him.
Mr. BELIN. What did he say?
Mr. SIMS. He said, "Well, remember I told you to get the hulls and bring them to the office."
And I talked to Boyd, my partner, and he said that Captain Fritz had said that, too, so I remembered exactly about where I was when he told me this.
Mr. BELIN. In other words, Captain Fritz told you on Monday, that back on November 22, he had told you to get the hulls? Is that what Captain Fritz told you on this past Monday?
Mr. SIMS. No, not the past Monday. Now this was----
Mr. BELIN. Well, today is Wednesday. Could it have been on Tuesday, or Monday?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know if it was yesterday or Monday.
Mr. BELIN. Was it either late Monday, April 6, or Tuesday, April 7?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. That Captain Fritz told you that back on November 22, he had told you to get the hulls and bring them down?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. And you also discussed this with Detective Boyd either on April 6 or 7?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head yes?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, after they told you this, what is the fact as to whether you then do or do not independently remember actually putting these shells in an envelope?
Mr. SIMS. I do, yes, sir; I remember putting them in an envelope.
Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not you now independently remember putting that envelope in your pocket?
Mr. SIMS. I do, yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did Captain Fritz tell you that he saw you put them in your pocket?
Mr. SIMS. No; he didn't say anything about the envelope or pocket. I remember he told me to be sure and get the hulls.
Mr. BELIN. What about Boyd, did he say anything about an envelope? Or pocket?
Mr. SIMS. I don't believe he did, no, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what color envelope it was?
Mr. SIMS. I believe it was a brown, something brown envelope.
Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to a brown manilla envelope on top of the desk here?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how big an envelope it was?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't. We have two different sizes, and I don't remember what size.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember from whom you got the envelope?
Mr. SIMS. Lieutenant Day had it. When he goes to a scene, he has envelopes.
Mr. BELIN. Did Lieutenant Day or anyone else see you put that envelope in your pocket?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know if he saw me put the envelope in my pocket, but he was there when I took possession of the hulls.
Mr. BELIN. He was?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I am not sure, I don't know if the other crime lab officer was present or not. That would be Studebaker, I believe.

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Mr. BELIN. Where were these hulls when you last saw them, or saw the envelope in which they were?
Mr. SIMS. In Captain Fritz' office, I believe.
Mr. BELIN. Were they just laying on his desk, or in his physical possession?
Mr. SIMS. In this envelope.
Mr. BELIN. Was the envelope on his desk?
Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if I actually gave them to him or put them there on the desk in front of him.
Mr. BELIN. But he was there when you left there?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And that is the last time you saw them?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not you ever initialed the hulls?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know if I initialed the hulls or not.
Mr. BELIN. If you would have initialed the hulls, what initials would you have used?
Mr. SIMS. As a rule, RMS.
Mr. BELIN. RMS?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; but I believe I initialed the hulls or the envelope that I put them in.
Mr. BELIN. Would you have initialed the outside or the inside of the hull? By that, do you understand what I mean?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; it all depends. I would initial the outside of the hulls, I imagine, or put a mark directly inside of the hull.
Mr. BELIN. Either on the outside or directly inside the top part of the hull?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; the end.
Mr. BELIN. On the end of the hull?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, the spent end.
Mr. BELIN. The spent end?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of that might be relevant?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; but I do definitely remember him telling me about be sure and get the hulls.
Mr. BELIN. You definitely remember getting the hulls?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; sure do.
Mr. BELIN. Have you and I ever talked before you walked through the door?
Mr. SIMS. No.
Mr. BELIN. As soon as you walked through the door, I had you raise your right hand and you started testifying, is that correct?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you want to read this deposition, or are you going to sign the other deposition?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; just go ahead.
Mr. BELIN. Ship it on in?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. All right, thank you, sir.