Virgie Ratchley Volume VII
Virgie
Ratchley
Volume VII-507
TESTIMONY
OF MRS. DONALD BAKER
The testimony of Mrs. Donald Baker was taken at 11:50 a.m., on July 22,
1964, in the office of the
Mr. LIEBELER. Before you sit down, will you raise your right hand and
please take the oath? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to
give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mrs. BAKER. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Baker, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney
on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of
President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the
Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated
November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Under the rules
of the Commission, you are entitled to have an attorney present and you are
entitled to 3 days' notice of the hearing. You don't have to answer any
questions that you think would violate any of your constitutional rights. I
presume from the nature of the testimony that we are going to ask you about that
you don't want your attorney present and that you are willing to proceed with
the testimony at this point; is that correct?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?
Mrs. BAKER. Mrs. Donald Baker.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been married since the 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. BAKER. February 1, 1963.
Mr. LIEBELER You were married on February 1, 1963?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you Virgie Rachley or is that somebody else?
Mrs. BAKER. That's me.
Mr. LIEBELER. How come I have your name as Virgie Rachley and also Mrs.
Donald S. Baker?
Mrs. BAKER. I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I have a report from the FBI that is dated November
24, 1963, and they refer to you as Virgie Rachley in that report, but you had
already been married at that time; is that correct?
Mrs. BAKER I married this year.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oh, February of 1964?
Mrs. BAKER. This is 1964 I'm sorry.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's right. Now, we've got it. You were Virgie Rachley on
November 24, 1963, and you were married in February 1964.
Mrs. BAKER. Yes; that's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you were employed at the time of the
assassination as a bookkeeper at the
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long had you worked there?
Mrs. BAKER. Well, I have been there since July 16, 1963.
Mr. LIEBELER. Last year?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever meet Lee Harvey Oswald or have occasion to see
him while you were employed at the
Mrs. BAKER. I had seen him.
Mr. LIEBELER. You had seen him?
Mrs. BAKER Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had you ever said anything to him or talked to him at all?
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression of him just from seeing him
around the building?
Mrs. BAKER. Just that he was awful quiet.
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Mr. LIEBELER. Other than that, did you form any impression of him at all?
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me what happened on the 22d of November in connection
with the motorcade, would you please, what you saw and what you did?
Mrs. BAKER Well, we came out of the building across the street at
approximately 12 or 12:15 and we stood out in front, directly in front of the
Depository Building and as the motorcade came by the President waved and he got
down ----
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you standing at this point, at the time the
motorcade came along?
Mrs. BAKER Well, there is a divisional line--I don't know exactly what
you would call it--the little part of the street that runs in front of the
Depository and then there is--I
don't know what you would call it--the grassy stuff that
comes out to form the plaza along the front.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say there is a little street that runs immediately in
front of the
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if that street has a name or not?
Mrs. BAKER. I'm sure it doesn't----I have never seen one.
Mr. LIEBELER. And then after that little street that runs right in front
of the
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And then comes
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And on the other side of
Mrs. BAKER. I guess you could say we were standing just at the edge of
Mr. LIEBELER. Elm Street is separated from another street that runs down
through the triple underpass. Do you know the name of that street that runs
right down here--I am showing you Commission Exhibit No. 354, an aerial view of
the street that runs by and three streets converge and go under the railroad
tracks and that's the triple underpass.
Mrs. BAKER. I think that goes out to Stemmons Expressway or leads into
Stemmons Expressway.
Mr. LIEBELER. The street that runs right down through here, the middle,
is that
Mrs. BAKER. That would be
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, can you point to me approximately where you were
standing?
Mrs. BAKER. Let me find the building here--it would be right here--we
were standing right at the edge, approximately directly in front of the building
or at the edge of the building; we were standing right here.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were standing directly in front of the
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me what you saw?
Mrs. BAKER. Well, after he passed us, then we heard a noise and I thought
it was firecrackers, because I saw a shot or something hit the pavement.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you heard that immediately after the first noise; is
that right?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell or did you have any idea where the noise
came from when you first heard it?
Mrs. BAKER. No; I thought there were some boys standing down there where
he was--where the President's car was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Down farther on the street, you mean?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes; close to the underpass.
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Mr. LIEBELER. Had the President's car already passed you at the time you
heard the first noise?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately how far down the street it
had gone when you heard the first shot?
Mrs. BAKER. I don't know exactly--I could still see the back of the
car--I can't judge distance so I really couldn't tell you.
Mr. LIEBELER. It hadn't gone out of sight in your opinion?
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could you still see the President?
Mrs. BAKER. Not too well.
Mr. LIEBELER. There is a gradual curve on
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say you saw something hit the street after you heard
the first shot; is that right?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you see it hit the street?
Mrs. BAKER. Have you got that---can you see the signs on that picture
there?
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you can't see the signs too well on that picture,
which is Commission Exhibit No. 354, but I will show you some other pictures
here on which the signs do appear. First of all, let me show you
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could you see
that sign?
Mrs. BAKER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Stemmons Freeway sign from where you were standing?
Mrs. BAKER. No; I couldn't see the sign because I was angled--we were
stepping out in the street then and it was approximately along in here, I
presume, the first sign--I don't know which one it is, but I saw the bullet hit
on down this way, I guess, right at the sign, angling out.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think the bullet hit the street, only it was farther
out in the street?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Even though you couldn't see the sign, you could see this
thing hit the street near the sign?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. It appears to me from looking at Commission Exhibit No.
354, that you can in fact make out where the signs are located along the side of
the road and let's see if these do look like the signs. Now, as you come down
Elm Street past the place you were standing going toward the triple underpass,
there is a tree here on this little grassy triangular spot that is on the side
of Elm Street toward the Texas School Book Depository Building, right on Dealey
Plaza here by this concrete structure. Then, after the tree, going on down
toward the triple underpass, it appears in the aerial photograph--a spot that
looks like a sign or a shadow--it looks like a sign to me.
Mrs. BAKER. There is a sign there.
Mr. LIEBELER. And then there's another sign farther on down there.
Mrs. BAKER. This was a big sign here and there was a small one here.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you think that it was
approximately near the first sign?
Mrs. BAKER. As I can remember, it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. As you went down
Mrs. BAKER. Well, as I said, I thought it was a firecracker. It looked
just like you could see the sparks from it and I just thought it was a
firecracker and I was thinking that there was somebody was fixing to get in a
lot of trouble and we thought the kids or whoever threw it were down below or
standing near the underpass or back up here by the sign.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would they have been as far down as the underpass or
somewhere near the sign to have thrown a firecracker in the street?
Mrs. BAKER. It was near the signs.
Mr. LIEBELER. How close to the curb on
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hit;
do you remember? It would have been on the curb side near the side away from the
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How close to the opposite curb do
you think it was?
Mrs. BAKER. It was approximately in the middle of the lane I couldn't be
quite sure, but I thought it was in the middle or somewhere along in there could
even be wrong about that but I could have sworn it that day.
Mr. LIEBELER. You thought it was sort of toward the middle of the lane?
Mrs. BAKER. Toward the middle of the lane.
Mr. LIEBELER. Of the left-hand lane going toward the underpass; is that
correct?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where was the thing that you saw
hit the street in relation to the President's car? I mean, was it in front of
the car, behind his car, by the side of his car or was it close to the car?
Mrs. BAKER. I thought it was--well--behind it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had the car already gone by when you saw this thing hit in
the street?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether it hit toward the left-hand side or
the right-hand side of the President's car, or was it just immediately it? If
you can't remember it that closely, all right.
Mrs. BAKER. I can't remember it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you actually see the President get hit by any bullets?
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots did you hear?
Mrs. BAKER. Three.
Mr. LIEBELER When did you first become aware that they were shots?
Mrs. BAKER. With the second shot.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any idea where they were coming from?
Mrs. BAKER. Well, the way it sounded--it sounded like it was coming
from-- there was a railroad track
that runs behind the building--there directly behind the building and around, so
I guess it would be by the underpass, the triple
underpass, and there is a railroad track that runs back out there and
there was a train that looked like a
circus train as well as I can remember now, back
there, and we all ran to the plaza--the little thing there I guess you
call it a plaza--back behind there
this other girl and I almost ran back over there
and looked and we didn't see anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you say the plaza, you mean
Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard the shots, you ran down the little street
that runs in front of the School Book Depository?
Mrs. BAKER. Along the grass.
Mr. LIEBELER. Along the grass--alongside there, running toward the triple
underpass where Elm Street goes, but you were actually running down the little
street or alongside the street on the grass, alongside the street that runs
right in front of the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you say there are some railroad
tracks back in there; is that right?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Immediately behind
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And is that where you thought the shots came from?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And when you went down there and looked, did you see
anybody at all?
Mrs. BAKER Just a policeman and several people were down there around the
tracks working.
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Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't see anybody you thought might have been the
assassin?
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you have subsequently heard,
I'm sure, and from reading in the newspapers and one thing and another, that it
appears that the shots actually came from the Texas School Book Depository
Building; is that right?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does that seem possible to you in view of what you heard at
the time?
Mrs. BAKER. Well, I guess it might have been the wind, but to me it
didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. The sounds you heard at the time did not appear to come
from the
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look up at the
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, you had no occasion to see anybody in any of the
windows in that building?
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. According to the FBI report of the
interview that you gave them on November 24, you said that just after the
shooting some man who had been sitting on a wall directly across the street from
you came up and said he saw everything; is that so?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever find out what that man's name was?
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir; I did not. I didn't see him after that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what he had seen?
Mrs. BAKER. No; I don't remember--he came over--I don't know when he came
over now, but he told us he had seen everything--it might have been later that
afternoon. I think it was--I think it was later that afternoon.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where he had been, where he could see all
this?
Mrs. BAKER. He said he was sitting on that wall.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, when you say "that wall" I show you again
Commission Exhibit No. 354.
Mrs. BAKER. This wall here [indicating].
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you referring to a wall that is on the triangular spot
formed by
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did this man tell you exactly where on the wall he had been
sitting?
Mrs. BAKER. No; I presume it was on this high wall here--it sticks up
real high--I presume he was up there on top.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have indicated the part of the wall that faces toward
the triple underpass down toward where
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, there has been some speculation that perhaps the shots
might have come from right off the triple overpass, from the railroad tracks
that go up over the top, were you able to see these railroad tracks at the time
from where you were standing down here--when I say, "Down here," I
mean the railroad tracks that actually go over Elm Street and Main Street and
Commerce.
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You could not see that?
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did the shots sound like they had come from that area, or
did they sound like they had come from the area more around toward the
Mrs. BAKER. It sounded like it was coming from along in here--it didn't
sound like it was too far off.
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Mr. LIEBELER. It didn't sound like it was coming, however, directly from
the railroad tracks that go over Elm,
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI report also indicates that after the second shot
you began to smell gunsmoke; is that correct?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell where it was coming from?
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Looking at Commission Exhibit No. 354, could you pick out
the place on Elm Street as the approximate place where you saw this object hit
the ground for us, and we will mark it with a pen or pencil. Let's first of all
mark the place where you were standing, Mrs. Baker, if we can.
Mrs. BAKER. Okay, after he had gone by, I got out into the street, I
guess, along in here in the middle of the lanes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that in the middle of the right-hand lane?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes; the right-hand lane.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, we will mark that as No. 1 and we will put a circle
around it and its right in front of the
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. On
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And I guess that this tree was along in here somewhere?
Mrs. BAKER. I couldn't be sure.
Mr. LIEBELER. There appear to be two trees, one on this side of
Mrs. BAKER. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. And across the street--across
Mrs. BAKER. There's not a tree there.
Mr. LIEBELER. There's not a tree there?
Mrs. BAKER. No, there's a sign there, I think.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's a sign.
Mrs. BAKER. I think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us by judging from the tree that's in the
corner of
Mrs. BAKER. Approximately right here---between the sign and the tree.
Mr. LIEBELER. Right here, would you say?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. We have indicated the approximate area where you think it
hit and we will indicate it by the No. 2, is that correct?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have marked this photograph, Baker Exhibit No. 1, and I
have placed my initials on it and would you put your initials on it just below
mine so that we can identify the picture for the purposes of our record?
Mrs. BAKER. [Complied with request of Mr. Liebeler.]
Mr. LIEBELER. Will you look at that picture and see if you can tell from
it where you were standing and if that helped you to place the spot where the
bullet hit?
Mrs. BAKER. It would be back in here behind this car.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been where you were standing or where the
bullet hit?
Mrs. BAKER. I really can't tell for the tree there and everything--but it
was right in here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, as we look at this picture this is Baker Exhibit No.
1, starting from the left front, there are---there is a car down there and there
is a Volkswagen panel truck in the picture and then there are two cars
immediately behind the Volkswagen and then there is a convertible
out--approximately in the middle of the street, isn't that right?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
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Mr. LIEBELER. And you think you might have been standing somewhere behind
the spot where that convertible is located in this picture; is that right?
Mrs. BAKER. Either there or right in here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Right in back around the second car behind the Volkswagen?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, this picture actually shows the little grassy area and
the trees that lie between
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you give me an estimate, looking at this picture, where
that thing might have hit the street?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. It may not be in this picture--I don't know that it is.
Mrs. BAKER. I just can't tell--I would say it was over in here somewhere
in this picture.
Mr. LIEBELER. Somewhere in about here?
Mrs. BAKER. It could have been further on up.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, we will mark the place "X", but you think
it might have been right along here or somewhere farther down. Now, is there a
concrete divider somewhere here on
Mrs. BAKER. Not until you pass the underpass.
Mr. LIEBELER. Not until you get down here towards the underpass and then
there are concrete dividers here between
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Back up here toward the intersection at
Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, you turn down from
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You saw this thing hit the street before you heard the
second shot; is that correct?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you absolutely sure of that?
Mrs. BAKER. I hope I am--I know I am.
Mr. LIEBELER. In marking the "X" on Baker Exhibit No. 1 that we
marked, we were assuming, were we not, that the "X" was fairly near
the first sign on the right-hand side of Elm Street going toward the triple
underpass after the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mrs. BAKER. I think that's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. I think that we will find that the "X" is--well,
it is very difficult to tell the exact spot from which Baker Exhibit No. 1 was
taken, but if in fact we are correct, if in fact it is taken from the side of
Main Street toward Commerce Street, then the "X" would not be in the
right place, would it, if this lamppost here that appears in the picture is
actually at the end of the grassy spot made by Main Street and Elm Street, then
the "X" that we have on Baker Exhibit No. 1 would be too far down
toward the Triple Underpass to be in the right place where you saw it hit, isn't
that right; do you follow me?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Because, if this is actually the end of this grassy spot,
if the lamppost is actually the end of the grassy spot here between Elm Street
and Main Street, this "X, is very close to the Triple Underpass.
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't see the bullet hit that far down the street,
did you?
Mrs. BAKER. No; not that far.
Mr. LIEBELER. It would have been much closer, up towards the
Mrs. BAKER. This right here are the steps--to the plaza.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's right, and as a point of fact, as we look at that
now, it becomes quite clear that it was taken from a spot much closer to the
triple
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underpass
than we had originally thought, because in the left-hand side of the picture you
can see the steps coming down from the plaza.
Mrs. BAKER. It must have been right here in this area because these were
the steps--I can't tell which sign is which, but I know there were four girls
standing near the sign and it must have been back up here because there must
have been another sign closer up.
Mr. LIEBELER. Looking at Hudson Exhibit No. 1, which was taken at the
time of the assassination, it shows Dealey Plaza here and there are some
steps that go down over here in the very background of the picture and they go
down onto the sidewalk and it runs along past Elm Street here.
Mrs. BAKER. This would be the first sign here.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Stemmons Freeway sign.
Mrs. BAKER. This one over here the steps are already here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; the steps are toward the background in
Mrs. BAKER. It was probably back over this way.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, so the "X" on Baker Exhibit No. 1 is
actually in the wrong place as far as these pictures here it is not correct--it
should be further back on up here.
Mrs. BAKER. Yes; definitely.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, we will put a "Y" back up here toward the
School Book Depository Building, and
actually if you look at Commission Exhibit No. 354, you can see the steps coming
right down to Elm Street.
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. At the end of Dealey Plaza toward the Triple Underpass, and
I think that those steps are the same steps we can see in the left front
foreground of Baker Exhibit No. 1.
Mrs. BAKER. That's the sign right in there that big sign there, and I
don't know--the sign would be here, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's right, and the sign that we see in the very left
front foreground of the picture would be the sign here that is toward the Triple
Underpass from the steps to go down to Dealey Plaza on the right-hand side of
Elm Street?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes; this is confusing.
Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you are quite clear in your mind that you saw
this thing hit before you heard the second shot?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, if what you saw hitting the street was, in fact, a
bullet, it would have been the first shot?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anything else around the area of the
Mrs. BAKER. I don't know, but before the parade ever got there, someone
passed out and I guess it would be to the left, coming down Elm Street over in
this plaza between Elm Street and Main, because an ambulance pulled up and
picked someone up-- we never could tell who. This was before the motorcade ever
got to
Mr. LIEBELER. About how long before the motorcade came did this ambulance
come and pick up this person?
Mrs. BAKER. I'll judge 5 minutes--about 5 minutes.
Mr. LIEBELER. The ambulance had already left the area about 5 minutes
before the Presidential motorcade came?
Mrs. BAKER Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What time did you come to work that morning; do you
remember?
Mrs. BAKER. Well, it could have been 6:30 or 7, because I rode with
daddy; my daddy works behind the Depository for the Katy Railroad and if he had
to be there at 6, then I got there at 6, but that morning, I couldn't tell you,
but whatever time daddy had to be at work, that's when I had to be there.
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Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Oswald on the morning of November 22 at any
time?
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Billy Lovelady?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 203, and I call your
attention to a man standing in the doorway of the
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize him?
Mrs. BAKER. That looks like Billy.
Mr. LIEBELER. That looks like Billy Lovelady?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that man you pointed to is immediately as we face the
picture to the right of the mark "A" in the picture?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And is standing directly against the side of the doorway of
the building---of the
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you. If you don't have anything else you would like
to tell us about this that you think we should know and that I haven't asked
you, I have no other questions at this point.
Mrs. BAKER. Thank you.
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