Mrs. OSWALD. No; it was loose in the book--I really don't remember.
Mr. McKENZIE. Establish what kind of book it was and the size of it.
*Mrs. OSWALD. The size it looked like this size of paper.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was a book something like the reporter is using?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; a legal size paper--it was a legal size notebook--this size.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, the notebook was about the same size as a legal size pad; is that right?
*Mrs. OSWALD [nodding head for an affirmative reply].
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you say anything to Lee when you saw him destroying this book about why he prepared it and why he left it there in the apartment when he went to shoot General Walker?
Mrs. OSWALD. No; I did not. No; I never asked him why he left it in the apartment, why he left his book in the apartment while he went to shoot General Walker. I did not ask him why he left it in the apartment. I asked him what for was he making all these entries in the book and he answered that he wanted to leave a complete record so that all the details would be in it. He told me that these entries consisted of the description of the house of General Walker, the distances, the location, and the distribution of windows in it.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he want to leave this record for?
Mrs. OSWALD. All these details--all these records, that he was writing it either for his own use so that he would know what to do when the time came to shoot General Walker. I am guessing that perhaps he did it to appear to be a brave man in case he were arrested, but that is my supposition. I was so afraid after this attempt on Walker's life that the police might come to the house. I was afraid that there would be evidence in the house such as this book.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Lee about that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say and what did he say?
*Mrs. OSWALD. What did I say?
Mr. LIEBELER. And what did he say?
*Mrs. OSWALD. And what did he say?
Mrs. OSWALD. I told him that it is best not to have this kind of stuff in the house this book.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you tell him that?
Mrs. OSWALD. At the time he was destroying it--he showed me this book after this attempt on Walker's life, and I suggested to him that it would be awfully bad to keep a thing like that in the house.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did he first show it to you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Three days after the attempt--3 days after this attempt, he took the rifle from the house, took it somewhere and buried it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Three days after the attempt?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that he actually took the rifle out of the house and took it away and hid it somewhere?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. No; the day Lee shot at Walker, he buried the rifle because when he came home and told me that he shot at General Walker and I asked him where the rifle was and he said he buried it.
Mr. LIEBELER. He shot at General Walker on April 10, which was on Wednesday.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Wednesday?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; it was on Wednesday.
Mrs. OSWALD. As I remember, it was the weekend--Saturday or Sunday when Lee brought the rifle back home.
Mr. LIEBELER. What weekend following the time he shot at General Walker?
*Mrs. OSWALD. The same weekend of the same week.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had he destroyed the notebook before he brought the rifle back?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long after he brought the rifle back did he destroy the book?
Mrs. OSWALD. He destroyed the book approximately an hour after he brought the rifle home.


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Mr. LIEBELER. After he brought the rifle home, then, he showed you the book?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you said it was not a good idea to keep this book?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And then he burned the book?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him why he had not destroyed the book before he actually went to shoot General Walker?
Mrs. OSWALD. It never came to me, myself, to ask him that question.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see him take the pictures, the photographs, out of the book when he destroyed it?
Mrs. OSWALD. When I saw him burning the book--I'm not positive that he burned the photographs or not with the book. He retained the negatives and he preserved either the photographs themselves or the negatives. I know that they have the photographs and I don't know whether they got the originals or whether they made them from the negatives.
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, when you say "they," Marina, who do you mean by "they?"
Mrs. OSWALD. FBI, Secret Service, and the President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 5, which is a copy of one of the photographs that was found among these effects after the assassination.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does that appear to be one of the photographs about which you were speaking?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; that's one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you absolutely sure about that?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't remember when Lee showed me the picture that it was this.
Mrs. OSWALD. When I was first shown this picture, I remember that there was a license plate number on this car.
Mr. LIEBELER. When Lee showed you the picture, there was a license plate number on the car?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. As shown in Commission Exhibit No. 5; is that right?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you look at this picture you see that there is a black mark on the back of this, do you know what makes that black mark?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; but I think when the Commission showed me this picture the number was there.
Mr. McKENZIE. License plate?
Mrs. OSWALD. I would have remembered this black spot if it were there at the time the Commission showed me this, or the FBI. When the FBI first showed me this photograph I remember that the license plate, the number of the license plate was on this car, was on the photograph.
*Mrs. OSWALD. It had the white and black numbers. There was no black spot that I see on it now. When Lee showed me this photograph there was the number on the license plate on this picture. I would have remembered it if there were a black spot on the back of the car where the license plate would be.
Mr. LIEBELER. The original of this picture, the actual photograph, has a hole through it. That's what makes this black spot.
*Mrs. OSWALD. This is from the negative?
Mr. GREGORY. This picture was made from the original photograph, rather than from a negative?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; it's simply a picture of a picture.
Mrs. OSWALD. When the FBI and Lee showed me this particular picture--
*Mrs. OSWALD. Not this big size.
Mrs. OSWALD. This photograph--it was a smaller size.
Mrs. OSWALD. There was a license plate on this car.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that very clearly?
Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee showed it to me, I remember very distinctly that there was a license plate on this car. When this business about General Walker came up I would have remembered this black spot.


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Mr. LIEBELER. Or the hole?
Mrs. OSWALD. Or the hole in the original--I would have remembered it.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you remember, then, that the license plate was actually on that car when you saw the picture?
Mrs. OSWALD. This black spot is so striking I would have remembered it if it were on the photograph that Lee showed me or the FBI.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's address ourselves also, not just to the black spot but to the possibility that they may have shown you the actual original photograph on which there is no black spot, but which has a hole right through the photograph.
Mrs. OSWALD. There was no hole in the original when they showed it to me I'm positive of it.
Mr. McKENZIE. All right, let me ask her a question.
Mrs. OSWALD. This is the first time I saw a black spot or have heard about a hole in the original photograph.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Why does the Commission not ask me about this?
Mr. McKENZIE. Well, the Commission is asking you about it now, because Mr. Liebeler represents the Commission.
*Mrs. OSWALD. I know it.
Mr. McKENZIE. Let me ask you--when Lee showed you this picture, which is Commission Exhibit No. 5, had it been folded over?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. McKENZIE. At that time did the car that appears in the picture, did it have a hole in the picture?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. McKENZIE. When the FBI or the Secret Service showed you this picture, had it been folded?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. McKENZIE. Who showed you the picture the FBI or the Secret Service or the Commission?
*Mrs. OSWALD. The FBI first and then the Commission.
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, at the time the Commission showed you the picture in Washington, was there a hole shown in the picture where the cat's license plate would be?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't know what happened to this picture, because when the Commission showed me the picture there was not this spot here.
Mrs. OSWALD. If there was a hole, I would have asked them right away why that hole is there or the black spot.
Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record, please.
(Discussion between Mr. McKenzie and Mr. Liebeler to the effect that the picture might have been creased in the process of making a print from the original photograph.)
Mr. McKENZIE. One more question---is this the first time that you have seen the picture when there was a black spot in the back of the automobile?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; the first time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen a picture like this that had a hole in it?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think of anything else about this Walker incident that you haven't already told the Commission that you think we should know that you can remember?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think I have told all I know about it--I can't remember anything else now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem strange to you at the time, Marina, that Lee did make these careful plans, take pictures, and write it up in a notebook, and then when he went out to shoot at General Walker he left all that incriminating evidence fight in the house so that if he had ever been stopped and questioned and if that notebook had been found, it would have clearly indicated that he was the one that shot at General Walker?
Mrs. OSWALD. He was such a person that nothing seems peculiar to me for what he did. I had so many surprises from him that nothing surprised me. He may have wished to appear such a brave man or something.


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Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have the feeling that he really wanted to be caught in connection with the Walker affair?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know how to answer that--maybe yes and maybe no. I couldn't read his mind.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that the picture that he asked you to take when he was holding the rifle and the newspapers, and that he then autographed for June, do you think that was connected with the Walker thing at all?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think so, because it happened just before he went to shoot General Walker. Then, I asked him why he was taking this silly picture and he answered that he simply wanted to send it to the newspaper.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Militant?
*Mrs. OSWALD. The Militant.
Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't attach any significance to what he said at the time, but he added, "That maybe some day June will remember me." He must have had something in his mind--some grandiose plans.
Mr. LIEBELER. You told the Commission that in November 1962, you stayed with Anna Meller and with Mrs. Ford for 2 weeks?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; 1 week.
Mr. LIEBELER. One week with each person?
*Mrs. OSWALD. I think maybe I was 3 days at Anna Meller's house- yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long do you think you were with them altogether?
*Mrs. OSWALD. One week or 10 days.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you also told us that you went to Anna Meller's in a taxicab?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you separated from Lee at any other time in the fall of 1962 except this time?
Mrs. OSWALD. The only time I was separated from Lee, not because we quarreled, but because I lived with Elena Hall in Fort Worth.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you went to Anna Meller's one night in a taxicab?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you bring any of the things for the baby, the furniture or your clothes or things like that to Anna Meller's?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. At no time?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I just take baby and bottle.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about the next day, did you get anything over to the Meller's house the next day?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mrs. OSWALD. No; after a couple of days Anna Meller went and bought some diapers for the baby, then, I wanted to take my things away from Lee and George De Mohrenschildt took me in his car and we got the things from the house.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you take the things then?
Mrs. OSWALD. To Anna Meller's house.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you stay at Anna Meller's house before Mohrenschildt brought the things there?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Two or three days.
Mr. LIEBELER. And how long did you stay at Anna Meller's after De Mohrenschildt brought your things there and before you went to Mrs. Ford's?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Two more days.
Mr. LIEBELER. When De Mohrenschildt came and .took these things, they filled up his whole car almost, didn't they? There were quite a lot of things?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you take these things from Anna Meller's over to the Fords' house?
Mrs. OSWALD. Only the bare necessities.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do with the other things that you had brought to Anna Meller's?
Mrs. OSWALD. They remained at Anna Meller's.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who took the things from Meller's to Ford's?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.


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Mr. LIEBELER. Was it George De Mohrenschildt?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it Mr. Ford or Mrs. Ford?
*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what day it was that De Mohrenschildt moved these things for you, what day of the week?
Mrs. OSWALD. The weekend--probably Sunday.
Mr. LIEBELER. What day did you first go to Anna Meller's; do you remember?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.
*Mrs. OSWALD. About 4 days before.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee know .where you went the night you left him?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did he first find out where you were?
Mrs. OSWALD. George De Mohrenschildt knew that I was at Anna Meller's and .he telephoned Lee, but he did not tell Lee where I was. He asked him to come to his house where I would also be at the time so that we could discuss the things.
Mr. LIEBELER. The day you went to Cake the things to Anna Meller's, De Mohrenschildt went to your apartment in his car; is that right?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was with him?
*Mrs. OSWALD. His wife.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you with him?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, that you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt and George De Mohrenschildt came in the car out to the apartment?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And got these other things?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And left?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Lee there when you came?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What happened when the three of you came to the apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing happened except he was very angry and I took things.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?
*Mrs. OSWALD. He did not want me to leave.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?
*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he talk to De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs. OSWALD. I was collecting things, so I don't know what transpired--I was busy. Lee was helping me to gather the things, because he said he didn't want anything--to take the whole works.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Lee first said that he was going to tear your dresses up and break all the baby things if you left and went away?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; maybe that's George De Mohrenschildt's joke.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's what George De Mohrenschildt told the Commission.
*Mrs. OSWALD. I know it.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think he meant it as a joke when he told it.
*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know.
Mrs. OSWALD. Maybe Lee said that to George De Mohrenschildt. I do not know whether Lee said that to George De Mohrenschildt or not. I was busy gathering the things.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there appear to be an argument or a discussion between, Lee and De Mohrenschildt at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think so--perhaps they were speaking together--talking English and I didn't understand them.
Mr. LIEBELER. How would they usually talk to each other--in Russian or in English?
Mrs. OSWALD. Both Russian and English.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did George Bouhe have anything to do with your leaving Lee this time?