SORRELS
Volume VII
TESTIMONY
OF FORREST V. SORRELS
The testimony of Forrest V. Sorrels was taken at 9:45 a.m. on May 7,
1964, at
Mr. STERN. Good morning, Mr. Sorrels.
Mr. SORRELS. Good morning, sir.
Mr. STERN. You understand that this is a continuation of your deposition,
and that you are still under oath?
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Mr. SORRELS, Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Yesterday you covered with Mr. Hubert the events that
transpired from the time of the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald forward1.
I would like to go back now with you and cover the advance preparations
for the President's trip, and come up to the time of the shooting of Oswald.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Would you tell us first something of your experience in
Presidential protection work through the course of your career in the Secret
Service?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; the first real assignment that I had in connection
with Presidential work was in 1936 at Dallas, Tex. when President Roosevelt came
there, and there was a parade downtown, motorcade out to the Cotton Bowl at Fair
Park, where he made a talk, and then from there to the Adolphus Hotel for
luncheon, and from the Adolphus Hotel to Lee Park, where he unveiled a monument,
and then motored to Fort Worth, Tex., where there was a reception committee that
met him on the lawn at the Texas Pacific Railroad Station, and then motored to a
park in Fort Worth where he made a talk, and then continued on out to his son
Elliott's ranch, west of Fort Worth.
During the time that President Roosevelt was in office, there were a
number of times that he came to
One in particular that I recall was during the Second World War, when it
was necessary that his travels be kept secret, and we were able to get him into
his son's home and visit the airplane factory where the B-36 was manufactured
there at Fort Worth, and get him out of town, and it was some 2 hours after that
before any reporter ever found out and called our office inquiring about the
President.
I have been to
I have been assigned on surveys in connection with inaugurations. I have
been in
Mr. STERN. That was President Eisenhower?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Have you worked on visits by President Kennedy to
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; there were two visits that he made there--one a
very short notice one of a matter of a few hours, when he came to Dallas to
visit Mr. Rayburn in Baylor Hospital. Then when he came to Bonham, at the time
Mr. Rayburn was buried---we had the assignments in connection with that.
Mr. STERN. These were informal trips, without publicity?
Mr. SORRELS. There was publicity. For example, the one that he came to
the hospital, it wasn't announced until about 10 o'clock in the morning that he
would be there.
He came there, I guess, a little over 2 or 3 hours after that--just a
very quick trip, and not much time to make any preparation.
But, fortunately, everything went real good.
Mr. STERN. Mr. Sorrels, is there any significant difference that occurs
to you in the protective arrangements, including the advance arrangements, for
the November trip to Dallas by President Kennedy, and this trip you were telling
us about that President Roosevelt made to Dallas, which involved a similar
motorcade, in 1936, I believe you said?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. STERN. About the same advance preparation?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Protective organization?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Of course in the one that President Roosevelt came there, it was more
functions and more places to go, including two cities.
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Mr. STERN. Yes. But----
Mr. SORRELS. But the actual preparation was along the same lines.
Mr. STERN. You have been following a procedure and pattern as long as you
have been doing this kind of work?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. It has been pretty much the same procedure?
Mr. SORRELS. That is correct, sir.
Mr. STERN. When you know that a President is coming to the area under
your jurisdiction, what arrangements do you try to work out with the Police
Department?
Mr. SORRELS. We will have a conference with the Chief of Police and his
key personnel, usually when it is determined what the program is going to be.
In some instances where there has to be a meeting with the advance man
from the White House detail, and for the local committee and the plans are not
entirely solid, we have found that to bring the police in at that time is a
little bit premature, because I have known of instances where we have had such
meetings and the orders have been cut, and then they had to be changed, because
of some change.
So, insofar as is possible, the meeting with the police is held at a time
when we know pretty much what the program is going to be. And that procedure is
followed in every instance.
In some instances, as I mentioned a moment ago there, when President
Kennedy came to the Baylor Hospital, we didn't have very much time--it is
something we have to work out very rapidly, and which was done in this instance
with the Chief of Police and his key men, and the security was set up on a very,
very short notice.
Mr. STERN. But normally, when you have the time, you like, as I
understand it, to try to make your arrangements----
Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes; as far in advance as possible, because we realize
that it is quite a task for them, because they have got many men involved, and
many things that have to be taken into consideration, so that their orders can
be properly drawn and the men dispatched to the proper places with a knowledge
of what they are supposed to do.
Mr. STERN. But you do try to have the trip or the motorcade route, if
there is to be a motorcade, pretty well worked out before you go to the police?
Mr. SORRELS. We usually have an idea what we would like to do, and we, of
course, confer with the police because they may have in instances knowledge that
we don't have about a certain area that it might not be appropriate to use or to
go into.
Mr. STERN. Let's see if we can relate this now to President Kennedy's
trip
When did you first hear that he was to make this trip, Mr. Sorrels?
Mr. SORRELS. On November 4, 1963, I received a long distance call from
Special Agent in Charge Gerald A. Behn, of the White House Detail, stating that
the President would probably visit Dallas about November 21, and that there had
been a couple of buildings suggested, one of them being the Trade Mart, which he
understood had about 60 entrances to it, and six catwalks over the area where
the luncheon would be. And that the second choice that had been suggested then
was the Women's Building at the State Fair Grounds. That was another place
referred to as a trade center, which is actually Market Hall, which is across
the street from the Trade Mart.
He instructed that I make a survey of these buildings and report back to
him the conditions.
Mr. STERN. What did you do?
Mr. SORRELS. Accompanied by Special Agent Robert A. Stewart of my office,
we went to the Trade Mart and looked the situation over there, and we did find
that there were entrances coming into, you might call it, a courtyard where the
luncheon was to have been entrances coming into that area. And that there were
two suspension bridges or catwalks on the second floor and on the third floor.
The outside entrances were no particular problem, but it did mean that it
would take quite a bit of manpower to cover each one of the entrances that
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could
come on to the balcony, you might say, that was entirely around on the second
and the third floors.
We then went to the Market Hall, which was ideal insofar as security
measures were concerned, in that there were only three outside entrances, and it
was a huge ball, 107,000 square feet, with no columns, and you could seat about
20,000 people in there.
But there was another function going to be there at that time the
American Bottling Association was going to have, as I recall, an exhibit there.
So that part was out.
We then went to
That building had about 45,000 square feet in it, and you could scat
about 5,000 people in it. Securitywise it wasn't bad at all, because there were
two end openings to the building, and there was actually an area where you could
drive a car in there. But the building was not satisfactory for that type of
function--the President of the United States coming there--because the ceilings
were quite low, the air-conditioning equipment and everything was all exposed,
there were many steel suspension supports throughout the area.
I then returned to my office and telephoned to Mr. Behn and informed him
of my findings and told him that securitywise the Women's Building appeared to
be preferable, but that it wasn't a very nice place to take the President.
Then----
Mr. STERN. What did you tell him about the Trade Mart?
Mr. SORRELS. I told him that there were many entrances there and that it
would pose a problem manpowerwise to have the proper security there.
Mr. STERN. But did you indicate to him that this could be handled?
Mr. SORRELS. I don't recall whether I specifically said it could be or
not. Definitely I was under the impression that if the place was chosen, we
would take the necessary precautions and would have it properly manned.
Mr. STERN. You did not, in any event, tell him that you didn't think the
Trade Mart would be a safe place?
Mr. SORRELS. No, I don't recall I told him it would not be a safe place,
no, sir.
Mr. STERN. When did all this happen, Mr. Sorrels? Was it immediately
after November 4?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, it was on November 4.
Mr. STERN. What was the next event in your advance preparations for the
President's trip?
Mr. SORRELS. On November 13, Special Agent Winston G. Lawson, from the
White House detail, and Mr. Jack Puterbaugh, had arrived at Dallas the evening
before, and they came to my office, and we then went to the office of Mr. A. W.
Cullum, President of the Chamber of Commerce, and we then went to the Trade
Mart, and then to the Women's Building at the State Fairgrounds.
Mr. STERN. Mr. Sorrels, would you look at this Xerox copy of a two-page
memorandum which appears to be signed by you, dated November 30, 1963, and
carries the identifying number CO-2-34030. Can you identify that for me, please?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; that is a memorandum which was prepared by me on
November 30, 1963.
Mr. STERN. Did you make this memorandum in the ordinary course of your
work, or were you specially instructed to make it?
Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, I was instructed to make the report, but it
is a procedure we ordinarily follow in making memorandums of such surveys, in
confirmation of the phone calls.
Mr. STERN. Did you make it from notes that you had or from memory?
Mr. SORRELS. Both, sir.
Mr. STERN. Did you preserve the notes from which this was made, or
destroy them?
Mr. SORRELS. No, I preserved them. I have them here--regarding the phone
call and the notes that I made, regarding the survey at the Trade Mart and
Women's Club.
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Mr. STERN. May I see them, please?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. And this covers what you have just been telling us about in
connection with the selection of the luncheon site for the President's visit?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Have you reviewed your memorandum of November 30 recently, Mr.
Sorrels, in preparation for your testimony here?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Is there any respect in which you would like to change
anything that is in the memorandum in view of your further consideration of the
events described?
Mr. SORRELS. There is only one point there, about the date that we went
by the police station.
Mr. STERN. Where is that covered in your memorandum?
Mr. SORRELS. That is in the last paragraph on the first page, where it is
stated that on November 15, that we went to the office of the Chief of Police
Curry.
I was under the impression that it was possibly the day before. I could
be in error on that.
Mr. STERN. In any event, it was after Mr. Lawson had arrived, and that
was on November 13?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. I might state here that I had previously received two
phone calls from Chief of Police Jesse Curry about the President's trip there.
He was, of course, wanting to get the information as soon as possible, so that
they could start their preparations. And he actually called me before Mr. Lawson
got there, and he called me again after Mr. Lawson had gotten there, before we
had gone to see him. And I explained to the chief that, on the first call, there
would be someone from the White House detail coming to
On the second call, I told him that the man from the White House detail
had arrived, but that we were still working on the plans, that it was not
definitely known at that time where the luncheon was going to be, and that just
as soon as it was determined where the luncheon was going to be, that we would
then get in touch with him.
And it was at my suggestion to Mr. Lawson that we go by the Police
Department on the first time, because I did not want the chief to feel that we
were leaving him out in the dark, so to speak. And, for that reason, I suggested
that we go by at the time we did--because, actually, we were still in the
process of having these meetings to work out the final plans, and so forth.
Mr. STERN. That is the visit you refer to in this last paragraph on page
1?
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. STERN. Your memorandum, Mr. Sorrels, gives me enough information on
many of the points we are interested in, and I don't think we have to cover
those, unless you would like to add something to them.
I would like to have you tell us about the selection of the motorcade
route, what you had to do with that, and what you know of that.
Mr. SORRELS. After it was determined that there was going to be a
motorcade, which was actually after Mr. Lawson got there, we had discussed the
ways to get to the Trade Mart, and one of my questions was why don't we bring
the President from the Texas Hotel to the Trade Mart by motorcade.
Mr. STERN.
Mr. SORRELS. In Fort Worth--because I knew we would be able to pick the
President up at the Texas Hotel in Fort Worth, and by motor get him to the Trade
Mart in a shorter time than it would take him to go from the Texas Hotel to the
Air Force Base, and go by plane to Love Field, and from Love Field go to the
Trade Mart.
But that was ruled out because the previous plans were that he was to
come by plane. And, of course, it would not have been practical to have brought
him by motor from Fort Worth if there was going to be a downtown parade, because
it would have meant coming in from the west side of the city, and we would have
to go right back to the west side of the city to get to the Trade Mart, which
would have meant a complete loop through the downtown section.
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So when it was determined that there was going to be a downtown parade,
Mr. Lawson, of course, wanted to know which would be the best route to take him
to the Trade Mart from Love Field.
So Mr. Lawson and I drove what I thought would be the best route and the
most direct route to the Trade Mart, bearing in mind that there would be a
parade through the downtown section.
So we drove that route. And
then later on we had the police go with us, and we went over the same route.
There were some discussions as to one section, whether it would be better
to get onto what we have known as the Central Expressway there, and come off of
it into
Another thing, too, they wanted as many people as possible to see him,
that would not have any opportunity to see him on the Central Expressway.
So the route that we chose was from Love Field approach to Mockingbird
Lane, left on Mockingbird Lane to Lemmon, down Lemmon to Turtle, right on Turtle
Creek to Cedar Springs, left on Cedar Springs to Harwood, right from Harwood on
Main Street, continue down Main Street to Houston Street, and then make a
right-hand turn to Elm Street and then under the underpass to Stemmons
Expressway, which was the most direct route from there and the most rapid route
to the Trade Mart.
Mr. STERN. Excuse me--you said right-hand turn to Elm. I think you mean
left.
Mr. SORRELS. A right-hand turn on
Now, Elm is one way going west in the direction which we would have gone,
but that street is not the street that they use for parades.
We came up on Houston Street from Union Station, turned right on Main
Street, right on Main Street, through the very heart of the town.
Mr. STERN. And went right past the School Book Depository then on
Mr. SORRELS. Just within I block of it, because we were coming, in that
instance, from the Union Station, which is south of the Depository, to Main
Street, right on Main Street, which is just 1 block from the Depository.
Mr. STERN I take it, then, that once you were told there was to be a
motorcade, and approximately 45 minutes was allotted to the motorcade, this
route pretty well mapped itself, apart from the question whether to use the
expressway or Harwood Street to get on to Main Street, is that right?
Mr. SORREL. Yes, sir; that is right.
Mr. STERN. Why didn't you route the motorcade on
Mr. SORRELS. Well, because you cannot get to the entrance to Stemmons
Expressway on
On the other side of the first underpass there is a section built up to
prevent cars from cutting in from
Mr. STERN. Do you know what this built-up place is constructed of?
Mr. SORRELS. It is, I am sure, asphalt, or concrete--probably concrete.
You would have to go down on
Mr. STERN. Could that reverse-S turn which you have described have been
done conveniently with a car the size of the Presidential limousine?
Mr. SORRELS. No, it would not be convenient with an ordinary car, because
it
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would
be a very sharp hairpin turn, and the place that is built there is there
specifically to prevent anyone from getting over on the wrong way there.
Mr. STERN. When you laid out
the motorcade route and drove over it--and I take it you drove over it several
times----
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Did you consider
or discuss with Mr. Lawson the possibility of any danger to the President from
the buildings along the route?
Mr. SORRELS. Well----
Mr. STERN. Did you think
about any of the buildings as presenting any particular problem?
Mr. SORRELS. All buildings
are a problem, as far as we are concerned. That,
insofar as I have been concerned--and I am sure that every member of the
Service, especially the Detail--that is always of concern to us.
We always consider it a hazard. During
the time that we were making this survey with the police, I made the remark that
if someone wanted to get the President of the United States, he could do it with
a high-powered rifle and a telescopic sight from some building or some hillside,
because that has always been a concern to us, about the buildings.
Mr. STERN. Do you recall any
further conversation, any further remarks in that conversation?
Did anybody respond to that remark? Only
if you recall.
Mr. SORRELS. I don't recall
any particular response. Probably
there was confirmation of that fact, because I think that anyone that has had
any experience in security measures would have the same opinion.
I don't recall anyone specifically making any comment like that.
Mr. STERN. But there was no
suggestion that anything might be done to minimize that risk?
Mr. SORRELS. Nothing more
than what we always do----try to scan the windows, and if we see something
suspicious, take proper action.
Mr. STERN. When you went over
the parade route with the police officials, did they confirm your view that this
was the proper route to use?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, they did.
Mr. STERN. And there was no
concern expressed by them that some other route might be better for some reason?
Mr. SORRELS, No, sir; no, sir.
Mr. STERN. I would like you
now, Mr. Sorrels, to tell us something of the Protective Research activities
that took place in preparation for the President's visit to
Mr. SORRELS. At that time, we
had no known Protective Research subjects that we were making periodic checks on
in that area. Mr. Lawson informed me
that he had checked with PRS, and that was confirmed.
However, bearing in mind the incidents that had taken place some time
before with Mr. Stevenson, I had instructed Special Agent John Joe Howlett, to
work with the Special Services Bureau of the Police Department, and I also
conferred by phone with the chief of police at Denton, Tex., because some of
those individuals who were involved in the Stevenson affair were going to
college there.
Mr. STERN. What was the
Stevenson affair, as far as you knew?
Mr. SORRELS. That was an
instance where a number of people were at a theatre, as I recall it, theatre
building, when Mr. Stevenson came out, and they were there with placards, and
one woman is alleged to have hit him over the head with a placard, and another
individual spat upon Mr. Stevenson, and also a police officer that took him into
custody. And I did not want any such
instance to happen when the President of the
Mr. STERN. How soon had that
happened before the President's visit?
Mr. SORRELS. I don't
remember. It was probably some 60
days, maybe, before.
It was quite some time before.
But within recent time. And
so Mr. Anderson, chief of police, informed me that he had an informant that was
keeping in touch with the situation. I
arranged with the Dallas Police Department for Lieutenant Revill to accompany
Special Agent Howlett to
When we were conferring with Mr. Felix McKnight, the managing editor of
the
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taken
at the Stevenson incident. So
arrangements were made whereby Special Agent Howlett and the members of the
Dallas Police Department, together with the informant in the case, would view
those films, so that there could be pointed out to them individuals known to
have been in the incident.
We had duplicate pictures made, and they were furnished to the special
agent assigned to the Trade Mart, and were shown to the police officers that
were assigned out in that area.
Mr. STERN. Did anything else
occur in the field of Protective Research?
Mr. SORRELS. That is all I can recall at the present time.
Now, we had received, I think, some time before, a report from the FBI of
an individual that might be considered a subject that we should check into. On
October 30, Special Agent Vince Drain of the FBI reported a person, a member
supposedly of the Ku Klux Klan in
Lieutenant Revill got a photograph of that individual and he was checked
on, and it was determined that he would not be in that area at that time.
Mr. STERN. Did the FBI report anything else to your office?
Mr. SORRELS. On the morning of November 21, as I recall it, Special Agent
Hosty came to the office early in the morning with a number of handbills which
bore a picture of the President of the United States, Mr. Kennedy, with the
caption, "Wanted for Treason," with a number of numbered paragraphs
supposedly outlining the reason.
Mr. STERN. Did your office make an investigation of that pamphlet?
Mr. SORRELS. I had previously received the information early in the
morning from the sheriff's office that such handbills had been found on the
streets. We contacted the police department, Lieutenant Revill, and they had a
number of the handbills, and they were just found on the street. We could not
from the police investigation or from our inquiries, find anyone that had seen
anyone actually distributing them.
And we had no other leads on the handbills at that time.
Mr. STERN. Did the
Mr. SORRELS. Nothing more than what I believe I have outlined with
Lieutenant Revill's department there.
Mr. STERN. Was there anything else that you recall involving any person
or group that might present a danger to the President?
Mr. SORRELS. There was some individuals from Grand Prairie, Tex., that
were mentioned to us by the police department that were known to be the type
that might appear with handbills or placards--not handbills, but with placards
in the area where the President might appear. And it developed that they did
show up with placards at the Trade Mart, and they were taken into custody by the
police department.
Mr. STERN. Did your office also take steps to assure that there would be
no interference with free speech and lawful public demonstrations?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, we discussed with the police what action would be taken
if people showed up with placards and attempted to interfere. And it was very
definitely stated that if they had placards, just the mere fact that they had
placards would not cause them to be picked up. But that we did not want them
close enough to where the President would come or where he would be that these
might be used to cause any harm to the President or the Vice President or
members of their families.
There had recently been passed in
Mr. STERN. Now, you have told us, Mr. Sorrels, that you had no record of
any PRS subject that you were checking on in your office, and that Lawson
advised you that he had been told of no subject in your area in his advance
check before
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he
left
Mr. SORRELS. No. We had records of some subjects that were in
institutions, but they were not out where they would be available.
Mr. STERN. Had there been in the past, during your tenure in the
Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes.
Mr. STERN. But there were none at this particular time?
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. STERN. When the incident involving Ambassador Stevenson had occurred,
did you consider obtaining information on the participants and referring that
information to the Protective Research Section in
Mr. SORRELS. Not unless the President or the Vice President would come to
that area, I had no intention doing that, because there was no actual threat,
nor was the President of the United States involved in name or otherwise,
insofar as I knew, in connection with the Stevenson affair.
Mr. STERN. How has the cooperation been with local authorities and local
officers of Federal agencies in advising you of any potential danger to the
President?
Mr. SORRELS. We have received reports of phone calls and threats or
something like that from time to time. I think that all of the Federal offices
that come into any information about a threat concerning the President of the
Mr. STERN. And from the local police authorities?
Mr. SORRELS. I can't recall any specific instance, but I am sure that in
the past there have been instances where such a report has been reported to us.
Mr. STERN. Have you made known to the local authorities the kind of
information in which you would be interested in this area?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. We have participated in the training schools of the
Dallas Police Department, and the Fort Worth Police Department, the auxiliary
schools conducted by the sheriff's office and the Dallas Police Department.
We have participated in schools at
We have participated at
And in our course of instruction, we have discussed with them the
protective measures that are required and taken in connection with the
protection of the President of the
Mr. STERN. How is your liaison with the local police and local offices of
Federal agencies?
Mr. SORRELS. I consider it very, very good.
Mr. STERN. In all respects?
Mr. SORRELS. In all respects; yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Had you requested any local Federal agency, for example FBI or
Internal Revenue, to participate in any way in the actual protection measures
for the day of the President's visit?
Mr. SORRELS. I had offers
from some of the other agencies, offering their services in case there was
anything they could assist in.
The usual reply to that is that we are working with the local officials,
police department, sheriff's department, Department of Public Safety, and we
feel that we have sufficient manpower to take care of the program as we have in
the past, and we have always suggested, in not only this instance but in other
instances, that if any member of their department should hear of anything, or
see anything unusual, that they felt we should know about, to please get in
touch with us immediately, along those lines.
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Mr. STERN. You felt, then, that the local police forces would supply all
the outside assistance you needed for this visit?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; the Dallas Police Department, in my opinion, has
some very good leaders, career men who have been there for many years, and due
to the fact I have been located in Dallas for many, many years I know these
people personally, and I have never yet called upon the Dallas Police
Department, the Sheriff's Office, or the Department of Public Safety, for any
assistance that we have not gotten and gotten cheerfully and willingly.
For example, the time that Mr. Kennedy came there to the hospital to see
Mr. Rayburn, is a case where I could tell nobody until just a matter of 2 or 3
hours before the President would get there, that he was coming, because the
afternoon before, when I heard that he was coming, it was supposed to have been
off the record, and there was not supposed to be any publicity about it.
The next morning I got a call and said it would be announced at 10
o'clock in the morning.
Well, immediately after that I called Chief Curry and he met me at the
hospital with some of his key men, and the arrangements were set up in a matter
of minutes, you might say, arrangements for the street to be blocked by the
hospital, for sufficient detectives and men to be around the area, in various
places in the hospital, and arrangements were made to have the police cars to
accompany us from the airport down there.
I consider that our relationship with the local enforcement agencies, not
only in the
Mr. STERN. On the occasion of President Kennedy's visit, they supplied
all the manpower you felt was necessary?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Were all the police that had various functions along the
motorcade route full-time policemen, Mr. Sorrels?
Mr. SORRELS. There may have been, and probably was, some auxiliary police
which may have been along the route that the parade traveled on. I am not sure
about that.
They do have reserves that they call in. But those reserves, they are not
armed--they are in uniform, but they are not armed.
And my records do not show that there were auxiliary police there. But I
do know that they use them on occasion.
Mr. STERN. Mr. Smith, if you have any questions on this aspect of our
interview, please feel free to ask them, because I am going to turn now to the
actual events of the day. I believe that the other advance preparations are
covered adequately for our purposes in Mr. Sorrel's memorandum, which I am about
to introduce.
Mr. SMITH. I have no questions.
Mr. STERN. Mr. Sorrels, I am going to mark this copy of your memorandum
"Exhibit 4, Deposition of F. V. Sorrels, May 7, 1964."
Would you initial each page, please?
(Brief recess.)
Mr. STERN. Mr. Sorrels, I would like to turn now to the morning of
November 22 and get from you an account of what you observed as a passenger in
the motorcade and thereafter.
In what car were you riding in the motorcade?
Mr. SORREL. I was riding in what we call the lead car, which is the one
immediately in front of the President's car.
Mr. STERN. What was your function in the lead car?
Mr. SORRELS. To be there with the special agent who had made the survey,
and with the Chief of Police, and to observe the people and buildings as we
drove along in the motorcade.
Mr. STERN. One of your responsibilities was to observe the buildings and
the windows of the buildings?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Looking for what?
Mr. SORRELS. We always do that.
Mr. STERN. What would you be looking for?
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Mr. SORRELS. Anything that to us might mean danger.
For example, if someone had an object that appeared to be a gun, or
something like that--that, of course, would attract our attention. Or if someone
appeared to have something they were fixing to throw or toss, we definitely
would take cognizance of that immediately.
Mr. STERN. Do you recall remarking on anything you observed in the
windows as you drove along
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, I do; there was a tremendous crowd on
Mr. STERN. Now, as you made the right turn from
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, I did. Of course the Court House is on the right-hand
side, and the windows there appeared to be closed.
Mr. STERN. To the right-hand side of
Mr. SORRELS. Of
The Book Depository, as we turned to the right on
Mr. STERN. Do you think you had an opportunity to view all the windows of
the building?
Mr. SORRELS. I did, yes; because it was right in front.
Mr. STERN. Do you recall seeing anything on the side of the building to
your right, any of the windows on that side of the building--the far right side
of the building?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. There was
at least one or two windows that were open in that section over there. I do not
recall seeing anyone in any of those windows. I do not, of course, remember
seeing any object or anything like that in the windows such as a rifle or
anything pointing out the windows. There was no activity, no one moving around
that I saw at all.
Mr. STERN. But you believe you could observe all of the windows on the
side of the building facing you?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. In other words, it is just right down at the end of the
street.
Mr. STERN. Now, the car you were riding in was a closed car, was it not?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; it was a Ford sedan.
Mr. STERN. And you were in the rear seat?
Mr. SORRELS. Right rear.
Mr. STERN. Did the roof of the car obscure your view at all?
Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes.
Mr. STERN. But you were still able to observe the whole building?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. Of course I was sitting close to--as far over to the
right as I could get, and I could look out the window. I could not, of course,
look up and see any building straight up, or over to my left I would not have
been able to see anything that was any higher than the view of the window on the
left.
Mr. STERN. You didn't have your head actually out of the window?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; I did not. But the glass was down in the window.
Mr. STERN. As you turned into
Mr. SORRELS. Oh, probably about 30 feet--fairly close.
Mr. STERN. As you approached the
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Mr. SORRELS. Yes, it would have. The closer you got to it, looking out
from the front part of the car, naturally your vision would diminish as you
approach.
But we turned to the left on
Mr. STERNS. I believe you mean left onto
Mr. SORRELS. Elm Street--I am sorry.
Mr. STERN. So that when you turned from
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; you see, as you make the turn--of course, as we
pulled on down Elm Street, after having made the turn, it is actually more than
a right angle turn. It bends even more to the left. And you can, of course,
glance up like that as you go by. But as you go on by the building, the building
is getting away from you, and unless you would turn clear on around and look out
to the right, you would not be able to see the building after you got a little
distance down Elm Street there.
Mr. STERN. Did you turn to your right and look at the building again as
your car negotiated this turn onto
Mr. SORRELS. As the car was making the turn, yes, I was looking at the
crowd, and just glancing up at the building as we made the turn.
Mr. STERN. Do you believe that you saw all of the windows on the building
at that time?
Mr. SORRELS. As we were making the turn, yes, I would say that I saw all
the windows in the building--just looked at the windows as we made the turn. But
then I was looking at the people along the side of
Mr. STERN. Can you estimate, going back to the first turn into
Mr. SORRELS. On
Mr. STERN. Yes. As you turned right off
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. STERN. How long did you see the building before the roof obscured
your view?
Mr. SORRELS. Of course I wasn't looking at it all the time. As we came to
the right on Houston Street, of course, the building loomed up in front, and I
just looked at it, and looking at the people along the side,cx and as we were
making the turn I was just glancing like that and saw the building.
I saw nothing unusual or any activity at that time. And then after making
the turn, I did not look at the building any more, or in that direction, until
after the first shot.
Mr. STERN. Are you saying that you only glanced at the building then,
because you were looking at other things?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. I looked at the building. I didn't study it intently
and look at that and nothing else around there. I looked at the building, didn't
see any activity, and looked at the people as we had been doing during the
entire motorcade route.
Mr. STERN. Would this have been a matter of several seconds or longer
than that, or can you estimate?
Mr. SORRELS. I think it would be a matter of seconds, yes.
Mr. STERN. It is rather a large building, with a number of windows along
that side, is it not?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; it is a good-sized building. I believe it is seven
stories high.
Mr. STERN. And you think you had enough time, though, to see all the
windows, or is it a general impression?
Mr. SORRELS. Just a general impression.
In other words, I did not specifically study any specific window or
anything like that. It is just like you glance out and see the building there,
you would see some open windows, and maybe some people in them--that is all.
There wasn't any activity or anything like that that I saw.
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Mr. STERN. Now, as you turned left from
Mr. SORRELS. No; because he was making a left-hand turn, and, of course,
getting in front of the building, I just glanced out-- just as we made the turn,
just in a general way, you are looking at the crowd and the building, just a
glance at it at that time.
Mr. STERN. And at this point you are traveling directly in front of the
building?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. I imagine it would have been difficult to look up and see the
whole building.
Mr. SORRELS. No; I don't mean to say that after we made the turn I looked
up and saw the whole building. But just as we made the turn I looked towards the
building and saw people in front, and just glanced up--I would not say that I
saw the entire building at all at that time.
Mr. STERN. And it is your testimony that you saw nothing unusual, that
you observed no one there with a weapon?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. STERN. Or any other implement?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. STERN. That several windows were open on the side of the building at
different places?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. And that the only people you observed were at one particular
location?
Mr. SORRELS. I recall distinctly about two floors down seeing two colored
men there at the windows. I do not recall seeing--specifically seeing anyone
else. There may have been some one other person over there. But I do not recall
specifically seeing anyone on the right-hand side of the building, where the
window was open. I do not recall that.
Mr. STERN. And the location of the two Negro men that you observed was in
what part of the building?
Mr. SORRELS. I would say that it was about, oh, maybe a third of the
distance from the right to the left, maybe not quite that far.
Mr. STERN. And about two stories down?
Mr. SORRELS. From the top; yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. And when did you observe these Negro men, when you first
turned into
Mr. SORRELS. I observed them first, when I first looked at the building I
saw them, and I don't recall that I actually saw them again after that. When we
were making the turn I glanced, and as you say, I would not have been able to
see, I don't think all the way to the top of the building, unless I put my head
almost out the window.
But I saw people out in front, and I would not say that I saw the people
as I was making the turn or subsequent to that time.
Mr. STERN. When you looked at the crowd along
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. STERN. You have turned now onto Elm, Mr. Sorrels.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Why don't you tell us now in your own words and in as much
detail as you remember exactly what you recall transpired next.
Mr. SORRELS. The crowd had begun to thin out after we made the turn on
There is a sidewalk and terrace that goes up to the right, increasing in
height as you approach the underpass from the corner at Elm and
We were running late, because the President arrived at Love Field late.
Mr. Lawson was particularly concerned, as we all are, in keeping the
schedule.
I looked back to see how close the President's car was in making the
turn, because we had begun to pick up speed after we made the left-hand turn.
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Then I looked back to the right.
Mr. STERN. How close was the President's car?
Mr. SORRELS. At that time we were probably, oh, I would say, several car
lengths ahead of it, because we had begun to pick up speed.
Mr. STERN. You think somewhat further than you estimated before?
Mr. SORRELS. As we came around
And I expressed to him, I said, "Oh, we are not going to be very
late."
And I looked at my watch, and it was just about 12:30.
And I said, "We are not going to be over 5 minutes late," and
the Chief of Police, I believe, spoke up and said, "We are about 5 minutes
away now."
And so they called on the radio to the Trade Mart that we were 5 minutes
away.
And it seemed like almost instantly after that, the first shot was heard.
Mr. STERN. Now, did you recognize it at the time as a shot?
Mr. SORRELS. I felt it was, because it was too sharp for a backfire of an
automobile. And, to me, it appeared a little bit too loud for a firecracker.
I just said, "What's that?" And turned around to look up on
this terrace part there, because the sound sounded like it came from the back
and up in that direction.
At that time, I did not look back up to the building, because it was way
back in the back.
Within about 3 seconds, there were two more similar reports. And I said,
"Let's get out of here" and looked back, all the way back, then, to
where the President's car was, and I saw some confusion, movement there, and the
car just seemed to lunch forward.
And, in the meantime, a motorcycle officer had run up on the right-hand
side and the chief yelled to him, "Anybody hurt?"
He said, "Yes."
He said, "Lead us to the hospital."
And the chief took his microphone and told them to alert the hospital,
and said, "Surround the building." He didn't say what building. He
just said, "Surround the building." And by that time we had gotten
almost in under the underpass, and the President's car had come up and was
almost abreast of us.
When I saw them get so close, I said, "Let's get out quick," or
"Get going fast," or something to that effect. In other words, I
didn't want them to pass us, because I knew we were supposed to be in front.
And that is when they floor-boarded the accelerator on the police car and
we got out in front. And someone yelled loudly to go to the nearest hospital.
Mr. STERN. Let's stop there and go back, and then we will pick up again.
You testified that you heard three reports?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Are you pretty certain about that?
Mr. SORRELS. Positive.
Mr. STERN. And no more and no fewer?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. STERN. Can you you tell us anything about the spacing of these
reports?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. There was to me about twice as much time between the
first and second shots as there was between the second and third shots.
Mr. STERN. Can you estimate the overall time from the first shot to the
third shot?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. I have called it out to myself, I have timed it, and I
would say it was very, very close to 6 seconds.
Mr. STERN. It sounds like you can still hear the shots.
Mr. SORRELS. I will hear them forever--it is something I cannot wipe from
my mind ever.
Mr. STERN. And you had little doubt that this was gunfire at the time?
Mr. SORRELS. After--as I said before, on the first shot, it was too sharp
to be a backfire of an automobile. It just didn't sound like that at all. And
then, of course, the other two coming as quickly as they did, and the confusion,
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there
was no question, because I said, "Get out of here," meaning to move
out, because certainly if there is anything going on like that, we don't want to
even be stationary or near stationary--it is to get out of the vicinity as
quickly as we can from the source of danger. I thought in my mind--my thought
was that I should maybe get out to try to help apprehend who it was and so
forth. There was no chance for that, because we were moving too fast.
Mr. STERN. Now, as to the apparent source of these reports, did you feel
that all three reports came from the same direction?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. Definitely so.
Mr. STERN. And that direction, as nearly as you can place it, was what?
Mr. SORRELS. To the right and back. That is about the only way I can
express it.
And, as I said, the noise from the shots sounded like they may have come
back up on the terrace there. And that is the reason I was looking around like
that when the first shot. And I continued to look out until the other two shots.
And then I turned on around and looked back to where the President's car was,
and that is when I saw some movement there, and the car just seemed to leap
forward.
Mr. STERN. When you looked at the terrace to the right of
Mr. SORRELS. No; I didn't see anything unusual at that time.
Mr STERN. Were you looking at that terrace when either the second or
third shot was fired?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; I was. And I saw just some movement of some people, but
no firearms or anything like that, because we began to move out rather rapidly.
And we were quite a ways down the street at that time.
Mr. STERN. How do you mean movement of people?
Mr. SORRELS. It seems I recall someone turned around and was going in the
other direction, like moving away from the street. And that is all I can recall.
Mr. STERN. But you didn't observe anything that led you to feel that the
shots might have been fired from that terrace there?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. STERN. It sounded to you at first as though it came from there?
Mr. SORRELS. That is the way it sounded--back into the rear and to the
right, back up in that direction. And in the direction, of course, of the
building.
But the reports seemed to be so loud, that it sounded like to me in other
words, that was my first thought, somebody up on the terrace, and that is the
reason I looked there.
As we were approaching the overpass there, Mr. Lawson remarked that there
was an officer on the overpass there. I saw a police officer standing there with
two or three other persons over to his right.
Mr. STERN. Where is this?
Mr. SORRELS. On the overpass, on
There was no activity there. They
were just standing there.
And I remarked, as I recall, "A policeman is there," or words
to that effect, because Mr. Lawson had been checking, as well as myself, all of
the overpasses, to see that the officer was there, because that is one of the
specific things that was checked all the way through.
Mr. STERN. And you observed nothing unusual on the overpass?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. STERN. Were the people on the overpass in a fairly tight group, or
spread out over the overpass?
Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, the police officer was about the center of
the overpass on Elm Street, and then to his right--I mean to my right which
would have been his left, there seemed to be, as I recall it, about three other
persons up there that appeared to be workmen or dressed like that, and they were
to his right.
They were not right close together, but standing within walking distance.
Mr. STERN. As far as you can recall, were all the people you saw on the
overpass within the sight of the policeman on the overpass?
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Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes; they were in the same vicinity.
Mr. STERN. Do you have any reason to believe that any of these shots
might have come from the overpass?
Mr. SORRELS. None whatsoever; no, sir.
Mr. STERN. And are you certain in your own mind that they did not come
from the overpass?
Mr. SORRELS. Positive.
Mr. STERN. Do you have any reason to believe that the shots could not
have come from the
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. STERN. Would shots from the
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; they would have.
Mr. STERN. What happened next, Mr. Sorrels?
Mr. SORRELS. We proceeded to
Mr. STERN. Did you go into the hospital?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I did not go into the hospital.
Of course the lead car was in front. We went around to the emergency
entrance. I jumped out of the car, and I expected to see stretchers there, out
waiting, but they were not. And I ran to the entrance door there, and at that
time they began to bring stretchers out, and I said, "Hurry up and get
those stretchers out," and someone else, probably one of the police
officers, also said to hurry up and get the stretchers out.
There was a lot of confusion around at that time.
And they did get the stretchers out. And then Mr. Johnson--they brought
him into the hospital, he rushed into the hospital. And they took Mr. Connally
in, loaded him first, and then the President, and just as quick as they got in
there, I immediately went into a police car that was leaving and asked them to
take me to the building as fast as they could, and when I said the building I
meant the one on the corner there, which was the Book Depository.
Mr. STERN. Why did you designate the Book Depository?
Mr. SORRELS. Because I wanted to get there and get something going in
establishing who the people were that were in that vicinity. And upon arrival at
the Book Store, we pulled up on the side, and I went in the back door.
Mr. STERN. Just a minute. Had you heard any mention of the Book
Depository on police broadcasts as you drove to the hospital?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I never heard anything.
Mr. STERN. And, at this point, you were not certain that the shots came
from the Book Depository?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I didn't know at that time.
Mr. STERN. You just wanted to get to that general area?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; because I knew that there would be witnesses
around there, there would have to be somebody in that vicinity.
And upon arrival at the Book Depository, I went in the back door.
There were people moving around.
I asked, "Where is the manager here?"
Mr. STERN. Just a minute.
How much time do you think elapsed from the time the shots were fired
until the time you returned to the Book Depository?
Mr. SORRELS. I don't believe it could have been over about 20 minutes,
because we went to the hospital just as fast as we possibly could, and I wasn't
there very long.
And we came back as fast as we could.
Of course we didn't get back as fast as we went out there, because
traffic was moving.
The other way it was just cleared out to the Trade Mart. We had clear
sailing from the time that the shots were fired until we got to the Trade Mart,
because that was the route that we were going to go anyway. And that was cleared
out.
But coming back, of course, there was traffic. We did come back under
lights and siren, as fast as we could.
But there was traffic that slowed us up some.
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Mr. STERN. So you estimate
not more than 20 minutes?
Mr. SORRELS. I don't believe it could have been more than 20 or 25
minutes at the very most.
Mr. STERN. Then you arrived at the
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; there were officers. I recall seeing officers. I could
not say any specific one.
Now, as I came into the back of the building, there was a colored man
standing on the rear platform, a loading platform. And he was just standing
there looking off into the distance. I don't think he knew what happened.
And I said to him, "Did you see anyone run out the back?"
He said, "No, sir."
"Did you see anyone leave the back way?"
"No, sir."
Mr. STERN. Did you get his name?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; I did not. I did not stop to do that, because I
figured he was an employee of the building.
I went on the inside of the building and asked someone for the manager
and they pointed to Mr. Truly.
I identified myself to Mr. Truly.
Mr. STERN. Just a minute.
Did you establish how long that man had been on the loading platform?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. STERN. There was no policeman stationed at the loading platform when
you came up?
Mr. SORRELS. I did not see one; no, sir.
Mr. STERN. And you were able to enter the building without identifying
yourself?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Then you got inside the building and what did you do?
Mr. SORRELS. I asked for the manager, and I was directed to Mr. Truly. He
was standing there.
I went up and identified myself to him. I said, "I want to get a
stenographer, and we would like to have you put down the names and addresses of
every employee of the building, in the building."
And I then walked on out the front door and asked, "Did anyone here
see anything?"
And someone pointed to Mr. Brennan.
Mr. STERN. What was your purpose in asking for a list of the employees of
the building?
Mr. SORRELS. Because I knew that they would have to be interviewed. I was
trying to establish at that time without any delay, who all was in that building
or was employed there, because I knew they would have to be talked to later.
In other words, I was looking for someone that saw something.
Mr. STERN. You were looking for potential witnesses?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. And at that time you had no basis for suspecting any employee
might be involved one way or the other?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; and I did not know at that time that the shots came
from the building.
When I was--when Mr. Brennan was pointed out to me, I went up and told
him who I was and asked him if he saw anything. And he told me what he had seen.
And, at that time, that is the first time that I knew definitely that any shots
had come from the building.
Mr. STERN. Now, what precisely did Mr. Brennan tell you?
Mr. SORRELS. Mr. Brennan said that he was standing across the street,
watching the parade, and that he, of course, was looking in the direction where
the President was, and he heard a sound which he thought at first was a backfire
of an automobile. And that shortly afterwards there was another sound, and that
he thought that somebody might be throwing firecrackers out of the building.
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And he glanced up to the building, and that he saw a man at the window on
the right-hand side, the second floor from the top.
And he said, "I could see the man taking deliberate aim and saw him
fire the third shot," and said then he just pulled the rifle back in and
moved back from the window, just as unconcerned as could be.
Mr. STERN. How did you happen to talk to Mr. Brennan?
Mr. SORRELS. I asked--I don't know who, someone there "Is there
anyone here that saw anything?" And someone said, "That man over
there."
He was out in front of the building and I went right to him.
Mr. STERN. Did Mr. Brennan tell you anything else?
Mr. SORRELS. I asked him whether or not he thought he could identify the
person that he saw, and he, of course, gave me a description of him, said that
he appeared to be a slender man, he had on what appeared to be a light jacket or
shirt or something to that effect, and that he thought he could identify
him--said he was slender build. Because I was definitely interested in someone
that had seen something that could give us some definite information.
And I also asked if he had seen anybody else, and he pointed to a young
colored boy there, by the name of Euins. And I got him and Mr. Brennan, and I
took them over to the sheriff's office where we could get statements from them.
Mr. STERN. What was the name of that young man?
Mr. SORRELS. Euins, I believe it is, or pretty close to that.
Mr. STERN. Did you interview Mr. Euins?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; I did. And he also said that he had heard the
noise there, and that he had looked up and saw the man at the window with the
rifle, and I asked him if he could identify the person, and he said, no, he
couldn't, he said he couldn't tell whether he was colored or white.
Mr. STERN. Do you remember anything unusual about the way Mr. Brennan was
dressed?
Mr. SORRELS. He was dressed as a workman, or a laborer, and he had on a
hard hat.
Mr. STERN. Construction hat?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Did Mr. Brennan tell you anything else about anything else he
had observed at that time?
Mr. SORRELS. I can't recall any specific thing.
Mr. STERN. Did he mention seeing any other person or persons in the
windows of the
Mr. SORRELS. I don't recall whether he did or did not.
Mr. STERN. Did he say anything about observing anyone leave the
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. STERN. Did he point out to you precisely the window from which he
said he saw the shot fired, the window in which he saw the sniper?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Where was that window in relation to the windows at which you
saw several Negro men as you drove on
Mr. SORRELS. It was one floor above and a little bit to the right, as I
recall it.
Mr. STERN. Can you give us these directions in terms of compass points?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. That would be on the east side of the building.
Mr. STERN. So the window that Mr. Brennan pointed out to you was on the
extreme east side?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. And the window or windows at which you had observed several
Negro men was more to the west?
Mr. SORRELS. A little bit more to the west--not very much--but to the
west, on the floor below.
Mr. STERN. Are you certain in your mind about the floor below?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, I am.
Mr. STERN. Is there any particular reason for that? You said before that
you essentially glanced at the building, and didn't have very long to observe
it, and you saw these men at the window.
What makes you certain about placing the men on any particular floor?
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Mr. SORRELS. Well, because I remember that they were not near the top---I
can just remember that--it seemed to me like two floors down from the top, as I
recall having seen them. And, of course, when I got back to the building down
there, there were windows open on the floor below at the place where I recall
having seen the colored men.
Mr. STERN. So it was the open window afterwards that helped you recall?
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. STERN. And are you certain that those were the same open windows?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, I think they were. I don't have any reason to think
otherwise.
Mr. STERN. Then you
accompanied Brennan and Euins where?
Mr. SORRELS. To the sheriff's
office, which was right across the street from the Book Depository.
Mr. STERN. Did you have any further conversation withe them on the way
over there?
Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes; we discussed--I was talking to him on the way over
there about what they saw and observed, and told them we would like to come in
there where we could get their statements down in writing.
Mr. STERN. Did they tell you anything that you have not already told us?
Mr. SORRELS. Not that I recall.
The little colored boy mentioned he was there with another colored boy
that ran off when this thing happened--at the first shot this boy ran off. He
said he stayed there, but the other boy ran off. I didn't make any effort to get
touch with him, because he apparently saw nothing.
Mr. STERN. Then you took them into the sheriff's office?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. What was going on in the sheriff's office?
Mr. SORRELS. At that time one of the deputy sheriffs was in the
interrogation room taking a statement from some witness there. And I did not
want to just stay there and wait too long, so I asked him would he also write up
the statements on it--Mr. Brennan and the colored boy. And I then started out in
the hall of the sheriff's office there with the idea of going back to see if I
could locate other witnesses, when Chief Deputy Sheriff Mr. Allan Sweatt told me
there was another witness across the hallway, near Mr. Sweatt's office he is the
polygraph operator there, and his office is not in the same area as the
sheriff's office but across the hall--that there was an FBI agent taking. a
statement over there from a person.
So I accompanied him over there and hadn't been in there but just a few
minutes until Mr. Sweat came and called me out and says "Forrest, there are
some people here I think you ought to talk to."
Mr. STERN. Whose statement was being taken by the FBI?
Mr. SORRELS. I don't recall. And, at that time----
Mr. STERN. Do you recall what their statement was--what their testimony
was?
Mr. SORRELS. No, I don't, because I wasn't in there but just a very short
time. And this FBI agent was questioning about what they had seen and so forth.
I don't recall--it was being taken down at the time.
So I went out, and they had Mr. and Mrs. Arnold there. And Mr. Arnold, a
young man, and his wife, very young, said that they were standing on the side of
the street on Houston Street, there by the courthouse building, and that
they--this is prior to the time of the arrival of the President there, some 20
to 25 minutes beforehand, he said.
Mr. STERN. This is the east side?
Mr. SORRELS. That would be the east side of
Mr. STERN. Are you certain about the name of this couple? I believe you
said
Mr. SORRELS. Well----
Mr. STERN. Could that have been his first name?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, that could have been his first name.
Mr. STERN. Can you recall his second name?
Mr. SORRELS. I would know it if I heard it.
Mr. STERN. Could it have been Roland?
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Mr. SORRELS. Yes, Roland is right.
Mr. STERN. What did they tell you?
Mr. SORRELS. He said that they were standing there waiting for the
President to come by, and they were talking about security. And he said that
right after that, that he looked up at this building over there, which is the
Book Depository, and that there were a couple of windows open towards the west
side, and that he saw a man standing in there with what appeared to be a rifle
with a telescopic sight.
Mr. STERN. Towards the west side?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes--two windows towards the west side.
And that he remarked to his wife, "I guess that is a Secret Service
man."
And I asked her if she saw it, and she said, no, that she had left her
glasses home, and she is nearsighted, and she could not see him. And, of course,
I asked him the description of the man. I asked him "How could you
determine what made you think it had a telescopic sight on it?"
He said, "Well, it seemed like it was wider on the light
background."
I said, "How was he holding it?"
He said, port arms--he was standing several feet back away from the
window. And I asked him, "Could you identify that man?"
He said, "No, I could not."
Mr. STERN. Did Mrs. Roland confirm that he had discussed this with her?
Mr. SORRELS. She confirmed the conversation, but she said she could not
see anything, because she didn't have her glasses.
Mr. STERN. Did Mr. Roland tell you he had seen anyone else in the windows
of the
Mr. SORRELS. I don't recall that he did. I don't recall that at all. He
may have, but I don't recall that.
Mr. STERN. Did he mention anyone on the sixth floor, and particularly on
the extreme east side of the sixth floor?
Mr. SORRELS. No, I don't recall that he mentioned anyone there.
Mr. STERN. What was your impression of what he told you?
Mr. SORRELS. Well, of course, the thing that hit me first thing is
why--he was right there by the sheriff's office, if he had just gone in there
and said, "Look, I saw a man with a rifle over there."
I said, "Why didn't you say something to somebody about it?"
He said, "I just thought he was a Secret Service man."
And at that time he appeared to be, as far as I was concerned, truthful
about the matter.
Mr. STERN. You didn't have any reason to doubt him?
Mr. SORRELS. No.
Mr. STERN. And would the same be true of what Mr. Brennan told you, and
Euins?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Did you look towards the window that Roland had pointed out
from the spot at which he said he was standing, to see whether it was possible
to observe from there someone standing several feet back from the window? Did
you have occasion to check that?
Mr. SORRELS. Well, no, not specifically.
Later on I heard that he had--I believe in his statement that he wrote up
down there at the sheriff's office, something about 15 feet back. And I thought
to myself, well, I don't think you could see anybody that far back.
Mr. STERN. But he didn't tell you that?
Mr. SORRELS. No, he just said he was standing back of the window there,
just kind of looking around there. He said after he saw him there, he didn't pay
any more attention, because he just thought it was a Secret Service man.
Mr. STERN. What happened next?
Mr. SORRELS. There was another witness there that I started talking to--I
don't recall the name now, because I told him to go in--somebody that saw a
truck down there this is before the parade ever got there that apparently had
stalled down there on Elm Street. And I later checked on that, and found out
that the car had gone dead, apparently belonged to some construction
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company,
and that a police officer had come down there, and they had gone to the
construction company and gotten somebody to come down and get the car out of the
way.
Apparently it was just a car stalled down there.
But this lady said she thought she saw somebody that looked like they had
a guncase. But then I didn't pursue that any further-- because then I had gotten
the information that the rifle had been found in the building and shells and so
forth.
At that time Mr. Harry McCormack, who is a reporter for the Dallas
Morning News, and whom I have known for many years, came to me and says,
"Forrest, I have something over here you ought to know about."
I said, "What have you got here?"
He said, "I have a man over here that got pictures of this whole
thing."
I said, "Let's go see him."
So we went on to a building at the corner of Elm and Houston, on the east
side of Houston, and across the street from the court house building there, up
to the office of a Mr. Zapruder, they have a dress manufacturing place there in
that building. And he was there with another man connected with the business
there, and apparently some magazine representatives there. And Mr Zapruder was
real shook up. He said that he didn't know how in the world he had taken these
pictures, that he was down there and was taking the thing there, and he says,
"My God, I saw the whole thing. I saw the man's brains come out of his
head."
And so I asked Mr. Zapruder would it be possible for us to get a copy of
those films.
He said, yes.
So then accompanied by Mr. Zapruder, and this other gentleman in the
business there with him, whose name I don't recall at the moment, and Mr.
McCormack, we went then to the Dallas Morning News Building, which is about
three blocks from Mr. Zapruder's building, three or four blocks from there, with
the idea of getting those films developed right away.
There was no one there that would tackle the job. We then went to the
television section, WFAA, of the Dallas Morning News, to see if we could get
them to handle it there, and they said, no, they would not attempt to do that,
but they did assist us by calling Eastman Kodak Co., and they said if we came
out there right away, that they would get right on it.
We got a police car, and went right on out to the Eastman Kodak Co., and
while there I met another gentleman who had seen some still pictures, and
arranged with him for us to get copies of those.
Mr. STERN. What was his name---do you recall?
Mr. SORRELS. He is a salesman for the Ford Co. on
And so he said, yes, that he would be glad to furnish me with a copy of
the pictures.
At that time, I made a phone call to my office, because I had not been in
contact with them since we had departed from Love Field. I was informed that an
FBI agent had called the office and said that Captain Fritz of the Homicide
Bureau had been trying to get in touch with me, that he had a suspect in
custody.
Mr. STERN. About what time was that?
Mr. SORRELS. That would be fairly close to 2 o'clock, I imagine.
Mr. STERN. About an hour after you had returned----
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. I would say that it was at least that long--maybe a
little bit longer.
So when I got that information, I told Mr. Zapruder that I would contact
him later and get the pictures, because I wanted to get right down to Captain
Fritz' office.
So I left then with the same police car and had them take me to Captain
Fritz' office.
And upon arrival there, there was many officers around there, there was
already cameras out in the hall, tripods, and so forth, and all of the city hall
down there. And .there was a number of officers in the detective bureau
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office
there, and Captain Fritz' office, which is an office within the large office,
was closed, and the blinds were drawn in his office there.
I did not knock on the door or anything, because I did not want to
interfere with him if he was talking to someone. So I just waited there until
Captain Fritz opened the door, and he had a man who I later found out to be
Oswald in custody at the time.
And I told Captain Fritz, I said, "Captain, I would like to talk to
this man when I have an opportunity."
He said, "You can talk to him right now."
And he just took him on back around to the side of Captain Fritz' office,
and there was a number of other officers there, might have been some FBI agents
too, there, because there were numbers of FBI agents around in that vicinity
almost all the time from that time on. And some of the detectives there.
And I started talking to Oswald, started asking him some questions, and
he was arrogant and a belligerent attitude about him.
And he said to me, "I don't know who you fellows are, a bunch of
cops."
And I said, "Well, I will tell you who I am. My name is Sorrels and
I am with the
I held it out in front of him and he said, "I don't want to look at
it."
And he held his head up and wouldn't look at it at all. And he said, What
am I going to be charged with? Why am I being held here? Isn't someone supposed
to tell me what my rights are?"
I said, "Yes, I will tell you what your rights are. Your rights are
the same as that of any American citizen. You do not have to make a statement
unless you want to. You have the right to get an attorney."
"Aren't you supposed to get me an attorney?"
"No, I am not supposed to get you an attorney."
"Aren't you supposed go get me an attorney?"
I said, "No, I am not supposed to get you an attorney, because if I
got you an attorney, they would say I was probably getting a rakeoff on the
fee," or words to that effect, and kind of smiled and tried to break the
ice a little bit there.
I said, "You can have the telephone book and you can call anybody
you want to."
I said, "I just want to ask you some questions. I am in on this
investigation. I just want to ask you some questions."
Mr. STERN. Was there anything further said about an attorney?
Mr. SORRELS. Not that I recall at that time. I don't recall anything
further said about an attorney. I asked him where he worked. He told me worked
at this Book Depository. And as I recall it, I asked him what his address was
and where he was living, and he explained to me that he was living apart from
his wife, and that she was living over in Irving, Tex. I asked him, as I
recall it, what his duties were at this Book Depository, and he said
filling orders. I asked him if he had occasion to be on more than one floor, and
he said, yes.
I asked him if he had occasion to be on the sixth floor of the building.
He said, yes, because they fill orders from all the floors.
But he said most of his activity was down on the first floor.
And I think I asked him whether or not he had ever been in a foreign
country and he said that he had traveled in Europe, but more time had been spent
in the
And then he just said "I don't care to answer any more
questions."
And so the conversation was terminated.
Mr. STERN. Did he give you his address?
Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, he did give me an address. I don't remember
what it was offhand.
Mr. STERN. Then were you finished with your questions, or did he refuse
to answer any more?
Mr. SORRELS. He just said, "I don't care to answer any more
questions."
Mr. STERN. You wanted to ask him other questions?
Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes.
Mr. STERN. And what happened then?
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Mr. SORRELS. He was taken by the officers, as I recall it, and was taken
out of that area and I suppose put back in jail.
Mr. STERN. Did you then talk to Captain Fritz?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. As I recall it, I asked Captain Fritz whether or not he
had gotten anything out of him or not, and Captain Fritz said that he hadn't
been able--that he had not made any admissions or anything like that at that
time, and that he was going to talk to him again.
That is all I recall that transpired at that time.
Of course I contacted the Chief's office, when I got that information as
to who he was, and gave that information to them.
Mr. STERN. This is Chief Rowley?
Mr. SORRELS. I think I talked to Deputy Chief Paterni.
Mr. STERN. Of the Secret Service here in
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Did anything else transpire between that time and the Friday
night showup?
Mr. SORRELS. I did not talk to Oswald again, and I was around there. When
I contacted
I also got information to Captain Fritz that I had this witness, Brennan,
that I had talked to, and that I would like very much for him to get a chance to
see Oswald in a lineup. And Captain Fritz said that would be fine.
So I instructed Special Agent Patterson, I believe it was, after I had
located Brennan---had quite a difficult time to locate him, because he wasn't at
home. And they finally prevailed upon his wife to try to help me locate him, and
she, as I recall it, said that she would see if she could locate him by phone. I
called her, I believe, the second time and finally got a phone number and called
him and told him we would like for him to come down and arrange for him to meet
one of our agents to pick him up at the place there. And when they came down
there with him, I got ahold of Captain Fritz and told him that the witness was
there, Mr. Brennan.
He said, "I wish he would have been here a little sooner, we just
got through with a lineup. But we will get another fixed up."
So I took Mr. Brennan, and we went to the assembly room, which is also
where they have the lineup, and Mr. Brennan, upon arrival at the police station,
said, "I don't know if I can do you any good or not, because I have seen
the man that they have under arrest on television," and he said. "I
just don't know whether I can identify him positively or not" because he
said that the man on television was a bit disheveled and his shirt was open or
something like that, and he said "The man I saw was not in that
condition."
So when we got to the assembly room, Mr. Brennan said he would like to
get quite a ways back, because he would like to get as close to the distance
away from where he saw this man at the time that the shooting took place as he
could.
And I said, "Well, we will get you clear on to the back and then we
can move up forward."
They did bring Oswald in in a lineup.
He looked very carefully, and then we rooted him up closer and so forth,
and he said, "I cannot positively say."
I said, "Well, is there anyone there that looks like him?"
He said, "Well, that second man from the left," who was
Oswald--"he looks like him."
Then he repeated that the man he saw was not disheveled.
Now, mind you, Oswald had a slight wound over here, and he had a black
eye, a bruised eye.
Mr. STERN. When you say "over here"----
Mr. SORRELS. Oh, on the left side. He had a mark on his forehead, and his
left eye was a bit puffed.
Mr. STERN. How many other people were in the lineup?
Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, there were five. In other words, all told
there was five or six--I don't remember. I believe there were five.
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Mr. STERN. Were the others reasonably similar to Oswald in height and
physical appearance, and color?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. STERN. Dress?
Mr. SORRELS. I noted that to me I thought it was a very fair lineup,
because they didn't have anyone that was a lot taller than he was, or anyone a
lot shorter. They didn't have any big fat ones or anything like that.
In other words, to me it was a good lineup.
Mr. STERN. At that time, did Mr. Brennan say anything else to you that
you have not told us, or to anyone else?
Mr. SORRELS. Not that I recall. He says, "I am sorry, but I can't do
it. I was afraid seeing the television might have messed me up. I just can't be
positive. I am sorry."
Mr. STERN. As far as you know, had Mr. Brennan been interviewed by anyone
after he gave his statement to the deputy sheriff until the time you had him
brought to the police headquarters?
Mr. SORRELS. No; not to my knowledge.
Mr. STERN. Was he then interviewed by anyone?
Mr. SORRELS. I couldn't say.
Mr. STERN. Did you arrange for him to return to his home?
Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, I did. I told him "they will take you
back to your home."
Mr. STERN. Immediately after the lineup?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Have you ever spoken to Mr. Brennan again after that day?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; I have.
Mr. STERN. When was that?
Mr. SORRELS. We were assisting the Commission in locating witnesses to
come to
Mr. STERN. And when you talked to him then, did he say anything that
bears upon our inquiry that he hadn't said before?
Mr. SORRELS. Not that I recall.
Mr. STERN. Mr. Sorrels, when you were at the police headquarters, after
this interview with Oswald that you have told us about, do you recall talking to
any representative of the FBI?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. STERN. Who was that?
Mr. SORRELS. Now, let's get that question again, because I talked to them
several times down there.
When was that you said?
Mr. STERN. After you interviewed Oswald.
Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes, yes.
Mr. STERN. Do you know an FBI agent attached to the
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. STERN. Did you talk to Mr. Hosty that you recall?
Mr. SORRELS. Not that I recall; no, sir.
Mr. STERN. Might you have spoken to him, or do you think you would
remember that?
Mr. SORRELS. I think I would remember it.
Mr. STERN. Do you recall his being there?
Mr. SORRELS. I think I saw him there.
Now, whether it was on the 22d or not, but I think during along this
period, I saw him there one time.
But I don't recall talking to Mr. Hosty at all down there.
Mr. STERN. Did any of the agents attached to your office tell you that
they had talked to Hosty? Or that Hosty had told them anything?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; I think Special Agent Patterson, I believe, said that
he had seen Hosty down there, and that Hosty, I believe, had said that he had a
file on Oswald.
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Mr. STERN. Do you recall anything else that Agent Patterson told you that
Mr. Hosty had told him?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I cannot recall anything else. Because I had
information--had also gotten information from others. In other words, there was
general information around the Police Department there that the FBI had a file
on this individual.
Mr. STERN. Any other of your agents tell you that Hosty had said anything
to them about Oswald that you can recall?
Mr. SORRELS. You mean at that specific date, regarding that specific
date?
Mr. STERN. Either on Friday or on Saturday.
Mr. SORRELS. No. During the course of this thing, it was my understanding
that--I don't remember how the information came to me---that Hosty had been
checking on this Oswald, and that they had information or knew that he was in
this building. I cannot pinpoint it any way specifically, because the
information came several different times to that effect.
Mr. STERN. Now, you told us something of Oswald's physical appearance
when you saw him at the interview.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. And at the showup.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Did his appearance change in the course of that time?
Mr. SORRELS. Not that I recall.
Mr. STERN. Over that 3-day period, did you see any sign that force or any
other form of coercion was used on Oswald by anyone?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. STERN. Did you observe or hear of any intimidation of Oswald or the
offer of any benefit to Oswald if he were to confess?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. STERN. Did you participate in or observe any other interrogation of
Oswald following your own brief interrogation?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. When was that?
Mr. SORRELS. On the following day----
Mr. STERN. That is Saturday, the 23d?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; I sat in on part of an interview with him, with
Captain Fritz. And then, again, on Sunday the 24th, just before he was shot.
Mr. STERN. Did the question of counsel come up again--that is, a lawyer
for Oswald?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. During the interview with Captain Fritz, when I was in
there, he mentioned the fact that he wanted to get a man by the name of Abt, or
some similar name like that. I never had heard of him before. Apt, or some
similar name.
And Captain Fritz said, "Well you can use the phone and you can call
him."
Mr. STERN. When was this?
Mr. SORRELS. That was Saturday morning. And it is my understanding that
Oswald did attempt to reach this man on the phone.
Mr. STERN. But you didn't observe it?
Mr. SORRELS. I did not observe that; no.
Mr. STERN. Did you hear him mention at any time a lawyer from the
American Civil Liberties
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. He said if he could not get this man--I wish I could
remember his name a very short name, Apt or something like that.
Mr. STERN. A-b-t?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, A-b-t. Yes--if he couldn't get him, he wanted a lawyer
supplied by the Civil Liberties
Mr. STERN. What else occurred at the interview on Saturday that you can
remember?
Mr. SORRELS. He was questioned abut the rifle, because, at that time, as
I recall it, it had been determined that the rifle had been purchased from
Kleins in Chicago, and shipped to a person using the name of A. Hidell. And he
was questioned by Captain Fritz along those lines. And he denied that the rifle
was his. He denied knowing or using the name of A. Hidell, or Alek Hidell.
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He was, of course, questioned about his background and he at that time
still maintained an arrogant, defiant attitude. The questions were, of course,
directed towards getting information. A lot of them he would not answer. And a
lot of the answers, of course, were apparent falsehoods.
And he gave me the impression of lying to Captain Fritz, and deliberately
doing so, maybe with an attempt to get Captain Fritz to become angered, because
he, Oswald, would flare up in an angry manner from time to time.
Mr. STERN. But you think that was acting--not genuine?
Mr. SORRELS. That is the impression I got, that he was just deliberately
doing that, possibly to agitate Captain Fritz and maybe get him to become angry,
and maybe do or say something that he shouldn't do.
That is just the impression I gained from him. And the reason--I guess
one reason I gained that impression is because on the last interview, on Sunday
morning, Oswald seemed to have taken a little bit different attitude. In other
words, he was talking a little bit freer--he wasn't giving out any information
of any value particularly, but he wasn't flaring up like he did before.
Mr. STERN. Was that Sunday interview extended beyond any time that you
know of that it was scheduled to end?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; it was, because the papers seemed to have gotten the
impression that he was going to be moved at exactly 10 o'clock in the morning,
and Captain Fritz was talking to him even after 11 o'clock in the morning--we
were still there. And I recall that Chief Curry came around and asked Captain
Fritz how long he was going to be, or what was holding it up, or something like
that, that they wanted to go ahead and get him moved as quick as they could.
Mr. STERN. Did he indicate or did you understand that they wanted to move
him at 10 o'clock?
Mr. SORRELS. It was after 10 o'clock then, considerably. As a matter of
fact, it was after 11 at that time. Captain Fritz remarked to me afterwards, he
said, "Well, as long as it looks like he might talk, I hesitate to quit, or
move him out at that time," and he told Chief Curry, "We will be
through in a few minutes."
And shortly after that, Captain Fritz asked if anyone wanted to ask him
any questions, and, at that time, the postal inspector had obtained a change of
address card which Oswald had apparently filled out in which one of the names
shown on that change of address card that was to receive mail at that particular
address in New Orleans was named A. Hidell. And I desired to question Oswald
about that thing, because he had denied purchasing this rifle under the name of
A. Hidell, and he denied knowing anybody by the name of A. Hidell.
So I showed Oswald this change of address card and said to him,
"Now, here is a change of address card that you filed in
He did not deny that he had filed the card, because it was apparently in
his handwriting, and his signature. And I said, "Now you say that you have
not used the name of A. Hidell, but you show it on this card here as the name of
A. Hidell, as a person to receive mail at this address. If you do not know
anyone by that name, why would you have that name on that card?"
He said, "I never used the name of Hidell."
Mr. STERN. That was the last question he was asked?
Mr. SORRELS. As far as I know.
Mr. STERN. And then what happened?
Mr. SORRELS. He was told that they were going to move him to the county
jail, and he requested that he be permitted to get a shirt out of his--the
clothes that had been brought in, that belonged to him, because the shirt he was
wearing at the time he had been apprehended was taken, apparently for laboratory
examination. And so Captain Fritz sent and got his clothes and, as I recall it,
he selected a dark colored kind of a sweater type shirt, as I recall it. And
then he was taken out, and, at that time, as I recall it, Inspector Kelley and I
left and went up to---I say up---down the hall to the executive office area of
the police department, and to the office of Deputy Chief Batchelor.
And we remained in that vicinity. I looked out the window, and saw the
people across the street, on
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as
Honest Joe, that has a second-hand tool and pawnshop down on
And for a few minutes I was talking to one of the police officers that
was on duty up there in that area. And he had made the remark, "talking
about open windows, I see one open
across the street over there" at a building across the street.
I looked over there. I didn't see any activity at the window. And we had
walked out into the reception area of the executive office of the Chief of
Police there when this same police officer said that he just heard that Oswald
had got shot in the stomach in the basement by Jack Rubin, as I understood at
that time, R-u-b-i-n--who was supposed to run a night club.
Inspector Kelley and I then went just as hurriedly as we could to the
basement.
Mr. STERN. As I understand it, Mr. Sorrels, you covered all the relevant
information from this point of time on with Mr. Hubert yesterday.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. And actually back just a little bit.
Mr. STERN. Is there anything that has occurred to you since your
interview with Mr. Hubert that you would like to add now, to amplify anything
you said yesterday to him?
Mr. SORRELS. We were trying to establish something about the time
yesterday morning that this transpired and so forth. And I could not fix any
exact time.
But knowing the fact that Oswald, I believe, is reported to have been
shot at 11:21, I believe it is, and the fact that when we got into the basement
of the City Hall there at a time when Oswald was still on the floor there, and
was being given artificial respiration, as I said yesterday, and I immediately
called my headquarters office in Washington and told them about Oswald being
shot by Jack Rubin, a night club operator. And they asked me, of course, to get
additional information and call them back.
And from that telephone call, which went through very rapidly, I went
back upstairs--didn't tarry there at all. And Oswald was still there when I left
and went back upstairs to Captain Fritz' office, because my thought was to talk
to this man Jack Rubin as fast as I could.
Captain Fritz was not there. They said he went to the hospital. I asked
where Ruby was. They said he was up on the fifth floor. I said I would
like to talk to him. And I was sent with an officer to the jail elevator, went
right on up there. So----
Mr. STERN. Have you been able to establish the time of your phone call to
Deputy Chief----
Mr. SORRELS. No, I have not been able to establish it. But after thinking
the thing over, and the fact that Oswald was still there at the time this call
was made, I would say that that phone call was probably made between 11:25 and
11:30, I would say.
Mr. STERN. Fine.
Mr. Sorrels had you discussed with any official of the Dallas Police the
plans to move Oswald during a scheduled daylight hour, before the move was made?
Mr. SORRELS. When I heard that he was supposed to be moved at 10 o'clock
in the morning, I said to Captain Fritz--and as I recall this conversation--I
said to him, "Captain, I wouldn't move that man at an announced time. I
would take him out at 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning, when there is nobody
around."
And Captain Fritz said, "Well, the chief has gone along with these
people," talking about the press and television people, and said that he
wanted to continue going along with them and cooperating with them all he can.
And that was all that was said about that.
I did not make that suggestion, or have a conversation like that with
Chief Curry, as I recall, because I did not want to appear that I was trying to
tell them how to run their business.
Mr. STERN. What were conditions like in the third floor corridor of
police headquarters from Friday through Sunday?
Mr. SORRELS. Mr. Stern, you would almost have to be there to see it, to
actually realize the conditions. The press and the television people just, as
the
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expression
goes, took over. I would almost every time I went up there, definitely after the
22d, I would have to identify myself to get in past the entrance of the elevator
on the third floor, if I was going to the chief's office or the deputy chief's
office or Captain Fritz' office. You would have to elbow your way through, and
step over tripods and cables and wires, and every time almost that I would come
out of Captain Fritz's office, the minute the door opened, they would flash on
those bright lights, and I got where I just shadowed my eyes when I walked down
there to keep the light from shining in my eyes. They had cables run through one
of the deputy chief's office, right through the windows from the street up the
side of the building, across the floor, out to the boxes where they could get
power--they had wires running out of that, had the wires taped down to keep
people from actually falling or stumbling over the wires. And it was just a
condition that you can hardly explain. It was just almost indescribable.
I know at one time when Mr. Jim Underwood of KRLD, that is the Dallas
Time Herald Television Station down there, was in Captain Fritz' office with
Jack Ruby's sister, and a lady friend of hers, trying to arrange for her to get
up to talk to Jack Ruby, that the police officer who was stationed at the door
to the detective's office had a terrific time keeping them--I thought they were
going to barge on in there. They were yelling like mad--because Mr. Underwood
was in there, and one of them was there yelling--"if he has got a right to
be in here, we have a right to be in there."
Just as loud as he could. And Mr. Underwood had to leave Captain Fritz'
office and say, "Listen, fellows, I am not going upstairs. I am trying to
make arrangements for this woman to see her brother--I am not going
upstairs."
That was just the situation you were booked up against there.
And, of course, every time you would turn around, they would ask me
something, and I would say, "No comment, I don't have any comment to
make."
And I don't think at any time you will see that there is any statement
made by the newspapers or television that we said anything because Mr. Kelley,
the Inspector, told me "Any information that is given out will have to come
from Inspector Peterson in Washington."
Finally, after they found out I would not say anything, they didn't
bother me any more.
Many times when I would be going into the third floor area there, they
would start to stop me, and a lot of the guys that would know me would say,
"That is Sorrels of the Secret Service."
That happened more than once.
And, of course, I would have to go ahead and identify myself. The
officers that were on duty that had seen me before would recognize me and pass
me through.
Mr. STERN. Can you estimate how many press representatives there were in
that corridor?
Mr. SORRELS. I am not too good in estimating anything like that, but
there were dozens of them.
Mr. STERN. Was any effort made to restrict them to a far part of the
corridor, or to remove them from the floor entirely that you know of?
Mr. SORRELS. Not that I know of.
Mr. STERN. Did you ever learn why this was not done did you ever ask?
Mr. SORRELS. No, I did not. I just thought to myself--well, if this was
being handled in a Federal building, this situation would not exist. That is
what I thought.
But, of course, that is a public building. I thought to myself--well,
they are in here, and the chief would have a heck of a time getting them out
That is just my own thoughts about the thing, because I do know that the Dallas
Police Department, the Dallas Sheriff's Office, they do try to go along with the
press and everything like that.
After this thing happened, Mr. Felix McKnight, who I mentioned before,
who is a personal friend of mine, executive editor of the Dallas Times Herald,
he said to me, "Forrest, those people should have been out of there, and
that includes us."
Of course the thing was all over then. I would imagine that Chief Curry
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or
anybody else that would have tried to have gotten them out of there would have
really had a tough time and they probably would have really blasted them in the
press.
Mr. STERN. Mr. Sorrels, that covers the ground that I wanted to ask you
about.
Is there anything you would like to add to anything you said this morning
with respect to the advance preparations, the actual events in front of Book
Depository, your return there, anything that elapsed while you were at the
police headquarters from Friday afternoon through Sunday morning or with respect
to anything you told Mr. Hubert about yesterday?
Just take a moment and think about it.
And if there is anything you would like to amplify or add to what you
have said that you think the Commission should know, please tell me.
Mr. SORRELS. I cannot recall anything right now, Mr. Stern.
Mr. STERN. I would like you to identify this one page memorandum entitled
"Statement of Forrest V. Sorrels, Special Agent in
I have marked this "Exhibit 5," deposition of F. V. Sorrels,
May 7, 1964.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; that is a copy of a statement that I wrote up.
Mr. STERN. Would you initial that for me, please?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. STERN. Would you review the statement and see if there is anything
you would like to add to it?
I think you might just tell us what it covers.
Mr. SORRELS. This is a statement which was written up by me on November
28, 1963, relating the fact that the presidential motorcade----
Mr. STERN. The statement will be in the record, Mr. Sorrels. I meant just
tell us the subject matter of it.
Mr. SORRELS. Relating to the events that I observed when the presidential
motorcade went from Love Field until the time that I left the
Mr. STERN. Is there anything you want to add to that statement that you
have not already told us--because we have gone into this in much greater detail
now.
Mr. SORRELS. No, not that I can recall, because as you say we went into
it in more detail.
Mr. STERN. Thank you very much, Mr. Sorrels. We appreciate very much your
coming to
Mr. SORRELS. I want to express my appreciation to you and to the
Commission for permitting me to not come on the week of the 19th, due to 'the
fact that my little daughter had to go to the hospital. I certainly appreciate
your consideration in letting me come at a later date.
Mr. STERN. We were very happy we could arrange that, and we are glad to
know she is well.
Mr. SORRELS. Thank you, sir.
SORRELS
Volume XIII pages 55-83
TESTIMONY
OF FORREST V. SORRELS
The testimony of Forrest V. Sorrels was taken at 1 p.m., on May 6, 1964,
at 200
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Sorrels, my name is Leon Hubert. I will be taking your
deposition this afternoon, and so will Mr. Samuel Stern. We are both members of
the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President's Commission, that is
to say Mr. Rankin.
Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963,
the Joint Resolution of Congress, No. 137, and rules of procedure adopted by the
Commission in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution,
both Mr. Stern and I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you,
Mr. Sorrels. Of course you will take an oath a little later on. Is it understood
between us that this statement of my authority and of Mr. Stern's authority is
sufficient to carry for both depositions--in other words, it will be really a
continuation of the deposition by Mr. Stern on another area.
Is that understood?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it understood also that the oath you are going to take
will be applicable to the testimony elicited from you by me, as well as that
elicited from you by Mr. Stern?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I state to you now that the general nature of the
Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts
relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent
death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Sorrels, the nature of
the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald
and other pertinent facts which you may know about the general inquiry.
Mr. Sorrels, you have appeared today by virtue of a verbal request made
by us at the direction of the General Counsel. Under the rules adopted by the
Cornmission,
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O---64---vol.XIII----5
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all
witnesses are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of their
deposition. But the rules also provide that a witness may waive this notice. I
ask you now if you are willing to waive the 3-day written notice provided for by
the rules of the Commission.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Then I will ask you to stand and be sworn. Do you
solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. SORRELS. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name.
Mr. SORRELS. Forrest V. Sorrels.
Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, Mr. Sorrels?
Mr. SORRELS. Sixty-three.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside now?
Mr. SORRELS. 3319 Hanover,
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?
Mr. SORRELS. Special agent in charge of the
Mr. HUBERT. Now, before I go any further, I should like the record to
show that Mr. Fred B. Smith----
Mr. SMITH.
Mr. HUBERT. Is present--in what capacity?
Mr. SMITH. I guess observer on behalf of the Secretary of Treasury.
Mr. HUBERT. And Mr. Burt Griffin, also a member of the staff of the
General Counsel of the President's Commission, is also present.
Now, Mr. Sorrels, I would like for you to state to us the general
background, your history, sort of a biographical sketch, if you will, starting
off with your education and on to date.
Mr. SORRELS. I was born in
I went to
Mr. HUBERT. What year was that, sir?
Mr. SORRELS. That was in 1922. I worked there for about a year and went
back to the brick company. I was only there a short time when I learned of a
clerical position in the office of the
In 1926, the special agent in charge was transferred from there, and
prior to that time I had been appointed as what was known at that time as an
operative, which is comparable to our special agent of today. He transferred
from there to
In 1938, the headquarters office was moved from
I have continued in that capacity as special agent in charge of the
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Mr. HUBERT. So that you have been special agent in charge actually of the
Mr. SORRELS. Actually--it was in my territory since 1935, but the office
was moved back there in 1941, and I have been there ever since.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have lived there.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What does the
Mr. SORRELS. Roughly it consists of the northern half of
Mr. HUBERT. By divisions, you mean divisions in the
Mr. SORRELS. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. How many men do you have?
Mr. SORRELS. At the present time we have six special agents besides
myself.
Mr. HUBERT. They all work out of
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. One special agent actually headquarters, so to
speak, in
Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us something about your family.
Mr. SORRELS. I am married.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been married?
Mr. SORRELS. I have a daughter 16 years of age and a younger daughter 7
years of age. I have 2 children by a former marriage, a son who is a captain in
the
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been married to your present wife?
Mr. SORRELS. Since 1946.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Sorrels, Mr. Stern is going to take a deposition with
respect to security measures and other matters, I think, in regard to the
President. I am going to depose you with reference to a number of matters
concerning principally the security of Oswald after he was arrested and until
his death, and your activities with reference to Ruby after he had shot Oswald.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, getting into the first matter, can you tell us what you
observed yourself of the security measures which were in effect and actually
operating with reference to Oswald after his arrest.
Mr. SORRELS. The first time that I saw Oswald was on the afternoon of
November 22 as he was coming out of Capt. Will Fritz' office in the Dallas
Police Department on the third floor.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that?
Mr. SORRELS. The exact time I cannot give you, because I had been working
at a frantic pace. It was some time probably past the middle of the afternoon. I
had previously been informed by my office that Captain Fritz had endeavored to
locate me because he had a suspect in custody. And when I arrived there, Captain
Fritz was in his office, apparently talking to the suspect, whom I determined to
be Lee Harvey Oswald.
As he was being removed from the office, I told Captain Fritz that I
would like to talk to this man when an opportunity was afforded, and he remarked
"You can talk to him right now--just go right around the corner there by
the side of the office," which I did.
Oswald was brought around and was seated there. There were a number of
other officers present, detectives, I think possibly some FBI agents, and maybe
some of my agents had come in in the meantime.
I started to----
Mr. HUBERT. Before you go into that, would you tell us about the security
measures that you observed with reference to protecting the person of Oswald
from the time you first saw him, say up until the time you have reached now.
Mr. SORRELS. As far as I know, there was no one except authorized
officers
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in
that particular area at that time. I did not see anyone that I recognized to be
other than an officer.
Mr. HUBERT. No news people in the corridor of the third floor?
Mr. SORRELS. I am talking about inside the office now. In the corridor,
that was an entirely different situation because there were cameras set up,
tripods, still photographers, photographers with cameras in their hands, and
newspapermen in large numbers in the hallways.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, for example, when Captain Fritz afforded you an
opportunity to speak to Oswald and indicated that you could do so at a little
office around the corner, did that mean that you had to pass Oswald out of
Fritz' office, and through this third floor corridor, where all the newsmen were
gathered?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. That was still within Fritz' office?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; in other words, there was an office there, and
Captain Fritz had an office built within that office just merely to take him out
of the door and right around the corner of his inside office there.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you did interview Oswald.
Mr. SORRELS. I talked to him, started asking him questions, and he was
belligerent and arrogant in his attitude and he said to me, "I don't know
who you fellows are, a bunch of cops."
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you speak to him
Mr. SORRELS. Not very long.
Mr. HUBERT. In point of time.
Mr. SORRELS. Not over--I don't think over 10 minutes at the most.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what happened to him after that?
Mr. SORRELS. As far as I know, he was taken back to the jail.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, taking him back to the jail would involve passing him
out of Fritz' office, through the corridor, and to the jail elevator, is that
correct?
Mr. SOERELS. That is correct; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what security precautions you observed with
reference to his person after he was out of Fritz' office?
Mr. SORRELS. They of course had him handcuffed when they removed him, and
several detectives accompanied him as they left out, in front--someone went
ahead. And as I recall it there was at least one on the side, and then some
brought up the rear.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not go up to the jail?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe any system of identification of the people
who were on the third floor?
Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, when I first went down there I had no
particular difficulty getting in, because most of the officers there know me,
from my years of being in that city. But subsequent to that time I would have to
identify myself many times. This was to uniformed police officers that were on
duty. And I would have to show my commission book in order to get into Captain
Fritz' office, or else get into the executive offices there, where the chief of
police and the deputy chief offices were located.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe any officers posted at the entrances to the
area, to the third floor area?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were they?
Mr. SORRELS. By the elevator, and then there were uniformed officers at
Captain Fritz' door.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe them requiring identification by other
persons? I mean you described how they required you to identify yourself. Did
you notice whether they did so with other people, and if so, what did they do?
Mr. SORRELS. I cannot say that I did, because usually when I get through
identifying myself, I either went to the executive suite, where the chief's
office was, or right direct to Captain Fritz' office. But on a number of
occasions, the officers that were on duty there, before I can get my commission
book out, some of the newsmen or photographers there that knew me would
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say,
"He is Sorrels of the Secret Service." I, upon being recognized and
identifying myself, would be admitted. Some of the officers on duty there of
course after the second or third time they would recognize me, and I would have
no difficulty getting in. But I cannot say that I saw anyone else being required
to identify themselves, because I did not hang around the places where the
officers were.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that the security conditions that you just
described were in effect for the entire period of November 22 through November
24--that is, on the third floor?
Mr. SORRELS. Captain Fritz' office definitely yes--going into his office.
I do not recall having to identify myself to get onto the third floor on the 22d
when I first got down there. But subsequent to that time, I do recall having to
identify myself almost every time I went up there.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the general condition of the third floor area from
point of personnel, equipment, and so forth?
Mr. SORRELS. I guess you could term it more or less deplorable, because
of the fact that they had so many cameras with tripods and cables and wires and
photographers and reporters that you would have to step over tripods and wires
and almost elbow your way to get in and out of the place. And every time you
would come out of it--Captain Fritz' office they would turn on those bright
lights, and you would have to shield your eyes almost to keep from being
temporarily blinded.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you mean--that last condition you described took place
when anybody came out of Fritz' office, or when they came out with Oswald?
Mr. SORRELS. No--I would not say just anybody, but many times when I
would start out, the minute they would see anyone coming out of the door, they
would turn the lights on, I guess to be prepared in case Oswald or anyone else
that they wished to photograph would come out.
Mr. HUBERT. During the period that we are talking about, that is, say,
from the arrest of Oswald the first time you saw him until the 24th, I take it
that you observed Oswald being moved from Captain Fritz' office to the jail
elevator at least quite a number of times.
Mr. SORRELS. I can only recall two times, I believe. The first time is
when he was taken out of Captain Fritz' office on the afternoon of the 22d. Then
there were two other occasions I knew of when he was brought back into Captain
Fritz' office and when he was taken out. I remember that many times. In other
words, about three going out and two coming in I can definitely recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you recall that while he was being so moved on any
one of those occasions, that he was addressed by the press or questions asked
him, or remarks made to him?
Mr. SORRELS. No, because the time that I saw him he was in Captain Fritz'
office or being removed from his office. I never saw him in the hallway that I
can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I thought you had mentioned a little while ago that on
the first occasion you did observe him--after you had interviewed him for about
10 minutes--you did observe him move out of Fritz' office and go to the
elevator.
Mr. SORRELS. I think your question, as I understand it, sir, was that he
was removed from Captain Fritz' office to the elevator.
I did not see him taken down the hallway.
Mr. HUBERT. I see; I did misunderstand you.
Mr. SORRELS. Sorry.
Mr. HUBERT. So you do not know really whether or not any news media or
any other people asked him questions and made remarks to him while he was going
from Fritz' office to the elevator.
Mr. SORRELS. Not of my personal knowledge; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Could those news people see into Fritz' office from the
hallway?
Mr. SORRELS. They could see into the outer office, but they could not
very well see into his office unless they actually came inside the office within
which his office is located. You have got one door that faces on the west side
of the office, and then Captain Fritz' there faces north. So that it would be a
question of someone might see just a corner portion of his office from the
hallway door,
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which
is glass at the top, but they would not be able to see anyone sitting, for
example, where Oswald would have been sitting at the time that I saw him in
Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, there was a glass door to what might be
called the outer office of Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. SORRELS. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. But the inner office, while it had a glass door, it did not
face on an area in which the press was located.
Mr. SORRELS. That's right. It also had Venetian-type blinds on the doors,
and the other part of his office was glass from the upper part.
Mr. HUBERT. While you were up there at any time during the period we are
talking about, did you ever observe anyone known to you to be a civilian who was
not either a police officer or connected with the news media in some way?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I do not; well, I will take that back. You are talking
about when Oswald was around?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, yes. But also I want to broaden it to any time.
Mr. SORRELS. The reason I asked that question is that Jack Ruby's sister
was in his office with another lady after Ruby was in custody, and at that time
they were in there with Mr. Jim Underwood from radio station KRLD who was trying
to make arrangements for Ruby's sister to get up in the jail to see him. But
prior to that, I do not know, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, were you present at a meeting at which the news media
were present and Oswald was brought into an assembly room, in which the news
media were assembled?
Mr. SORRELS. I was present when Oswald was brought into what is called
the lineup room, which is also the assembly room. They have the lineup section
at one end of it. That was on the evening of November 22. At that time it was my
request, because a witness who had been interviewed by me, and who had seen the
person fire the third shot from the window of the Book Depository Building, I
had gotten in touch with him through one of our agents, and he was brought down
there for the specific purpose of being able to see Oswald, because when he was
first interviewed by me he stated that he thought he could identify him.
Mr. HUBERT. That was in fact, however, a true lineup for the purpose of
identification.
Mr. SORRELS. I am sorry--I did not understand the question.
Mr. HUBERT. I said that was a true lineup for the purpose of
identification.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I was speaking of another meeting where the assembly room
usually used for the lineup was used to give the press an opportunity to see
Oswald.
Mr. SORRELS. I was not present. That is the only time I saw Oswald in the
lineup.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware at any time on the 22d of the concern
expressed by Mr. J. Edgar Hoover in regard to the security of Oswald, and
allegedly transmitted to the
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you become aware of that later?
Mr. SORRELS. I do not recall ever having heard anything to that effect.
Mr. HUBERT. Even now you do not?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby at all?
Mr. SORRELS. Not before this incident took place; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not even know he existed?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir. As a matter of fact, when I first heard Oswald had
been shot, I understood the name to be Jack Rubin, and in my first report to my
headquarters office I gave them the name of Jack Rubin--R-u-b-i-n, an operator
of a nightclub. That is the first information I got. I just misunderstood the
pronunciation of the last word.
Mr. HUBERT. I think I have already asked this question in a general way--
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that
is to say, you have covered the area in a general way. But I think for the
record I should make it more specific.
You have now come to know a man by the name of Jack Ruby, to the extent
that you could recognize him, I suppose.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us whether you saw him in or about the police
department building at any time after the President was shot, and until Ruby
shot Oswald?
Mr. SORRELS. I have no recollection of having seen a man whom I know now
to be Jack Ruby before I saw him in the
Mr. HUBERT. Now, we can pass, I think, for my purposes--and mind you, Mr.
Stern might cover some of these areas again, but this is the way this is being
handled.
You did see Oswald, I think, on Sunday morning, November 24?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us where and at what time?
Mr. SORRELS. That was in the office of Capt. Will Fritz of the homicide
division of the Dallas Police Department. It was somewhere around 11 o'clock in
the morning, and he was removed from Captain Fritz' office at approximately I
guess about 11:15.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of your interviewing him that morning?
Mr. SORRELS. We, of course, were interested in any statement that Oswald
might make relating to any phase of the assassination of the President.
Particularly, I was interested in trying to obtain an admission from him that he
had used the name of A. Hidell as an alias, because information had been
developed that he had purchased the rifle which was found on the sixth floor of
the Book Depository under the name of A. Hidell.
There was a change of address card which he had filed in New Orleans, as
I recall it, on which it was shown that persons to receive mail at the address
given, the name of A. Hidell appeared. And after Captain Fritz got through
questioning him on the morning of November 24, he asked if any of the officers
present in the room desired to ask him any questions. And I said, "Yes; I
would like to ask him a question."
In the meantime, Chief of Police Jesse Curry had come to Captain Fritz'
office, and inquired about the delay in moving him out. And Captain Fritz
informed that he was still talking to him.
Mr. HUBERT. Captain Fritz informed----
Mr. SORRELS. Informed Chief Curry----
Mr. HUBERT. That he was or you were?
Mr. SORRELS. That he was. And a very short time after that is when I had
an opportunity to ask Oswald some questions. I showed Oswald the change of
address card----
Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you this: Was your interrogation of him cut off,
as it were, by the transfer?
Mr. SORRELS. By the transfer?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SORRELS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you finished with him?
Mr. SORRELS. I had finished----
Mr. HUBERT. As to that point?
Mr. SORRELS. As to that point; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, you would have had access to him, I
think, at the county jail, anyhow, would you not?
Mr. SORRELS. I had certainly planned on having access to him, and I am
sure I would have. As a matter of fact, I had in my mind to start talking to him
that afternoon.
Mr. HUBERT. What I wanted to clarify is whether or not your effort to
interrogate him was interrupted. But I gather that it was not.
Mr. SORRELS. No, I would say not. Possibly, had he remained there, I
might have attempted to ask him more questions. But he was not giving out much
information.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, during the whole time that Oswald was in custody
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of
the Dallas Police Department, did you find that any obstacles or hindrances were
put in your way of examining him?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; except had he been in our own custody, there would
have been a chance to have questioned him without others being present, or so
many others being present.
Mr. HUBERT. At the time that you were in Fritz' office, on November 24,
did you hear any plans discussed for the transfer of Oswald?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I did not say that I heard anything about any plans. I
do recall that Oswald requested to have some of his clothes brought down there,
because his shirt that he had on when he was arrested had been taken from him, I
think, for laboratory examination. And Captain Fritz sent and got some of his
clothes, and he selected kind of a sweater-type----
Mr. HUBERT. But you did not hear the officers of the
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; I did hear a part of it, I recall now. There was some
suggestion about transporting him in an armored car. Captain Fritz objected to
that because of--one reason that I recall was what effect it might have in his
trial, that that might prejudice the prosecution by him being transported in an
armored car, which is not of course ordinarily used in the transportation of
prisoners in that area.
Another thing that I recall is that Captain Fritz thought that the
armored car would be a bit cumbersome and it would not be able to maneuver as
easily as a car. And it was his desire to take him in a police car with escorts.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear anyone suggest that the plan then proposed, and
ultimately carried out in part, at least, should be changed so as to bypass the
press, as it were?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I did not. At that time there was no way to bypass them,
because they were out in the hall. As I had come to the building, I even noticed
cameras down in the basement of the city hall there.
Mr. SMITH. Could I interrupt just a second, sir. I may be completely
wrong about this, but wasn't there something about the time of transporting him?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. As I understand it, some of the reporters had inquired
of Chief Jesse Curry as to whether or not he was going to transport him to the
county jail on the night of November 23.
Now, this is hearsay, that the reporters wanted to be relieved so they
could get some sleep if he was not going to be transported that night--they
would go home and get some rest.
Chief Curry himself told me that he had said something to this effect,
"Go on home and get your sleep, there won't be anything doing before 10
o'clock tomorrow morning."
As I recall, I think the newspapers then published the fact that he would
be moved at 10 o'clock in the morning, or words to that effect.
Mr. SMITH. I just wanted to get the full story, because I remembered him
having mentioned something about this. I do not know whether it is important.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, in that connection, had you heard that the FBI had
received an anonymous phone call from someone advising that an effort, by a
group of men, would be made to kill Oswald?
Mr. SORRELS. I do not recall that I had heard any such report at that
time. I did hear that there had been an anonymous call come into the police
department that someone would try to kill him when they removed him, or words to
that effect. But that, I believe, was subsequent to the time he was actually
shot. I do not recall that morning of having heard anything about that. And I
definitely did not hear anything about a group. I remembered something about it
later on, but I never heard anything about it at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear of any plans made as to the actual route that
would be followed in transporting Oswald?
Mr. SORRELS. Not before Oswald was shot.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why, from anything you knew then, or have learned
since, the cameramen and so forth were all congregated in the basement area?
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Mr. SORRELS. Would you read that question again?
Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is this: You testified a moment
ago that when you came in you saw all the press people with their cameras and so
forth in the basement area.
Mr. SORRELS. Not all of them. I said I saw some down there.
Mr. HUBERT. Which would indicate that they either had guessed or had
somehow become aware that--that would indicate that they either had guessed or
had somehow become aware that that would be a point on the route to be taken at
which they could get pictures. And I was wondering if you had heard anything
prior to that time about the route, or had you heard that these people had been
informed of the route?
Mr. SORRELS. No; nothing about the route. The basement is used by the
police generally. They have a passageway which comes from
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall ever having spoken to either Curry or some
other member of the police department about the possibility of moving Oswald in
a way other than that which was planned?
Mr. SORRELS. When I heard that they were supposed to take him out at 10
o'clock--that was the announcement and so forth on the radio and in the
papers--I remarked to Captain Fritz that if I were he, I would not remove Oswald
from the city hall or city jail to the county jail at an announced time; that I
would take him out at 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning when there was no one
around.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know when you told that to Fritz?
Mr. SORRELS. That was on the Sunday morning, before he was removed.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell that to any other person?
Mr. SORRELS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was any other person present when you told that to Fritz?
Mr. SORRELS. No; not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. What caused you to give that advice to Captain Fritz?
Mr. SORRELS. The importance of the prisoner, to my mind, was such that in
order to remove the opportunity for some crackpot or anyone who might feel
inclined to try to kill the prisoner, if the removal was made more or less
unannounced or in secret, that those opportunities would have been at least
lessened to a great degree.
Captain Fritz said that Chief Curry did not want to--let's reverse that
just a bit--that Chief Curry wanted to go along with the press and not try to
put anything over on them; or words to that effect.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you gather from what Fritz told you that the reason why
your suggestion was not acceptable was that Fritz at least thought that
captain--that Chief Curry did not want to break his word, as it were, to the
press?
Mr. SORRELS. I didn't consider it so much as breaking his word as I would
that he did not want to tell them one thing, or in other words, move him out
without the press being aware of the fact--let's put it that way. That was my
impression.
Mr. HUBERT. What time was it, about, do you know, that you made that
suggestion?
Mr. SORRELS. That was pretty close to 11:15 in the morning, just a short
time before they got ready to move him.
Mr. HUBERT. You do not know, do you, whether he conveyed your thought to
Chief Curry?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I do not. I doubt that he did, because Chief Curry had
left Fritz' office at that time, as I recall it.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember about what time it was when the Oswald move
began from Fritz' office?
Mr. SORRELS. It was shortly after 11:15 in the morning, as I recall it.
In other words----
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go down with the party carrying him down?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; I did not. Inspector Kelley and I went to the
office of Chief Batchelor, which is also on the third floor, and on the south
side of the
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building,
on the
Mr. HUBERT. When you arrived at Chief Batchelor's office, at the point
you have just described, to wit, the windows looking out on
Mr. SORRELS. No; I don't think so, because that was immediately--in other
words, when they took Oswald out, I went right on down to the chief's office,
that is right on the same floor. And
we were there for a few minutes before we heard that he had been shot.
Mr. HUBERT. But the Oswald party left Fritz' office before you and Mr.
Kelley did?
Mr. SORRELS. I am rather positive that he was taken out before I left,
yes; because I remember about bringing the clothes in there, and Oswald
selecting, I think, a sweater or something like that. I actually have no
independent recollection of seeing him going through the door or anything like
that. He could have been there when we walked out. But it is my impression that
he was taken out and shortly thereafter Mr. Kelley and I went to Chief
Batchelor's office.
Mr. HUBERT. Did that involve walking a distance on the same floor of
about how many feet?
Mr. SORRELS. Oh, possibly a 100 feet, 110, something like that. Captain
Fritz' office is not at the entirely opposite end of the building, but Chief
Batchelor's office is. You go into the executive area there, and you cut over to
the left-hand corner, and Chief Batchelor's office is in the corner.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you first learn that Ruby had shot Oswald?
Mr. SORRELS. One of the police officers that was on duty in the executive
area there told us that Oswald had been shot in the basement--in the stomach, as
I recall it.
Mr. HUBERT. You were still in Batchelor's office at the time you were
told that?
Mr. SORRELS. I think we were right outside the office, in the area there.
I do not believe we were actually in his office at that particular time. I think
we had stepped outside there. And that I do not think was over, oh, I would say
a maximum of possibly 10 minutes, from the time we left Captain Fritz' office to
go to Chief Batehelor's office.
Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the time that this policeman advised you that Oswald
had been shot, did you notice any commotion or anything to indicate something
wrong going on on
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you were standing at the window looking down, as I
understand it, on the scene on
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. I was not at the window at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. You had moved away?
Mr. SORRELS. We had walked away from the window, I think, just killing
time, I guess. And we were actually in the outside of Batchelor's office, but in
that area there.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. What did you do?
Mr. SORRELS. I immediately rushed down to the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you go--by what route?
Mr. SORRELS. I grabbed an elevator, as I recall it.
Mr. HUBERT. Public elevator or the jail elevator?
Mr. SORRELS. No; a public elevator--and got down to the basement floor,
and I headed right into the jailer's office. And at that time Oswald was laying
on the floor and someone was giving him artificial respiration.
Mr. HUBERT. By mechanical means?
Mr. SORRELS. No; by hand. I recall seeing his stomach was uncovered, his
shirt was pulled up like that, and the man apparently was over him giving him
artificial respiration by his hands.
I went to a telephone, which is in the jail office there, up against the
wall, and
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called
my headquarters office and told Deputy Chief Paterni that Oswald had been shot
by a man named Jack Rubin--that is how I understood it at that time who operated
a nightclub, and that was all the information I had at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Paterni was in
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That was a long-distance call?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time the call was made, did you use a direct
line?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I called it on the security phone, which we use in
connection with matters pertaining to the protection of prisoners.
In other words, the Signal Corps----
(Witness provided telephone number.)
Mr. HUBERT. And you can use that on any telephone?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. HURERT. Is that a security matter?
Mr. SORRELS. I beg your pardon?
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a security matter, that telephone number?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes--Signal Corps.
Mr. HUBERT. I think the record should show that the witness stated the
number that was called, but that we are not going to have it as a part of the
record because it is a security matter.
You, Mr. Reporter, will delete the number from the transcript.
What I was trying to get at is have you ascertained at what time that
call was made?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I have not.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it be possible to do so?
Mr. SORRELS. I could not answer that question, because I do not know what
records are kept.
Mr. HUBERT. Does it go as a long-distance call?
Mr. SORRELS. A long-distance call collect; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then the telephone company probably would have a record of
it?
Mr. SORRELS. Possibly so. It is my understanding that at that time they
were not actually making any record of calls--they were coming in so fast, the
employees of the telephone company told me those calls--they put people through
and were not concerned about time.
Mr. HUBERT. Was this done by direct dialing or through the operator?
Mr. SORRELS. Through the operator.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was a collect call?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It would have to be charged to the government?
Mr. SORRELS. If it was recorded; yes, it would be, to that particular
phone.
Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if you would be so kind as to undertake to ascertain
for us if there exists a record on that point, because, as you know, we are
interested in very narrow areas of time here.
Mr. SORRELS I would say this--that the time can be established within a
matter of a very few minutes, because Oswald was still on the floor and had not
been removed to the hospital at the time.
Mr. HUBERT. That is right.
But you see, I have estimates of time from other people, and I want to
see how it conforms. And therefore, to tie it in, could you give us your
estimate of how many minutes or parts of minutes elapsed between the time you
made your call, you initiated it, and the time that Oswald actually moved out?
Mr. SORRELS. That I cannot tell you, because I was not there when he was
moved out. I left then that area as soon as I made that call.
Mr. HUBERT. He was still in the area when you made the call?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
The call went through very quickly. And I left that area then and went
back to Captain Fritz' office, because I was interested in talking to the man
who had shot Oswald as quickly as possible.
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Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you went down there to the jail office and saw
Oswald, as you testified, and made the call, was Jack Ruby there?
Mr. SORRELS. I did not see him.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. HURERT. To your knowledge, he had already been removed?
Mr. SORRELS. That is correct; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, how did you get up to Fritz' office?
Mr. SORRELS. I went back up the elevator, the regular public elevator,
and went to his office and inquired of Captain Fritz, and I was informed that he
was not there, that he had gone to the hospital. I then asked him where was Jack
Rubin.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, you had been informed at that time that the
last name of Jack Ruby was Rubin, R-u-b-i-n?
Mr. SORRELS. I still--as far as I knew, it was R-u-b-i-n, because that is
the way I gave it. I asked him where he was, and they said he was on the fifth
floor. And I said I would like to
talk to him. And----
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you say that to?
Mr. SORRELS. I do not recall who it was--some of the detectives down
there.
Mr. HUBERT. In Fritz' office?
Mr. SORRELS. In Captain Fritz' office; yes. And Officer Dean was
instructed to take me up to where he was.
Mr. HUBERT. Who instructed Dean to do that?
Mr. SORRELS. The same officer I was talking to--I don't remember who it
was, but someone apparently----
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Dean prior to that time?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I cannot say that I did. So----
Mr. HUBERT. Where was Dean?
Mr. SORRELS. That was in the detective office, Captain Fritz----
Mr. HUBERT. What was he doing?
Mr. SORRELS. I don't know what he was doing.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, the same officer to whom you made inquiry
concerning where Captain Fritz was and where Ruby was, that officer directed
Dean, who was in Fritz' office, to take you up?
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
And we walked out then in the hallway to the jail elevator. Now, that is
a different one from the one I came to Fritz' office in. And I was taken to the
fifth floor, and there I saw Ruby, whom I later found out to be Ruby, standing
there with, as I recall it, two uniformed police officers. And I introduced
myself to him, showed him my credentials, and told him that I would like to ask
him some questions.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, was this a cell, or what sort of a room was it?
Mr. SORRELS. It wasn't what you would call a cell, but the elevator--you
had to open up a door with bars on it to get into the area there. And----
Mr. HUBERT. How large a room was that?
Mr. SORRELS. It wasn't very large, as I recall it.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us something by way of dimensions in feet?
Mr. SORRELS. I would say in width it was probably about, oh, 6 or 7 feet
wide. Now, as to length, I would not be able to say exactly how long it was,
because I was not interested in the size of the room or anything at that time,
and I paid no attention to it.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there tables and furniture and chairs in it?
Mr. SORRELS. No; nothing.
Mr. HUBERT. Nothing at all?
Mr. SORRELS. No; nothing. He was standing there. He only had his shorts
on. His clothes had been removed.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Dean go into that room with you?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So that there were you and Dean and Ruby in the room?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you mentioned there were two other officers?
Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, there were two uniformed police officers
there.
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Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who they were?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I do not.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, to get it clear--I do not mean if you knew who they were
at the time, but do you now know who they were?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I do not know who they are now.
Mr. HUBERT. And there were only those two?
Mr. SORRELS. There were possibly some other officers came in. I do not
recall that they were there at the time we got there, but there might have been
others came in. As I recall, there was somebody behind me. I wasn't interested
in them. I was only interested in talking to this man as quickly as I could.
Mr. HUBERT. Before we get into the details, can you tell us how long this
interview with Ruby lasted?
Mr. SORRELS. I would say possibly not over 5 to 7 minutes, not very long.
Mr. HUBERT. What brought it to an end?
Mr. SORRELS. I had gotten the information that I desired at that time,
and was anxious to get it back into Washington, because I had been asked to get
as much information as I could quickly, and get it back to them up there,
something about his background, who he was and so forth.
Mr. HUBERT. So that during that interview, which lasted approximately 5
to 7 minutes, your thought is--you know that there was Dean and yourself and
Ruby, and you also know that there were two other officers whose names you do
not know even now, and you think that there might have been one or more others
who came in?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes--in plainclothes. I don't recall any other uniformed
officers there.
Mr. HUBERT. And you do not recall, I suppose, or do not know now the
names of any of those other people who might have come in?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I could not tell you who they were at all.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think you have made a report of that interview, and a
later one, and we will offer that in evidence a little later.
But I would like to ask you now if Ruby made any statement to your
knowledge at that time, and that is the first interview you had with him,
concerning whether he had been in the assembly room on the night of the 22d when
Oswald was brought in so that the press could observe him?
Mr. SORRELS. Not at that time; no, sir. He did later.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he at that time, the first interview, indicate anything,
or say anything which would indicate what his motive or reason for his act was?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; and I might say that it was at that time that I found
out his name was Ruby in place of Rubin, and he informed me his name had
formerly been Rubinstein, and that he had had his name changed in Dallas.
I asked him--after I identified myself, I told him I would like to ask
him some questions.
He said, "For newspapers or magazines?" I said, "No; for
myself."
He appeared to be considering whether or not he was going to answer my
questions, and I told him that I had just come from the third floor, and had
been looking out of the window, and that I had seen Honest Joe, who is a Jewish
merchant there, who operates a second-hand loan pawn shop, so to speak,
specializing in tools, on Elm Street, and who is more or less known in the area
because of the fact that he takes advantage of any opportunity to get free
advertising. He at that time had an Edsel car, which is somewhat a rarity now,
all painted up with "Honest Joe" on there. He wears jackets with
"Honest Joe" on the back. He gets writeups in the paper, free
advertising about different things he loans money on, like artificial limbs and
things like that. And I had noticed Honest Joe across the street when I was
looking out of Chief Batchelor's office.
So I remarked to Jack Ruby, I said, "I just saw Honest Joe across
the street over there, and I know a number of Jewish merchants here that you
know."
And Ruby said, "That is good enough for me. What is it you want to
know?"
And I said these two words, "Jack---why?"
He said, "When this thing happened"--referring to the
assassination, that he was in a newspaper office placing an ad for his business.
That when he heard
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about
the assassination, he had canceled his ad and had closed his business, and he
had not done any business for 3 days. That he had been grieving about this
thing. That on the Friday night he had gone to the synagogue and had heard a
eulogy on the President. That his sister had recently been operated on, and that
she has been hysterical. That when he saw that Mrs. Kennedy was going to have to
appear for the trial, he thought to himself, why should she have to go through
this ordeal for this no-good so-and-so.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he use any words or did he say "no-good
so-and-so"?
Mr. SORRELS. He used the word "son-of-a-bitch," as I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. S0RRELS. That he had heard about the letter to little Caroline, as I
recall he mentioned. That he had been to the
I, of course, asked him when he was born. He told me in
I asked him if anyone else was involved in this thing besides him, and he
said that there was not.
I asked him if he knew Oswald before this thing happened, and he said he
did not. He said that he had been a labor organizer years ago.
I asked him if he had ever been convicted of any offense or done any
time, and he said no felony, that he had a JP release in 1954---in other words,
he had been arrested but released by the JP in 1954.
I asked him what his father's name was, and he said his name was Joseph
Rubenstein.
I asked him where his father was born, and he said
I asked him if his mother was living, and he said no, that she was
deceased, and that she was born in
I asked him if he had an attorney, and he said he had
Mr. HUBERT. Did you not ask him why he had the gun with him?
Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes; I did.
I asked him why he had that gun, and he said that he carried a gun
because of the fact that he carried large quantities of money from his business,
or from the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether he made any comment to you or in your
hearing regarding the way he got into the basement area where he shot Oswald?
Mr. SORRELS. At that time, I do not. I do not recall asking him how he
got in. I made no notes to that effect.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember him saying then anything about that he had
intended to shoot Oswald and had formed that intent as early as Friday?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. He did not comment at all about his intent?
Mr. SORRELS. No; nothing except his response to my question as to
"Jack, why?", and then his relating as I have told you there a moment
ago. In other words, after I got----
Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention anything about he intended to shoot him three
times?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I did not hear that statement.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the only comments that you heard him state
which bear upon intent are those you have already made--that is to say, somebody
had to do it, and also that he wanted to show the world that a Jew had guts?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I did not hear him say that somebody had to do it. I
heard him say that he guessed he had worked himself into a state of insanity to
where he had to do it, felt he had to do it.
Mr. HUBERT. But he did make the report saying he felt he had to show the
world that a Jew had guts?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; that was very plain.
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Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you left, who left with you?
Mr. SORRELS. As I recall, I went by myself, because when I got the
information about his background, as I related here, and got his correct name
and the information that he was operating alone on this thing, that no one else
was involved with him, and he did not know Oswald, I then left in order to
telephone that information to my headquarters in Washington.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you state positively, therefore, to us that when you left
Dean was in the room?
Mr. SORRELS. I think he must have been, because, as I recall it, I went
down on the elevator by myself with the elevator operator.
Mr. HUBERT. And Dean was in the room at all times you were talking to
him?
Mr. SORRELS. As far as I know.
Mr. HUBERT. He did not leave with you?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. HUBERT. The two other officers who were in uniform I think you said,
who were in the room at first, they were there all the time too?
Mr. SORRELS. As far as I know; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. They did not leave when you left?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And if anybody else came in afterwards, they did not leave
when you left?
Mr. SORRELS. Not that I recall.
As I recall it, I think I went down alone, just the elevator operator and
myself. Of course he had my sidearm. I had to get my sidearm from him. If there
was anyone else there, I didn't know.
Mr. HUBERT. You had to get your sidearm----
Mr. SORRELS. From the elevator operator.
In other words, you are not permitted to carry a gun inside the jail.
Mr. HUBERT. You saw him again later that day?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what time, under what circumstances, where,
who was present, and so forth?
Mr. SORRELS. I do not remember just exactly the time, but it was some
time after that when Jack Ruby was brought to Captain Fritz' office, and Captain
Fritz questioned him. I was present at that time and heard Captain Fritz
interrogate him and made some notes and wrote them up. And I also at that time
asked him a few questions myself, on some points I wanted to clarify.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you there from the beginning of the interview between
Ruby and Fritz, or did you arrive when it was already going on?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I was there at the beginning, because I heard Captain
Fritz tell him of course he did not have to make a statement and so on and so
forth, and Ruby said, "Well, I will answer your questions, but some of them
I may not want to answer, and I will tell you so."
Mr. HUBERT. Were you introduced to him?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I had talked to him up in the jail there.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you present during the entire interview?
Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, I was, on that one interview.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us who else was present?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I do not recall who else was there.
As I recall, there was other officers there in the room with Captain
Fritz, but I do not recall who.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say you had made notes as Captain Fritz was
interrogating him. Do you have those notes?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; I have the notes here.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have notes also of the first interview?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. I read some of the stuff awhile ago from those notes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there any reason of security or otherwise why we could not
get photostats of them for the record?
Mr. SORRELS. Not that I know of.
They may not mean much to anyone else, because it is just something
jotted down to refresh my memory. They are not in very good order, or anything
like that. And I don't know whether it would mean too much to anyone else.
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As far as I know----
Mr. HUBERT. You have no objections?
Mr. SORRELS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I take it those notes were made contemporaneously with the
interviews, as they went on?
Mr. SORRELS. The ones of Ruby were; yes.
Now, there is other stuff in here that had nothing to do with that.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, we are interested of course only in the Ruby ones. But
you testified a little while ago, and you seemed to be referring to notes, about
what Ruby said, and what happened and so forth in the first interview, and then
also in the second interview.
The notes that you referred to on both occasions were made
contemporaneously with the interview. That is, they were not made at a later
date?
Mr. SORRELS. That is correct.
Now, there is other stuff in this notebook. Like I went up to the
identification bureau to check on his record and so forth, and got his detailed
description, and his fingerprint classification--that had nothing to do with the
interview.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we ought to take that to show what the practice was.
Mr. HUBERT. If you do not mind, we will have them photostated, and after
we get the photostats, we will get them an identification number.
Suppose you tell us, then, what occurred at the second interview?
Mr. SORRELS. Continuing with what I started out with a moment ago there,
he incidentally, I have noted here on this page where I made these notations
"3:15 p.m.," I assume that is possibly the time this interrogation
took place. I do have the date, "11-24- 63."
Mr. HUBERT. The beginning of the notes relating to the interview in
Captain Fritz' office?
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. It is your testimony now it would be your custom, as I
understand it, to put the time at the beginning of the notes.
Mr. SORRELS. Ordinarily we do. In this other one, I did not put the time.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. SORRELS. He gave his name as Jack Leon Ruby. He was asked about who
his attorneys were, and he said that he was going to get Tom Howard and possibly
Fred Brunner, and Stanley Kaufman, a civil attorney, and Jim Arnton.
In other words, he was going to consider those and C. A. Droby.
He said that his name was changed in
Now, I might put in here as an explanation that these are in response to
questions that Captain Fritz was asking him. That he had this gun for 2 or 3
years. That George Senator was a roommate. That he came in the basement--the
word "basement" is not shown here he came in off
And I have the notation here "Vegas, Oaklawn, 3508, Carousel, 1312
1/2 Commerce." That he never saw the man before this thing took place,
referring to the time that he was down at the police station, or city hall,
rather. That he had been in the mail-order business. That he had been a labor
organizer. That he was fond of the police department.
And when Police Officer Slick had been killed--that is all I have in the
notes, but he said that he grieved about that.
That he had been around Saturday night, that people were laughing, no one
was in mourning. That he had seen a eulogy on TV. That he saw the President's
brother, Bobby, on TV. That he guessed that there was created a moment of
insanity. That he read about the letter that someone sent to little Caroline.
That he knows the police department is wonderful. That his heart was with the
police department. That he had hoped that if ever there was an opportunity--that
he had hoped there was an opportunity for him to participate in a police battle,
and he could be a part of it, meaning on the side the police.
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That his mother and dad were separated for 25 years. That he owes Uncle
Sam a big piece of money. That he has love for the city of
He wanted Captain Fritz to not hate him for what he had done. That when
he was with the union, that one of his dear friends was killed, he came to the
place where it happened. Leon Cook was the man. That Ruby's mother told him to
leave. That he was in the union Scrap Iron and Junk Dealers Association. That a
man by the name of Jim Martin killed Cook. That Martin was political and had
affiliations and got out of it.
That his roommate sold postcards. That his politics were Democratic, but
he voted for the man.
That Sammy Ruby, a brother, who services washaterias. Another brother,
Earl Ruby, in
That he had also sold twist boards. That he would not think of committing
a felony. That Tom O'Grady, a Catholic, formerly with the police department, had
called him, that he had called Sims, who is one of the members of the police
department, and wanted to bring sandwiches for them, because he knew they were
having a tough time, and that Sims said that it wasn't needed.
That he tried to locate--anyway, it was some of the TV people to give
them to. And that is when he went to the showup room. And that is the first time
that he had even seen anyone like that, referring to Oswald.
That he had seen Henry, meaning Henry Wade, the district attorney,
talking to someone. That KLIF, the radio station there, had been good to him. No
one else was involved.
That is my notes--"no one else involved"--meaning there was no
one else involved with him, Ruby, in connection with the shooting.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, was this a sort of monologue on his part, or response to
questions?
Mr. SORRELS. No; as I said a moment ago, that was in response to
questions.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, thus far have you covered only the part of the interview
which was conducted by Fritz, or was some of that the result of your
questioning?
Mr. SORRELS. About the only thing that I recall questioning him about was
possibly the correct address on the night club.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if anyone asked him how he got in? I think
perhaps you have testified to that already.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, Captain Fritz asked him that.
Mr. HUBERT. And he said he came in through the ramp, I believe you said.
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he state at any time during that interview about any
intent to kill Oswald, to shoot him three times, and he is glad he was dead?
Mr. SORRELS. I do not recall that.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am going to show you a document which is actually a
photostatic copy, or Xerox copy, of Commission Document 354, consisting of four
pages. I am going to mark that document for identification as follows, to wit,
"Deposition of Forrest Sorrels,
Mr. SORRELS. This is a photocopy of a memorandum report titled
"Assassination of President Kennedy," the second line of that caption,
"Jack Leon Ruby--slayer of Lee Harvey Oswald, charged with murder of
President Kennedy." Submitted by me, Forrest V. Sorrels, on February 3,
1964. And it consists of three full pages and a portion of--about a fifth of the
fourth page.
Mr. HUBERT. I think your signature, or, rather, a photostatic copy of
your signature is on the front.
Mr. SORRELS. That is
correct--on the front.
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Mr. HUBERT. That is the report that you submitted to your superiors?
Mr. SORRELS. In
Mr. HUBERT. Which ultimately, of course, they sent.
The report covers the events of November 24, is that right?
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why it was filed on February 3?
Mr. SORRELS. Why it was written on February 3?
I was instructed by Inspector Kelley to write up a memorandum on the
interview that I had with Jack Ruby, shortly after Oswald was shot by Ruby, and
also the interview that was had with Captain Fritz and Ruby at which I was
present on the same date.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive those instructions?
Mr. SORRELS. I cannot say exactly when I received them--probably within a
day or two, or it could have been longer, because due to the press of other work
and things arising out of the assassination, and its duties, the other duties,
it was not written as soon as it should have been. And I may have been
instructed some time before that to--as quick as I could to get the memorandum
prepared.
Mr. HUBERT. What I mean is that normally you would write such a report as
this in any case?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, that is true.
Mr. HUBERT. And normally it would be written sooner----
Mr. SORRELS. Sooner, that is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Than 2 months or so afterwards?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. That is what I am asking--if you can tell us what was the
cause of the delay.
Mr. SORRELS. Well, it is just the fact that we were burdened with all the
additional work and things brought about by this assassination and investigation
and so forth. I guess you could term it, possibly, negligence on my part for not
just taking time off and doing it. That is about the only explanation I can give
for that. It was not any willful intent to not write it or anything to that
effect.
Mr. HUBERT. There is no suggestion as to that.
Mr. SORRELS. I know. But that is just as a matter of explanation.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it was written on that date because Mr. Kelley
told you shortly before that date, to wit, February 3, that you should write it,
or is it your impression that Mr. Kelley had told you long before it was written
to write it?
Mr. SORRELS. There is a possibility that he may have told me before. I
don't recall it specifically. But I do know that Inspector Kelley had instructed
me to write up the report.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall having a conversation with Mr. Burt Griffin,
the gentleman who is in the office now, concerning what you knew about what Ruby
had said in your interviews with him?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; I do. And that refreshed my memory a bit, because I
recall that Inspector Kelley, after I had talked to Mr. Griffin on the
telephone--Inspector Kelley told me to get it written up, get it in writing,
about the interview, and get it in. I remember that now, since you mention it.
Mr. HUBERT. So that actually the report was written because Inspector
Kelley instructed you to do so, and as you recall it he did so because of the
conversation with Mr. Griffin?
Mr. SORRELS. I would surmise that, because, as I recall it now, either
right after I got through talking to Mr. Griffin or shortly thereafter, Mr.
Kelley did instruct me to get the interview, as I recall it, in a report, and
get it in to him.
Mr. HUBERT. But normally I think you said this report would have been
written anyhow, without any suggestion by Mr. Kelley or anybody else?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; that is right.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was your intent to write it, you say, but you didn't
get around to it?
Mr. SORRELS. That is about the best explanation I know to make on it.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you recall a conversation with Chief Curry with
respect to what you knew that Ruby had said?
Perhaps I can identify the conversation a bit more by saying to you that
it
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had
to do with a suggestion by you as to what the witnesses who were members of the
police department might be called in the prosecution.
Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes; I remember that.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us, first of all, when it was?
Mr. SORRELS. As I recall, it was after the trial of Ruby had started, or
along about the time it was beginning to start. I contacted Chief Curry and told
him----
Mr. HUBERT. Is this by phone, or was it by personal interview?
Mr. SORRELS. No; as I recall it was by phone that there were two
uniformed police officers that were present when I talked to Ruby on the fifth
floor of the city jail on the morning of November 24, and that I had not warned
Ruby of his constitutional rights and did not know whether or not the statement
that he had made to me would be admissible in a trial in the event that the
district attorney wanted to use it.
But----
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been at that time consulted by the district attorney
with reference to your being a possible witness?
Mr. SORRELS. I do not recall that I had.
Now, here is something that will establish that. The district attorney,
Henry Wade, came to
Mr. HUBERT. What airport?
Mr. SORRELS. This was before the trial--Love Field, in
He was Coming to
And I said, "All right."
And I did not hear anything more from Mr. Wade until the trial was
actually in progress. He asked me to come to his office, which I did.
Mr. HUBERT. That is Wade?
Mr. SORRELS. That is Henry Wade; yes, sir, the State district attorney
that prosecuted Ruby for the murder of Oswald.
And, at that time, I related to him the conversation I had had with Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you relate to him in that interview approximately what
you have told us today about your interviews with Ruby?
Mr. SORRELS. Only the one up in the jail--I was talking about that. I
didn't go into detail about this one where Captain Fritz was interviewing him.
That was only there at the jail.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there any reason why one was talked about and not the
other?
Mr. SORRELS. No; no particular reason, excepting that I just assumed that
Captain Fritz would be the one if there was any testimony as to the second
interview--would be the one to testify in that case.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Wade know that you were present at both?
Mr. SORRELS. I would not say positive, but it seems to me that it was
mentioned that I was present when we talked, but I am not positive on that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did this interview with Wade occur before or after the
telephone conversation with Curry?
Mr. SORRELS. No; that was afterwards. That was after the trial started.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, which was afterwards?
Mr. SORRELS. The interview with Mr. Wade.
Mr. HUBERT. That came after the telephone conversation with Curry?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Wade consider using you as a witness?
Mr. SORRELS. He said if he needed me, he would let me know--in other
words, would get in touch with me.
He said, "Now, the defense may subpoena you on this thing."
And defense attorney--one of them was in on that case--did call me on the
telephone. They wanted me to meet with either Tonahill or Belli, or maybe both
of them. And I told them I was extremely busy.
He said, "How about having dinner with us?"
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I said, "No; I don't even have time to eat big dinners, I just grab
a sandwich," because I didn't want to have dinner with them.
They called me a second time, because there had been a delay from the
time they thought they were going to call me--they called me the second time and
that is when they said something about having dinner with them later, and I
said, no; I didn't have time.
And at that time I told them I didn't think I could do them any good. I
said I can tell you in a short time what I could testify to.
He said, "Over the phone?"
I said, "Yes."
So I told them about the interview with Ruby in the jail up in the
jailhouse. I did not go into detail about the other, because I did not consider
that my interview.
Mr. HUBERT. You are talking there about the second interview?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention you had been present?
Mr. SORRELS. I do not recall that I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to the Curry matter, what was your motivation in
calling Curry?
Mr. SORELLS. I felt that the testimony or the statements, rather, made by
Ruby right after he had shot Oswald would be of benefit to the district attorney
in the prosecution of this case, the statements that he made as to the fact that
he had worked himself into a state of insanity, also the statement that he
guessed he had to show the world that a Jew had guts. And I also recall that
during the questioning by Captain Fritz during the interview there that Ruby had
made the remark, "Well, I would make a good actor, wouldn't I?" to
Captain Fritz. And I felt that possibly I could not testify, because of the fact
that I had not warned Ruby of his constitutional rights.
I thought of that before I talked to him, but the part that I was
interested in, that is, determining whether or not anyone else was involved with
him, or whether or not he knew Oswald, I didn't consider--I mean I considered
that if I warned him of his constitutional rights on that particular angle, that
he might not even tell me that, and that is the reason I did not warn him of his
constitutional rights, because I felt it was of paramount interest to our
Service to determine whether or not others were involved in this thing besides
Ruby, and of paramount interest to determine whether or not Oswald and Ruby knew
each other, or had any connection.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it a custom, rule, or regulation of your Service that you
must warn a person of his constitutional rights before you can question him?
Mr. SORRELS. On our investigations; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And is that a custom, or is it actually a published
regulation?
Mr. SORRELS. Well, we know that we are going to get in serious trouble in
court if we don't do it, because that is always--the question is always asked,
especially by a defense attorney, and so forth. And we know that we are supposed
to do it. I try to adhere to it as much as I possibly can.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to determine is whether that is your only
personal----
Mr. SORRELS. Oh, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Way of doing things, or if it is an established policy of the
Service, and if so, how is it established?
Mr. SORRELS. I think it is possibly a bit of both, because it is always
my practice to tell these people that we cannot promise them anything--I am
talking about the people we handle for prosecution in our investigations. And
that, of course, they don't have to tell us anything if they don't want to. We
make that known--because if we do not we know if there is a trial in a case,
that that question is going to be asked, and we know that under our laws that a
person is supposed to be warned of his constitutional rights before he is
questioned.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that your version of what the law is?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to the policy matter, I don't expect you to be
able
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to
quote it to me now, but you have the impression there is something in writing in
some manual of standard operations, instructions, that requires that you warn a
person of his constitutional rights?
Mr. SORRELS. I just cannot answer that question, because I just can't
recall if there is a specific instruction of that particular thing or not.
But I do know that if we do not warn them of their constitutional rights,
that we are--we will be in serious trouble in the trial of a case because if the
question is asked, "Did you warn this man of his constitutional
rights?" we have to tell the truth, and if we say "No, it
wasn't," we would be jeopardizing our case.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the time you called Curry, you had not spoken to
Wade?
Mr. SORRELS. Not about the actual interview with Ruby at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. At the time you talked to Curry, was that before or after you
saw Wade at Love Field?
Mr. SORRELS. I can't say for sure, but I think it was probably
afterwards.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is what motivated your call to
him.
Mr. SORRELS. I probably didn't make myself plain.
What motivated my call to him was that I figured that if I was called to
Mr. Wade's office to explain this thing to him, that the fact that I had not
warned Ruby when I approached him to get this information--that I had not warned
him of his constitutional rights, that I would not--it would not be good
testimony. And my thought is that the two men who were the two uniformed
officers there, who were just standing by and had nothing to do with the
questions and so forth, who heard what was said, they might be able to testify
to that effect.
Mr. HUBERT. So you wanted to get that information to someone in
authority?
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. And the information was twofold--that you knew there was
someone who could testify as to what Ruby had said, because you had heard Ruby
say it in the presence of other people?
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. And, secondly, you were doubtful as to whether your testimony
as such would be valuable?
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why you conveyed that information to Curry
instead of Wade?
Mr. SORRELS. Because I did not know the names of the two police officers
that were there. Two uniformed men.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, was it your thought, then, if you advised Curry he
would get the names of the men, and then convey it to Wade? I am trying to get
what your motivation was.
Mr. SORRELS. Well, that is all I can recall as to the motivation. In
other words, I don't know that I thought that he would convey the information to
Wade or not. I just cannot recall whether I had that in mind or not. But I did
have in mind that possibly these two fellows, these two uniformed police
officers, might be able to testify as to what Ruby said there when I would not
be able to do so, because of the fact I had not warned him.
Mr. HUBERT. And this conversation with Curry was in between the time you
saw Wade at Love Field and the time you had the interview with him when he came
back from
Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, it was. I won't be positive about that.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you told Wade, I think you said, the same thing, about
your doubts as to your qualifications.
Mr. SORRELS. I believe that I did, if I recall it correctly, because I
think when I was talking to Wade in his office, that that was mentioned.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make any memo of the conversation you had with Curry?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make any memo of the interview you had with Wade?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What did Curry say to you when you told him this information?
Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, I think he said that he could possibly find
out. It
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seemed
to me like I talked to Chief Batchelor about that, also. I am not positive. But,
anyway, I figured they would have a way of knowing who it was that was there,
and so forth, at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there anyway you could fix for us more definitely the
dates of these three occurrences--your meeting with Wade at Love Field, your
telephone conversation with Curry, and your interview with Wade?
Mr. SORRELS. I think that I can on the one at Love Field, because, as I
recall it, Miss Lynda Johnson was en route to Washington, D.C., and I went to
Love Field to be there at the time they arrived in the event that they might
need a car or something. I can establish that--February 16, 1964.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you don't know it now, but you could establish it?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I could establish it.
Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if you would undertake to establish that for us.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; I would.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you think there is no other collateral way to establish
the dates of the other matters?
Mr. SORRELS. I can--I think I can pretty well establish it. I will tell
you why. At the time that I was in Wade's office, and during the course of the
time that I talked to him, this officer Dean came into Mr. Wade's office and Mr.
Wade asked me about if I was present when Ruby said such and such things--I
don't recall what it was now--I think about that he had been thinking for 2 or 3
days about killing this fellow, or words to that effect, and I told him I was
not. And it was right after that that Dean testified in that case. And I think I
can establish about pretty close to what day it was. He either testified that
day or the following day, as I recall it.
Mr. HUBERT. What interval of time would have elapsed between your meeting
Wade at the airport and the date of the interview?
Mr. SORRELS. Oh, I think that would have been probably--it is just hard
to estimate the time, but it was before the trial of Ruby had ever even begun.
It would just be a guess on my part, but I would say it was probably maybe 2 or
3 weeks, or maybe even more.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, can you fix for us--put it this way: Can you fix for us
whether the Curry conversation was closer to the time you met Wade at Love Field
than it was to the time you interviewed Wade, or Wade interviewed you?
Mr. SORRELS. I just don't believe I can. It seems to me like it was
shortly after I had seen Mr. Wade. I may be wrong about that. But I know the
thought occurred to me, well, if I am going to be called down on that thing, I
don't think they are going to be able to accept my testimony, because of the
fact that Ruby wasn't warned. And so it was that time that I thought about maybe
getting the names of these other two officers who could possibly remember the
conversation, and they were standbys and were not the ones actually in the
questioning.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember telling Mr. Griffin here that you would call
the Dallas Police Department--I think that was in a telephone conversation he
had with you--to find out the names of the people?
Mr. SORRELS. It seems that I did mention to Mr. Griffin, when he was
talking to me on the phone, that there were others present, and that I could
possibly find out their names, and it seems to me that Mr. Griffin said
something about, "Well, no; don't do that," or "It is not
necessary."
Mr. HUBERT. Well, let me ask you this: Would that have been before you
called Curry, or afterwards?
Mr. SORRELS. Let me see now. I think that would have been before.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, perhaps it is this. Perhaps it was that when you had a
personal conversation with Mr. Griffin in
Mr. SORRELS. It could have been.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make such a call?
Mr. SORRELS. Did I?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SORRELS. I made a call. I am not sure it was to Chief Curry. It seems
to me I remember talking to Chief Batchelor on that. Now, I may have mentioned
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it
to Chief Curry, too. But it seems to me like I remember talking to Chief
Batchelor.
Mr. HUBERT. About the existence of some officers?
Mr. SORRELS. To find out who the uniformed officers were who were there.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, would that conversation with Chief Batchelor be
before the Curry conversation or afterwards?
Mr. SORRELS. I don't recall that I made that conversation to both of them
or not. Now, I am just not positive about that. But I do recall having made that
call for the specific purpose of getting somebody that was there, those two
uniformed officers, that could have heard that conversation, that could have
testified in the case down there.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible that that aspect of the matter was part of the
call to Curry?
Mr. SORRELS. I just don't remember--I just don't remember. But I know
that I did talk to either Curry or Chief Batchelor, and I am inclined to think
it was Chief Batchelor. Now, when you mentioned awhile ago about the call to
Curry, I, of course, said "yes" on that, because I was thinking about
the call. But since thinking about it, I am not sure that it was Chief Curry
that I talked to at all about that particular angle. But I do know that I talked
to Chief Batchelor about it. I know that.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, let's see if we can clarify it. There is no doubt about
it that there was one telephone call made to a high police official.
Mr. SORRELS. That is what I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. You are definite that one call was made to Batchelor.
Mr. SORRELS. If my memory serves me right, it seems that I did talk to
Batchelor.
Now, whether I talked to Chief Curry on that particular thing or not, I
am not too positive.
Mr. HUBERT. So that the matter stands that you are not certain that there
was the second telephone call with Curry at all?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I don't----
Mr. HUBERT. Well, would you have covered with Batchelor the material that
we have talked about that you say you did cover with Curry?
Mr. SORRELS. Now, what material is that?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, such as that you were doubtful about your ability to
testify, and so forth.
Mr. SORRELS. Not necessarily. In other words, if it was Batchelor that I
called, then I would have, I think, have explained it to him. If it had been
Curry I called, I would explain it to him--as to why I was wanting these names,
or given that information to them.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at, you see, is whether or not there
were two calls.
Mr. SORRELS. I don't recall that there were two calls. I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. And you are positive you spoke to Batchelor?
Mr. SORRELS. It seems that I remember talking to Chief Batchelor about
it, because it seems that I can remember that he said, "I am sure that we
can find out that information," or words to that effect.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, if there was only one call--that is to say, if you are
doubtful about two, and you do remember definitely Batchelor, then the one call
would have to be Batchelor, would it not?
Mr. SORRELS. That is correct; yes.
Mr. SMITH. I think there is a lack of meeting of the minds here.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you try to help me out? I would appreciate it.
Mr. SMITH. Let me see if I can clarify this. Was there definitely a
conversation with Curry about whether you would be able to testify because of
your failure to warn Ruby of his constitutional rights?
Mr. SORRELS. I just cannot say positively that there was. I do know that
I made a phone call for the specific purpose of informing them of the fact that
these two uniformed police officers were there and could have heard the
conversation that I had with Ruby, and as my memory serves me it seems that was
Chief Batchelor. Now, I may have had conversations with Chief Curry. We have
talked about this thing from many, many different angles from time to time.
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Mr. SMITH. Let me ask it a different way.
Was there one call to obtain the names of the men, uniformed policemen,
who were in the room when you interrogated Ruby, and a second call concerning
the question of whether you could testify, or were these two subjects covered in
one telephone conversation?
Mr. SORRELS. No; as I recall it, there was only one conversation on it at
that time.
Mr. SMITH. All right. And you don't know, then, for sure, whether it was
to Chief Batchelor or to Chief Curry?
Mr. SORRELS. I would say that, if my memory serves me right, it seems to
me like it was Chief Batchelor. There were many, many conversations about this
case from many angles. But I know I was concerned when Henry Wade indicated I
was going to be called as a witness down there, because I felt that they should
know that, and I think as I recall it when he talked to me I told him about
those two uniformed officers being there.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, whoever you talked to, did that person, whether it was
Curry or Batchelor, indicate that he was not aware of the information you were
giving him?
Mr. SORRELS. Now, what information?
Mr. HUBERT. About the statements made by Ruby.
And that you had been present.
Mr. SORRELS. No; I don't think so.
Mr. HUBERT. You have already adverted to the telephone call that you had
from Mr. Griffin.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make the telephone call to Curry or Batchelor as a
result of the conversation you had with Mr. Griffin?
Mr. SORRELS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That was independent? You think it was before?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I don't think it was before, because as I recall it,
this conversation with Mr. Griffin was quite some time before.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Sorrels, I call your attention to the fact that on the
exhibit which has been identified as Commission Document 354, as to which you
have already testified, there is no mention of the names of the officers who
were present, and that is dated February 3, 1964. Does that help you to
recollect whether you then got interested in who those people were and called
Batchelor or Curry, or both?
Mr. SORRELS. It probably brought it to my mind that there were other
people present there, and I think I so informed Mr. Griffin on the telephone.
But that is not what prompted me to make the call about the two uniformed
officers, because that had no bearing on what I told Mr. Griffin. What he was
asking me over the telephone is what I had heard Ruby say. And I told him what I
had heard Ruby say. And he had asked me about certain things that I did not
recall hearing Ruby say, and I told him so at the time. And when I was in
District Attorney Wade's office, the question was asked of me by Mr. Wade as to
whether or not certain statements alleged to have been made by Ruby were made to
Officer Dean in my presence, and I told him I did not hear anything like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, perhaps another approach would be this: You were
interested or became interested sometime in finding out the names of these
people. Isn't that a fact?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; but only for that particular purpose.
Mr. HUBERT. And you also wanted to convey the information that you were
doubtful whether you would qualify, as you put it, as a witness, because you had
failed to warn. And that that thought came into your mind after Wade indicated
that you might be a witness.
Mr. SORRELS. That is as I recall it.
Mr. HUBERT. And that, therefore, you called someone. Now, were those two
things in the same conversation?
Mr. SORRELS. You mean about----
Mr. HUBERT. The inquiry as to the names, who these people were, and to
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convey
the information that you were worried about your own qualifications if you
should be considered.
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. You think there were two conversations?
Mr. SORRELS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Just one?
Mr. SORRELS. As far as I know there would be one. Because that is the
only interest I had. As I recall it, I told Mr. Griffin over the telephone that
there were others present, and I could possibly find out who they were, and for
that purpose that he was trying to bring out on the telephone conversation, and
as I recall it he told me, "No; don't do that."
Mr. HUBERT. Did you find out who the two people were?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I could not tell you to this day who they are.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, whoever you spoke to, Batchelor or Curry, who
said they would let you know----
Mr. SORRELS. No; I don't think it was my purpose in finding out who they
were for my own benefit. That wasn't the point at all. It was my thought that
they should have information for the district attorney--period.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you were not interested in knowing who they
were yourself? You wanted them to know of the fact that there were two officers
there?
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. And that you were worried about your own qualifications?
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us approximately the lapse of time, if you can
remember it, between your conversation with Mr. Griffin and your conversation
with either Chief Batchelor or Chief Curry that you have been speaking of?
Mr. SORRELS. Well, I would say it was quite some time afterwards, because
this conversation--I don't remember the date I had it with Mr. Griffin, but it
was prior to the writing of this memorandum. And it was quite some time after
that that the trial ever started. And when Mr. Wade saw me at the airport and
said, "I want to see you and talk to you about this case," the trial,
of course, had not started at that time. So it was quite some time afterwards.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, what did Curry or Batchelor, whoever it was, tell you
when you told him of this?
Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, they said they could get the information.
That is all that I recall that they said.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when speaking to Wade at the interview
whether you adverted to the conversation you had had over the telephone with
either Batchelor or Wade, or possibly both?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I don't recall that that was mentioned.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any other conversation with any officers in the
police department? I mean about this aspect that we are talking about now?
Mr. SORRELS. I saw Captain Fritz at the district attorney's office the
day that I was down there and talked to him, and I cannot recall about whether
or not there was a conversation with him about who was present at that time or
not, because I remember discussing with Captain Fritz at that time that I didn't
think my testimony would be much benefit to the prosecution on that, or if it
would be admissible because of the fact I had not warned Ruby of his
constitutional rights.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that conversation?
Mr. SORRELS. That was the same time I was talking to Mr. Wade at his
office. This is when the trial of Ruby was actually in progress.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Fritz in the office?
Mr. SORRELS. He was in and out of there. He had walked in and walked out.
And I may have mentioned to him that--the fact that there was other officers
there besides Dean and myself. And I told Mr. Wade in Dean's presence that
certain things that Mr. Wade had asked me about, about Ruby saying that he had
been--I think somebody had been thinking 3 days about shooting this fellow--that
I heard no such statement, that I had left when I got the information I wanted.
In other words, when I was questioning Ruby, as I recall it, nobody was asking
him any questions except me, and when I got through I left.
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Mr. HUBERT. When did you find out that Dean and Archer had said or were
going to say that they heard Ruby say that he had intended to kill him 3 days
before?
Mr. SORRELS. I don't know that Archer said that--I don't remember his
name.
Mr. HUBERT. Dean--when did you learn that?
Mr. SORRELS. When Mr. Griffin asked me over the telephone if certain
statements were made, and I told him, in conversation with him, the statements
that Ruby had made to me, and he asked me if certain other statements were made,
and I said not to my knowledge, "I don't remember anything like that,"
and one of them was about whether or not Ruby came down the ramp, and I told him
at that time I didn't recall that statement having been made, and I didn't
believe that statement was made in my presence.
Mr. HUBERT. I thought you said in the interview with Wade you told him
you did not hear Ruby say that he had formed the intent to kill Oswald on
Friday.
Mr. SORRELS. No, no.
Mr. HUBERT, I am sorry.
Mr. SORRELS. No; I didn't hear that. Ruby didn't say that. I told Wade
that.
Mr. HUBERT. You did tell Wade that? Did Wade ask you that?
Mr. SORRELS. He asked me if certain statements were made, and I told him
no, not in my presence.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you had not heard of that even until Wade
brought it to your attention?
Mr. SORRELS. No--not that part. The thing that Mr. Griffin was asking me,
I think, as I recall it, was about the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. Wade asked you did you hear Ruby say, "I intended to
kill him since Friday night," and your answer was "No; I didn't"
Mr. SORRELS. No; I didn't hear it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Griffin mention in the telephone conversation he had
with you statements allegedly made, or knowledge allegedly in the possession of
Dean in regard to what Ruby had said?
Mr. SORRELS. I remember specifically there was a statement about him
coming down the ramp. I remember that. And it seems that--I wouldn't be positive
about that, but it seemed like there was something else that Dean was supposed
to have said in my presence, and I told him no I didn't hear anything like that.
Mr. HUBERT. I had thought you said that you told Wade that you had not
heard Dean say any such thing. But he asked you?
Mr. SORRELS. He asked me. No--you see, he had talked to Dean beforehand,
you see, about this. And I never had talked to Dean. As a matter of fact, I had
not seen him.
Mr. SMITH. I might say it was my impression at one time that Mr. Sorrels
said or indicated that in his conversation with Mr. Griffin, this question about
Ruby having premeditated this for 3 days came out in this conversation with
Mr. SORRELS. I don't think on the telephone conversation at that time.
Mr. SMITH. It came out in your conversation with----
Mr. SORRELS. With Wade.
Mr. SMITH. With Wade?
Mr. SORRELS. That is right. But I think--can this be off the record?
Mr. HUBERT. I would rather it go on.
Mr. SORRELS. All right. We will have it on the record. I have had other
conversations with Mr. Griffin subsequent to that time, and personally when he
was there at
Mr. HUBERT. In regard to the conversation with Mr. Griffin in
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March
24. Do you remember a conversation with Mr. Griffin about what Dean had said
then, and that you then told Mr. Griffin what your version of it was, and had in
fact--he asked you to prepare a memorandum or something for him, so that there
would be a record of what he had told him?
Mr. SORRELS. Along about this same thing?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, about this same matter, revolving around Dean and Dean's
testimony about what Ruby had said.
Mr. SORRELS. I remember that there was a conversation. It seems like I do
have a recollection. It slipped my mind. But since you mention something about a
memo--and you left rather suddenly, Mr. Griffin, as I recall it, right after
that.
Mr. HUBERT. That is on the 27th? The question is--you have not written a
memo?
Mr. SORRELS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any reason why?
Mr. SORRELS. No. As a matter of fact, it just slipped my mind, I guess,
because I cannot recall now just exactly what the memo was. But since he
mentioned that, it seems I do recall something about something I told him, and
he said, "Write me a memo about it."
Mr. HUBERT. Was Inspector Kelley present during your interrogation of
Oswald on Sunday morning for about 15 or 20 minutes, I think you said?
Mr. SORRELS. I don't believe so. He might have been. But I don't recall
that he was there.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have already testified that you and Mr. Kelley went
to Mr. Batchelor's office after Oswald left on Sunday morning.
Mr. SORRELS. It is my recollection that we did go there together.
Mr. HUBERT. Was anybody else there?
Mr. SORRELS. If we didn't, I met him up there.
Mr. HUBERT. Was anybody else there?
Mr. SORRELS. At the interview?
Mr. HUBERT. No, when you left, when Oswald left to go down to the
basement, you testified that you went with somebody, I think it was Tom
Kelley--went into Batchelor's office and looked out to watch the scene.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I think that was Tom Kelley there. Was anyone else there?
Mr. SORRELS. There was a number of officers around there.
I don't recall who all was there. I just don't recall who all was there.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how many officers or detectives were in Fritz'
office after Ruby had shot Oswald and had been brought up to Fritz' office?
Mr. SORRELS. No, I don't. There was a number of them around there.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any recollection that Dean was taken to escort
you up to Captain Fritz' office?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, I remember Dean went up the elevator with me.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember any comment that Dean made in Wade's office?
Mr. SORRELS. The only comment that I can remember that he made is when
Mr. Wade asked me if certain things were said by Ruby when I was talking to him
in the jail on the morning of November 24, when Dean was there, and I told him
no, that that statement was not made in my presence, I did not recall any
statement like that. And Dean said, "Well, maybe it was after you
left." And I said, "Well, if it was--if the statement was made, it
would have had to be after I left, because I don't recall any statement like
that."
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever find out how Wade or Curry or the police found
out about what Dean ultimately said?
Mr. SORRELS. Will you read that question again?
Mr. HUBERT. I said, did you ever find out how Wade and/or the police
found out themselves what Dean ultimately testified to?
Mr. SORRELS. No, I don't know anything about that--unless it is in the
court records down there in his testimony at the trial. Now, whether or not they
had talked to him before what his testimony would be, I could not say about
that, I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Wade or anyone else ever ask you to identify the two
uniformed officers?
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Mr. SORRELS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever consult with any of your superior officers in
your own service in regard to Wade's request that you testify?
Mr. SORRELS. I told Inspector Kelley that I might get involved in this
thing, and he said, "Well, if you are subpenaed you will just have to
testify what you know about it."
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't make a written report?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Was FBI Agent Hall present during the Fritz' interview?
Mr. SORRELS. I couldn't say. I don't think I know Agent Hall if he walked
in the door. I don't recall ever having met him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear Ruby say, "You all won't believe this,
but I didn't have this planned, and I couldn't have done it better if I had
planned it," or something to that effect?
Mr. SORRELS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now----
Mr. SORRELS. I don't recall any statement like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Stern is going to take over, and I am going to ask
him to handle the identification of your notes.
(Mr. Hubert left. Mr. Stern requested Mr. Griffin to handle the
identification of documents.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state that for the limited purpose of having Agent
Sorrels identify three sets of documents I am going to ask a series of questions
of Agent Sorrels.
Mr. Sorrels, I want to hand you a Xerox copy of a document which is a
part of our files, and numbered Commission No. 354, and is your Secret Service
serial 1,007, consisting of four pages, which you have previously identified,
and Mr. Hubert has marked "Deposition of Forrest Sorrels, Washington, D.C.,
May 6, 1964," and signed Leon D. Hubert.
I have added the additional designation "Exhibit 1," on the
first page of this four page exhibit. I want you to look at that and tell me if
that is in fact the same exhibit you identified previously as I have described
it.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let me hand you what I have marked for the purpose of
identification as deposition of Forrest Sorrels, May 6, 1964,
Would you examine Exhibits 2-A, 2-B, 2-C, and 2-D and compare them with
the pages of your notebook which you have referred to previously in the
deposition, and tell us if that is a true and exact copy of all of the notes
that you have that pertain to the 3:15 interview with Jack Ruby?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, that is correct.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you what I have marked for the purpose of
identification deposition of Forrest Sorrels, May 6, 1964, Washington, D.C.,
which is a document consisting of three pages, which I have numbered
consecutively Exhibit 3-A, Exhibit 3-B, Exhibit 3-C. This exhibit purports to be
a Xerox copy of notes that you took at an interview with Jack Ruby in the fifth
floor jail cell shortly after Ruby shot Lee Oswald on November 24. I want you to
compare these exhibits to pages which you have testified to previously are in
your notebook, and tell me if Exhibits 3-A, 3-B, and 3-C are true and exact
copies of those pages which appear in your notebook?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, they are. But there is portions that do not pertain to
the interview with Ruby in the
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, directing your attention to Exhibit 3-A, would you tell
us if that portion which pertains to Ruby--the Ruby interview in the jail cell,
and appears on that page, follows consecutively from some point on that page?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, from about the center of the page, below a wavy line
drawn
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across
it, continuing on the second page, marked Exhibit 3-B, and the third page marked
Exhibit 3-C, down to the lower portion ending with "deceased mother."
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, directing your attention to Exhibit 3-A,
would you read the first two lines on Exhibit 3-A that consist of the notes
taken at your interview with Ruby in the fifth floor jail cell?
Mr. SORRELS. "
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let me hand you again Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if
that is a true and accurate copy, to sign your name on the first page of that
exhibit.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, it is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you sign your name, then, on the first page of the
exhibit?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 2-A, B and
C, and D, and ask you if that is a true and accurate copy to sign your name on
the first page of Exhibit 2-A.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you, Mr. Sorrels, Exhibit 3-A, B, and C, and ask
you the same question with respect to that, and ask you to do the same thing.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let the record reflect that I am putting my initials,
BWG, on pages 2-A, 2-B, 2-C, and 2-D. Let the record reflect I have done the
same thing with pages 3-A, 3-B, and 3-C.
Mr. STERN. Mr. Smith, are there any questions you would like to ask Mr.
Sorrels at this stage of his deposition, to clarify any points on the record?
Mr. SMITH Yes, just with respect to one point.
Mr. STERN. Please go ahead.
Mr. SMITH. Mr. Sorrels, you testified that in your interview with Jack
Ruby in the jail, you did not warn him of his constitutional rights.
Was this due to oversight on your part?
Mr. SORRELS. No, it was not.
Mr. SMITH. Will you state, then, the reason why you did not do so?
Mr. SORRELS. My purpose in getting to Jack Ruby and talking to him as
quickly as I did was to determine whether or not he was involved with anyone
else in connection with the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald, and also to determine
whether or not Jack Ruby had any connection or association with Lee Harvey
Oswald. I did not warn him of his constitutional rights, because insofar as I
was concerned at this particular interview, my conversation with him was
not--strike was not--had no bearing insofar as the murder case against Jack Ruby
was concerned.
My purpose was trying to obtain information for my service to determine
whether or not there were others involved in this case that would be of concern
to the Secret Service in connection with their protective duties of the
President of the United States and the Vice President.
Mr. STERN. Is there anything else, Mr. Smith, you would like to cover?
Mr. SMITH. No. Thank you.
Mr. STERN. Mr. Sorrels, you have had a lengthy session here today. If it
is convenient for you, I would prefer to carry on that part of it that I am
interested in tomorrow morning, rather than to try to finish late today.
Would that be convenient for you?
Mr. SORRELS. That is
satisfactory for me, yes.
Mr. STERN. Fine. Why don't we suspend now and resume in the morning.
Contact Information tomnln@cox.net
TESTIMONY OF FORREST V. SORRELS
The testimony of Forrest V. Sorrels was taken at 1 p.m., on May 6, 1964, at 200
Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin, Leon D.
Hubert, Jr., and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's
Commission. Fred B. Smith, Deputy General Counsel, U.S. Treasury Department was
present.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Sorrels, my name is Leon Hubert. I will be taking your
deposition this afternoon, and so will Mr. Samuel Stern. We are both members of
the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President's Commission, that is
to say Mr. Rankin.
Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the
Joint Resolution of Congress, No. 137, and rules of procedure adopted by the
Commission in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution,
both Mr. Stern and I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you,
Mr. Sorrels. Of course you will take an oath a little later on. Is it understood
between us that this statement of my authority and of Mr. Stern's authority is
sufficient to carry for both depositions--in other words, it will be really a
continuation of the deposition by Mr. Stern on another area. Is that understood?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it understood also that the oath you are going to take will be
applicable to the testimony elicited from you by me, as well as that elicited
from you by Mr. Stern?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's
inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee
Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Sorrels, the nature of the inquiry
today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and other
pertinent facts which you may know about the general inquiry.
Mr. Sorrels, you have appeared today by virtue of a verbal request made by us at
the direction of the General Counsel. Under the rules adopted by the Cornmission,
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all witnesses are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of
their deposition. But the rules also provide that a witness may waive this
notice. I ask you now if you are willing to waive the 3-day written notice
provided for by the rules of the Commission.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Then I will ask you to stand and be sworn. Do you
solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. SORRELS. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name.
Mr. SORRELS. Forrest V. Sorrels.
Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, Mr. Sorrels?
Mr. SORRELS. Sixty-three.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside now?
Mr. SORRELS. 3319 Hanover, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?
Mr. SORRELS. Special agent in charge of the Dallas district of the United States
Secret Service.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, before I go any further, I should like the record to show that
Mr. Fred B. Smith----
Mr. SMITH. Deputy General Counsel, United States Treasury Department.
Mr. HUBERT. Is present--in what capacity?
Mr. SMITH. I guess observer on behalf of the Secretary of Treasury.
Mr. HUBERT. And Mr. Burt Griffin, also a member of the staff of the General
Counsel of the President's Commission, is also present.
Now, Mr. Sorrels, I would like for you to state to us the general background,
your history, sort of a biographical sketch, if you will, starting off with your
education and on to date.
Mr. SORRELS. I was born in Red River County, Tex., on a farm, September 16,
1901; later moved to a little town nearby called Bogata, Tex. I lived there
until 1916, when my family moved to El Paso, Tex. I resided there until 1935.
I went to El Paso High School and after graduation attended Draughon's Business
College, taking typing and shorthand and bookkeeping. I then went to work for a
small wholesale grocery, worked there for only a short time, and then went to
work for a brick company, worked there a very short time, and then obtained
employment as a clerk in the office of Bureau of Narcotics, Treasury Department,
in El Paso, Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. What year was that, sir?
Mr. SORRELS. That was in 1922. I worked there for about a year and went back to
the brick company. I was only there a short time when I learned of a clerical
position in the office of the United States Secret Service at El Paso. I later
was employed in that position on July 6, 1923. That was a two-man office, and I
began very shortly after employment there assisting and helping in investigative
work.
In 1926, the special agent in charge was transferred from there, and prior to
that time I had been appointed as what was known at that time as an operative,
which is comparable to our special agent of today. He transferred from there to
Dallas about July of 1926, and I was left as acting agent in charge of that
office. In October that "acting" was removed, and I continued there in the
capacity of agent in charge until 1935, when I was transferred to Dallas as
special agent in charge there. In 1936 I was transferred to New Orleans as
acting supervising agent of a newly created setup whereby the States of Texas,
Louisiana, and Mississippi were in what was known at that time as the Tenth
District.
In 1938, the headquarters office was moved from New Orleans to Houston. In 1941
it was moved from Houston to Dallas. Subsequent to that time, the organization
of the 15 supervising agents was abandoned, and each office reported direct into
the headquarters office in Washington, excepting a very few that were known as
resident agency officers.
I have continued in that capacity as special agent in charge of the Dallas
district, and am so employed at the present time.
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Mr. HUBERT. So that you have been special agent in charge actually of the Dallas
district since 1938.
Mr. SORRELS. Actually--it was in my territory since 1935, but the office was
moved back there in 1941, and I have been there ever since.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have lived there.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What does the Dallas territory now, under your jurisdiction, and
control, consist of?
Mr. SORRELS. Roughly it consists of the northern half of Texas, exclusive of the
territory west of the Pecos River. We have in the Dallas district the entire
northern judicial district of Texas, the Waco division of the western district
of Texas, the Tyler, Jefferson, Texarkana, Parris, and Sherman divisions of the
eastern district of Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. By divisions, you mean divisions in the United States court system?
Mr. SORRELS. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. How many men do you have?
Mr. SORRELS. At the present time we have six special agents besides myself.
Mr. HUBERT. They all work out of Dallas?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. One special agent actually headquarters, so to speak, in
Fort Worth. He remains in that section most of the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us something about your family.
Mr. SORRELS. I am married.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been married?
Mr. SORRELS. I have a daughter 16 years of age and a younger daughter 7 years of
age. I have 2 children by a former marriage, a son who is a captain in the
United States Army and a daughter who is married to an employee of the IBM
Company in New York City.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been married to your present wife?
Mr. SORRELS. Since 1946.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Sorrels, Mr. Stern is going to take a deposition with respect to
security measures and other matters, I think, in regard to the President. I am
going to depose you with reference to a number of matters concerning principally
the security of Oswald after he was arrested and until his death, and your
activities with reference to Ruby after he had shot Oswald.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, getting into the first matter, can you tell us what you
observed yourself of the security measures which were in effect and actually
operating with reference to Oswald after his arrest.
Mr. SORRELS. The first time that I saw Oswald was on the afternoon of November
22 as he was coming out of Capt. Will Fritz' office in the Dallas Police
Department on the third floor.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that?
Mr. SORRELS. The exact time I cannot give you, because I had been working at a
frantic pace. It was some time probably past the middle of the afternoon. I had
previously been informed by my office that Captain Fritz had endeavored to
locate me because he had a suspect in custody. And when I arrived there, Captain
Fritz was in his office, apparently talking to the suspect, whom I determined to
be Lee Harvey Oswald.
As he was being removed from the office, I told Captain Fritz that I would like
to talk to this man when an opportunity was afforded, and he remarked "You can
talk to him right now--just go right around the corner there by the side of the
office," which I did.
Oswald was brought around and was seated there. There were a number of other
officers present, detectives, I think possibly some FBI agents, and maybe some
of my agents had come in in the meantime.
I started to----
Mr. HUBERT. Before you go into that, would you tell us about the security
measures that you observed with reference to protecting the person of Oswald
from the time you first saw him, say up until the time you have reached now.
Mr. SORRELS. As far as I know, there was no one except authorized officers
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in that particular area at that time. I did not see anyone that I recognized to
be other than an officer.
Mr. HUBERT. No news people in the corridor of the third floor?
Mr. SORRELS. I am talking about inside the office now. In the corridor, that was
an entirely different situation because there were cameras set up, tripods,
still photographers, photographers with cameras in their hands, and newspapermen
in large numbers in the hallways.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, for example, when Captain Fritz afforded you an
opportunity to speak to Oswald and indicated that you could do so at a little
office around the corner, did that mean that you had to pass Oswald out of
Fritz' office, and through this third floor corridor, where all the newsmen were
gathered?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. That was still within Fritz' office?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; in other words, there was an office there, and Captain
Fritz had an office built within that office just merely to take him out of the
door and right around the corner of his inside office there.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you did interview Oswald.
Mr. SORRELS. I talked to him, started asking him questions, and he was
belligerent and arrogant in his attitude and he said to me, "I don't know who
you fellows are, a bunch of cops."
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you speak to him
Mr. SORRELS. Not very long.
Mr. HUBERT. In point of time.
Mr. SORRELS. Not over--I don't think over 10 minutes at the most.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what happened to him after that?
Mr. SORRELS. As far as I know, he was taken back to the jail.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, taking him back to the jail would involve passing him out of
Fritz' office, through the corridor, and to the jail elevator, is that correct?
Mr. SOERELS. That is correct; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what security precautions you observed with
reference to his person after he was out of Fritz' office?
Mr. SORRELS. They of course had him handcuffed when they removed him, and
several detectives accompanied him as they left out, in front--someone went
ahead. And as I recall it there was at least one on the side, and then some
brought up the rear.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not go up to the jail?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe any system of identification of the people who were
on the third floor?
Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, when I first went down there I had no particular
difficulty getting in, because most of the officers there know me, from my years
of being in that city. But subsequent to that time I would have to identify
myself many times. This was to uniformed police officers that were on duty. And
I would have to show my commission book in order to get into Captain Fritz'
office, or else get into the executive offices there, where the chief of police
and the deputy chief offices were located.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe any officers posted at the entrances to the area, to
the third floor area?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were they?
Mr. SORRELS. By the elevator, and then there were uniformed officers at Captain
Fritz' door.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe them requiring identification by other persons? I
mean you described how they required you to identify yourself. Did you notice
whether they did so with other people, and if so, what did they do?
Mr. SORRELS. I cannot say that I did, because usually when I get through
identifying myself, I either went to the executive suite, where the chief's
office was, or right direct to Captain Fritz' office. But on a number of
occasions, the officers that were on duty there, before I can get my commission
book out, some of the newsmen or photographers there that knew me would
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say, "He is Sorrels of the Secret Service." I, upon being recognized and
identifying myself, would be admitted. Some of the officers on duty there of
course after the second or third time they would recognize me, and I would have
no difficulty getting in. But I cannot say that I saw anyone else being required
to identify themselves, because I did not hang around the places where the
officers were.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that the security conditions that you just described
were in effect for the entire period of November 22 through November 24--that
is, on the third floor?
Mr. SORRELS. Captain Fritz' office definitely yes--going into his office. I do
not recall having to identify myself to get onto the third floor on the 22d when
I first got down there. But subsequent to that time, I do recall having to
identify myself almost every time I went up there.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the general condition of the third floor area from point of
personnel, equipment, and so forth?
Mr. SORRELS. I guess you could term it more or less deplorable, because of the
fact that they had so many cameras with tripods and cables and wires and
photographers and reporters that you would have to step over tripods and wires
and almost elbow your way to get in and out of the place. And every time you
would come out of it--Captain Fritz' office they would turn on those bright
lights, and you would have to shield your eyes almost to keep from being
temporarily blinded.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you mean--that last condition you described took place when
anybody came out of Fritz' office, or when they came out with Oswald?
Mr. SORRELS. No--I would not say just anybody, but many times when I would start
out, the minute they would see anyone coming out of the door, they would turn
the lights on, I guess to be prepared in case Oswald or anyone else that they
wished to photograph would come out.
Mr. HUBERT. During the period that we are talking about, that is, say, from the
arrest of Oswald the first time you saw him until the 24th, I take it that you
observed Oswald being moved from Captain Fritz' office to the jail elevator at
least quite a number of times.
Mr. SORRELS. I can only recall two times, I believe. The first time is when he
was taken out of Captain Fritz' office on the afternoon of the 22d. Then there
were two other occasions I knew of when he was brought back into Captain Fritz'
office and when he was taken out. I remember that many times. In other words,
about three going out and two coming in I can definitely recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you recall that while he was being so moved on any one of
those occasions, that he was addressed by the press or questions asked him, or
remarks made to him?
Mr. SORRELS. No, because the time that I saw him he was in Captain Fritz' office
or being removed from his office. I never saw him in the hallway that I can
recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I thought you had mentioned a little while ago that on the
first occasion you did observe him--after you had interviewed him for about 10
minutes--you did observe him move out of Fritz' office and go to the elevator.
Mr. SORRELS. I think your question, as I understand it, sir, was that he was
removed from Captain Fritz' office to the elevator. I did not see him taken down
the hallway.
Mr. HUBERT. I see; I did misunderstand you.
Mr. SORRELS. Sorry.
Mr. HUBERT. So you do not know really whether or not any news media or any other
people asked him questions and made remarks to him while he was going from
Fritz' office to the elevator.
Mr. SORRELS. Not of my personal knowledge; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Could those news people see into Fritz' office from the hallway?
Mr. SORRELS. They could see into the outer office, but they could not very well
see into his office unless they actually came inside the office within which his
office is located. You have got one door that faces on the west side of the
office, and then Captain Fritz' there faces north. So that it would be a
question of someone might see just a corner portion of his office from the
hallway door,
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which is glass at the top, but they would not be able to see anyone sitting, for
example, where Oswald would have been sitting at the time that I saw him in
Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, there was a glass door to what might be called the
outer office of Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. SORRELS. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. But the inner office, while it had a glass door, it did not face on
an area in which the press was located.
Mr. SORRELS. That's right. It also had Venetian-type blinds on the doors, and
the other part of his office was glass from the upper part.
Mr. HUBERT. While you were up there at any time during the period we are talking
about, did you ever observe anyone known to you to be a civilian who was not
either a police officer or connected with the news media in some way?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I do not; well, I will take that back. You are talking about
when Oswald was around?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, yes. But also I want to broaden it to any time.
Mr. SORRELS. The reason I asked that question is that Jack Ruby's sister was in
his office with another lady after Ruby was in custody, and at that time they
were in there with Mr. Jim Underwood from radio station KRLD who was trying to
make arrangements for Ruby's sister to get up in the jail to see him. But prior
to that, I do not know, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, were you present at a meeting at which the news media were
present and Oswald was brought into an assembly room, in which the news media
were assembled?
Mr. SORRELS. I was present when Oswald was brought into what is called the
lineup room, which is also the assembly room. They have the lineup section at
one end of it. That was on the evening of November 22. At that time it was my
request, because a witness who had been interviewed by me, and who had seen the
person fire the third shot from the window of the Book Depository Building, I
had gotten in touch with him through one of our agents, and he was brought down
there for the specific purpose of being able to see Oswald, because when he was
first interviewed by me he stated that he thought he could identify him.
Mr. HUBERT. That was in fact, however, a true lineup for the purpose of
identification.
Mr. SORRELS. I am sorry--I did not understand the question.
Mr. HUBERT. I said that was a true lineup for the purpose of identification.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I was speaking of another meeting where the assembly room usually
used for the lineup was used to give the press an opportunity to see Oswald.
Mr. SORRELS. I was not present. That is the only time I saw Oswald in the
lineup.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware at any time on the 22d of the concern expressed by
Mr. J. Edgar Hoover in regard to the security of Oswald, and allegedly
transmitted to the Dallas people?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you become aware of that later?
Mr. SORRELS. I do not recall ever having heard anything to that effect.
Mr. HUBERT. Even now you do not?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby at all?
Mr. SORRELS. Not before this incident took place; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not even know he existed?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir. As a matter of fact, when I first heard Oswald had been
shot, I understood the name to be Jack Rubin, and in my first report to my
headquarters office I gave them the name of Jack Rubin--R-u-b-i-n, an operator
of a nightclub. That is the first information I got. I just misunderstood the
pronunciation of the last word.
Mr. HUBERT. I think I have already asked this question in a general way--
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that is to say, you have covered the area in a general way. But I think for the
record I should make it more specific.
You have now come to know a man by the name of Jack Ruby, to the extent that you
could recognize him, I suppose.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us whether you saw him in or about the police
department building at any time after the President was shot, and until Ruby
shot Oswald?
Mr. SORRELS. I have no recollection of having seen a man whom I know now to be
Jack Ruby before I saw him in the Dallas City Jail on the fifth floor.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, we can pass, I think, for my purposes--and mind you, Mr. Stern
might cover some of these areas again, but this is the way this is being
handled.
You did see Oswald, I think, on Sunday morning, November 24?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us where and at what time?
Mr. SORRELS. That was in the office of Capt. Will Fritz of the homicide division
of the Dallas Police Department. It was somewhere around 11 o'clock in the
morning, and he was removed from Captain Fritz' office at approximately I guess
about 11:15.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of your interviewing him that morning?
Mr. SORRELS. We, of course, were interested in any statement that Oswald might
make relating to any phase of the assassination of the President. Particularly,
I was interested in trying to obtain an admission from him that he had used the
name of A. Hidell as an alias, because information had been developed that he
had purchased the rifle which was found on the sixth floor of the Book
Depository under the name of A. Hidell.
There was a change of address card which he had filed in New Orleans, as I
recall it, on which it was shown that persons to receive mail at the address
given, the name of A. Hidell appeared. And after Captain Fritz got through
questioning him on the morning of November 24, he asked if any of the officers
present in the room desired to ask him any questions. And I said, "Yes; I would
like to ask him a question."
In the meantime, Chief of Police Jesse Curry had come to Captain Fritz' office,
and inquired about the delay in moving him out. And Captain Fritz informed that
he was still talking to him.
Mr. HUBERT. Captain Fritz informed----
Mr. SORRELS. Informed Chief Curry----
Mr. HUBERT. That he was or you were?
Mr. SORRELS. That he was. And a very short time after that is when I had an
opportunity to ask Oswald some questions. I showed Oswald the change of address
card----
Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you this: Was your interrogation of him cut off, as it
were, by the transfer?
Mr. SORRELS. By the transfer?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SORRELS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you finished with him?
Mr. SORRELS. I had finished----
Mr. HUBERT. As to that point?
Mr. SORRELS. As to that point; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, you would have had access to him, I think, at
the county jail, anyhow, would you not?
Mr. SORRELS. I had certainly planned on having access to him, and I am sure I
would have. As a matter of fact, I had in my mind to start talking to him that
afternoon.
Mr. HUBERT. What I wanted to clarify is whether or not your effort to
interrogate him was interrupted. But I gather that it was not.
Mr. SORRELS. No, I would say not. Possibly, had he remained there, I might have
attempted to ask him more questions. But he was not giving out much information.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, during the whole time that Oswald was in custody
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of the Dallas Police Department, did you find that any obstacles or hindrances
were put in your way of examining him?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; except had he been in our own custody, there would have
been a chance to have questioned him without others being present, or so many
others being present.
Mr. HUBERT. At the time that you were in Fritz' office, on November 24, did you
hear any plans discussed for the transfer of Oswald?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I did not say that I heard anything about any plans. I do
recall that Oswald requested to have some of his clothes brought down there,
because his shirt that he had on when he was arrested had been taken from him, I
think, for laboratory examination. And Captain Fritz sent and got some of his
clothes, and he selected kind of a sweater-type----
Mr. HUBERT. But you did not hear the officers of the Dallas police force
discussing the method of transportation and the security measures that they had
planned and put into operation?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; I did hear a part of it, I recall now. There was some
suggestion about transporting him in an armored car. Captain Fritz objected to
that because of--one reason that I recall was what effect it might have in his
trial, that that might prejudice the prosecution by him being transported in an
armored car, which is not of course ordinarily used in the transportation of
prisoners in that area.
Another thing that I recall is that Captain Fritz thought that the armored car
would be a bit cumbersome and it would not be able to maneuver as easily as a
car. And it was his desire to take him in a police car with escorts.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear anyone suggest that the plan then proposed, and
ultimately carried out in part, at least, should be changed so as to bypass the
press, as it were?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I did not. At that time there was no way to bypass them,
because they were out in the hall. As I had come to the building, I even noticed
cameras down in the basement of the city hall there.
Mr. SMITH. Could I interrupt just a second, sir. I may be completely wrong about
this, but wasn't there something about the time of transporting him?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. As I understand it, some of the reporters had inquired of
Chief Jesse Curry as to whether or not he was going to transport him to the
county jail on the night of November 23.
Now, this is hearsay, that the reporters wanted to be relieved so they could get
some sleep if he was not going to be transported that night--they would go home
and get some rest.
Chief Curry himself told me that he had said something to this effect, "Go on
home and get your sleep, there won't be anything doing before 10 o'clock
tomorrow morning."
As I recall, I think the newspapers then published the fact that he would be
moved at 10 o'clock in the morning, or words to that effect.
Mr. SMITH. I just wanted to get the full story, because I remembered him having
mentioned something about this. I do not know whether it is important.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, in that connection, had you heard that the FBI had received an
anonymous phone call from someone advising that an effort, by a group of men,
would be made to kill Oswald?
Mr. SORRELS. I do not recall that I had heard any such report at that time. I
did hear that there had been an anonymous call come into the police department
that someone would try to kill him when they removed him, or words to that
effect. But that, I believe, was subsequent to the time he was actually shot. I
do not recall that morning of having heard anything about that. And I definitely
did not hear anything about a group. I remembered something about it later on,
but I never heard anything about it at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear of any plans made as to the actual route that would be
followed in transporting Oswald?
Mr. SORRELS. Not before Oswald was shot.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why, from anything you knew then, or have learned since,
the cameramen and so forth were all congregated in the basement area?
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Mr. SORRELS. Would you read that question again?
Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is this: You testified a moment ago that
when you came in you saw all the press people with their cameras and so forth in
the basement area.
Mr. SORRELS. Not all of them. I said I saw some down there.
Mr. HUBERT. Which would indicate that they either had guessed or had somehow
become aware that--that would indicate that they either had guessed or had
somehow become aware that that would be a point on the route to be taken at
which they could get pictures. And I was wondering if you had heard anything
prior to that time about the route, or had you heard that these people had been
informed of the route?
Mr. SORRELS. No; nothing about the route. The basement is used by the police
generally. They have a passageway which comes from Main Street down into the
basement, and then the exit continues on out to Commerce Street, and the police
cars that bring prisoners in use the basement. In other words, they drive the
car right down to the basement, and the actual receiving office, the receiving
office for the jail is on the basement floor.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall ever having spoken to either Curry or some other
member of the police department about the possibility of moving Oswald in a way
other than that which was planned?
Mr. SORRELS. When I heard that they were supposed to take him out at 10
o'clock--that was the announcement and so forth on the radio and in the
papers--I remarked to Captain Fritz that if I were he, I would not remove Oswald
from the city hall or city jail to the county jail at an announced time; that I
would take him out at 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning when there was no one
around.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know when you told that to Fritz?
Mr. SORRELS. That was on the Sunday morning, before he was removed.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell that to any other person?
Mr. SORRELS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was any other person present when you told that to Fritz?
Mr. SORRELS. No; not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. What caused you to give that advice to Captain Fritz?
Mr. SORRELS. The importance of the prisoner, to my mind, was such that in order
to remove the opportunity for some crackpot or anyone who might feel inclined to
try to kill the prisoner, if the removal was made more or less unannounced or in
secret, that those opportunities would have been at least lessened to a great
degree.
Captain Fritz said that Chief Curry did not want to--let's reverse that just a
bit--that Chief Curry wanted to go along with the press and not try to put
anything over on them; or words to that effect.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you gather from what Fritz told you that the reason why your
suggestion was not acceptable was that Fritz at least thought that captain--that
Chief Curry did not want to break his word, as it were, to the press?
Mr. SORRELS. I didn't consider it so much as breaking his word as I would that
he did not want to tell them one thing, or in other words, move him out without
the press being aware of the fact--let's put it that way. That was my
impression.
Mr. HUBERT. What time was it, about, do you know, that you made that suggestion?
Mr. SORRELS. That was pretty close to 11:15 in the morning, just a short time
before they got ready to move him.
Mr. HUBERT. You do not know, do you, whether he conveyed your thought to Chief
Curry?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I do not. I doubt that he did, because Chief Curry had left
Fritz' office at that time, as I recall it.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember about what time it was when the Oswald move began
from Fritz' office?
Mr. SORRELS. It was shortly after 11:15 in the morning, as I recall it. In other
words----
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go down with the party carrying him down?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; I did not. Inspector Kelley and I went to the office of
Chief Batchelor, which is also on the third floor, and on the south side of the
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building, on the Commerce Street side, and we were observing the people across
the street from the city hall, as apparently they had been moved over there by
officers on duty down below. And we just saw several people over there that were
apparently waiting for an opportunity to see them take the prisoner out.
Mr. HUBERT. When you arrived at Chief Batchelor's office, at the point you have
just described, to wit, the windows looking out on Commerce Street, do you know
whether Oswald had been shot?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I don't think so, because that was immediately--in other words,
when they took Oswald out, I went right on down to the chief's office, that is
right on the same floor. And we were there for a few minutes before we heard
that he had been shot.
Mr. HUBERT. But the Oswald party left Fritz' office before you and Mr. Kelley
did?
Mr. SORRELS. I am rather positive that he was taken out before I left, yes;
because I remember about bringing the clothes in there, and Oswald selecting, I
think, a sweater or something like that. I actually have no independent
recollection of seeing him going through the door or anything like that. He
could have been there when we walked out. But it is my impression that he was
taken out and shortly thereafter Mr. Kelley and I went to Chief Batchelor's
office.
Mr. HUBERT. Did that involve walking a distance on the same floor of about how
many feet?
Mr. SORRELS. Oh, possibly a 100 feet, 110, something like that. Captain Fritz'
office is not at the entirely opposite end of the building, but Chief
Batchelor's office is. You go into the executive area there, and you cut over to
the left-hand corner, and Chief Batchelor's office is in the corner.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you first learn that Ruby had shot Oswald?
Mr. SORRELS. One of the police officers that was on duty in the executive area
there told us that Oswald had been shot in the basement--in the stomach, as I
recall it.
Mr. HUBERT. You were still in Batchelor's office at the time you were told that?
Mr. SORRELS. I think we were right outside the office, in the area there. I do
not believe we were actually in his office at that particular time. I think we
had stepped outside there. And that I do not think was over, oh, I would say a
maximum of possibly 10 minutes, from the time we left Captain Fritz' office to
go to Chief Batehelor's office.
Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the time that this policeman advised you that Oswald had
been shot, did you notice any commotion or anything to indicate something wrong
going on on Commerce Street?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you were standing at the window looking down, as I understand
it, on the scene on Commerce Street, waiting actually to see the procession go
out. But this officer told you this at the entrance to Batchelor's office?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. I was not at the window at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. You had moved away?
Mr. SORRELS. We had walked away from the window, I think, just killing time, I
guess. And we were actually in the outside of Batchelor's office, but in that
area there.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. What did you do?
Mr. SORRELS. I immediately rushed down to the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you go--by what route?
Mr. SORRELS. I grabbed an elevator, as I recall it.
Mr. HUBERT. Public elevator or the jail elevator?
Mr. SORRELS. No; a public elevator--and got down to the basement floor, and I
headed right into the jailer's office. And at that time Oswald was laying on the
floor and someone was giving him artificial respiration.
Mr. HUBERT. By mechanical means?
Mr. SORRELS. No; by hand. I recall seeing his stomach was uncovered, his shirt
was pulled up like that, and the man apparently was over him giving him
artificial respiration by his hands.
I went to a telephone, which is in the jail office there, up against the wall,
and
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called my headquarters office and told Deputy Chief Paterni that Oswald had been
shot by a man named Jack Rubin--that is how I understood it at that time who
operated a nightclub, and that was all the information I had at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Paterni was in Washington?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That was a long-distance call?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time the call was made, did you use a direct line?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I called it on the security phone, which we use in connection
with matters pertaining to the protection of prisoners. In other words, the
Signal Corps----
(Witness provided telephone number.)
Mr. HUBERT. And you can use that on any telephone?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. HURERT. Is that a security matter?
Mr. SORRELS. I beg your pardon?
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a security matter, that telephone number?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes--Signal Corps.
Mr. HUBERT. I think the record should show that the witness stated the number
that was called, but that we are not going to have it as a part of the record
because it is a security matter.
You, Mr. Reporter, will delete the number from the transcript.
What I was trying to get at is have you ascertained at what time that call was
made?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I have not.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it be possible to do so?
Mr. SORRELS. I could not answer that question, because I do not know what
records are kept.
Mr. HUBERT. Does it go as a long-distance call?
Mr. SORRELS. A long-distance call collect; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then the telephone company probably would have a record of it?
Mr. SORRELS. Possibly so. It is my understanding that at that time they were not
actually making any record of calls--they were coming in so fast, the employees
of the telephone company told me those calls--they put people through and were
not concerned about time.
Mr. HUBERT. Was this done by direct dialing or through the operator?
Mr. SORRELS. Through the operator.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was a collect call?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It would have to be charged to the government?
Mr. SORRELS. If it was recorded; yes, it would be, to that particular phone.
Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if you would be so kind as to undertake to ascertain for us
if there exists a record on that point, because, as you know, we are interested
in very narrow areas of time here.
Mr. SORRELS I would say this--that the time can be established within a matter
of a very few minutes, because Oswald was still on the floor and had not been
removed to the hospital at the time.
Mr. HUBERT. That is right.
But you see, I have estimates of time from other people, and I want to see how
it conforms. And therefore, to tie it in, could you give us your estimate of how
many minutes or parts of minutes elapsed between the time you made your call,
you initiated it, and the time that Oswald actually moved out?
Mr. SORRELS. That I cannot tell you, because I was not there when he was moved
out. I left then that area as soon as I made that call.
Mr. HUBERT. He was still in the area when you made the call?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
The call went through very quickly. And I left that area then and went back to
Captain Fritz' office, because I was interested in talking to the man who had
shot Oswald as quickly as possible.
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Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you went down there to the jail office and saw Oswald, as
you testified, and made the call, was Jack Ruby there?
Mr. SORRELS. I did not see him.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. HURERT. To your knowledge, he had already been removed?
Mr. SORRELS. That is correct; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, how did you get up to Fritz' office?
Mr. SORRELS. I went back up the elevator, the regular public elevator, and went
to his office and inquired of Captain Fritz, and I was informed that he was not
there, that he had gone to the hospital. I then asked him where was Jack Rubin.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, you had been informed at that time that the last
name of Jack Ruby was Rubin, R-u-b-i-n?
Mr. SORRELS. I still--as far as I knew, it was R-u-b-i-n, because that is the
way I gave it. I asked him where he was, and they said he was on the fifth
floor. And I said I would like to talk to him. And----
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you say that to?
Mr. SORRELS. I do not recall who it was--some of the detectives down there.
Mr. HUBERT. In Fritz' office?
Mr. SORRELS. In Captain Fritz' office; yes. And Officer Dean was instructed to
take me up to where he was.
Mr. HUBERT. Who instructed Dean to do that?
Mr. SORRELS. The same officer I was talking to--I don't remember who it was, but
someone apparently----
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Dean prior to that time?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I cannot say that I did. So----
Mr. HUBERT. Where was Dean?
Mr. SORRELS. That was in the detective office, Captain Fritz----
Mr. HUBERT. What was he doing?
Mr. SORRELS. I don't know what he was doing.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, the same officer to whom you made inquiry concerning
where Captain Fritz was and where Ruby was, that officer directed Dean, who was
in Fritz' office, to take you up?
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
And we walked out then in the hallway to the jail elevator. Now, that is a
different one from the one I came to Fritz' office in. And I was taken to the
fifth floor, and there I saw Ruby, whom I later found out to be Ruby, standing
there with, as I recall it, two uniformed police officers. And I introduced
myself to him, showed him my credentials, and told him that I would like to ask
him some questions.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, was this a cell, or what sort of a room was it?
Mr. SORRELS. It wasn't what you would call a cell, but the elevator--you had to
open up a door with bars on it to get into the area there. And----
Mr. HUBERT. How large a room was that?
Mr. SORRELS. It wasn't very large, as I recall it.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us something by way of dimensions in feet?
Mr. SORRELS. I would say in width it was probably about, oh, 6 or 7 feet wide.
Now, as to length, I would not be able to say exactly how long it was, because I
was not interested in the size of the room or anything at that time, and I paid
no attention to it.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there tables and furniture and chairs in it?
Mr. SORRELS. No; nothing.
Mr. HUBERT. Nothing at all?
Mr. SORRELS. No; nothing. He was standing there. He only had his shorts on. His
clothes had been removed.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Dean go into that room with you?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So that there were you and Dean and Ruby in the room?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you mentioned there were two other officers?
Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, there were two uniformed police officers there.
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Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who they were?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I do not.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, to get it clear--I do not mean if you knew who they were at the
time, but do you now know who they were?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I do not know who they are now.
Mr. HUBERT. And there were only those two?
Mr. SORRELS. There were possibly some other officers came in. I do not recall
that they were there at the time we got there, but there might have been others
came in. As I recall, there was somebody behind me. I wasn't interested in them.
I was only interested in talking to this man as quickly as I could.
Mr. HUBERT. Before we get into the details, can you tell us how long this
interview with Ruby lasted?
Mr. SORRELS. I would say possibly not over 5 to 7 minutes, not very long.
Mr. HUBERT. What brought it to an end?
Mr. SORRELS. I had gotten the information that I desired at that time, and was
anxious to get it back into Washington, because I had been asked to get as much
information as I could quickly, and get it back to them up there, something
about his background, who he was and so forth.
Mr. HUBERT. So that during that interview, which lasted approximately 5 to 7
minutes, your thought is--you know that there was Dean and yourself and Ruby,
and you also know that there were two other officers whose names you do not know
even now, and you think that there might have been one or more others who came
in?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes--in plainclothes. I don't recall any other uniformed officers
there.
Mr. HUBERT. And you do not recall, I suppose, or do not know now the names of
any of those other people who might have come in?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I could not tell you who they were at all.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think you have made a report of that interview, and a later
one, and we will offer that in evidence a little later.
But I would like to ask you now if Ruby made any statement to your knowledge at
that time, and that is the first interview you had with him, concerning whether
he had been in the assembly room on the night of the 22d when Oswald was brought
in so that the press could observe him?
Mr. SORRELS. Not at that time; no, sir. He did later.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he at that time, the first interview, indicate anything, or say
anything which would indicate what his motive or reason for his act was?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; and I might say that it was at that time that I found out his
name was Ruby in place of Rubin, and he informed me his name had formerly been
Rubinstein, and that he had had his name changed in Dallas.
I asked him--after I identified myself, I told him I would like to ask him some
questions.
He said, "For newspapers or magazines?" I said, "No; for myself."
He appeared to be considering whether or not he was going to answer my
questions, and I told him that I had just come from the third floor, and had
been looking out of the window, and that I had seen Honest Joe, who is a Jewish
merchant there, who operates a second-hand loan pawn shop, so to speak,
specializing in tools, on Elm Street, and who is more or less known in the area
because of the fact that he takes advantage of any opportunity to get free
advertising. He at that time had an Edsel car, which is somewhat a rarity now,
all painted up with "Honest Joe" on there. He wears jackets with "Honest Joe" on
the back. He gets writeups in the paper, free advertising about different things
he loans money on, like artificial limbs and things like that. And I had noticed
Honest Joe across the street when I was looking out of Chief Batchelor's office.
So I remarked to Jack Ruby, I said, "I just saw Honest Joe across the street
over there, and I know a number of Jewish merchants here that you know."
And Ruby said, "That is good enough for me. What is it you want to know?"
And I said these two words, "Jack---why?"
He said, "When this thing happened"--referring to the assassination, that he was
in a newspaper office placing an ad for his business. That when he heard
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about the assassination, he had canceled his ad and had closed his business, and
he had not done any business for 3 days. That he had been grieving about this
thing. That on the Friday night he had gone to the synagogue and had heard a
eulogy on the President. That his sister had recently been operated on, and that
she has been hysterical. That when he saw that Mrs. Kennedy was going to have to
appear for the trial, he thought to himself, why should she have to go through
this ordeal for this no-good so-and-so.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he use any words or did he say "no-good so-and-so"?
Mr. SORRELS. He used the word "son-of-a-bitch," as I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. S0RRELS. That he had heard about the letter to little Caroline, as I recall
he mentioned. That he had been to the Western Union office to send a telegram,
and that he guessed he had worked himself into a state of insanity to where he
had to do it. And to use his words after that, "I guess I just had to show the
world that a Jew has guts."
I, of course, asked him when he was born. He told me in Chicago, March 25, 1911.
That he operated the Carousel Club. And also a Vegas Club.
I asked him if anyone else was involved in this thing besides him, and he said
that there was not.
I asked him if he knew Oswald before this thing happened, and he said he did
not. He said that he had been a labor organizer years ago.
I asked him if he had ever been convicted of any offense or done any time, and
he said no felony, that he had a JP release in 1954---in other words, he had
been arrested but released by the JP in 1954.
I asked him what his father's name was, and he said his name was Joseph
Rubenstein.
I asked him where his father was born, and he said Russia.
I asked him if his mother was living, and he said no, that she was deceased, and
that she was born in Poland. That he was of the Jewish faith.
I asked him if he had an attorney, and he said he had Stanley Kaufman, a civil
attorney, as his attorney. And I recall, I believe that is about--that about
terminated the conversation at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you not ask him why he had the gun with him?
Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes; I did.
I asked him why he had that gun, and he said that he carried a gun because of
the fact that he carried large quantities of money from his business, or from
the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether he made any comment to you or in your hearing
regarding the way he got into the basement area where he shot Oswald?
Mr. SORRELS. At that time, I do not. I do not recall asking him how he got in. I
made no notes to that effect.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember him saying then anything about that he had intended
to shoot Oswald and had formed that intent as early as Friday?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. He did not comment at all about his intent?
Mr. SORRELS. No; nothing except his response to my question as to "Jack, why?",
and then his relating as I have told you there a moment ago. In other words,
after I got----
Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention anything about he intended to shoot him three times?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I did not hear that statement.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the only comments that you heard him state which
bear upon intent are those you have already made--that is to say, somebody had
to do it, and also that he wanted to show the world that a Jew had guts?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I did not hear him say that somebody had to do it. I heard him
say that he guessed he had worked himself into a state of insanity to where he
had to do it, felt he had to do it.
Mr. HUBERT. But he did make the report saying he felt he had to show the world
that a Jew had guts?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; that was very plain.
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Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you left, who left with you?
Mr. SORRELS. As I recall, I went by myself, because when I got the information
about his background, as I related here, and got his correct name and the
information that he was operating alone on this thing, that no one else was
involved with him, and he did not know Oswald, I then left in order to telephone
that information to my headquarters in Washington.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you state positively, therefore, to us that when you left Dean
was in the room?
Mr. SORRELS. I think he must have been, because, as I recall it, I went down on
the elevator by myself with the elevator operator.
Mr. HUBERT. And Dean was in the room at all times you were talking to him?
Mr. SORRELS. As far as I know.
Mr. HUBERT. He did not leave with you?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. HUBERT. The two other officers who were in uniform I think you said, who
were in the room at first, they were there all the time too?
Mr. SORRELS. As far as I know; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. They did not leave when you left?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And if anybody else came in afterwards, they did not leave when you
left?
Mr. SORRELS. Not that I recall.
As I recall it, I think I went down alone, just the elevator operator and
myself. Of course he had my sidearm. I had to get my sidearm from him. If there
was anyone else there, I didn't know.
Mr. HUBERT. You had to get your sidearm----
Mr. SORRELS. From the elevator operator.
In other words, you are not permitted to carry a gun inside the jail.
Mr. HUBERT. You saw him again later that day?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what time, under what circumstances, where, who was
present, and so forth?
Mr. SORRELS. I do not remember just exactly the time, but it was some time after
that when Jack Ruby was brought to Captain Fritz' office, and Captain Fritz
questioned him. I was present at that time and heard Captain Fritz interrogate
him and made some notes and wrote them up. And I also at that time asked him a
few questions myself, on some points I wanted to clarify.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you there from the beginning of the interview between Ruby and
Fritz, or did you arrive when it was already going on?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I was there at the beginning, because I heard Captain Fritz
tell him of course he did not have to make a statement and so on and so forth,
and Ruby said, "Well, I will answer your questions, but some of them I may not
want to answer, and I will tell you so."
Mr. HUBERT. Were you introduced to him?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I had talked to him up in the jail there.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you present during the entire interview?
Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, I was, on that one interview.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us who else was present?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I do not recall who else was there.
As I recall, there was other officers there in the room with Captain Fritz, but
I do not recall who.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say you had made notes as Captain Fritz was interrogating
him. Do you have those notes?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; I have the notes here.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have notes also of the first interview?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. I read some of the stuff awhile ago from those notes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there any reason of security or otherwise why we could not get
photostats of them for the record?
Mr. SORRELS. Not that I know of.
They may not mean much to anyone else, because it is just something jotted down
to refresh my memory. They are not in very good order, or anything like that.
And I don't know whether it would mean too much to anyone else.
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As far as I know----
Mr. HUBERT. You have no objections?
Mr. SORRELS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I take it those notes were made contemporaneously with the
interviews, as they went on?
Mr. SORRELS. The ones of Ruby were; yes.
Now, there is other stuff in here that had nothing to do with that.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, we are interested of course only in the Ruby ones. But you
testified a little while ago, and you seemed to be referring to notes, about
what Ruby said, and what happened and so forth in the first interview, and then
also in the second interview.
The notes that you referred to on both occasions were made contemporaneously
with the interview. That is, they were not made at a later date?
Mr. SORRELS. That is correct.
Now, there is other stuff in this notebook. Like I went up to the identification
bureau to check on his record and so forth, and got his detailed description,
and his fingerprint classification--that had nothing to do with the interview.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we ought to take that to show what the practice was.
Mr. HUBERT. If you do not mind, we will have them photostated, and after we get
the photostats, we will get them an identification number.
Suppose you tell us, then, what occurred at the second interview?
Mr. SORRELS. Continuing with what I started out with a moment ago there, he
incidentally, I have noted here on this page where I made these notations "3:15
p.m.," I assume that is possibly the time this interrogation took place. I do
have the date, "11-24- 63."
Mr. HUBERT. The beginning of the notes relating to the interview in Captain
Fritz' office?
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. It is your testimony now it would be your custom, as I understand
it, to put the time at the beginning of the notes.
Mr. SORRELS. Ordinarily we do. In this other one, I did not put the time.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. SORRELS. He gave his name as Jack Leon Ruby. He was asked about who his
attorneys were, and he said that he was going to get Tom Howard and possibly
Fred Brunner, and Stanley Kaufman, a civil attorney, and Jim Arnton.
In other words, he was going to consider those and C. A. Droby.
He said that his name was changed in Dallas.
Now, I might put in here as an explanation that these are in response to
questions that Captain Fritz was asking him. That he had this gun for 2 or 3
years. That George Senator was a roommate. That he came in the basement--the
word "basement" is not shown here he came in off Main Street, off of the ramp.
That he felt that Oswald was a Red, and that he was alone on this assassination.
That he saw Oswald in the showup room, or a similar room. That he knew who he
was going for. That he did not want to be a martyr. That he had built up--was a
buildup of grievance. That he had closed both clubs.
And I have the notation here "Vegas, Oaklawn, 3508, Carousel, 1312 1/2
Commerce." That he never saw the man before this thing took place, referring to
the time that he was down at the police station, or city hall, rather. That he
had been in the mail-order business. That he had been a labor organizer. That he
was fond of the police department.
And when Police Officer Slick had been killed--that is all I have in the notes,
but he said that he grieved about that.
That he had been around Saturday night, that people were laughing, no one was in
mourning. That he had seen a eulogy on TV. That he saw the President's brother,
Bobby, on TV. That he guessed that there was created a moment of insanity. That
he read about the letter that someone sent to little Caroline. That he knows the
police department is wonderful. That his heart was with the police department.
That he had hoped that if ever there was an opportunity--that he had hoped there
was an opportunity for him to participate in a police battle, and he could be a
part of it, meaning on the side the police.
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That his mother and dad were separated for 25 years. That he owes Uncle Sam a
big piece of money. That he has love for the city of Dallas--for the city--he
did not say Dallas. That his sister was operated on recently, she was hysterical
about the President. That he went to the synagogue Friday night, heard a eulogy.
And he had been grieving from that time on. That he went over to where the
President was shot.
He wanted Captain Fritz to not hate him for what he had done. That when he was
with the union, that one of his dear friends was killed, he came to the place
where it happened. Leon Cook was the man. That Ruby's mother told him to leave.
That he was in the union Scrap Iron and Junk Dealers Association. That a man by
the name of Jim Martin killed Cook. That Martin was political and had
affiliations and got out of it.
That his roommate sold postcards. That his politics were Democratic, but he
voted for the man.
That Sammy Ruby, a brother, who services washaterias. Another brother, Earl
Ruby, in Detroit, who operated a cleaning plant. Another brother, Hyman
Rubenstein, in Chicago, a salesman.
That he had also sold twist boards. That he would not think of committing a
felony. That Tom O'Grady, a Catholic, formerly with the police department, had
called him, that he had called Sims, who is one of the members of the police
department, and wanted to bring sandwiches for them, because he knew they were
having a tough time, and that Sims said that it wasn't needed.
That he tried to locate--anyway, it was some of the TV people to give them to.
And that is when he went to the showup room. And that is the first time that he
had even seen anyone like that, referring to Oswald.
That he had seen Henry, meaning Henry Wade, the district attorney, talking to
someone. That KLIF, the radio station there, had been good to him. No one else
was involved.
That is my notes--"no one else involved"--meaning there was no one else involved
with him, Ruby, in connection with the shooting.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, was this a sort of monologue on his part, or response to
questions?
Mr. SORRELS. No; as I said a moment ago, that was in response to questions.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, thus far have you covered only the part of the interview which
was conducted by Fritz, or was some of that the result of your questioning?
Mr. SORRELS. About the only thing that I recall questioning him about was
possibly the correct address on the night club.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if anyone asked him how he got in? I think perhaps you
have testified to that already.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, Captain Fritz asked him that.
Mr. HUBERT. And he said he came in through the ramp, I believe you said.
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he state at any time during that interview about any intent to
kill Oswald, to shoot him three times, and he is glad he was dead?
Mr. SORRELS. I do not recall that.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am going to show you a document which is actually a
photostatic copy, or Xerox copy, of Commission Document 354, consisting of four
pages. I am going to mark that document for identification as follows, to wit,
"Deposition of Forrest Sorrels, Washington, D.C., May 6, 1964," and I am signing
my name to that, all of which is on the right margin of the first page. I am
placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner of the second, third, and
fourth pages. I ask you if you can identify this document, or rather, the
photostatic copy? Would you state what it is?
Mr. SORRELS. This is a photocopy of a memorandum report titled "Assassination of
President Kennedy," the second line of that caption, "Jack Leon Ruby--slayer of
Lee Harvey Oswald, charged with murder of President Kennedy." Submitted by me,
Forrest V. Sorrels, on February 3, 1964. And it consists of three full pages and
a portion of--about a fifth of the fourth page.
Mr. HUBERT. I think your signature, or, rather, a photostatic copy of your
signature is on the front.
Mr. SORRELS. That is correct--on the front.
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Mr. HUBERT. That is the report that you submitted to your superiors?
Mr. SORRELS. In Washington.
Mr. HUBERT. Which ultimately, of course, they sent. The report covers the events
of November 24, is that right?
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why it was filed on February 3?
Mr. SORRELS. Why it was written on February 3? I was instructed by Inspector
Kelley to write up a memorandum on the interview that I had with Jack Ruby,
shortly after Oswald was shot by Ruby, and also the interview that was had with
Captain Fritz and Ruby at which I was present on the same date.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive those instructions?
Mr. SORRELS. I cannot say exactly when I received them--probably within a day or
two, or it could have been longer, because due to the press of other work and
things arising out of the assassination, and its duties, the other duties, it
was not written as soon as it should have been. And I may have been instructed
some time before that to--as quick as I could to get the memorandum prepared.
Mr. HUBERT. What I mean is that normally you would write such a report as this
in any case?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, that is true.
Mr. HUBERT. And normally it would be written sooner----
Mr. SORRELS. Sooner, that is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Than 2 months or so afterwards?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. That is what I am asking--if you can tell us what was the cause of
the delay.
Mr. SORRELS. Well, it is just the fact that we were burdened with all the
additional work and things brought about by this assassination and investigation
and so forth. I guess you could term it, possibly, negligence on my part for not
just taking time off and doing it. That is about the only explanation I can give
for that. It was not any willful intent to not write it or anything to that
effect.
Mr. HUBERT. There is no suggestion as to that.
Mr. SORRELS. I know. But that is just as a matter of explanation.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it was written on that date because Mr. Kelley told you
shortly before that date, to wit, February 3, that you should write it, or is it
your impression that Mr. Kelley had told you long before it was written to write
it?
Mr. SORRELS. There is a possibility that he may have told me before. I don't
recall it specifically. But I do know that Inspector Kelley had instructed me to
write up the report.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall having a conversation with Mr. Burt Griffin, the
gentleman who is in the office now, concerning what you knew about what Ruby had
said in your interviews with him?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; I do. And that refreshed my memory a bit, because I recall
that Inspector Kelley, after I had talked to Mr. Griffin on the
telephone--Inspector Kelley told me to get it written up, get it in writing,
about the interview, and get it in. I remember that now, since you mention it.
Mr. HUBERT. So that actually the report was written because Inspector Kelley
instructed you to do so, and as you recall it he did so because of the
conversation with Mr. Griffin?
Mr. SORRELS. I would surmise that, because, as I recall it now, either right
after I got through talking to Mr. Griffin or shortly thereafter, Mr. Kelley did
instruct me to get the interview, as I recall it, in a report, and get it in to
him.
Mr. HUBERT. But normally I think you said this report would have been written
anyhow, without any suggestion by Mr. Kelley or anybody else?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; that is right.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was your intent to write it, you say, but you didn't get
around to it?
Mr. SORRELS. That is about the best explanation I know to make on it.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you recall a conversation with Chief Curry with respect to
what you knew that Ruby had said?
Perhaps I can identify the conversation a bit more by saying to you that it
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had to do with a suggestion by you as to what the witnesses who were members of
the police department might be called in the prosecution.
Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes; I remember that.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us, first of all, when it was?
Mr. SORRELS. As I recall, it was after the trial of Ruby had started, or along
about the time it was beginning to start. I contacted Chief Curry and told
him----
Mr. HUBERT. Is this by phone, or was it by personal interview?
Mr. SORRELS. No; as I recall it was by phone that there were two uniformed
police officers that were present when I talked to Ruby on the fifth floor of
the city jail on the morning of November 24, and that I had not warned Ruby of
his constitutional rights and did not know whether or not the statement that he
had made to me would be admissible in a trial in the event that the district
attorney wanted to use it.
But----
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been at that time consulted by the district attorney with
reference to your being a possible witness?
Mr. SORRELS. I do not recall that I had.
Now, here is something that will establish that. The district attorney, Henry
Wade, came to Washington--I don't know whether it was in connection with talking
to the Commission or what--but I saw him out at the airport, and he said to
me----
Mr. HUBERT. What airport?
Mr. SORRELS. This was before the trial--Love Field, in Dallas.
He was Coming to Washington. And he said to me, "I want to talk to you when I
get back about this case."
And I said, "All right."
And I did not hear anything more from Mr. Wade until the trial was actually in
progress. He asked me to come to his office, which I did.
Mr. HUBERT. That is Wade?
Mr. SORRELS. That is Henry Wade; yes, sir, the State district attorney that
prosecuted Ruby for the murder of Oswald.
And, at that time, I related to him the conversation I had had with Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you relate to him in that interview approximately what you have
told us today about your interviews with Ruby?
Mr. SORRELS. Only the one up in the jail--I was talking about that. I didn't go
into detail about this one where Captain Fritz was interviewing him. That was
only there at the jail.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there any reason why one was talked about and not the other?
Mr. SORRELS. No; no particular reason, excepting that I just assumed that
Captain Fritz would be the one if there was any testimony as to the second
interview--would be the one to testify in that case.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Wade know that you were present at both?
Mr. SORRELS. I would not say positive, but it seems to me that it was mentioned
that I was present when we talked, but I am not positive on that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did this interview with Wade occur before or after the telephone
conversation with Curry?
Mr. SORRELS. No; that was afterwards. That was after the trial started.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, which was afterwards?
Mr. SORRELS. The interview with Mr. Wade.
Mr. HUBERT. That came after the telephone conversation with Curry?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Wade consider using you as a witness?
Mr. SORRELS. He said if he needed me, he would let me know--in other words,
would get in touch with me.
He said, "Now, the defense may subpoena you on this thing."
And defense attorney--one of them was in on that case--did call me on the
telephone. They wanted me to meet with either Tonahill or Belli, or maybe both
of them. And I told them I was extremely busy.
He said, "How about having dinner with us?"
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I said, "No; I don't even have time to eat big dinners, I just grab a sandwich,"
because I didn't want to have dinner with them.
They called me a second time, because there had been a delay from the time they
thought they were going to call me--they called me the second time and that is
when they said something about having dinner with them later, and I said, no; I
didn't have time.
And at that time I told them I didn't think I could do them any good. I said I
can tell you in a short time what I could testify to.
He said, "Over the phone?"
I said, "Yes."
So I told them about the interview with Ruby in the jail up in the jailhouse. I
did not go into detail about the other, because I did not consider that my
interview.
Mr. HUBERT. You are talking there about the second interview?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention you had been present?
Mr. SORRELS. I do not recall that I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to the Curry matter, what was your motivation in calling
Curry?
Mr. SORELLS. I felt that the testimony or the statements, rather, made by Ruby
right after he had shot Oswald would be of benefit to the district attorney in
the prosecution of this case, the statements that he made as to the fact that he
had worked himself into a state of insanity, also the statement that he guessed
he had to show the world that a Jew had guts. And I also recall that during the
questioning by Captain Fritz during the interview there that Ruby had made the
remark, "Well, I would make a good actor, wouldn't I?" to Captain Fritz. And I
felt that possibly I could not testify, because of the fact that I had not
warned Ruby of his constitutional rights.
I thought of that before I talked to him, but the part that I was interested in,
that is, determining whether or not anyone else was involved with him, or
whether or not he knew Oswald, I didn't consider--I mean I considered that if I
warned him of his constitutional rights on that particular angle, that he might
not even tell me that, and that is the reason I did not warn him of his
constitutional rights, because I felt it was of paramount interest to our
Service to determine whether or not others were involved in this thing besides
Ruby, and of paramount interest to determine whether or not Oswald and Ruby knew
each other, or had any connection.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it a custom, rule, or regulation of your Service that you must
warn a person of his constitutional rights before you can question him?
Mr. SORRELS. On our investigations; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And is that a custom, or is it actually a published regulation?
Mr. SORRELS. Well, we know that we are going to get in serious trouble in court
if we don't do it, because that is always--the question is always asked,
especially by a defense attorney, and so forth. And we know that we are supposed
to do it. I try to adhere to it as much as I possibly can.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to determine is whether that is your only
personal----
Mr. SORRELS. Oh, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Way of doing things, or if it is an established policy of the
Service, and if so, how is it established?
Mr. SORRELS. I think it is possibly a bit of both, because it is always my
practice to tell these people that we cannot promise them anything--I am talking
about the people we handle for prosecution in our investigations. And that, of
course, they don't have to tell us anything if they don't want to. We make that
known--because if we do not we know if there is a trial in a case, that that
question is going to be asked, and we know that under our laws that a person is
supposed to be warned of his constitutional rights before he is questioned.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that your version of what the law is?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to the policy matter, I don't expect you to be able
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to quote it to me now, but you have the impression there is something in writing
in some manual of standard operations, instructions, that requires that you warn
a person of his constitutional rights?
Mr. SORRELS. I just cannot answer that question, because I just can't recall if
there is a specific instruction of that particular thing or not.
But I do know that if we do not warn them of their constitutional rights, that
we are--we will be in serious trouble in the trial of a case because if the
question is asked, "Did you warn this man of his constitutional rights?" we have
to tell the truth, and if we say "No, it wasn't," we would be jeopardizing our
case.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the time you called Curry, you had not spoken to Wade?
Mr. SORRELS. Not about the actual interview with Ruby at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. At the time you talked to Curry, was that before or after you saw
Wade at Love Field?
Mr. SORRELS. I can't say for sure, but I think it was probably afterwards.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is what motivated your call to him.
Mr. SORRELS. I probably didn't make myself plain.
What motivated my call to him was that I figured that if I was called to Mr.
Wade's office to explain this thing to him, that the fact that I had not warned
Ruby when I approached him to get this information--that I had not warned him of
his constitutional rights, that I would not--it would not be good testimony. And
my thought is that the two men who were the two uniformed officers there, who
were just standing by and had nothing to do with the questions and so forth, who
heard what was said, they might be able to testify to that effect.
Mr. HUBERT. So you wanted to get that information to someone in authority?
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. And the information was twofold--that you knew there was someone who
could testify as to what Ruby had said, because you had heard Ruby say it in the
presence of other people?
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. And, secondly, you were doubtful as to whether your testimony as
such would be valuable?
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why you conveyed that information to Curry instead of
Wade?
Mr. SORRELS. Because I did not know the names of the two police officers that
were there. Two uniformed men.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, was it your thought, then, if you advised Curry he would get
the names of the men, and then convey it to Wade? I am trying to get what your
motivation was.
Mr. SORRELS. Well, that is all I can recall as to the motivation. In other
words, I don't know that I thought that he would convey the information to Wade
or not. I just cannot recall whether I had that in mind or not. But I did have
in mind that possibly these two fellows, these two uniformed police officers,
might be able to testify as to what Ruby said there when I would not be able to
do so, because of the fact I had not warned him.
Mr. HUBERT. And this conversation with Curry was in between the time you saw
Wade at Love Field and the time you had the interview with him when he came back
from Washington?
Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, it was. I won't be positive about that.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you told Wade, I think you said, the same thing, about your
doubts as to your qualifications.
Mr. SORRELS. I believe that I did, if I recall it correctly, because I think
when I was talking to Wade in his office, that that was mentioned.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make any memo of the conversation you had with Curry?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make any memo of the interview you had with Wade?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What did Curry say to you when you told him this information?
Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, I think he said that he could possibly find out. It
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seemed to me like I talked to Chief Batchelor about that, also. I am not
positive. But, anyway, I figured they would have a way of knowing who it was
that was there, and so forth, at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there anyway you could fix for us more definitely the dates of
these three occurrences--your meeting with Wade at Love Field, your telephone
conversation with Curry, and your interview with Wade?
Mr. SORRELS. I think that I can on the one at Love Field, because, as I recall
it, Miss Lynda Johnson was en route to Washington, D.C., and I went to Love
Field to be there at the time they arrived in the event that they might need a
car or something. I can establish that--February 16, 1964.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you don't know it now, but you could establish it?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I could establish it.
Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if you would undertake to establish that for us.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; I would.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you think there is no other collateral way to establish the
dates of the other matters?
Mr. SORRELS. I can--I think I can pretty well establish it. I will tell you why.
At the time that I was in Wade's office, and during the course of the time that
I talked to him, this officer Dean came into Mr. Wade's office and Mr. Wade
asked me about if I was present when Ruby said such and such things--I don't
recall what it was now--I think about that he had been thinking for 2 or 3 days
about killing this fellow, or words to that effect, and I told him I was not.
And it was right after that that Dean testified in that case. And I think I can
establish about pretty close to what day it was. He either testified that day or
the following day, as I recall it.
Mr. HUBERT. What interval of time would have elapsed between your meeting Wade
at the airport and the date of the interview?
Mr. SORRELS. Oh, I think that would have been probably--it is just hard to
estimate the time, but it was before the trial of Ruby had ever even begun. It
would just be a guess on my part, but I would say it was probably maybe 2 or 3
weeks, or maybe even more.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, can you fix for us--put it this way: Can you fix for us
whether the Curry conversation was closer to the time you met Wade at Love Field
than it was to the time you interviewed Wade, or Wade interviewed you?
Mr. SORRELS. I just don't believe I can. It seems to me like it was shortly
after I had seen Mr. Wade. I may be wrong about that. But I know the thought
occurred to me, well, if I am going to be called down on that thing, I don't
think they are going to be able to accept my testimony, because of the fact that
Ruby wasn't warned. And so it was that time that I thought about maybe getting
the names of these other two officers who could possibly remember the
conversation, and they were standbys and were not the ones actually in the
questioning.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember telling Mr. Griffin here that you would call the
Dallas Police Department--I think that was in a telephone conversation he had
with you--to find out the names of the people?
Mr. SORRELS. It seems that I did mention to Mr. Griffin, when he was talking to
me on the phone, that there were others present, and that I could possibly find
out their names, and it seems to me that Mr. Griffin said something about,
"Well, no; don't do that," or "It is not necessary."
Mr. HUBERT. Well, let me ask you this: Would that have been before you called
Curry, or afterwards?
Mr. SORRELS. Let me see now. I think that would have been before.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, perhaps it is this. Perhaps it was that when you had a
personal conversation with Mr. Griffin in Dallas that you told him that you had
made a call to ascertain the names of these people.
Mr. SORRELS. It could have been.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make such a call?
Mr. SORRELS. Did I?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SORRELS. I made a call. I am not sure it was to Chief Curry. It seems to me
I remember talking to Chief Batchelor on that. Now, I may have mentioned
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it to Chief Curry, too. But it seems to me like I remember talking to Chief
Batchelor.
Mr. HUBERT. About the existence of some officers?
Mr. SORRELS. To find out who the uniformed officers were who were there.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, would that conversation with Chief Batchelor be before
the Curry conversation or afterwards?
Mr. SORRELS. I don't recall that I made that conversation to both of them or
not. Now, I am just not positive about that. But I do recall having made that
call for the specific purpose of getting somebody that was there, those two
uniformed officers, that could have heard that conversation, that could have
testified in the case down there.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible that that aspect of the matter was part of the call
to Curry?
Mr. SORRELS. I just don't remember--I just don't remember. But I know that I did
talk to either Curry or Chief Batchelor, and I am inclined to think it was Chief
Batchelor. Now, when you mentioned awhile ago about the call to Curry, I, of
course, said "yes" on that, because I was thinking about the call. But since
thinking about it, I am not sure that it was Chief Curry that I talked to at all
about that particular angle. But I do know that I talked to Chief Batchelor
about it. I know that.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, let's see if we can clarify it. There is no doubt about it
that there was one telephone call made to a high police official.
Mr. SORRELS. That is what I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. You are definite that one call was made to Batchelor.
Mr. SORRELS. If my memory serves me right, it seems that I did talk to Batchelor.
Now, whether I talked to Chief Curry on that particular thing or not, I am not
too positive.
Mr. HUBERT. So that the matter stands that you are not certain that there was
the second telephone call with Curry at all?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I don't----
Mr. HUBERT. Well, would you have covered with Batchelor the material that we
have talked about that you say you did cover with Curry?
Mr. SORRELS. Now, what material is that?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, such as that you were doubtful about your ability to testify,
and so forth.
Mr. SORRELS. Not necessarily. In other words, if it was Batchelor that I called,
then I would have, I think, have explained it to him. If it had been Curry I
called, I would explain it to him--as to why I was wanting these names, or given
that information to them.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at, you see, is whether or not there were
two calls.
Mr. SORRELS. I don't recall that there were two calls. I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. And you are positive you spoke to Batchelor?
Mr. SORRELS. It seems that I remember talking to Chief Batchelor about it,
because it seems that I can remember that he said, "I am sure that we can find
out that information," or words to that effect.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, if there was only one call--that is to say, if you are
doubtful about two, and you do remember definitely Batchelor, then the one call
would have to be Batchelor, would it not?
Mr. SORRELS. That is correct; yes.
Mr. SMITH. I think there is a lack of meeting of the minds here.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you try to help me out? I would appreciate it.
Mr. SMITH. Let me see if I can clarify this. Was there definitely a conversation
with Curry about whether you would be able to testify because of your failure to
warn Ruby of his constitutional rights?
Mr. SORRELS. I just cannot say positively that there was. I do know that I made
a phone call for the specific purpose of informing them of the fact that these
two uniformed police officers were there and could have heard the conversation
that I had with Ruby, and as my memory serves me it seems that was Chief
Batchelor. Now, I may have had conversations with Chief Curry. We have talked
about this thing from many, many different angles from time to time.
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Mr. SMITH. Let me ask it a different way.
Was there one call to obtain the names of the men, uniformed policemen, who were
in the room when you interrogated Ruby, and a second call concerning the
question of whether you could testify, or were these two subjects covered in one
telephone conversation?
Mr. SORRELS. No; as I recall it, there was only one conversation on it at that
time.
Mr. SMITH. All right. And you don't know, then, for sure, whether it was to
Chief Batchelor or to Chief Curry?
Mr. SORRELS. I would say that, if my memory serves me right, it seems to me like
it was Chief Batchelor. There were many, many conversations about this case from
many angles. But I know I was concerned when Henry Wade indicated I was going to
be called as a witness down there, because I felt that they should know that,
and I think as I recall it when he talked to me I told him about those two
uniformed officers being there.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, whoever you talked to, did that person, whether it was Curry
or Batchelor, indicate that he was not aware of the information you were giving
him?
Mr. SORRELS. Now, what information?
Mr. HUBERT. About the statements made by Ruby. And that you had been present.
Mr. SORRELS. No; I don't think so.
Mr. HUBERT. You have already adverted to the telephone call that you had from
Mr. Griffin.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make the telephone call to Curry or Batchelor as a result of
the conversation you had with Mr. Griffin?
Mr. SORRELS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That was independent? You think it was before?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I don't think it was before, because as I recall it, this
conversation with Mr. Griffin was quite some time before.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Sorrels, I call your attention to the fact that on the exhibit
which has been identified as Commission Document 354, as to which you have
already testified, there is no mention of the names of the officers who were
present, and that is dated February 3, 1964. Does that help you to recollect
whether you then got interested in who those people were and called Batchelor or
Curry, or both?
Mr. SORRELS. It probably brought it to my mind that there were other people
present there, and I think I so informed Mr. Griffin on the telephone. But that
is not what prompted me to make the call about the two uniformed officers,
because that had no bearing on what I told Mr. Griffin. What he was asking me
over the telephone is what I had heard Ruby say. And I told him what I had heard
Ruby say. And he had asked me about certain things that I did not recall hearing
Ruby say, and I told him so at the time. And when I was in District Attorney
Wade's office, the question was asked of me by Mr. Wade as to whether or not
certain statements alleged to have been made by Ruby were made to Officer Dean
in my presence, and I told him I did not hear anything like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, perhaps another approach would be this: You were interested or
became interested sometime in finding out the names of these people. Isn't that
a fact?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; but only for that particular purpose.
Mr. HUBERT. And you also wanted to convey the information that you were doubtful
whether you would qualify, as you put it, as a witness, because you had failed
to warn. And that that thought came into your mind after Wade indicated that you
might be a witness.
Mr. SORRELS. That is as I recall it.
Mr. HUBERT. And that, therefore, you called someone. Now, were those two things
in the same conversation?
Mr. SORRELS. You mean about----
Mr. HUBERT. The inquiry as to the names, who these people were, and to
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convey the information that you were worried about your own qualifications if
you should be considered.
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. You think there were two conversations?
Mr. SORRELS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Just one?
Mr. SORRELS. As far as I know there would be one. Because that is the only
interest I had. As I recall it, I told Mr. Griffin over the telephone that there
were others present, and I could possibly find out who they were, and for that
purpose that he was trying to bring out on the telephone conversation, and as I
recall it he told me, "No; don't do that."
Mr. HUBERT. Did you find out who the two people were?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I could not tell you to this day who they are.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, whoever you spoke to, Batchelor or Curry, who said
they would let you know----
Mr. SORRELS. No; I don't think it was my purpose in finding out who they were
for my own benefit. That wasn't the point at all. It was my thought that they
should have information for the district attorney--period.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you were not interested in knowing who they were
yourself? You wanted them to know of the fact that there were two officers
there?
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. And that you were worried about your own qualifications?
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us approximately the lapse of time, if you can remember
it, between your conversation with Mr. Griffin and your conversation with either
Chief Batchelor or Chief Curry that you have been speaking of?
Mr. SORRELS. Well, I would say it was quite some time afterwards, because this
conversation--I don't remember the date I had it with Mr. Griffin, but it was
prior to the writing of this memorandum. And it was quite some time after that
that the trial ever started. And when Mr. Wade saw me at the airport and said,
"I want to see you and talk to you about this case," the trial, of course, had
not started at that time. So it was quite some time afterwards.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, what did Curry or Batchelor, whoever it was, tell you when you
told him of this?
Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, they said they could get the information. That is
all that I recall that they said.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when speaking to Wade at the interview whether you
adverted to the conversation you had had over the telephone with either
Batchelor or Wade, or possibly both?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I don't recall that that was mentioned.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any other conversation with any officers in the police
department? I mean about this aspect that we are talking about now?
Mr. SORRELS. I saw Captain Fritz at the district attorney's office the day that
I was down there and talked to him, and I cannot recall about whether or not
there was a conversation with him about who was present at that time or not,
because I remember discussing with Captain Fritz at that time that I didn't
think my testimony would be much benefit to the prosecution on that, or if it
would be admissible because of the fact I had not warned Ruby of his
constitutional rights.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that conversation?
Mr. SORRELS. That was the same time I was talking to Mr. Wade at his office.
This is when the trial of Ruby was actually in progress.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Fritz in the office?
Mr. SORRELS. He was in and out of there. He had walked in and walked out. And I
may have mentioned to him that--the fact that there was other officers there
besides Dean and myself. And I told Mr. Wade in Dean's presence that certain
things that Mr. Wade had asked me about, about Ruby saying that he had been--I
think somebody had been thinking 3 days about shooting this fellow--that I heard
no such statement, that I had left when I got the information I wanted. In other
words, when I was questioning Ruby, as I recall it, nobody was asking him any
questions except me, and when I got through I left.
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Mr. HUBERT. When did you find out that Dean and Archer had said or were going to
say that they heard Ruby say that he had intended to kill him 3 days before?
Mr. SORRELS. I don't know that Archer said that--I don't remember his name.
Mr. HUBERT. Dean--when did you learn that?
Mr. SORRELS. When Mr. Griffin asked me over the telephone if certain statements
were made, and I told him, in conversation with him, the statements that Ruby
had made to me, and he asked me if certain other statements were made, and I
said not to my knowledge, "I don't remember anything like that," and one of them
was about whether or not Ruby came down the ramp, and I told him at that time I
didn't recall that statement having been made, and I didn't believe that
statement was made in my presence.
Mr. HUBERT. I thought you said in the interview with Wade you told him you did
not hear Ruby say that he had formed the intent to kill Oswald on Friday.
Mr. SORRELS. No, no.
Mr. HUBERT, I am sorry.
Mr. SORRELS. No; I didn't hear that. Ruby didn't say that. I told Wade that.
Mr. HUBERT. You did tell Wade that? Did Wade ask you that?
Mr. SORRELS. He asked me if certain statements were made, and I told him no, not
in my presence.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you had not heard of that even until Wade brought it
to your attention?
Mr. SORRELS. No--not that part. The thing that Mr. Griffin was asking me, I
think, as I recall it, was about the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. Wade asked you did you hear Ruby say, "I intended to kill him since
Friday night," and your answer was "No; I didn't"
Mr. SORRELS. No; I didn't hear it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Griffin mention in the telephone conversation he had with
you statements allegedly made, or knowledge allegedly in the possession of Dean
in regard to what Ruby had said?
Mr. SORRELS. I remember specifically there was a statement about him coming down
the ramp. I remember that. And it seems that--I wouldn't be positive about that,
but it seemed like there was something else that Dean was supposed to have said
in my presence, and I told him no I didn't hear anything like that.
Mr. HUBERT. I had thought you said that you told Wade that you had not heard
Dean say any such thing. But he asked you?
Mr. SORRELS. He asked me. No--you see, he had talked to Dean beforehand, you
see, about this. And I never had talked to Dean. As a matter of fact, I had not
seen him.
Mr. SMITH. I might say it was my impression at one time that Mr. Sorrels said or
indicated that in his conversation with Mr. Griffin, this question about Ruby
having premeditated this for 3 days came out in this conversation with Griffin.
At least I got that impression. But do I understand it now to be clarified that
that particular point did not come out in your conversation with Griffin?
Mr. SORRELS. I don't think on the telephone conversation at that time.
Mr. SMITH. It came out in your conversation with----
Mr. SORRELS. With Wade.
Mr. SMITH. With Wade?
Mr. SORRELS. That is right. But I think--can this be off the record?
Mr. HUBERT. I would rather it go on.
Mr. SORRELS. All right. We will have it on the record. I have had other
conversations with Mr. Griffin subsequent to that time, and personally when he
was there at Dallas, in which I believe that there was some question about that
statement. But as I recall it now, the first conversation over the telephone was
specifically about the ramp incident. And I remember him emphasizing that. And I
recall if such a statement was said I don't remember it, and I just don't
believe it was said in my presence.
Mr. HUBERT. In regard to the conversation with Mr. Griffin in Dallas, do you
recall a conversation which I think I can specifically state would have been on
the morning of Wednesday, March 25--that is to say the morning after Dean had
been deposed. And let it be noted that Dean was deposed on the night of
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March 24. Do you remember a conversation with Mr. Griffin about what Dean had
said then, and that you then told Mr. Griffin what your version of it was, and
had in fact--he asked you to prepare a memorandum or something for him, so that
there would be a record of what he had told him?
Mr. SORRELS. Along about this same thing?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, about this same matter, revolving around Dean and Dean's
testimony about what Ruby had said.
Mr. SORRELS. I remember that there was a conversation. It seems like I do have a
recollection. It slipped my mind. But since you mention something about a
memo--and you left rather suddenly, Mr. Griffin, as I recall it, right after
that.
Mr. HUBERT. That is on the 27th? The question is--you have not written a memo?
Mr. SORRELS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any reason why?
Mr. SORRELS. No. As a matter of fact, it just slipped my mind, I guess, because
I cannot recall now just exactly what the memo was. But since he mentioned that,
it seems I do recall something about something I told him, and he said, "Write
me a memo about it."
Mr. HUBERT. Was Inspector Kelley present during your interrogation of Oswald on
Sunday morning for about 15 or 20 minutes, I think you said?
Mr. SORRELS. I don't believe so. He might have been. But I don't recall that he
was there.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have already testified that you and Mr. Kelley went to Mr.
Batchelor's office after Oswald left on Sunday morning.
Mr. SORRELS. It is my recollection that we did go there together.
Mr. HUBERT. Was anybody else there?
Mr. SORRELS. If we didn't, I met him up there.
Mr. HUBERT. Was anybody else there?
Mr. SORRELS. At the interview?
Mr. HUBERT. No, when you left, when Oswald left to go down to the basement, you
testified that you went with somebody, I think it was Tom Kelley--went into
Batchelor's office and looked out to watch the scene.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I think that was Tom Kelley there. Was anyone else there?
Mr. SORRELS. There was a number of officers around there.
I don't recall who all was there. I just don't recall who all was there.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how many officers or detectives were in Fritz' office
after Ruby had shot Oswald and had been brought up to Fritz' office?
Mr. SORRELS. No, I don't. There was a number of them around there.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any recollection that Dean was taken to escort you up to
Captain Fritz' office?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, I remember Dean went up the elevator with me.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember any comment that Dean made in Wade's office?
Mr. SORRELS. The only comment that I can remember that he made is when Mr. Wade
asked me if certain things were said by Ruby when I was talking to him in the
jail on the morning of November 24, when Dean was there, and I told him no, that
that statement was not made in my presence, I did not recall any statement like
that. And Dean said, "Well, maybe it was after you left." And I said, "Well, if
it was--if the statement was made, it would have had to be after I left, because
I don't recall any statement like that."
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever find out how Wade or Curry or the police found out
about what Dean ultimately said?
Mr. SORRELS. Will you read that question again?
Mr. HUBERT. I said, did you ever find out how Wade and/or the police found out
themselves what Dean ultimately testified to?
Mr. SORRELS. No, I don't know anything about that--unless it is in the court
records down there in his testimony at the trial. Now, whether or not they had
talked to him before what his testimony would be, I could not say about that, I
don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Wade or anyone else ever ask you to identify the two uniformed
officers?
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Mr. SORRELS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever consult with any of your superior officers in your own
service in regard to Wade's request that you testify?
Mr. SORRELS. I told Inspector Kelley that I might get involved in this thing,
and he said, "Well, if you are subpenaed you will just have to testify what you
know about it."
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't make a written report?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Was FBI Agent Hall present during the Fritz' interview?
Mr. SORRELS. I couldn't say. I don't think I know Agent Hall if he walked in the
door. I don't recall ever having met him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear Ruby say, "You all won't believe this, but I
didn't have this planned, and I couldn't have done it better if I had planned
it," or something to that effect?
Mr. SORRELS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now----
Mr. SORRELS. I don't recall any statement like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Stern is going to take over, and I am going to ask him to
handle the identification of your notes.
(Mr. Hubert left. Mr. Stern requested Mr. Griffin to handle the identification
of documents.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state that for the limited purpose of having Agent Sorrels
identify three sets of documents I am going to ask a series of questions of
Agent Sorrels.
Mr. Sorrels, I want to hand you a Xerox copy of a document which is a part of
our files, and numbered Commission No. 354, and is your Secret Service serial
1,007, consisting of four pages, which you have previously identified, and Mr.
Hubert has marked "Deposition of Forrest Sorrels, Washington, D.C., May 6,
1964," and signed Leon D. Hubert.
I have added the additional designation "Exhibit 1," on the first page of this
four page exhibit. I want you to look at that and tell me if that is in fact the
same exhibit you identified previously as I have described it.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let me hand you what I have marked for the purpose of
identification as deposition of Forrest Sorrels, May 6, 1964, Washington, D.C.
This exhibit consists of four different pages which I have numbered
consecutively Exhibits 2-A, 2- B, 2-C, and 2-D, and purports to be a Xerox copy
of notes that you made of the interview that took place with Jack Ruby in
Captain Fritz' office at 3:15 on November 24, 1963.
Would you examine Exhibits 2-A, 2-B, 2-C, and 2-D and compare them with the
pages of your notebook which you have referred to previously in the deposition,
and tell us if that is a true and exact copy of all of the notes that you have
that pertain to the 3:15 interview with Jack Ruby?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, that is correct.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you what I have marked for the purpose of
identification deposition of Forrest Sorrels, May 6, 1964, Washington, D.C.,
which is a document consisting of three pages, which I have numbered
consecutively Exhibit 3-A, Exhibit 3-B, Exhibit 3-C. This exhibit purports to be
a Xerox copy of notes that you took at an interview with Jack Ruby in the fifth
floor jail cell shortly after Ruby shot Lee Oswald on November 24. I want you to
compare these exhibits to pages which you have testified to previously are in
your notebook, and tell me if Exhibits 3-A, 3-B, and 3-C are true and exact
copies of those pages which appear in your notebook?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, they are. But there is portions that do not pertain to the
interview with Ruby in the Dallas City Jail on the morning of November 24,
1963--but certain portions happen to be on the same page as the notes made at
that time were made.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, directing your attention to Exhibit 3-A, would you tell us if
that portion which pertains to Ruby--the Ruby interview in the jail cell, and
appears on that page, follows consecutively from some point on that page?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, from about the center of the page, below a wavy line drawn
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across it, continuing on the second page, marked Exhibit 3-B, and the third page
marked Exhibit 3-C, down to the lower portion ending with "deceased mother."
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, directing your attention to Exhibit 3-A, would you
read the first two lines on Exhibit 3-A that consist of the notes taken at your
interview with Ruby in the fifth floor jail cell?
Mr. SORRELS. "Chicago, 3-25-1911, Jack Ruby (Rubenstein), Entertainment,
Carousel Club. Had business closed for 3 days."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let me hand you again Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if that is a
true and accurate copy, to sign your name on the first page of that exhibit.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, it is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you sign your name, then, on the first page of the exhibit?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 2-A, B and C, and
D, and ask you if that is a true and accurate copy to sign your name on the
first page of Exhibit 2-A.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you, Mr. Sorrels, Exhibit 3-A, B, and C, and ask you
the same question with respect to that, and ask you to do the same thing.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let the record reflect that I am putting my initials, BWG, on
pages 2-A, 2-B, 2-C, and 2-D. Let the record reflect I have done the same thing
with pages 3-A, 3-B, and 3-C.
Mr. STERN. Mr. Smith, are there any questions you would like to ask Mr. Sorrels
at this stage of his deposition, to clarify any points on the record?
Mr. SMITH Yes, just with respect to one point.
Mr. STERN. Please go ahead.
Mr. SMITH. Mr. Sorrels, you testified that in your interview with Jack Ruby in
the jail, you did not warn him of his constitutional rights. Was this due to
oversight on your part?
Mr. SORRELS. No, it was not.
Mr. SMITH. Will you state, then, the reason why you did not do so?
Mr. SORRELS. My purpose in getting to Jack Ruby and talking to him as quickly as
I did was to determine whether or not he was involved with anyone else in
connection with the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald, and also to determine whether
or not Jack Ruby had any connection or association with Lee Harvey Oswald. I did
not warn him of his constitutional rights, because insofar as I was concerned at
this particular interview, my conversation with him was not--strike was not--had
no bearing insofar as the murder case against Jack Ruby was concerned.
My purpose was trying to obtain information for my service to determine whether
or not there were others involved in this case that would be of concern to the
Secret Service in connection with their protective duties of the President of
the United States and the Vice President.
Mr. STERN. Is there anything else, Mr. Smith, you would like to cover?
Mr. SMITH. No. Thank you.
Mr. STERN. Mr. Sorrels, you have had a lengthy session here today. If it is
convenient for you, I would prefer to carry on that part of it that I am
interested in tomorrow morning, rather than to try to finish late today. Would
that be convenient for you?
Mr. SORRELS. That is satisfactory for me, yes.
Mr. STERN. Fine. Why don't we suspend now and resume in the morning.
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